Eikö pelkkä kalmisto tai Alinen ois parempi kun tuommoinen sana joka kuulostaa melko keinotekoiselta?
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Eikö pelkkä kalmisto tai Alinen ois parempi kun tuommoinen sana joka kuulostaa melko keinotekoiselta?
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Originally Posted by Cadwalader
That is a rather simplistic view. Studies on linguistics and demographics clearly rule out the "great migration theory" that was popular in early 20th century. Nowadays, the most commonly accepted theory is the one of divergence: when the southern branch of north-western Finno-Ugric speakers came into contact with the Indo-European proto-Balts and proto-Germans (or possibly proto-Indo-Europeans), they started to adopt more settled ways of life, including agriculture and animal husbandry, more organized forms of leadership and so on. Thus they slowly differed from the the proto-Saami people and formed the Balto-Finnic branch of Uralic languages.
Genetically, the Saami and Balto-Finnic peoples are mostly unrelated, and the orgin of Saami in particular is clouded in mystery. However, linguistic evidence clearly points out that in times long gone, the difference between (what would become) the Saami and Balto-Finnic peoples was insignificant at best.
The part about Saami originally inhabiting most of what is now northern Fennoscandia I can agree with. Actually, in EB's timeframe, the center of Saami culture would not have been in Lapland but in Olonets Karelia! And yes, Saami weren't exactly a warlike people, but they did kick some Finnish, Russian and Scandinavian arse every now and then - Akmeeli in particular was one hell of a warrior.
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Originally Posted by Kagemusha
Let's keep the discussion in English - some people not proficient in Finnish might also have something to say.
I don't think kalmisto or alinen would be any better names, quite the contrary. Kalmisto is just a general word for any place of burial, and the exact meaning of the term alinen is completely dependant on the context. Remember, we are looking for a name that refers to the barrows in Sammallahdenmäki, not just any piles of rocks with human remains under them.
Plus, I don't think kalmisto is enough of an ancient word. It's even used in modern Finnish archeology. Although some of Finnish vocabulary is pretty ancient. For example the word Kuningas... Some Sweboz players may recognise it.
Alinen... Nope, don't know what that means.
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Originally Posted by Thaatu
Kalma is either a native Uralic word, a derivation of *kola (modern Finnish kuolla), or more likely a proto-Germanic loan from *skalman. On these grounds, the word kalmisto was probably used in proto-Finnic times, although I don't know whether the suffix -sto/-stö existed back then. Damned be the library of Lahti for having only one copy of Hakulinen's Suomen kielen rakenne ja kehitys in their storage.
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Originally Posted by Thaatu
It simply means something that is under something.
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Originally Posted by MOT Englanti 4.5 englanti-suomi
As proved by the loan words in Finnish, such as the above-mentioned kuningas and ruhtinas (druxtinaz, or however it was spelled).Quote:
when the southern branch of north-western Finno-Ugric speakers came into contact with the Indo-European proto-Balts and proto-Germans (or possibly proto-Indo-Europeans), they started to adopt more settled ways of life, including agriculture and animal husbandry, more organized forms of leadership and so on.
Well, obviously it comes from the preposition alla, under. Alamaailma, alinen, underworld, with an alternate meaning as e.g. alapuoli, the underside (of a table, eg.)Quote:
Alinen... Nope, don't know what that means.
Vocal gradation (is it gradation?), that is hardcore.Quote:
Astevaihtelun synnyn ajoituksesta ei ole yksimielisyyttä - toiset väittävät sen syntyneen vasta kantasuomalaisella ajalla tai sen jälkeen, toiset ajoittavat sen uralilaiseen kantakieleen, useimmat sinne välille. Harkkoreimpien teorioiden mukaan astevaihtelu olisi alun perin ulottunut jopa vokaaleihin!
I don't recognize the root kalma from any Germanic loans, not sure about Russian but didn't spot it with a quick glance, so it's probably quite old. Could be a Baltic loan, which would already fit in with our timeline (at least it's not a far cry) or even older.Quote:
Plus, I don't think kalmisto is enough of an ancient word.
Edit: skalman? Interesting.
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Originally Posted by The_Mark
As I said, it's a rather wild theory, and almost certainly not a correct one. But being incorrect doesn't make it any less wild.
BTW, there's an additional point about the consonant gradation of the geminate *pp in proto-Finnic: the weak grade wasn't actually *p, but *Pp, thus, the consonant length was something between p and pp. I've understood that EB doesn't use linguist yumbah like Pp but tries to "de-jargonize" them, so I decided to ignore the Pp grade and use p instead. The other option would be to use pp as both the strong and weak grade, but that would be even more wrong.
I thought I was being smart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahju
Damnit! :wall:
Well how about Hiisi? The original meaning of the word was a holy cult place/ place of worship?
Precisely, a place of worship. Not necessarily a place of burial (although these two were often intermingled) and certainly not specifically the barrows of Sammallahdenmäki.
I'm no expert, but especially -sto just somehow doesn't sound very ancient, in the sense of two millennia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahju
Mm, I am under the assumption that suffixes are assimilated from other languages quite slowly, so it might well be quite old. That said, I don't have the slightest clue as to how old it is.
Well, there you have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovejoy
I beg your pardon?