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Personally,I prefer the Germanic Axemen over Celtic swordsmen. Adequate missile defense is good to have,but when you get right down to it,it's the meeting of the blade in close-combat that wins the battle. I make great use out of archers and the like,but I've never won a large-scale battle with missile troops alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omanes Alexandrapolites
Axemen over Swordsmen in my barbarian armies.
Edit: Hey,my Diadochi banner works now! (Immitating Cartman) Sweeeeet!
Neither have I but I have this gr8 tactic i forgot to mention. I told my friends and they loved, i managed to destroy the western roman empire leaders army with it on BI.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartanGlory198
I put my vandal chosen swordsmen at one end of a bridge in a perfect hold ground stance. the romans stormed across the bridge to get them.
Then i sent my other section of swordsmen to swim over the river and cut off the far end of the bridge, it worked and they were trapped like rats. After that my 10 archer units finished them off. I killed everyone cos they couldnt retreat.
:smg:
I use that one,too! Simple,bloody,and effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord of Achaea
Great minds think alike.
Touche, my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartanGlory198
:2thumbsup:
O.of.A
A similar tactic can also be used in R:TW - even without the "swim" ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord of Achaea
In R:TW, there often is a shallow point in the river which units can cross at slightly up/down stream from the bridge. Unlike in BI though, anything, light or heavy, can cross there and flank the attacking foes.
I always send cavalry round of some sort. Its a very effective tactic in routing attackers or trapping them on the bridge so you can gain the pleasure of completely wiping out the opposition.
Using it is a bit of an exploit though, the AI is not aware of its existence so never actually uses it.
~:)
Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omanes Alexandrapolites
I'll look out for that.
:thinking2:
First time I noticed it I played with seleucians and divided my forces in to two only to find out that enemy attacked only the bridge .. almost lost that battle ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Omanes Alexandrapolites
later i have used it many times .. especially when I am out numbered and do not have heavy infantry to hold the bridge .. just sending the cavalry using the swallow point to attack the enemy from behind will soon create mass route and victory :2thumbsup:
this is also my fool proof strategy to destroy the senate army near rome no mather who I play :yes:
I was not aware of its existence either! I shall watch out for that the next time I play a bridge battle. You have no idea how much that knowledge would have helped me.... :embarassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Omanes Alexandrapolites
i would like if gaul have
2 barbarian cavalry
5 swordsmen
1 warlord
2 skirmishers
and if i am the romans and i have
3 hastati
3 principes
3 velites
2 equites
1 general
what formation should i put them in? should i have hastati as the first line and the principes behind them to be the second line? but the only problem with that is the gaul put their swordsmen in a one line so they might flank my hastati and kill my equites on the flanks
CAN SOMEONE PLZ HELP ME
when besieging a town (or large town) and the enemy sallies I tend to use my rams like a wall ..
i form a line like this:
< < < < <
< - ram (small caps between rams)
this prevents the enemy to attack my troops directly and will destroy there formation (very good thing if your enemy have lots of phalanxes) .. put your heavier troops on the flanks so you could destroy any flanking enemy units and in the middle some missile troops with units that can hold the line for some time .. when enemy finally attacks your troops you will have heavy infantry to attack there rears .. soon you will see a mass rout ..
have tried his both in vanilla and eb .. it works very well with romans but with others i'm not sure ...:inquisitive:
also against cavalry heavy armies (HA and stuff) it probably doesn't work :wall:
I would probably reccomend lining two Hastatii and all your Principles in a row on the second line. Switch on fire at will and guard mode to keep them held in place. By doing this the enemy will find it difficult to flank with their swordsmen - for every unit of them, there is a unit on the front line to combat them.Quote:
Originally Posted by salemty
In front of them place the Velites so they can begin the skirmish.
Behind them, I would advise assigning your unit of Hastatii to guard the flanks. Barbarian Cavalry are slightly better than Equites, so may need a little help if they do try to attack them.
Place the equites behind the hastatii and principle line with one on the left flank and one on the right. Place the general on one flank also.
The formation now looks like this:
v v v
h h p p p
e g h e
When the enemy charge forward, get the velites out of the way and to the back of the line, exposing the enemy to fire from your principles and hastatii. The foes will then charge onto your line of infantry.
When the enemy try to attack your units on the flanks (equites and/or equites and general), and all enemy cavalry units are safley out of the way. Send your velites around to flank the barbarian infantry which should be in contact with your current front line. You could leave one unit of velites around that area to help the hastatii/equites/general which are already there should they need any help. The general is your most powerful unit, so use him where the combat is going roughly or lines are collapsing.
Eventually a mass wave of routes should occur, leaving you to chase down the remaining barbarians!
~:)
I have a question, people seem to really like the pre marius 3 line formation with hastati first line principes second and triarii third. i dont understand were u would use this formation though. for example the enemy has more troops than you u cant use this formation becuase your units will be flanked. if he has less why not just surround him with your troops. Can someone plz tell me in what situation you would use the 3 line formation in!
Hmm... I don't, at least. I like to keep some units in reserve so that they can charge into the melee at a critical moment, stamina fresh. But the three-line formation is another thing altogether. I don't really know, but I think the people who use the three-line formation use it for maximum historical accuracy.
If I have all three classes of Roman infantry on the field, I would put the triarii at the edges, to anticipate cavalry charges at the flank, and so that as the triarii beats back the enemy troops, they can wheel around to outflank the enemy line. The hastati and principes I'd put in an alternating pattern: hastati, principes, hastati, principes and so forth.
I find that the historical tactics work well, you know the classics, Hammer and Anvil et al.
I usually put my infantry in two lines in the middle, and all the cavalry one side, and all the skirmishers (peltasts, velites and anything mercenary that can throw something) on the other side. In all the games I have played, I have never been successfully flanked when I used this method, the large group of cavalry can smash any flanking force to pieces (and can flank the enemy too!) whilst the light infantry on the other side can throw spears and generally weaken the enemy, before charging the weakened force (and if there are no enemy flankers, I used the light infantry to flank them too. Two flanking forces = insta-heroic victory) :laugh4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by salemty
If the enemy has more troops (and this is what i do), to prevent them from attacking your flanks
.................... P......P......P...................
..............H...........H............H..............
.....................V......V......V................
..............E E ..............G......................
(with the left hastati a bit inclined to the left and the other one to the right)
Or you can switch the hastati with the principes, but principes are stronger in defence, what makes them better to take charges... (I know this formation is historically uncorrect ) . I always put the Velites (and sometimes just spear throwing infantry like hastati) behind so they can keep on throwing while enemy is attacking the frontline. Cavalry behind for charges and prevent cavalry attacks from behind. I think you should perhaps add at least one triarii unit as support.
Note: For defending a city : (and i guarantee you this always works :D) when the enemy have to many rams to breach the wooden wall, i just put all my troops in the middle of the city, blocking the onlt 2-3 ways to get to the middle: spear infantry is very useful in this tactic
Phalanx units are even better :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Permenion
You took the words right out of my mouth!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun
Of course, but in salemty 's case, we're talking about Romans or Barbarians...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun
They don't have phalanx units there (or do they?) except some mercenaries.
I dont have any tactics to suggest, although a height advantage always helps. But i do have a formation you might want to try, its called the crown. It consists of 3 units of heavy cavalry, 5 units of heavy infantry, and a general behind that. The heavy cavalry charge into the enemy shield wall, doing much damage, then the infantry exploit this by attacking weakened areas and forcing the men to rout, when the enemy soldiers are along the lines of routing, charge you general straight into them and cause much damage, thus forcing them to break.
Technically,yes. You just have to go into the EDU and add "phalanx" to the Triarii entry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Permenion
Even after the Hastati and Principes had switched to the pilum,the Triarii retained their old hastae thrusting spears and continued to fight as hoplites.
Just one of many historical oversights by CA.
That,technically,does classify as a tactic in my book. I'll have to try that out in EB,which I'm currently restricted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by insane834
I also like my square bracket formation, heavy or light infantry on the front, and spears on the little edge on the side so when the flankers come they are immediately decimated by spears thus the [ Also you can put archers just behind the heavy or light infantry to draw attention away from the would be flankers
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Note that it is vulnerable to missile fire, so heavy cavalry is a must. Especially when dealing with onagers. thats why I use two general units, as they can take on a regular cavalry unit fairly quickly, and can then procedd to stomp on the enemy missiles. It is also virtually impenetrable to enemy units, but, just in case, it is good to have backup units. I usually take 15 phalanx, 2 archer, 1 onager, and 2 cavalry, but I grabbed to many this way and my phalanx had no supporting units. I usually have 1 or 2 units waiting within the circle for backup, and they patch when neccessary. Note that the onager is just for fun, and it does cause the enemy to lose morale and men. Please be careful when firing downhill, as the men in front of them are likely to take any misfored shots. If you do not win the battle, you will at least make sure that they lose alot of their men. More men than you lose, at any rate.
For the defense of a city:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Self Explanitory, pretty much. Strong defense on the walls they will attack, and if that fails, a decent defence in the center. Works pretty much all of the time.
The key is a mobile and flexible response. I've tried to learn, decisive battles attempting to set up conditions on strategic map, for a battle of annihilation, against AI which isn't planning on "running" as it's not against superior forces.Quote:
Originally Posted by salemty
For Maneuver, you need space, and that means "air" not an unbroken phalanx style line. That lets you get your spearmen to counter attack or intercept cavalry, get the missiles into a concentrated effective fire, and have the potential of maneuver, or reinforcing spots, or even charging with the general into a flank of a "wrapping around" unit.
In ancient battles, a phalanx couldn't maneuver much once formed up, it took a long time (hence skirmishers duelling for hours whilst the Hoplites put on their armour and shields). In one battle 2 Spartan leaders refused to move when ordered by general to move from right to left flank, as they feared the disorganisation of the maneuver. Battle lost as they were hitting air, and the left flank got turned (as tended to happen) in Phalanx v Phalanx conflicts.
Except in Prologue (where they give you a balanced army to start with), I rarely am able to field an actual Velites, Hastati, Principes, Triarii formation. But I have found, my preferred deployment against the foes such maniples would face, spear warbands, samnites, light barb cavalry and some heavy noble cavalry is historically based.
On some occasions, I've repeated a battle where a shallower formation has got into difficulties, against Cavalry or Chariots and discovered that the dense-mass is more resilient. It slows and stops holding opponents forces, giving time for the pila storm to have more effect. The Roman troops are trained to turn to side on flanks so getting flanked is not fatal (so long as you can counter cavalry with spearmen) and the next line, can counter-attack the exposed flank of the less disciplined opponents, who WILL be severely disadvantaged.
Velites out in front take some FLAK in many posts, but I noticed a Gaulish army with 5 skirmisher war bands, and 5 spear warbands plus general cav, is a far tougher opponent, than the AI's double line of 5 x 2 Spear warbands plus Cav (best if you can get at the skirmishers with superior cavlary, or get them to waste their ammo). So I persevered and I try and put them, out in front, where they can dodge thrown javelins which wastes oppositions ammunition, and also signals right moment to counter-charge with the Hastati. To avoid crowding problems it's vital not to form an unbroken line, but use the chequer board and frequently squarer formations than the default layout.
Then because you can't afford to "waste" triarii, Town Watch (or other cheap light spearmen) can buffer the Heavy Cavalry charges, allowing any Trarii, or Barb mercenaries and 2nd Line Hastati (ought to be Principes) to counter-attack effectively with a charge advantage.
In some battles, I replayed experimenting with deeper deployment (opponents with lots of cavalry plus chariots who chew up a shallow wing). Not nice, but frankly Town Watch and Velites are more "expendable" than Hastati; if they get caught and take a mauling it's cheap to replace, but they stop the momentum of the opponents, and allow most of the army to unleash an overwhelming counter attack.
Other times, it's all light fire and maneuver tactics, to chew up phalanx based armies, like German Spear Warband, who'd be rather formidable against Heavy Infrantry, but are too slow without decent cavalry cover to not be crushed by the apparently frail Light Infantry plus Cavalry combo.
Not read whole thread, but you might like to experiment with a hidden "refused " flank formation, which is good to hide scarily strong forces. Buys time to absolutely annihilate a barbarian force, and bag the all important general. If you just line up, they make you attack and are likely to be able to withdraw in better order from battle field (especially if there's woods to make pursuit harder).
Semi-Hidden Refused right-flank
H
H H V__
W A tH tH V
C G T I IW
H - Hastati, V_ default spread out Velites, V block Velites, W - warband, A - Archers. t - Town Watch
C - Light Cavalry (Equties or Barb Merc), G - General HC, T - Triarii. I - Illyrian Javellin skirmishers.
The idea of this, is to screen off much of forces, and allow the Velites channels to retreat. The right flank refuses contact against the line, which allows the semi-concealed power of the Warband to sneak behind a light cavalry screen, to flank. Depending on composition of forces the strong side may be columns, rather than extra lines.
The apparent retreat, sucks in opposition frontline, who think they're winning, but then face an extremely heavy storm of pila and javelins. The Archers also get to fire obliquely into unshielded right flank of charging opponents.
Note how the Triarii in such a formation (and the General) are actually near to every point of the real line, so you have "interior lines" of communication, with the fast light warband + cavalry able to flank. Much of the Hastati pila fire is more effective than usual to, because it's thrown from a flanking oposition.
That means you can concentrate intense missile attack, a counter-charge, plus a line of fresh reserve forces to exploit the shaken barbarian opponents.
In some battles, it's quite amusing when a flanking attack by a feeble weak unit like town watch, or simply the unexpected warcry of the 3rd line of a warband hidden behind the 2nd line, that triggers the rout, when acting at the decisive moment.
Experiment with some plans, drawing impetuous light cavalry onto a screened 3rd line of spearmen for instance, by feigned retreat.
I suspect that an army like the Gauls in RTW, expects to rush and charge, and doesn't have the stamina to fight for long. Therefore, with a deeper formation, there's more time for missile fire to inflict casualties; and the troops fatigue, even if they're not directly in combat.
So long as there's Cavalry, one routing unit on the main line signals a mass panic as, every unit knows what the result will be if they dally on the battlefield.
The game behaviour is not unreasonable, the barbs are often somewhat tired to start with after a long charge, and know if they can't sweep away the opposition in a rush, that they're likely to be on wrong end of a massacre.
I tried to do some of your circular formations, but my men were cut down before the could get there, and p.s, why do all your phalanxes have the peasant symbols???
Here are the historically accurate formations I was talking about:
https://i264.photobucket.com/albums/...rformation.jpg
Here is the Hastati forming the un-broken line after the Leves retreat:
https://i264.photobucket.com/albums/...singleline.jpg
When the Hastati get to the "winded" state, which takes forever, or the morale gets to the "shaken" state, which happens more often, I charge the princepes (still 8 ranks deep). At the same time, I turn Guard mode off for the Hastati and move them into "8 ranks deep", or however many ranks they can muster. Princepes are then made into a single line while the hastati retreat to where the Princepes were originally.
This formation is Camillan Era, Polybian is the same except without the Accensi and Rorarii. When it gets to the Marian and Imperial reforms I use the other historic formation.
Do it in the prebattle phase, before you actually click the "start battle" button. Let them come to you. If you have to move them, ctrl a them, and make sure the enemy is far away. they should move to the location and keep their formation once they set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane834
They have peasant symbols because I was modding with some new skins and horses, and was too lazy to give unit cards. If it helps, I can use regular units to make it easier for you to see my setup.
Nice!! But yikes!!! Unbroken line versus lots of phalanx and stand firm againstQuote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
their frontal attack??
Have you tried to reduce casualties, by using mobile fire and maneuver? That was the whole point of the Roman system. Where impetuous generals, rushed under-trained newly raised troops, incapable of disciplined maneuver, was common cause for the regular heavy defeats in early part of wars, eventually leading to creation of standing pro-legion. Those checker board squares, can move front-rear, and side to side like a sliding block puzzle to assault vulnerable sides and rear.
Maneuver and flexibility was the whole point of the "articulated" Roman javelin/swordsman, with the lightly shielded Velites able to run about. It does make for a very involved battle issueing lots of orders, and you have to try to watch both sides carefully, even then with large forces, some unit gets forgotten and stupidly impale themselves.
Historically in this case phalanx spear bit into the shields, effectively disabling the HI with Gladius, and the weight of men just push them back. One battle, the Romans were saved by the phalanx catching broken rougher ground, rather than level terrain, and the difficulty of maneuvring forward in battle conditions with an unbroken line, so gaps appeared the Romans infiltrate and breach the Phalanx formations permitting them to be crumbled up and defeated at close quarters, flanked and hit in rear.
Doesn't hit & run tactics work? Against German Spear Warband army of about 15 units, a weaker combined arms force was able to totally annihilate the attackers, by "cowardly" practice of using Velites and Hastati as bait, attracting attention, then retreating and maneuvring to attack in flank and rear. Combined with some Equites cav charges from rear of about to engage Phalanx.Quote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
Because of the quincunx, any frontally assaulted troops could withdraw covered by pila & javelins of other lines, whilst the fast light infantry engage from flank and rear.
If the Phalanx tries to keep a line, then using fast forces pref Cav, but can be relay of light troops to shift them and force them to wheel, tires out the end of the line. An unbroken line, has to constantly re-form and line up, slowing them down yet furher. If you think about it, then a deep column type formation can stall the whole front if necessary, and if they break formation then there's gaps for mobile forces to exploit (which was key in the Macedonians combined arms armies which defeated phalanx using mixed light missile, as well as more mobile, more lightly shielded Phalangists with Sarissas.
A Cav superiority is extremely desirable, which may have to be engineered by preparatory "sneak" attacks on any screening cavalry, by a heavier amoured, or numerically superior concentrated force. Or a ploy of offering bait, which retreats behind spearmen, to turn in the nick of time and charge, the engaged pursuers from exposed flank or rear.
Again choosing suitable ground for the battle field helps. If the warband have to cross a bridge, then there's opportunity for softening up with missiles, from flank as they cross, and more chance of defeating in detail as the superior force have to radiate outwards to gain space to deploy the rest of their units.
There's a neat tactical battle by Philip II of Macedon, where the Mac phalanx wing, made a tactical retreat of their phalanx line, back onto the raised bank of the river. This created a gap, which Alexander the Great, could breach with Companion cavalry and support a sudden counter-charge downhill by the Mac phalanx forces, with attacks against flank & rear. The Theban Sacred band, didn't shift off their strong position on hill on their right wing, which meant they could just be pinned by light troops, then surrounded by the Companions from rear, in preparation (probably) for annihilation where they stood by light Infantry missile fire.
what battle formation do u guys use at the start of the jullii campaign when you only have 6 units or so? also what formation do u use when outnumbered
Discussed this in your formation thread. Hopefully you noticed the Quincunx Manipular legion screenshot TruePretorian posted in this thread, showing the Chequierboard.
6 units presume you're concerned with Jullii. You can reinforce and build for first battle. The main lack, is spearmen. Samnite merc are available, and can see off Light cavalry, but suffer against Heavy Cavalry, and aren't good Infantry fighters, nor well armoured for jobs where missile fire has to be endured.
So screen with the Velites, mission to goad enemy into a charge so they run and tire themselves, or waste skirmisher warbands missiles before main battle. Open formation troops who weren't distracted could doge incoming, as javellins and arrows were visible in the air. Close order was a very different matter however.
Have a front line of Hastati, chuck pila & counter-charge when the Velites retreat. Protect your archers, with the Triariii, and use low quality spearmen, like TownWatch who act as rearguard (hold off cavalry attacks from rear) or charge stoppers if Noble Heavy Cavalry takes a tilt into your formation, trying to cause havoc amongst the archers. Once cavalry is stopped and fixed, then it can be destroyed. So your spearmen move to where enemy cavalry are heading.
The General unit, should not only try to provoke a rout during main engagement, and reinforce weak area battered by enemy General, but can draw cavalry pre-battle onto spearmen, so once fixed they can be destroyed by a charge. They may also draw off spear warbands, so they cannot return in time for main battle, or arrive tired. Just try to ensure they have some rests to become Fresh.