Backroom is closed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Here at the Org, senior membership is not a prequisite for such things, although it can help bring people to the notice of admins who decide such things - Banquo's Ghost was a lowly member when he became a Backroom moderator, and no-one can quibble with his promotion to staff.

---

Just for the record, I had been made a Senior Member prior to being volunteered for the tea-towel. The interval did seem short, I agree - barely had I started leafing through the Senior Member's Stack of Porn before they took it away again and made me work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Just for the record, I had been made a Senior Member prior to being volunteered for the tea-towel. The interval did seem short, I agree - barely had I started leafing through the Senior Member's Stack of Porn before they took it away again and made me work.

---

Pardon my mistake then. Do moderators get a better class of porn in the office? Or does it depend on where they work? Ie. Frontroom moderators can flick through their compendium of the Babe Thread, while Backroom moderators can enjoy their collection of pics from the Hunk Thread.

I'm so happy that I'm neither a member nor a senior member.

:sweatdrop:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

I'm so happy that I'm neither a member nor a senior member.

:sweatdrop:

---

:inquisitive:

What the!? What's "Clan?" I thought this clan thing died a long time ago. I've been checking it out and it seems to be outdated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shogun

:inquisitive:

What the!? What's "Clan?" I thought this clan thing died a long time ago. I've been checking it out and it seems to be outdated.

---

In the begining the Org was a hardcore MP site. If you didnt MP or belong to a clan you were run out of town.

Basically IA is a relic. :laugh4:

I've been called worse. :laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Just for the record, I had been made a Senior Member prior to being volunteered for the tea-towel. The interval did seem short, I agree - barely had I started leafing through the Senior Member's Stack of Porn before they took it away again and made me work.

---

Reading through this again, can you reveal who this Senior Member is, who's generously shared his Stack of Porn with the other Senior Members?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Reading through this again, can you reveal who this Senior Member is, who's generously shared his Stack of Porn with the other Senior Members?

---

:laugh4:

His name is a closely guarded secret. I've already committed treason by accidentally putting an apostrophe in the right place, thus revealing there is such a person.

:wink3:

Wouldn't it be prudent to prune the backroom to something more "reasonable" size like 50 pages. There's quite a lot of space being taken up.

I take TosaInu's "what do members want?" query as a request for discussion also.

At various times, since the release of Shogun:totalwar, the org has had post-count-related promotions, changing avatars, and badges (as well as none at all, in the beginning); we've been lightly moderated by a couple of Admins, heavily Moderated by a large crew of staff, and not moderated at all.

Most of the changes have been driven by 3 things:
1) forum software flexibility
2) security and privacy concerns
3) member preference

Thanks to TosaInu, we have available very flexible forum software now with vBulletin. It is enormously modifiable, and the software devs and customers interact intensively to find new and better tweaks to serve customer's customization needs, so no 2 vBulletin sites look or behave the same. Again thanks to TosaInu, this site has been tweaked with those 3 factors above in mind.

We'll be keeping this software for a couple more years, so item #1 is covered.

Security and privacy concerns (item #2) won't be discounted as long as TosaInu is Admin, nor indeed as long as we're hosted cost-free by UGO networks, who naturally want to keep their sites, networks, and servers free of bots, malicious software, denial-of-service attacks, and lawsuits.

Which leaves #3, member preference.

"What do members want?"

For me, I want:

A place, not directly affiliated with a company; rather one run by product users, for product users (in this case: totalwar game buyers/players) where I can:

-solve a product-related problem I might be having;
-read tips and tricks other users have used;
-read and evaluate suggested product improvements (mods);
-easily find and download user-made product enhancements
-in between product usage(s), pass the time with other users, telling stories, and discussing current events
-do all the above, without being distracted by taunts and ridicule for having asked, for the 40 thousandth time, the same question that's been asked since 6 years ago. Get that question cheerfully and helpfully answered. Quickly.

We mostly, in my opinion, have that now.

What would I change?

My inclination or instinct would be to ditch staff and rankings altogether. Make us all the same. No one able to modify the input of another user. Unfettered democracy.

The trouble is, to accomplish those things I cited above

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by me

-solve a product-related problem I might be having;
-read tips and tricks other users have used;
-read and evaluate suggested product improvements (mods);
-easily find and download user-made product enhancements
-in between product usage(s), pass the time with other users, telling stories, and discussing current events
-do all the above, without being distracted by taunts and ridicule for having asked, for the 40 thousandth time, the same question that's been asked since 6 years ago. Get that answer cheerfully and helpfully answered. Quickly.

---

requires someone - or several someones - to achieve. The sheer weight of time commitment is more than 1 or 3 or even 12 guys can handle, given the number of products covered and the expressed interests of the members.

So I grudgingly approve the use of time-volunteer Moderators and Assistant Moderators, and therefore also condone the selection of 'senior members', as a staff-selected honourific, to mark members whose contributions characterize what (current) staff, as a group, think they want to encourage in forum behavior & contribution.

We could totally ditch 'junior member', I think. Jump through the hoops we erect to register... be a fully-fledged Member. If you're a bot, or spambot, or hacker, we'll find out soon enough, and rid the place of you.

--------------

My $19.95

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

At TWC, citizenship (the equivalent of senior membership here) is a prerequisite for certain posts, most notably moderator. In addition to the badge and the hugely increased PM allowance, this is probably the biggest perk of citizenship. Here at the Org, senior membership is not a prequisite for such things, although it can help bring people to the notice of admins who decide such things - Banquo's Ghost was a lowly member when he became a Backroom moderator, and no-one can quibble with his promotion to staff.

At TWC, there's a member-driven body for enacting changes, called the Curia. It's only open to participation by citizens. However, my experience of it, shared by many others who've taken part in the site's administration in some form or other, is that it, as a body, is unfit for much more than handing out badges, which it's been doing copiously. Other than that, Questions and Suggestions, which is open to everyone, can be used for discussing changes or additions to the site, and as such, is little different from the Org's Watchtower. I've been trying my best to reform and direct the Curia towards doing something useful, as have other people, and hopefully there will be a change in culture some time.

As for badges, avatars and so on: someone still has to do them and implement them, even after they've been handed out. TWC is lucky in that there are a number of members who are happy to design such things, and admins who are willing to spend time implementing them. One of the main complaints about the Curia as a body, alluded to in the previous paragraph, is that it is willing enough to suggest ideas, but not willing enough to provide personnel to put them into action. As such, it had fallen into some measure of contempt from staff and others who are indeed willing to put some time and effort back into the community. As someone put it rather bluntly: the people who contribute greatly are the modders who bring people to the site and the staff who keep the site running, everything else is BS. Perhaps thanks to some plain arguments over this, and an infusion of eager new blood, it seems to have invigorated a bit very recently, but it takes time to see a project through, and it remains to be seen whether it can keep this going for a while.

---

All I'll say, pann - and don't quote me over there :beam: - is that we do not, absolutely do not, want to introduce the curia to here :book:

It's a good enough idea, but isn't really necessary, and doesn't fit in with the clientele of this site, imho. The requirement of 'citizenship' for moderator is arguably good, but it's also easily sidestepped, and doesn't really mean anything, as as someone has already pointed out here, if we publish a list of requirements in order for members to achieve a rank, they'll just go tick things off the list without really caring what they mean.

The question with this whole Senior Member thing is what more we want to offer here above and beyond what Kukri suggests. I do agree with him that the Junior Member rank needs a rethink - after all, we can ban spambots easily enough - and I think that that's something we should be looking at now, as well.

Quote:

---

Edit: I described the ability to beome a moderator as probably the biggest perk of citizenship. This is highly disputable, especially for those who have to patrol the discussion areas (the equivalent of the Backroom).

---

...but less civilized, I hear :grin2: My condolences to those people then, whoever they may be :juggle2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KukriKhan

My inclination or instinct would be to ditch staff and rankings altogether. Make us all the same. No one able to modify the input of another user. Unfettered democracy.

[..]

We could totally ditch 'junior member', I think. Jump through the hoops we erect to register... be a fully-fledged Member. If you're a bot, or spambot, or hacker, we'll find out soon enough, and rid the place of you.

---

I agree with nearly everything you wrote, master Kukri, except for the final flourish as quoted, which is inspired by instinct rather than experience.

This site is not a democracy, nor should it be. It is a private initiative in which, fortunately, a happy few dictate their standards to the hoi polloi. Without the hoops, the checks and the trappings the .Org would soon look, feel and sound like most other unmoderated forums out there. In other words, freaking useless.

Majorities are mostly silent or too busy with their lives to run websites. Majorities don't rule. Only rules supported by (often silent) majorities make a good website.

You wrapped that up nicely Adrian II-san; my instinct is democracy, but my experience shows that a benevolent dictatorship works best on the 'net.

Especially since we, the membership, enjoy the fruits of the place, without the cost.

I seriously like the fact that the distinction between member levels here is so irrelevant its largely ignored. Please don't start doing things to increase the differential.

The only thing that seems to be problematic with the Junior Member level is the lack of an edit button, in TW sections you do see people struggling to try and post mod previews or tutorials, obviously not many junior members do that but it comes up occasionally if they are say from other site, or long time maker of personal mods.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapi

All I'll say, pann - and don't quote me over there :beam: - is that we do not, absolutely do not, want to introduce the curia to here :book:

---

oh please let me.... http://www.twcenter.net/forums/image.../shifty4ib.gif
agreed anyway!

I agree with ditching the Junior Member rank.

For spambots, instead of that why not install some better bot controls to the registration process (or if this is already the case then all the better)?

For those undesirables the Junior Member process is much the same as the "tick all boxes" process mentioned above. So basically a troublemaker could register and be on their best behaviour until they're promoted to member, then all hell could quite conceivably break loose.

Also for decent ordinary members the Junior Member process can be rather off-putting. If you're not familiar with how the .org works, as most new members are not, then it can seem rather elitist and rank oriented to the newcomer - even though the .org is in fact far from this when compared to other message boards.

So perhaps instead of assuming everyone to be a criminal and locking them up to start with - just in case - maybe instead we should take the open and inviting approach, and given enough rope the idiots generally tend to hang themselves anyway?

:bow:

Maybe we can reserve the Junior Member rank for rule violators only? :grin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caravel

So perhaps instead of assuming everyone to be a criminal and locking them up to start with - just in case - maybe instead we should take the open and inviting approach, and given enough rope the idiots generally tend to hang themselves anyway?

---

Maybe the Junior rank could be scrapped for the above-mentioned reason. It is impractical for newcomers who have something worthwhile to contribute.

But the rest of the checks and balances should remain in place, I think, in light of the damage that a few bad characters can do to an otherwise flourishing community. I have seen it happen elsewhere. I hate to think what a few griefers could do to some of the .Org's brilliant modding efforts, or to the motivation of mods and other volunteers on the staff.

At the .Org I have often witnessed a beneficial dynamic. Illbehaved new members, particularly young ones, are confronted with their attitude very early on, and in most cases they learn from it. They start out by shouting their opinions down every hatch, they demand this and that, and above all they demand respect because hey, this is a democracy. After some mods and older members read them their rights, and after Tosa adds his weight if need be, they soon understand that this is a close-knit community that relies on voluntary efforts, and that they only way to get respect here is to earn it.

Call me oldfashioned, but I like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adrian II

But the rest of the checks and balances should remain in place, I think, in light of the damage that a few bad characters can do to an otherwise flourishing community. I have seen it happen elsewhere. I hate to think what a few griefers could do to some of the .Org's brilliant modding efforts, or to the motivation of mods and other volunteers on the staff.

---

The thing is, Junior Members already gain access to pretty much everywhere in the forum except the Miscellaneous sections already. Right now, a junior member troll can do just as much damage flaming, say, the EB section as any member can.

So apart from the off-putting title (I, for one, don't mind -- but how many others do?) and the lack of the edit ability, there's really not many reasons to make every new member a junior member anyway.

Of course, we in the Miscellaneous sections will have to share a bit more burden in keeping troubles in line, since right now they're closed to junior members, and I do believe that topics such as the Backroom's tend to provoke more, shall we say "passions," than topics about the games usually do. But I think the convenience for newcomers and their potential contributions outweigh my own comfort really.

I think Factionheir's idea is good. Keep that title for the fun of demotion. :beam:

ahha we're heading vaguely back to OP topic....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Backroom's tend to provoke more, shall we say "passions,"

---

agreed, but isn't backroom meant to be separate 'opt-in' membership anyway? So persons suitability could be checked when they 'opted' or removed if they became problem, instead of having separate membership level just to keep users out of that area.

I'm not 100% sure how that works though, I think I got opted-in automatically at some stage, which might have been due to AM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makanyane

I'm not 100% sure how that works though, I think I got opted-in automatically at some stage, which might have been due to AM.

---

I suspect the whole "Backroom Membership" thing was implemented long after you and I were in the zone, so to speak, so we all became Backroom Members by default. ~:)

You're right, I forgot that the young'uns now have to apply. That's one use of Junior Membership made redundant then.

.
The Junior Member status should remain. Most of the time it works as it should. This, ORG, is a community and the Junior Membership period serves for newcomers familiarise with the community.

In my time there were Junior Patron, Senior Patron and finally Member. Now, they were the days...
.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Reading through this again, can you reveal who this Senior Member is, who's generously shared his Stack of Porn with the other Senior Members?

---

And if you won't reveal that name, can you tell us who is hogging the stack at present? It's been a while and I'm still waiting.....:cheesy:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

And if you won't reveal that name, can you tell us who is hogging the stack at present? It's been a while and I'm still waiting.....:cheesy:

---

Relax! These are long, wintery nights! And there's lots of...'educational' material in there.


http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repo...s_et_TV/TV.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mak

oh please let me....
agreed anyway!

---

You're supposed to be staying out of the curia for your own sanity mak :shifty:

On topic, the only real negative of the JM system is that it's not really used any more; no longer do members remain in the EH until promotion - these days they're allowed out into the forums at large quite quickly, and while that's a good thing, I feel that it wouldn't hurt for it to be without restrictions ~:)

It is true that since Junior Members were allowed to access all areas that there is now no real reason to retain the Junior Member rank. The edit button controls are restrictive to ordinary Junior Members that may need to add something to their post but can't and then are forced to double post and apologise for doing so.

It would be better to simply keep the "demoted" rank for clearly identified troublemakers and restrict them to only the watchtower (to state their case) and entrance hall.

Also I think the backroom could do with some new blood and more diverse opinions instead of being restricted to the same small group of regulars. Again troublemakers can be dealt with through demotion and it's not as if we don't have enough Moderators here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caravel

Also I think the backroom could do with some new blood and more diverse opinions instead of being restricted to the same small group of regulars. Again troublemakers can be dealt with through demotion and it's not as if we don't have enough Moderators here.

---

We get a steady stream of applications and hardly any are refused. Of those who apply, my rough guess would less than 1 in 50 go on to make a post in the Backroom.

I think we'd all like to see new viewpoints ("new blood" has perhaps unfortunate connotations :devilish:) in the Backroom, but despite our best efforts, it is still a place of some rough and tumble - and thus not to everyone's taste.

It may also seem to be a place where alliances and friendships are already cemented, and a newcomer may feel concerned that challenging the status quo may be difficult. I'd certainly be interested in thoughts on how to remove that perception, if it does indeed exist.

But rest assured, a lot of members ask to take a look through the dingy, smoke-stained door in the shadows.

:eeeek:

Here comes Caius! :beam:



What would you (KukriKhan) change?

My inclination or instinct would be to ditch staff and rankings altogether. Make us all the same. No one able to modify the input of another user. Unfettered democracy.

The trouble is, to accomplish those things I cited above requires someone - or several someones - to achieve. The sheer weight of time commitment is more than 1 or 3 or even 12 guys can handle, given the number of products covered and the expressed interests of the members.

So I grudgingly approve the use of time-volunteer Moderators and Assistant Moderators, and therefore also condone the selection of 'senior members', as a staff-selected honourific, to mark members whose contributions characterize what (current) staff, as a group, think they want to encourage in forum behavior & contribution.


We could totally ditch 'junior member', I think. Jump through the hoops we erect to register... be a fully-fledged Member. If you're a bot, or spambot, or hacker, we'll find out soon enough, and rid the place of you.

What would I (Caius) change?

Its a good idea that there are different ranks. I don't think there is a need for unificating the ranks, there always have been members who were and are worth of being called Senior Members. I know there are a group of members who want to be senior Members, but they will have to prove they are worthy of being called in such fashion.

We can keep "Junior Member", but its not the same thing. I mean, when you joined, you had a welcoming crew that helped you to wait and discuss why camels sucks (don't kill me Mithrandir and Caravel ~D ) until you get a promotion to member. Now, junior members join, post once and they go away. I think the old times were better.

I am interested in being a AM or a Moderator. Not for the fact to have my name in green. If you need my help, just ask me. I am interested in apporting 0.04 cents to my community.

Regards

Caius