Imperial Diet VII

Hans von Bavaria has been silent, but now feels that he should put forth his opinion on 4.3:

With all due respect to the Kaiser, I believe 4.3 will bring chaos to the Reich. It can just as easily be a route for, say, power hungry electors and vengeful Emperors to depose a noble Duke. The bad effects outweigh the good.

I also disagree with Herr Matthias's assessment of 4.4. We will be dead and our sons will be dead, and many of their sons will be old men by the time we need to take the last Byzantine city. There is plenty of time.

Lords, I have here the new arrangements for Franconia, which I shall now make public.

Three cities remain in our control - they are the capital Frankfurt, Hamburg, and Magdeburg. Frankfurt shall be under my control. Magdeburg will continue to have Dieter Bresch as her able Count. Hamburg shall be run by the hero returning from Outremer, Dieter von Kassel.

Four cities are incorporated yet not under our control. As they return under our power, Thorn shall be given to Tancred von Tyrolia, Stettin to Fritz von Kastilien, and Krakow to Lukas Godwinson. Breslau shall remain under my authority while there is no one else to govern it.

Also, as I shall now take command of the Prinz's Army, the First Franconian Household Army, known as the Prussian Army, shall be commanded by my brother Fritz von Kastilien. It shall be stationed to defend Hamburg from the north and east. The Second Franconian Household Army, or the Saxon Army, shall be commanded by Dieter Bresch. Its zone of control shall be Magdeburg and east.

With the Prinz's Army, I shall attempt to bring our borders back to our normal strength as well as assist any Duchy that is in dire need.

Thank you.

My Kasier I truly wish that I had the same starry eyed optimism about the pure and honest motives of the Exterminators of Rome that you have managed to find, but I see the world as it is. The Byzantines lured the Reich into a hideously unfavorable agreement by corrupting our then Kaiser, my brother. When we had entangled ourselves too deeply to escape they murdered our Emperor, my brother, your brilliant 'I have other suspects' rebuttal aside, and they kidnapped Matthias Steffen as the first steps in their plan to destroy us. Subsequently they have stolen the Reich's treasury and exterminated several German cities. The idea that they can be defended in these very chambers, even somehow held up as more pure than we, is repugnant and intolerable.

It was only the valiant and necessary actions of a few, in defiance of you and your insistence on carrying forward the mad plan of Unification, which prevented the Reich from falling, in the space of a few bare years, from the greatest nation of Europe to the lapdog of the Greeks. I myself was unable to take that action, trapped as I was by my foolishly optimistic loyalty to you, my Kaiser. Seeing the deaths of tens of thousands of my fellow Germans in the years since has washed away my stupidity. I regret to see that you have not yet been cleansed.

In any event I note that again you do not dispute the fact that Jan von Hamburg, your fellow in supporting the Unification, returned to the Reich with the sole goal of killing his fellow Germans. In that he succeeded beyond any scope he might have imagined, as well over a hundred thousand German souls fled this mortal coil at his instigation.

That he or his actions could be defended is similarly astonishing to the reverence with which you still speak of the Byzantines. Hapsburg's mindless statements can be excused as his inexperience, for yours... I will refuse to speculate out of respect for the office you hold.

Prinz Peter, your redistribution of territories appears quite ideal, however as I have conceded my failures in the governance of Stettin it may be best to assign me elsewhere. I will discuss the matter with you personally at some later date.

:egypt:

OOC: Just as an FYI, Econ, I know Fritz isn't 'right' but his version of events, setting aside OOC information, matches what a good Luthern with his knowledge would think, I believe. Plus it's much, much more fun this way. :laugh4:

One further note, regarding CA 14.4, if nothing else it will stand as a public declaration of our intent to redeem ourselves against our greatest foes. The time frame is so large it may well be that none of us here live to see it accomplished, so I do not believe it will affect, in any way, the funding or commission of our other wars and reclamations of territory.

:egypt:

I will concede your points, Fritz, but leave Jan von Hamburg at peace. He returned to defend those loyal to the Reich, as did Elberhard and Dieter according to my assumptions. Let him rest in peace!

Those who will not rest in peace, are the Byzantines. What is in the past is over, do not cast the finger of blame any more. We are all to blame.

We shall drive them into the Black Sea! The waters will be choked with purple armor and red blood, and with their deaths prosperity shall return.

Perhaps this:

If a Byzantine held city is a former part of the Riech then the richest Greeks will have their assets siezed, and be made examples (OOC: Sacked, possible exception Rome) all other Greek cities are to be occupied with as little destruction as possible to show our moral superiority. With Possibility the same type of agreement on the French Front as well?

Fritz von Kastilien stands with a momentary look of pain.

I would warn electors from believing that the sack of a formerly German city can be limited to damaging only it's occupiers. This sounds quite promising and even just, but it works quite differently. I would suggest nearly the reverse, that we peacefully occupy the territories which were formerly owned and still have large German populations while sacking those cities in which the perfidious foe alone lives.

If we are to demonstrate moral superiority, however, we should, as suggested in the CA, refrain from sacking any of their cities.

:egypt:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stuperman

With Possibility the same type of agreement on the French Front as well?

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Count Erlach, the French will get no quarters from me, whatever wrath I might incur in those chambers...

It is good to see a change in ehaviour Fritz, I was shocked to discover the news of Stettin being sacked by yourself and it is nice to know that such atrocities will not take place again, at least by you. We do not need to take venegence on any citizens, especially not our own. War is a soldiers proffesion and they should be punished for any wrong-doings, not innocent bystanders.

Andreas waits for a lull in the conversation about the start of the Cataclysm, then rises and clears his throat. He has a paper in front of him, and as he talks it is obvious he is reciting a speech from it.

Excuse me, fellow Electors. I have just recently been honored with the responsibility to make a list of questions for our candidates for Chancelor. A few days hence, this list will be used to interview them, enabling the Electors to make an informed decision for who should lead the Reich. Should you have any questions in mind for one or both candidates, please inform me.

Looking nervous at what kind of reaction his speech might engender, Andreas sits down.

Dieter is sitting in his chair rubbing his temples. It is clear he is under the weather. For what seems like an eternity, he finally speaks when he gets enough saliva in his mouth to wet it.

Now we're attempting to legislate morality? Didn't Jan von Hamburg try that once at the 1260 Diet? It didn't work then and I don't think it would work now.

No, take the sacking and exterminating clauses out of 14.4. Let us make those decisions for ourselves. Like we even need a peace of paper to demonstrate our moral superiority. Who are we trying to convince that we're superior to the Greeks? Ourselves?

In fact, take the timetable out of 14.4 as well. Wars on timetables never work out well. If we wish to legislate this war against the Greeks, lets at least do it through edicts which are more... measured.

Come to think of it, there is no real reason for 14.4... at all. None. We're already at war with the Greeks so it is really kind of redundant once you take out the hamstringing clauses.

I say that every Duke/King with Greek territories in their areas of responsibility should put forth edicts to take Greek settlements this term, if they want to. What happens to those settlements is more up to the Lords who will govern them.

Alexander Luther:

*softly chuckling*

Young von Essen, just because we are at war with a country does not mean that we automatically finish it off. Look at France, Poland, Hungary, Sicily, Egypt, and Venice. Venice especially. We've been fighting against these people since Sigismund der Stolze was Chancellor. We let 'em up after we knocked them off the Adriatic, and look what happens.

The Byzantines do not deserve this type of leniency. They must be eliminated.

Elberhard: But of course, Dieter von Essen - I see now you are right. We must legislate amorality! We must let our generals run freely around, exterminating at will like beasts! Damn it, man - why stay in Outremer and serve the cross? Go further east and find some of those @#$%^&!!!ing Mongols to serve. I think you would find their way of warfare more to your taste!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Note 14.4 does not require occupation, so no one will be forced to pick up chivalry points. Nor does it rule out execution of prisoners, so generals fighting Byzantines can still easily acquire dread points.

It is not a matter of requiring a piece of paper to show our moral superiority over the Byzantines. It is a matter of being moral. If we slaughter civilians - unarmed men, women and children - then we are are committing a crime so foul, where we stand in relation to the Byzantines, the Mongols or anyone else is irrelevant. We are going to hell, whether alone or in their company.

Jan von Hamburg only failed in 1260 because the flower of chivalry was waning in the Reich. I had hoped that the blood and chaos of the cataclysm might bring us back on a more righteous and ordered path. Luther and I reached an accommodation that we believed could satisfy both those like him who earnestly desire the anhilation of Byzantim and those like myself who are keen that we observe the most minimum standard of decency. If we all wish to run off like wolves, and fight our own little wars, then we are not a united Reich that aspires to lead Christiandom. We are just a gaggle of self-serving warlords.

As for Fritz's absurd statement that Jan von Hamburg came back to the Reich because he wanted to kill Germans, Jan came back to uphold the rule of law. Suppose villains comes into your neighbour's house and try to kill him, to steal his possessions. Would you do your duty and come to your neighbour's aid? If yes, then beware! For Fritz von Kastilien would accuse you of just wanting to kill Germans! Jan started no war. War was started by Hummel and then by Dietrich. Jan marched only to defend the rightful Duke of Swabia.

And for all his attempted re-invention of history, Fritz also knows that the war with Byzantium was started by the sack of Constantinople - painful as admitting that culpability may be to many here. Much easier to forget about history, to blame outside "corruption", to defame the dead, even to malign our own Kaisers than to accept that we too are not without sin.

Dieter comes back into the Diet just in time to feel the stinging rebuke from the Kaiser.

My Kaiser, I fear you misunderstand me. I am not the sort to exterminate. I do however sometimes see the necessity to sack. We need money. And to sign something that "mandates" that we give up money we need seems unwise.

But I also hesitate at telling others what to do. I rather try to lead by example. I follow the chivalrous path because it feels right and I serve the Lord. Others may feel differently. Who am I to tell them what to do? I will live my life the best I can. If someone happens to draw inspiration out of that, that is great.

But I fear we get in trouble when we dictate through laws what people can and can not do.

With all due respect, I think you are too used to arguing with your political opponents. Not everyone who disagrees with you is automatically a butcher.

I don't have to prove my morality to you or anyone by signing a piece of paper. I've earned it through my actions on the battlefield! (OOC: has fair-in-rule trait)

Fearing going too far, Dieter sits.

Alexander Luther:

Essen, do you want the Byzantines gone or not?

Of course I do. But I rather leave tactical and strategic decisions to the men on the ground. The Dukes and King have a better view of their corner of the war and can make decisions that are right for their situation. Trust in them to put forth edicts that will dictate measured and appropriate moves that fit with our available resources.

I'm a soldier and an officer. I know first hand that war is better fought by giving a measure of initiative to your local commanders. Study the Austrian front and what has gone on there for the last few years and you will see a good example. Duke Arnold was given command of the area, he delegated to local lords, who then delegated farther down. Central decisions were made from up high but they took local considerations into account.

Your CA threatens that. It basically legislates war with no flexibility. Just let us fight the war and support edicts that direct us towards recapturing territory.

If you are so concerned with the Reich fighting the Byzantines Father Luther, I suggest you join the army and help us fight them!

Dieter pounds the table to make his point.

Alexander Luther:

Do not lecture me on how to fight a war. I have seen as many campaigns drawn up as you. All that this CA does is say that Byzantium must cease to exist by 1500. That's it.

If you want to see things done in detail, then I suggest you use your personal Edict and actually do something about it.

Oh and how much actual fighting have you done Father Luther?

Dieter points at his scar.

Unlike you, I have actually been fighting for the Reich. Like all of the other nobles here. Your just a spectator.

Hell, rumor has it that you ran like a scared little girl from Bern.

Speaking of Bern, how many Byzantines were there anyways? Oh wait, there weren't any!

You were too busy preaching war against Catholics to be bothered fighting the Orthodox.

So don't come in here and lecture soldiers how to fight a war. I'm only 16 and I've fought more war than you've watched from the sidelines.

As for my edict, I will not use it for such a thing. It is Duke Arnold's decision on what settlements get taken in Austria and it is only proper that such a decision be left to him, since he is Duke of that realm. When he returns, he will tell us what we are retaking and when. If he needs my edict to support his strategy, then I will gladly give it.

The same for Outremer. King Matthias is in a far better position to know what settlements to take back than I am. I would not dare to be so presumptuous in second-guessing him.

So Father Luther, sit back, and watch the proceedings. Soon you'll be gone and we can go about the business of actually governing without having to worry about our proceedings being colored by your religious fanaticism.

Elberhard: Essen, it is you who misunderstand me. I have not called you a butcher or chastised you for wanting to exterminate anyone. I am criticising your absurd view that laws should not tell people what they should or should not do. What the @#$%^&!!! else does a law do?

What would your laws look like?

Thou shalt not murder.

Well, ok, if you really want to, I guess that would be fine.

But I really, really hope you don't and instead are inspired by the radiant light that shines out of my arse!

YOU may not tell people what to do. But the Diet does. Our armies are OUR armies. They are not those of the generals who happen to command them. If they slaughter and rape, then the Reich slaughters and rapes. And we, the Diet, bear full moral responsibility for what is done by our soldiers, in our name and with our florins.

And for @#$%^&!!!s sake stop taking about pieces of paper that prove morality or I am going to have to add them to my copies of Fritz's proclamation in the smallest room of the Diet. We are talking about Edicts and Charter Amendments here, not pieces of paper. If you dismiss them as mere pieces of paper, then go back to the Tavern and leave the legislation to men who respect it for the sacred authority it embodies!

Oh, @#$%^&!!! it. I am through with this. I am off to the Tavern myself.

Satisfied that he just gave the uppity priest a whumpin, Dieter realized that arguing with the Kaiser would be pointless.

You hear Dieter muttering something about "well he can just shove his pieces of paper up his arse then..."as he heads to the tavern.

Alexander Luther:

How fascinating. I am lectured by an uneducated little brat that thinks just because he can use a sword that his opinion is infinitely more valuable than a man whose life has been devoted to studying God and trying to do what he thinks is right.

Do not trivialize the Greeks. They are filthy traitors who would stab their own mothers in the back if they could get some more money about it. Every last declaration, proclamation, Edict, Amendment, and person that professes their eventual downfall will help us win this most righteous of wars.

My Kaiser I presume we are all to be thankful that you do not possess the same sense of justice you credit to von Hamburg, else Luther and Peter would be at the point of your sword and the Reich would once again be burning from end to end. Impugn Dietrich von Dassel all you like, but at a time when every warrior in the Reich was needed against our enemies two men raised armies and attacked a German who was keeping the peace inside a German city. As a direct result of that action over a hundred thousand citizens of the Reich died. You may wish to play favorites on which side is to blame, you may even attempt to dodge any blame yourself, but history is not so kind.

Furthermore the assassination of our Kaiser by the Byzantines clearly presaged the necessary sack of Constantinople. If the Byzantines had not been disorganized by that strike then surely every city in the Reich would have already gotten the same treatment they gave Rome.

You show loyalty to your friends, Elberhard, but you show little else. Jan, Dietrich, and Hummel are suffering the judgement of history. Father Luther has stood up like a man and accepted the consequences of his actions, as have I, as has Peter. I have yet to see that courage out of you.

That being said, it wearies me to incessantly dispute your fawning worship of the man who slew more Germans than even the Greeks have. I have more important things to discuss, and so I will leave the matter lying in the gutter you drug it down into.

:egypt:

Andreas stands to address the Diet.

Fellow Electors, I would like to propose my Edict for this session. As many of you know, the shape of Outremer has been permanantly changed. I do not mean by Byzantine conquests, for those will soon be reversed. I mean by the gifting of two of it's old settlements, Allepo and Damascus, to our English allies. They were given in good faith, and I doubt any of us would like to take them back from allies loyal to us through all our recent troubles.

As such, I wish to propose Edict 14.1.

Edict 14.1 The city of Nikosia will be conquered by the Reich.

Given the permanant gift of two Outremer settlements to England, we will eventually need to take two more to bring Outremer to it's original plan of six settlements. I think Nikosia is a perfect replacement for one of the two settlements.

As an Island, Nikosia is relatively safe from Greek attack. As a Castle it will be able to supply troops for the protection of Outremer. Better yet, it is in a perfect position to attack by see the Greeks in Anatolia, land forces on the Levant to defend other Outremer settlements (including the English ones), or even strike at Egypt on the odd chance they threaten the Pope at Jerusalem.

I know that at this point it seems unlikely that Outremer will agian be on the advance, but this is only temporary. Through the expert leadership of King Matthias Outremer will eventually reach it's old size. I would like Nikosia to be one of it's two new settlements.

Thank you for listening.

Andreas sits back down.

Matthias speaks.

I will second Edict 14.1.

Cyprus would be a very useful addition to Outremer. During the Cataclysm there was talk of falling back there when the Kaiser left. It would serve us well, as a source of reinforcement or, God forbid, a final redoubt.

The proximity of the island to Acre, and God willing, Antioch and Adana, would allow a small fleet to shuttle over a large army in multiple trips.

Hugo stands, his red-cross tabard all-cleaned up from te dust of his travels

I second Edict 14.1.

Having fought in the Levant before, I can assure you that holding Cyprus is a stepping stone to acquiring many more territories.

It provides a training ground, helps our men get used to the warm climate, and can serve as a naval base for controling the waters of the Eastern Mediterranean Sea.

It is truly the naval lock of that region.

Nodding to Matthias Steffen and Andreas von Salzgitter, Hugo sits back down.

I too second Edict 14.1.

edit: blast, tristan beat me.

Reading a parchment while entering the Diet Chamber, the Duke is now in his usual attire of complete Obsidian Full Plate Armour.

Once having completely read through the note he looks up...frowns at the still destroyed desk of the Imperial scribe.

With a clear look of disgust he scans the attending servants and spy's the pageboy he had flipped the coin to some days ago...

...his black steel encased finger points at the young man and then directly in front of Duke present position.

It's clear what is about to happen.

After a few quiet words to a sheet white pageboy, he dutifully sprints from the Chamber.

I see there has been a few "issues" raised while I've been away. Would anyone care to ask me a direct question...

moving to take a seat the Dread Duke makes clear eye contact with Dieter Bresch before taking a seat.

OOC: lol Dieter and Arnold are both in two places at the same time, never mind :clown:

Dieter returns the stare with no sign of emotion at all.

It is good to see you have returned, mein Duke

the last two words were said patronisingly

The new crusader, Andreas, is collecting a list of questions from all the electors to produce to Fritz. Oh, and I believe you may be contemplating running for Chancellor as well? In that case you may be asked a few questions though I do not know if you will be taken seriously.

OOC: I just got back so it's a little strange being in the Tavern and here :laugh4:


Taking stock of Dieter's comments the Duke continues to lean back in his chair.

Bresch, I'm not sure why you're deliberately trying to goad me but you're certainly doing a bad job of it, by asking some of the stupidest £$%ing questions I've heard in a long time.

Paraphrasing Dieter

"You believe I maybe contemplating running for Chancellor?"

Shaking his head at the question the Duke leans over to Grom and a few of his retinue to pass a comment privately between then. The boisterous laughter clearly indicates a joke of some humor was made at someone's expense.

That choice of words seemed to be the only ones suited to represent you indecisiveness that I have seen. I am not trying to goad you, merely speaking my mind.