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Neocon now, leftist politicians and their newspapers tried that one here as well, such a nice ring to it, why not just call his party a 'movement', that's the latest.
Really what the hell, his speech was apropiatily vague. He wants to improve relations, and, they could be better. Iraq, what a bout it? You have no role in it but want to be mentioned anyway? Toldyouso?
Any politician who can pack his usual hot air into such a nice speech deserves some applause. ~;)
Well the French do like their pretty balloons. :balloon: :balloon2: :balloon3: (Sorry guys, no white balloon in less :surrender2: counts. It's joke!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
“Maybe we are talking about his neocon ideology? About the fact that in his speech the word "Iraq" was never pronounced (how can one talk about his strategic partnership with the US without speaking of Iraq?). He behaved like a dull vassal. His speech was marvellous, it was like listening Tony Blair five years ago or the most brilliant poetic declarations of Berlusconi at his best.”
“Really what the hell, his speech was appropriately vague. He wants to improve relations, and, they could be better. Iraq, What about it? You have no role in it but want to be mentioned anyway? Toldyouso?”
Welcome in Sarkozy political action!!! He is good at that: speaking platitude and making them as if it is brand new ideas. He is always where cameras are, bigger the audience, better he is… He is good to make announcements by not so good in results…:clown:
Appropriation of others actions is part of his policy and with the help of media, he convinced population he did the job but total denial of involvement when things go wrong.:juggle2:
He is a master in politic…:oops:
I still don’t know (I understand why) he felt to go in the US and kind of apologised for the French decision not to go to war. Chirac was right, France was right for this instance… It should be up to the US present administration to apologise for all the insults and attempting blackmails…:beam:
I forsee that happening.... never.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Having a movement is a nice way of saying taking a dump :toilet:... :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
"I forsee that happening.... never." Well, I had the same feeling... Kind of premonition...:beam:
So, let me get this straight. Brenus, Tristuskhan, you're angry that Sarkozy has made overtures towards the USA, and you think your government should be taking a more aggressive, confrontational position towards the United States? And what exactly is that supposed to accomplish?
I understand being sore over Iraq, but there's an expression in America, maybe it translates... it goes "cutting off your nose to spite your face".
“You're angry that Sarkozy has made overtures towards the USA”: No, I am not. I am angry that he capitulated to US… No, not that, he went to subordinate France to THE US administration which was the centre, the origin of a smear campaign, of insults and lies because France dared to have objections to a military adventure launched on allegations what every body (even the US and UK Secret Services) knew were false…
I don’t mind to say I love US. I do like USA. When I went there I had good contacts, nice trip thanks…
However we speak politic here: Tell me what did the US administration do to improve the situation? Nothing.:no:
“You think your government should be taking a more aggressive, confrontational position towards the United States” No, I don’t support more confrontation. I just have let this present US administration died of natural causes, then we could have feint to ignore what was said on YOUR media.
No French media ever went as far than yours… And all is done like France was the problem…
What a h… Sarkozy had to say to Candy Rice who wanted to punish France? Encore, encore… More, more. He humiliated France, he went to Canossa…
And he did that on my name, on the name of France…:furious3:
I'm angry that Sarkozy made overtures towards Bush and his administration, and I think my governement should have ignored him until you elected a new - hopefully not brainless - president.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Waving and bowing at Bush in every possible occasion pretty much makes us "surrendering monkeys".
A trip to the US to improve relations between our 2 countries is a good thing. A trip to the US to replace Blair as Bush's favorite pupet isn't.
Here's a french expression that describes very well what we think Sarko did, it's "baisser son froc et se pencher en avant". Maybe it translates. Maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Sarko's attitude is much for us what a... say Estonian president going to Moskow and apologising for his countrie's attitudes in 1989 would be for someone in Estonia. Soooorry we were sooooo wrong to be right and you were so right to lie, blackmail and decieve in order to fulfill your imperial desires. Can you just forgive us for having kept our independance of thoughts, please?
But he didn't apologize. He didn't captiulate. He didn't say one word of reversing France's foreign policies toward Iraq. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: At a certain point in time, friends have to swallow the bile and just simply agree to disagree and move on. That is how I take Sarkozy's overtures. I don't think for one minute he's reversing your country's position, and I certainly don't take him for an apologist. Nor do I think are any other Americans that have a brain and actually watch the telecasts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
As to who should apologize to whom first, let me be the first. I am sorry that my country and my countrymen were so small-minded as we have been. I do not think you are 'surrender monkeys', nor do I think you were beholden to join us on a military campaign that NATO didn't authorize. I DO think your president could have voiced his opposition in more tactful ways, but I don't think it was anything out of bounds.
I think the French should apologize for so rudely pointing out our Emperor's lack of clothing.
To our French responders: Thanks. I see. Your approach is not unlike the US's view toward Cuba: "Just wait 'til "HE" is gone. Then we'll talk."
If you ask me they should apoligise for not doing it enough, but hey.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
I am a bit surprised by the lingo here, 'capitulating'? 'surrender'? Waiting for 'treason' here. France finally sets her nose in the right direction after been rubbing up Russia forever, look at current russia. 'There should not be only one', well then stop trying to force it into isolation because that serves nobody good. This is bigger then your baguette Sarkozy understands that.
Surrendering monkies and terms of that ilk in describing the french are thrown around far to easily. In the circle I run in, most are aware of the French's successful participation in our revolution. Had the French not defeated the english in chesapeake bay and blocked cornwallis the outcome might have been different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
The overall logistical hardship France posed to England with its participation on the States side cant be underestimated. Conversely, U.S. participation in the subsequent world wars is viewed largely as a remunneration event (perhaps not at the time of the occurance, but again in my current circle of Gen X'ers).
My preference would have been for him not to come at all and allow the status quo to remain. I still contend its a no loose for either side as the relationship wont change dramatically anyway. The only gamble is Sarkoszy domestic perception from citizens like yourself, which on the surface seems to be driven by dislike of Bush, not the U.S.
Look closely at the visit and what was said and or committed, he extended a hand to the U.S. as a nation, understanding full well Bush is a lame duck and a moderate government is forthcoming. Its savvy on his part, assuming he wants in on future U.S. foriegn policy.
Does that make him the latest lap dog? Maybe, but i suspect the move was to reestablish a willingness by France to be less antagonistic publically, to a perceived moderating US political landscape. Mr Bush had nothing to gain by it, it just strikes me as a minimal investment for a potential future dividend.
You forgot the “cheese eating” part. When I think of this phrase I consider it in an historical context much like you; however our conclusions are different. I see a “France” (as a whole mind you, not its people) which is a brie consuming capitulating primate version of its former self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Beginning with its final defeat at the hands of the British and relative impotence when compared to us colonials, their leadership has acted like a petulant child, actively seeking to counter Anglo-American influence. Are they fighting *for* France or against us? It doesn’t help that I perceive their involvement in the EU as another attempt to be the regional hegemon. Instead of seeking to lead Europe they want to dominate it.
France and other socialistic countries in Europe are set to wither away and can’t even replace their native populations. It really burns me that there is so much potential and history there which isn’t being used to build a future. Keep in mind that while many use that phrase to refer to the post WW II era, some of us look farther back than that.
In the context of its historical empire perhaps your right, I wont dispute it on that basis but in the modern context of world power and influence which seems to be tied into economic prowess, military clout, and influence in international issues, france is hardly a limping vagabond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Ah, but there in lies the lack of generosity in your observation, they were the front for two modern world wars, yet somehow have managed to maintain the indentity as "french" I admire thier fortitude. Thier leadership, prior to mr sarkozy had all been reared in a diplomatic era that had circumsized thier prior empire and contributions to the world order.Quote:
Beginning with its final defeat at the hands of the British and relative impotence when compared to us colonials, their leadership has acted like a petulant child, actively seeking to counter Anglo-American influence.
Sarkozy seems to be a forward thinker at first blush, Chirac had his go at the transit unions as well and it didnt fly so he retired into the old role of being the counter weight to US/UK military influence. I hardly found it threatening, none the less beating a dead horse does seem to support your "petulant child" comment.
France dosent have the economic clout to dominate/lead the EU, it needs partners. Now maybe thats what Mr Sarkozy is attempting? bolster his own position with a friendly U.S. ? Would it make his task easier if he didnt have a vocal critic in washington? I dont know, I suspect the EU you see today is the same one you will see 20 years from now, very little will change.Quote:
Are they fighting *for* France or against us? It doesn’t help that I perceive their involvement in the EU as another attempt to be the regional hegemon. Instead of seeking to lead Europe they want to dominate it.
Well isnt that what Sarkozy is attempting to prevent? By adjusting social spending programs on pensions he is effectively attempting to stave off the withering, now if they can just assimilate all thier prior colonial holdings, and allow them to be "french" the tax base should thrive.Quote:
France and other socialistic countries in Europe are set to wither away and can’t even replace their native populations. It really burns me that there is so much potential and history there which isn’t being used to build a future. Keep in mind that while many use that phrase to refer to the post WW II era, some of us look farther back than that.
A certain type of lawyer found a profession and the USA isn't exactly clean of those. Some benefit from a failing system because it's failure is profitable if it keeps going down. France and many other european countries sre no socialistic nations it are failed ideas, still highly succesfull when working around it though and only then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Could this be somehow tied to Angela Markel and her attempts to improve US-German relations?
Maybe Sarkozy doesn't want France to fall behind in that regard, if better relations mean more business, trade etc.
For exmple there is a rivalry between the german and the french division of Airbus, now if either of them could conince the US to make some technology exchange or whatever, that would certainly strengthen their position which may result in more workplaces, etc.
Maybe also because the UK is drifting toward the continent creating a bit of a vacuum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
If the French wanted to catch up on technology they would most likely increase their industrial espionage.
Interesting and telling that Mr. Sarkozy's mission here was called Operation Seduction...
I my view, the French president didn't come here to surrender, but to conquer. He knows we Americans have never been able to resist romantic men from the City of Love. Honestly, even I melted just reading that speech! Ah, Sarkozy... :sweetheart:
I find it highly unlikely he actually wants to embroil France in the US's misadventures overseas. That would be why he didn't mention Iraq - he knows full well it was a mistake, and that the French people know it was a mistake, and that most Americans know it too. He threw in a bit about support for our goals with regards to Iran, because that doesn't really cost him anything. He can agree to our goals without actually supporting our methods.
His real objective was probably to generate warm feelings towards France in the American people (not necessarily the leadership) so that we would support French positions on other global issues - most notably climate change and energy. America, you have always been great at meeting enormous challenges, Sarkozy says. Why not stand as the world leader in meeting these challenges as well? How can we resist such overtures?
So I actually support what he's doing, because frankly, I want my country supporting Europe and the rest of the world in efforts to halt global warming and develop renewable energy sources. We've wasted enough time with a costly war on terror that doesn't address the root causes of modern conflicts. I also don't think it's wise to wait until Mr. Bush is out of office - let's do what we can now, and once he's gone we can do even more.
There's another saying we have here in the States: You catch more bees with honey than you do with a shotgun.
I'm cheering for Mr. Sarkozy and Operation Seduction to succeed. :2thumbsup:
1. ChinaQuote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
2. Incendiary white phosporous aimed at a bee hive at point blank range.
I like the operation seduction angle though. :2thumbsup:
Trust the French to flatter the yanks about the size of their challenges. Remember, it's not the size of the challenge one has that matters, but how one copes with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
"Copes with it" implies that a problem exists. That wasn't Freudian was it? :drummer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Sarkozy: China, je t'aime
Full storyQuote:
Sarkozy visit marks new phase in relations
By Liu Jiansheng (China Daily)
Updated: 2007-11-26 07:08
French President Nicolas Sarkozy arrived in China yesterday, starting his three-day visit to the country. This is an extremely important part of a series of major diplomatic moves the new French head of state plans to take. Sarkozy's China trip will mark the beginning of a new phase in the development of the all-round strategic partnership between China and France.
Since Sarkozy took office, his foreign policy adjustments have shown the characteristic of succession mixed with innovation. The country's independent and self-determined foreign policy is made to protect France's national interests. The country's foreign policy, based on a multi-polar world view and ethnic diversity, has not changed.
The long-term strategic goal of Sarkozy's new foreign policy is to elevate the country's economic and trade interests so as to make the country stronger amid globalization. Needless to say, France will continue to carry out its foreign policy with the European Union as its strategic prop, lock on to the direction of advancing European integration, push forward the multi-polarization of the world, attach importance to mutual respect and dialogue between different civilizations and play a proactive and unique role in maintaining world peace.
The China-France partnership is based on expansive political consensus, common economic interests, culture of mutual understanding and growing mutual confidence.
The two countries maintain identical or similar standings on a range of critical international issues. In May 1997, China and France signed a "comprehensive partnership" document. In 2004, the two nations signed another document sealing a "comprehensive strategic partnership" between them during President Hu Jintao's visit to France, elevating bilateral relations to a new high.
Aaahh...that's my boy. 20bn euros. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Sarkozy wins China 20bn euro deal
French industrialists visiting China with President Nicolas Sarkozy say they have finalised trade deals worth almost 20bn euros ($30bn; £14.5bn).
These include a delivery of 160 Airbus passenger planes to the value of about 10bn euros.
And state-owned French energy firm Areva said it had signed a contract to build two nuclear reactors in China.
The announcements came as Mr Sarkozy held a second meeting with his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao.
"The total amount of these contracts has never been matched before," he told the Chinese president as they met in Beijing's Great Hall of the People.
So how much $ did US get in trade deals?
Despite the poor grammar I assume there's a point there. Could you elaborate? What's more important is the percentage of French GNP that this deal accounted for. Anyone know?