Stardock's new game -- Elemental: War of Magic

Where's that post by Wardell found?

Ok, I had an email from Stardock in return to my question.

It was mailed out on the 1st of September.

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What the :daisy: ? The game has been out over a week, and they just mailed it now?

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Originally Posted by alh_p

I guess, but he also now thinks its not just a matter of bugs and glitches -but substance.

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Yeah, that is what is most surprising about it - he admitted to fundamental blunders in game play/features. While the release version is a PR nightmare, they certainly could turn it around if they take huge steps to make it right with a major overhaul of the game. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

It looks like Wardell wound up talking quite a bit more about the whole thing, as did the project leader Scott Tyroski (BoogieBac on their forums). Here's what Scott had to say:

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Originally Posted by BoogieBac

Right below this thread, on the forums list, was another post called "I did not pay to Fix or Finish Elemental", which I believe is (ironically) the answer to your question. When officially release something, and it gets a 50% dissatisfaction rate on our own forums, that's a HUGE chunk of our customers that feel it wasn't ready to be put out, no matter how we felt about the 'Gold' version.

There's a lot to learn from the release of Elemental, and 'let's make every launch like this one!' is not one of them

However, we will ALWAYS put aside funds for future updates, so don't worry about that. Once the crushing worry about release dates and overall reception have come and gone, the post-release update period is the most fun you can have making games. I just hope that,once the dust settles, we all get to experience the joy of that period, and not be playing catch-up for years to come.

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And then here's all that Brad's said on the subject so far (warning: lots of text!):

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Originally Posted by Frogboy

Stop Stop Stop. And I'm not just saying that because it takes like half a minute to load up a page from here.
There is a phrase they use in the movie industry "Kill your darlings".

The person green lighting a production should NEVER EVER be the one working on said production. Writing AI on GalCiv or helping design the game mechanics on Sins of a Solar Empire kept me at a reasonable distance from the actual GAME.

The problem with Elemental was that I am in love with it. To me, it's not just a game. It's a whole world that we can expand and build on. During the months of July and August, when I was working on the game non-stop, I literally had a hard time distinguishing the difference between the GAME, the MODS and the future. It all merged into one fuzzy centrality.

Stardock will be working on Elemental for years to come. Literally. Let me be specific: Stardock will NOT release a new game next year. It'll all be Elemental related. Releasing it in August wasn't a financial decision. Hell, Stardock's games aren't funded by PC game revenue. I wanted you guys to get the game ASAP.

I think most people would agree that Elemental has tremendous potential. The reason it was released when it was was because we thought it had reached that level ready to be shipped. When you're living, breathing and eating something 24/7, your perspective changes.

From a personal pride point of view, it would be much easier to say "Whohaah, my jet fuel requires Elemental to ship in August!". To give you guys an idea of how certain I was that the game was ready for everyone to ship, I didn't just give copies to reviewers, I sent copies to my friends who used to be reviewers (long story but the gaming media has changed a lot in the past 18 months) because I was dying for them to see this masterpiece.

Tom Francis's debiliating PC Gamer preview only was possible was because I personally compiled a version for him (of v1.0) for him to see because the v1.0 version doesn't work outside North America (region checking). In other words, that negative PC Gamer UK preview was only possible because I was so confident in Elemental's readiness that I bypassed Stardock's PR people to get a friend of mine in Europe a copy.

I don't think there should be much disagreement that Stardock absolutely blew it with the launch. Holy cow that should be obvious by now. In my mind, anything less than "game of the year" (in a year with Starcraft 2 and Civ V in it) means we totally screwed up.

The real question, and the question I think every single person who shelled out $50+ for this game should ask is this: What is Stardock going to do to make me whole?

And the answer, I hope, is in the coming months because, like I said, most of Stardock's revenue doesn't come from making PC games.

Having my idiocy shown on a global stage is humbling but probably very constructive for PC gamers. I think most people would agree that Elemental is a fantastic game -- once you get past the idiotic UI decisions, balance, etc.

We are very fortunate to be in a position to make the situation right. We're our own publisher. We don't have the same financial constraints as other companies so we can spend months or even years if necessary to do right by you guys.

Hopefully, this message will make it up to the forums, (because it was long) but if it does, please take it as it is meant. I failed you. I failed you because I love what we're doing and out of sheer hubris -- that the basic law of programmer != guy who decides if it is done somehow didn't apply to me. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Elemental is getting pasted in reviews and deserves that pasting. I'm glad many people are having fun but our eyes have been opened. Like I said before, I'll be writing a lot more about this when I get back to an Internet connection that measures bandwidth with an M instead of a K.

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Originally Posted by Frogboy

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I think most people would agree that Elemental is a fantastic game -- once you get past the idiotic UI decisions, balance, etc.


I'm not sure if this is meant as a joke. Taken seriously... once you get past all the problems, you don't have much of a game left. It's a collection of ideas that don't work as a whole. That's the opposite of a fantastic game.

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Obviously, if you don't like the game at its core, you probably won't ever like it. My suggestion would be to read carefully the reviews of Tom Chick, Troy, and even Tom Francis's to get an idea of the level of fail here.

When I worked with Tom Chick on GalCiv II, he could give me feedback and it was to me. If he didn't like something it was no skin off my back because I wasn't coding it. I would just pass it on and make adjustments. But on Elemental, because I was personally coding (i.e. personally spending 2am mornings coding) a "suggestion" carried a different emotional context.

It doesn't change the fact that I was an idiot or whether Stardock's games unit got filled with "group think". The issue is the *result*. At the end of the day, gamers shouldn't care WHY a launch failed. But rather what the heck the company that just charged you $50 for said game is gonna do about it.

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Originally Posted by Frogboy

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I like the concept. But you have a set of mechanics that do not work with each other very well, a graphics engine that's causing a lot of people problems, a magic system that is underwhelming, and an AI that doesn't live up to the billing.

You take those away and what's left? Pretty much the setting and the concept. Troy's review makes much the same point.
Elemental is a fantastic idea. Is it a fantastic game when you look past the issues? I don't see how it can be - at least, not with by any definition I'm familiar with. I think it's going to be a herculean task to take all these ideas and batter them into a genuinely workable game. Your first post suggested you were fully aware of the scale of the work required, as does your reference to Tom and Troy's reviews, but when you make comments like the one I quoted it seems like you're viewing it from a completely different perspective.

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(bear in mind reading this forum right now is like reading off a 56k modem right now so my responses are based on reading pieces).

I don't think Elemental's shortcomings can be fixed with tweaks or small patches. I think there are core game mechanics and AI that will have to be revisited. I think there are things that would normally be reserved for sequels that will have to be put in.

I think I mentioned this earlier but we employ multiple former editors of major review sites who were part of the process. When you're working a long time on a project it's easy to get way way way too close to it and soon, its foibles and flaws become simply part of the fabric.

When I get home, with the benefit of being away for a bit, I'll be able to outline some specific and in hindsight, obvious game mechanic things that will need to be addressed for Elemental to begin to reach its potential.

As an AI coder, the biggest disappointment to me is that I allowed the design to allow so many N^2 variables (I'll talk about this later). So don't think i'm thinking that we can just tweak around the edges to make Elemental what it needs to be. That would be just another version of denial of the problem -- as if we could just tweak it and suddenly it goes from a 3 out of 5 to a 5 out of 5 and no, that's not the case. Not even close.

The upcoming version they're working on, v1.07 is still about working on all the crazy compatibility issues that our engine has to deal with (that deserves a separate discussion but I've been looking at the check-ins and they're depressing to me. I see a lot of "Fix allocation that causes a crash on nVidia driver 1/10/2010" type stuff which makes me wince).

The kinds of changes Elemental will require to meet is potential are pretty big things IMO. Things that we (and myself in particular) were just blind to. Let me give you a couple of concrete examples so you can see what I'm getting at (and this post BETTER post, this is like being back in 1994): My friend Mark Asher on a post on a forum talked about how boring our spells were. I took that to be about the spell names. But it wasn't just the spell names, it was about the spells themselves and how they worked. The way resources are managed and handled is very limiting when it comes to the way the AI has to deal with them (N^2 variables).

Anyway, the point is, we fell in love with a vision of the game that was largely in our minds rather than in reality. The difference here is that Stardock has the luxury of being able to address it. Even if Elemental didn't sell a single new copy, we would still be able to address it.

I truly wish I could ascribe Elemental's launch to cynical greed or something. Cynical greed beats out pathetic incompetence any day.

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Originally Posted by Frogboy

I think, for starters, the first expansion pack for Elemental - Book 2, will have to be given away for free to the people who already bought the game.

In my mind, that's a START. So, anyone who sticks with is going to get at least one free expansion pack out of it. And it won't be some piddly "look, it's a new campaign". Think Dark Avatar level expansion.

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So yeah. While it goes without saying that I wish they would've caught themselves before the apparent fiasco of the game's launch, it's heartening that at least they're fully admitting their mistakes and are determined to make things right. They can't undo what they've done, but Stardock does have a pretty good reputation for supporting and standing behind their games. I've enjoyed my experiences with GalCiv2, and I'm confident that Elemental will eventually be up to its predecessor's same high standards....even if I'm afraid it's going to be too little, too late for many would-be fans/customers (and understandably so).

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Originally Posted by Decker

Where's that post by Wardell found?

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You can find all the posts I just referenced in this thread.

Thanks Martok.

Sounds like a complete breakdown of software production methodology. I wonder if The Mythical Man-Month will be required reading at Stardock HQ in a few weeks.

Looks like I'll be waiting a while for this one. Good thing I got STW working on my laptop.

Ouch: The game received a paltry 4.0 from Gamespot.

Double ouch: Due to the game's poor state at launch, Stardock apparently has revised (downward) their projected revenue so drastically that they've had to do layoffs for the first time in twelve years. It sounds like most of the layoffs are with the second development team they'd been working on putting together, so Elemental itself shouldn't really be affected; nevertheless, this has got to be a huge setback for them.




@Decker: You're welcome. :bow:

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Originally Posted by drone

Looks like I'll be waiting a while for this one. Good thing I got STW working on my laptop.

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Heh. Indeed.

I was complaining earlier in another forum that I'd still not received my physical copy of the Limited Edition that I pre-ordered (lo these many months ago). However, given how things have gone so far, perhaps it's just as well that I haven't yet. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Ouch: The game received a paltry 4.0 from Gamespot.

Double ouch: Due to the game's poor state at launch, Stardock apparently has revised (downward) their projected revenue so drastically that they've had to do layoffs for the first time in twelve years. It sounds like most of the layoffs are with the second development team they'd been working on putting together, so Elemental itself shouldn't really be affected; nevertheless, this has got to be a huge setback for them.

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Yeah that sucks a lot for the people getting layed off. I hope things eventually turn around. I don't own the game but I do hope and think that Stardock, and most importantly Wardell, are going to learn some very very hard lessons here and I hope that after this is all somewhat smoothed out that Stardock comes out more mature and for the better as a whole.

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@Decker: You're welcome. :bow:

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I am most thankful :smile:

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I was complaining earlier in another forum that I'd still not received my physical copy of the Limited Edition that I pre-ordered (lo these many months ago). However, given how things have gone so far, perhaps it's just as well that I haven't yet. :sweatdrop:

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Look at it this way, you get all the cool fuzz that comes with it along with Wardell's brutal honesty and promise that he and his team/company will work many sleepless months to fix the game so it is up to their vision. You will have the game at it's peak at some point in the future, so.... I'd say you have it good :wink:

I think this game ended up proving my fears about it. When I first experienced the demo, I had alarm bells ringing when everything was going to the pan. Unfortunately, lack of refunds even during the beta stage and naive hope that they would end up fixing the problems never came.

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Originally Posted by Martok

Ouch: The game received a paltry 4.0 from Gamespot.

Double ouch: Due to the game's poor state at launch, Stardock apparently has revised (downward) their projected revenue so drastically that they've had to do layoffs for the first time in twelve years. It sounds like most of the layoffs are with the second development team they'd been working on putting together, so Elemental itself shouldn't really be affected; nevertheless, this has got to be a huge setback for them.

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That really, really sucks for the second development team - it's not even their fault! (Or thats how it sounds.)

And I hate how Gamespot is only fair with games that don't have billion dollar PR campaigns. But that hate is mitigated by me rarely ever seeing their review scores anymore.

I loved this tagline in this email I just got:
https://img94.imageshack.us/img94/22...mentalscam.png

Wow! A Whole years worth of support! and "content" for a game with serious issues.

I said the same thing when i read that.

Well, I think it's probably important for them to stress that from a marketing viewpoint. Pretty much everyone probably knows that the game has issues- so by pointing out that it's going to be getting updates for at least a year, they could help convince people who are still on the fence to buy the game.

Also, Brad has said that current owners of the game will be getting the first full expansion of the game for free as a thank you for sticking with it.

In similar news: Version 1.08 should be out next week and it sounds like MP will finally be enabled with it.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

I loved this tagline in this email I just got

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They've sent me at least 4 copies of that now. It's getting annoying.

I got one of these emails hyping up the free year of support several days before the game launched. It's not a recent addition in reaction to the disasterous launch. At the time I thought it was a badly phrased attempt to say "We're going to support this game in the same way we did GalCiv2."

In other news, Impulse now lists Elemental as 40p more expensive than it was when it appeared to be the next big bright hope for turn based strategy gaming. Hehe, first time I've seen a game near-universally panned and then go up in price! It's all thanks to exhange rates, of course. Still funny for the little "Eh?! But wasn't ...?!" moment it gave me.

Oh, I just got a notice, I have to pay £15 charge for the delivery of the game.

Stardock is now on my blacklist, it is officially the worst piece of :daisy: I have experienced. Not only does it create rubbish overpriced games, dreadful support and a horrible 'impulse' system which is the cheap and nasty version of Steam, it has the cheap to charge me another £15 on-top of what I have already paid?!

Oh damn.. now that is really bad.

Because I pre-ordered the game, I can't get a refund. Only a refund through "Store credits". That is really annoying as I never wanted to use Impulse again.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Oh damn.. now that is really bad.

Because I pre-ordered the game, I can't get a refund. Only a refund through "Store credits". That is really annoying as I never wanted to use Impulse again.

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If you bought the game during the beta period, you don't get a refund. I'm surprised they're even doing store credits, as that was made pretty clear at the time. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

If you bought the game during the beta period, you don't get a refund. I'm surprised they're even doing store credits, as that was made pretty clear at the time. :shrug:

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Well, was kind of your fault for completely misrepresenting the game, which lead me to pre-ordering. :tongue:

Update:
I now have a full refund minus the shipping, as it was shipped. This is in the form of 'Store' credit.

Does Impulse act like a DRM, or is it just a downloader? or does it depend on the title?

Their line has always been that once a game is installed, Impulse should be completely uneccessary except for updating. So if you're not worried about patching your games, you should be able to uninstall Impulse and still have all your games work. I've never done this, so I can only tell you what's been said.

Also, if you've got store credit to burn, and like tower defense-type games, check out Sol Survivor. I thought it was a fun time sink. :yes:

Scott (BoogieBac) posted this in the Journals section:

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Greetings!

For those who didn’t know (and I don’t know if anyone cares) I’ve actually been out for the last two weeks, ‘expanding my dynasty’, so to speak (baby #2). It was a nice dose of reality coming off a pretty rough month - but you guys have been around the forums, so I wont churn that bucket of woes.

Instead, I’d like to take a fresh look at where we stand right now. While my time away didn’t provide the rest I would have liked, it did get me out into a state of mind where I could reflect on Elemental with a slightly clearer head...plus I played some ‘Legend of Zelda’ to get back to my roots



1. Tutorial
Elemental is a big game. I feel bad that we shrugged off a tutorial, but that’s what happens when you’re so close to a project. “How could someone NOT know what what 16x16 button does...” What can I say...we’re dumb. There are A LOT of ideas being tossed around about how to improve gameplay, AI, and performance, but no matter what we change, it’s obvious that a tutorial made now has a 100% chance of being obsolete once the major patches roll out. So opposed to putting in yet another feature that will need reworked, we’re putting that effort into feature implementation and bug fixes...so no tutorial yet. But it’s coming.

Zelda Sidenote: Speaking of games that need better hand-holding, why would the ‘Meat’, necessary to traverse the 7th dungeon, be sold in a store hidden in a tree that you have to burn down half way across the world?! WHY?!?!?! At least now I have the internet, instead of bribing the kid at school who had ‘Nintendo Power’

2. Better-er Graphics
By giving the player full camera control, we’ve sacrificed the ability to ensure the game looks good at all times. In marketing terms, it’s WAY too easy to make a crappy looking screenshot in Elemental...but you get the right angle, the proper objects and a nice zoom and it looks pretty slick (IMHO). We have some ideas for v1.1 that will keep the full camera control that we love, but also ensure the game makes for an interesting composition a higher percentage of the time.

Zelda Sidenote: I really love the retro-graphics movement going on right now in the indie/casual gaming scene. Obviously we have our work cut out on getting Elemental up to speed, but I would love to do a simple, retro-themed Elemental game done in the style of those old Beta intros. Perhaps in a year I can revisit that idea

3. Multiplayer
We’ve seen a few folks jump into the internal-tests we’ve been running....we’re normally playing in the afternoon, so feel free to search us out. It tends to be the art team, and they tend to be a bit ‘smack-talk’ happy, but a good time to be had none-the-less.

Zelda Sidenote: Anyone play Secret of Mana for the SNES? A Zelda style dungeon crawler that allowed up to 3 friends to play co-op? Old-school multiplayer at it’s best.

4. Updates, Updates, and More Updates!
We’ve been served a healthy slice of humble pie with Elemental’s release, but now we’re lucky enough to have a chance to redeem our ‘baby’ (I’m glad actually babies don’t get a metacritic score). If you’re reading this, then you’re keeping tabs on Elemental as we continue to improve it post-release, and for your support and continued feedback we’re immensely grateful. Hopefully all the great ideas we’ve received will be digested, organized, implemented, and accumulate into several groundbreaking updates that reach the potential mentioned throughout the reviews.

Anyways, I just saw the newest poll, and couldn't agree more on how the numbers are falling. Magic and combat are high on our priority lists, so I’ll be excited as these get hammered out.

Time to head home and help out with baby...then it’s back to Hyrule for further ‘inspiration’

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A couple hours later, Brad (Frogboy) posted the game's tentative update schedule:

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Here's our schedule for updates to Elemental for the remainder of 2010. This schedule is subject to change and will be refreshed as we near the end of the year to detail updates for 1Q2011.

v1.09


Memory Optimizations
AI Updates
Bug fixes
Performance improvements
Minor balance tweaks
Due: September 30, 2010

v1.1


New Magic System based on a shared mana pool.
Refresh of all magical spells
Major AI Update
New global resource: Specialist Slots (allows more choices between guns and butter for players)
Refreshed User Interface
Due: October

v1.A (Expansion 1)


New Combat System (To Hit stat with damage being rolled separately, lots of other changes)
New Tactical Battle System (removal of action points, combat speed determines initiative and how many times a unit gets to perform an action in a given tactical turn)
Tutorial
Visual Overhaul
Lots of other goodies which we'll discuss later
Due: End of November
Free to everyone who buys Elemental: War of Magic

V1.B (Expansion 2)


Due: 1Q2011
Free to everyone who buys Elemental: War of Magic by October 31

Beyond v1.B:


Regular updates are scheduled (budgeted) for v1.x of Elemental for calendar year 2011.

This is by no means a complete schedule as minor updates may occur in-between these milestone builds.

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Stardock sent me an email advertising the latest patch for Elemental. I don't own it. Puzzling.

So, how's the game turning out?

I think that went out to everyone on Impulse, I got it as well (don't own Elemental).

So the next expansion "Fallen Enchantress" is being released as a standalone expansion- I'm guessing it's going to essentially be a 'do over'. The good news is that it will be free to everyone who bought Elemental in 2010.

It sounds like they may actually get it this time. Here's a dev journal/preview video.. There seems to be a much stronger emphasis this time on making the world more interesting and alive seeming. Here's hoping. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

So the next expansion "Fallen Enchantress" is being released as a standalone expansion- I'm guessing it's going to essentially be a 'do over'. The good news is that it will be free to everyone who bought Elemental in 2010.

It sounds like they may actually get it this time. Here's a dev journal/preview video.. There seems to be a much stronger emphasis this time on making the world more interesting and alive seeming. Here's hoping. :sweatdrop:

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Hope I get two copies of Fallen Enchantress then. Haven't played Elemental and think I might just wait for x-pack.

I am not expecting anything remotely interesting from Stardock for a long time. Elemental: War of Magic was a shoddy piece of work, plagued with multiple issues and hidden costs.

Hidden costs?