Re: All you History Majors (Help Please)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract
On your second point, the poll tax, otherwise known as Jaziya, you label it as a showcase of "tolerance". Jaziya is not a concept, nor a measure of tolerance. It is, in all possible definition, a penalty demanded from muslim overlords in "ensuring protection" for those who paid. A threat. Extortion.
Well, I have not said that Jaziya is a "showcase of" tolerance, but that it is a relatively tolerant measure - to be able to stick to my faith and customs for a certain fee, no matter how high it was. Yes, it is an extortion. Yes it is a blackmail. Yes, it is a totally unacceptable discrimination by modern standards. But consider other options of that times - either change your faith or die. For a reference to usual European practice in these matters I would point out to the Chronicles by Gregory of Tours (on mass slaughtering of christian heretics (Arians), jews and pagans in Meroveic France).
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract
Today, countries like Syria, Iraq and Iran are predominantly muslim. Obviously for a reason, and not because uncle Harry accidentally caused a country with Zoroastrian roots to turn into a predominantly Shi'ite state when he masturbated in the shower... :smash:
I would just say it in this way: Today, countries like Syria, Iraq and Iran are predominantly muslim (while 18th century Europe was completely christian). Obviously for a reason... This is the difference between our arguments, Persian Cataphract, in the emphasis we put somewhere and in the significance we ascribe to certain events. Both of us have good reasons for it and apparently neither will convince the other completely.
You are a undisputed authority in this community on Iranian history, but I think that your pre-formed judgements and the fervor with which they are presented does not serve your overall argument well. No offense itended. Sincerely, Marvin:yes:
Re: All you History Majors (Help Please)
Quote:
Originally Posted by V.T. Marvin
(while 18th century Europe was completely christian).
Which isn't true at all either. Yes Europe was predominantly Christian (and still is today), but it never has been completely or even close to completely Christian. Jews and even Muslims did live in Europe, and especially the Jews did make up a significant percentage of the total people in Europe.
Re: All you History Majors (Help Please)
Ad Tellos Athenaios
You are quite right Tellos, but I have already made this reservation in my post from 11-24-2007, 18:00 - "in lets say 18th century (disregarding areas under Ottoman rule) Europe was TOTALLY christianized (with the obvious exception of the Jews) and (as far as I know) NOT A SINGLE "pagan" religious enclave have survived there." (emphasis added) so I did not felt it as necessary to repeat this disclaimer again.
Ad Persian Cataphract
Just one more comment. You have written yourself has on 11-22-2007, 20:26 that "The caliphate itself is not the stereotypical image of a theocracy (How regal it may have been), but many times, where science and the arts flourished, it retained quite a secular nature, especially during the "Golden Age" of the thoroughly Persianized Abbasids." (emphasis added) What is interesting for me is how the Abbasid caliphate has become "thoroughly Persianized". Apparently because lots of Persians did willy-nilly convert, thus become "citizens" of muslim Umma, thus were able to retain their positions in the state apparatus, thus unknowlingly secured some sort of cultural continuity which in the end have Persianized the caliphate.
Did terrible atrocities happen in the process? Yes they did! Was forcing people to convert or pay a poll tax morally wrong? Yes it was! I am not denying that. But I do not see why these atrocities and wrong things should be regarded as WORSE than any other. Benign conquerors like Cyrus the Great seems to be a rare exception rather than a rule in world history. Sad indeed, but true.
