Byzantium Total War

Here's another stupid idea.

Some vices and virtues are acquired by what generals. Eg. recruiting mercenaries gives a general a bonus when leading mercenaries.

Byzantium conferred titles and in fact sold titles. Is it possible to create agent units that confer titles with vices/virtues? The role of the agent is not important, but rather its role as a giver/presenter of the title.

If you wanted to confer a Patrician title on a general, you "train" this conferring agent and then attach him to the general just like spies that merge with the general's figure on the campaign map.

Some titles were purely honorary, others however had an annual stipend that came with the title. Suppose you wanted to confer a title of Patrician to "increase" loyality of an exceptionally dangerous general with low loyalty you train the unit at a cost of 45000 denarii. Why?

a) 45000 represents the annual stipend a general would recieve in his lifetime until he dies (at most a general lives for around 30-40 years so at best, he gets 1000 a year for 40 years which is roughly 40000 denarii. Consider it an advanced lump sum payment of stipends!

b) so people won't go overboard and train so many conferers of titles!

c) represents the historically accurate cost of conferring titles which can be bought and have annual stipends from the court attached to it which of course makes it expensive but effective if used well.

Now, of course, this can be applied to other kinds of titles for other factions.
Eg. even after the Nicaeans conquered Constantinople, there was a titular title that Latins stilled used that designated a Latin as Emperor of Constantinople. A latin faction could a conferrer of the title to give to their faction leader.

This can expand to religious roles of the Patriarch where their lifetime salary is cost of training the conferrer of the title.

Ok, enough of my iconoclastic ramblings.

Screenies are nice, wish I had time to learn how to skin and mod. If I could, I'd shotgun the modelling of John Tzimicies golden Immortal Tagmata units.

:hide:

I think I can succesfully add you to the BTW team. You came up with excellent gameplay ideas. ~:cheers:

You can learn to skin or model by visiting the Scriptorium. ~:)

I don't mind being dropping a few ideas, I love Byzantium but have rarely anytime to dabble in modding. IN addition, I don't have all the software...until I go to asia...hehehehe.

Besides, I got exams and then Im going overseas.

Ok. Heres another idea that knocked around my head at uni.

At John Tzimices death in 976, there is no suggestion that the Immmortals were immediately disbanded. BUt the silence of historians does suggest that thw Immortals eventually were disbanded or simply grew too old (after all u don't expect 30 yr olds in 976 to fight when theyire 80 yrs old in 1025 do ya? hahaha).

An Immortals Tagmata unit could be placed in the capital in 976, however, they can't be retrained if they're decimated. In addition, new units cannot be trainied either, Basically, if u get them wiped out, they're gone forever. But you get a least a unit from the start of the campaign.

This kinda solves tricky issues of Tagmata units that don't last beyond a single ruler's reign.

Here's an idea I got while showering...don't ask why it happened...call it serendipity.

There were variations of Varangian Guards in Byzantine service - this affects their arms/armour/appearance:

Varangian Guard version A:Newly arrived Varangian, retains original arms and armour which includes iron helmet(with nasal guard), mail shirt, axe and sword and spear. Wears a mixture of Slav and Turkic clothing. Shield is rectangular or round.

Varangian Guard version B: Been in the service a few years now. With access to imperial arsenal, Varangian wears a mail shirt down to the knees and elbows. Has a iron helmet (with or without nasal guard) and an open aventail or complete wraparound aventail. Also has splint greaces and vambraces. Carries sword, long axe or spear.Shield by this period is of the kite-shielded kind but the Skuta can still be used.

Varangian Guard version C: Been in the service long enough to speak Greek and possibly adopt the Christian faith. His armour may resemble that of version B but in general, his armour is completely Byzantinised. It is reflected in his lamellar cuirass to elbows and knees (like the Klibanophori) over a padded coat or a padded coat quilted with mail. His long axe may be worn out or replcaed by a Byzantine custom manufacture. In addition he could be equipped with the falx-like Rhompaia described as having a blade as long as the handle oftened carried by Byzantine guardsmen. A sword and spear is an option. Helmet has either open aventail or wraparound aventail. Shield is either kite-shaped or a round Skuta.

On the issue of Kataphraktoi/Klibanophori. I haven't read all the stuff yet, but this my interpretation anyway.

Tagmatic Klibanophori: Why only Tagmatic? The expense of equipping one made sense to restrict it to elite soldiers of the capital. Iin addition, Tagmata were also stationed in the capital and in the provinces as well, unlike the previous system of only stationing them in the capital. So they could be raised from the Themes without being "Thematic" soldiers. Primarily melee units designed close combat, not for charging. Mace and Kontos main weapons. Bows are for lighter armoured Klibs or other light horse archer cavalrymen in the wedge formation.

Tagmatic Kataphraktoi: Belonged to one of the permanent Tagmatas or periodic Tagmatas (like the Immortals). Generally, they were better equipped heavy cavalry with the predominant lamellar over mail protection. Padded coating could also be worn underneath. Higher pay, higher morale and separated them from Thematic Kataphratkoi. Can be doubly armed, but they are not the composite lancer/archer Kataphraktoi of earlier times anymore. They are strictly either archers or lancers - Leo's Taktika specifies this as does Maurice who showed his preference for either bow or lance.

Thematic Kataphraktoi: Most likely from the magnate clans of Anatolia who formed the civil and military aristocracy of the region. Being aristocrats, they had the ability to purchase good quality equipment just like the Tagmatic Kataphraktoi (if not better than government issue). Difference is pay and morale. Weapons are like the Tags. Leo describes "first class" Thematic cavalry as "Kataphraktoi".

Thematic cavalry (don't know Greek name): Most likely spear/sword/shield armed cavalrymen. Wealthier soldiers could afford lamellar cuirasses.

Second class cavalrymen were probably the Trapezitois or lighter armoured version of the waelthier ones.

When I get time, I;ll learn to mod and start churning out some units. Who knows, I might do the Georgian thing and post numerous threads on Georgia's army. ~:joker:

hmmm. Are you guys gonna create Dzekone's units?

These guys are poor thematic soldiers who can't afford equipment or can't fulfill their military service as specified. Basically, they're just poor! No wonder why they get the nickname "cattle-thiefs". So what do these poor blighters do? They sign up for garrison duty ~D Everyone's happy!!! ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

hmmm. Are you guys gonna create Dzekone's units?

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"dzekone" ??? Whats this ???? ~:confused:

Where u read it? the word doesnt seem to be greek at all.

We plan on including the 4 Tagmata schools.
The problem is, we have difficulties in establishing, because everyone comes with solid info, and it's hard to decide.
As for the Immortals, we might do it. ~D

We have 2 types of Varangians anyways....

Dzekones?! Then what are Evzones?!

Oh, don't do Georgia, or I'm gonna have you reported for spamming. ~D

I think I mean Tzakones. I can't quite remember the Greek name, but this might be it. Basically they're thematic soldiers who too poor to be equipped so they sign up for garrisoning duties. Considering the professionalisation of the army around 976 and the decreasing importance of thematic soldiers..plus the increasing size of the empire, this would seem plausible.
One thing about mods is that there is always a plethora of units you add to a faction. What a nightmare!!!

The Tzakones were used as guards at several places and most of them were recruited in Morea(Peloponesos).They also served as marines.
Even now there are people in Peloponesos,Greece who are called Tzakones and speak a Greek dialect derived not from the Hellinistic Koine(from which the official Greek are derived) but from a Doric local dialect.

ok, its pretty clear I don't have the exact name. But there was an actual category of thematic soldiers who were garrison fodder.

Ok, no Georgia spamming, how about Mangoup spamming? Yes, Mangoup, that little breakaway state in the Crimea when Constantinople fell. Mangoup is so small it was only by chance that I came across this little breakaway crumb of a state on the internet.

MANGOUP POWAH!!!

But in all seriousness, this mod is humming quite nicely. The Cuman/Mongol Heavy Cav looked top class and those Matzoukions! Man, they're sure to leave a birthmark on ya!!!.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA

The Tzakones were used as guards at several places and most of them were recruited in Morea(Peloponesos).They also served as marines.
Even now there are people in Peloponesos,Greece who are called Tzakones and speak a Greek dialect derived not from the Hellinistic Koine(from which the official Greek are derived) but from a Doric local dialect.

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Well,its Tsakones or Tzakones then ~:)

It is also said that they were of slavic origin.
I think they lived only on mountain Taygetos,besides the "Melingi" tribe.
U mean that "tzakones" isnt a name of a tribe ? And were they used so wide?

If you guys want I can create some sharp signatures, in greek.

oh, definalty go for. you have our blessing ~D

How do you make their byte size small. I notice that the current byzantium ones are over 20 kb, while yours is really good quality and it's only 3 kb.

It's not necessary what size. Just do it good. ~D

Excellent guys!!! Thanks. Our Evzones are the Tzakones. Thank God we found out who these guys were..... ~:cheers:

hoggy made the blue lotus one, so im not really sure how he did it..... im guessing its just the file format.

It's not the file format. I'm mad at myself, I made a really good one and tehn I deleted it because it was like 30kb. Ok so how do I do it?

https://img419.imageshack.us/img419/...orocopy5ys.gif

Here's one that I like the colours of. It's not even close to being as good as the others though so hold your breath.

And another:

https://img122.imageshack.us/img122/...311copy2xf.gif

Cute. But it's Byzantium.

Hmm, do you guys know the exact name in Greece of Byzantium?! ~:cheers:

Βυζαντινή αυτοκρατορία, or Ανατολική ρωμαϊκή αυτοκρατορία

The second is the most accurate.

Byzantium sounds wrong to me.

And in Latin?!We need in latin, cause nobody would like it in actual Greek....

There is no name in Latin. You can just name it byzantion since it represents the culture and then for the sake of historical accuracy make the name like it's supposed to. Or you could just call it Eastern Roman Empire.

No no no...In latin letters I mean....

Anatoliki Romaiki Aftokratoria. The best I can do. It's still too large to be sigged.

Actually,the Byzantine Greek State or the Eastern Roman Empire was called by the people who lived at that time Ρωμανία or in Latin letters Romania.This is how the empire was called by its subjects.
There is a traditional song about the capture of Constantinopolis,if i remember well:Η Ρωμανίαν πάρθεν/ I Romanian parthen=the Empire was captured

Well the official name of the state :Romaiki Aftikratoria (Ρωμαϊκή Αυτοκρατορία) (Roman Empire)
And among the people :Roman'ia (Ρωμανία)
The people were called Romei (Ρωμαίοι) or Romji (Ρωμιοί).

"..Η Ρωμανία κι αν πέρασεν ανθεί και φέρει κι άλλον"
"..Εven if it was captured,Romania will blossom and rise again"

Maybe we should rename the mod Romaiki Aftokratoria?! ~:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Maybe we should rename the mod Romaiki Aftokratoria?! ~:)

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Well,i dont think it would be a quiet good idea-Romaiki aftokratoria ,means roman empire,and even in greek noone could think its about Byzantium ! ~:)

Ok, 2 votes for yes.

Anyone?! ~D

Its your mod its up to you, it depends whether you wan't your mod to be historically accurate or easy to understand what its about, but then frankly not many people know who the Byzantines are anyway!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seleukos

Well the official name of the state :Romaiki Aftikratoria (Ρωμαϊκή Αυτοκρατορία) (Roman Empire)
And among the people :Roman'ia (Ρωμανία)
The people were called Romei (Ρωμαίοι) or Romji (Ρωμιοί).

"..Η Ρωμανία κι αν πέρασεν ανθεί και φέρει κι άλλον"
"..Εven if it was captured,Romania will blossom and rise again"

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Seleuce,The terms Romaiki Aftokratoria,Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantion(Byzantium) are neologisms.The state,officially and unofficially,was called just Ρωμανία.
Maybe Ρωμανία with Greek letters is a good solution to your problem, edyz.

Guys, Latin letters only for the name!!!

Nobody will understand greek words.... ~:mecry:

I think the name of the mod can be Byzantion TW it really sounds more Greek.
But in the game you can name it anyhow. Romania has another meaning now, thus even Romaiki Aftokratoria sounds good.

Byzantine Prince: I like your first pic better.

Possibly...

I think we need to ask some more Greeks about their opinion. ~:)

Well Byzantion is Byzantium in greek(the ending -ion is neutral ending)
Its pronounced "viza'dion".
But i agree with signifer, ΡΩΜΑΝΙΑ with byzantine-style letters would be better.

Howdy y'all? ~:joker:

I couldn't resist.

Yes, In greek it's called Byzantiov, pronounced vi-ZAN-ti-on.
Today, the Greeks in turkey are called "Roum" by the turks.

Istanbul came from the Turks, who upon hearing Greeks say "Eis tin Poli."
Poli meaning city back then, not city state!

Na Eisaste Kala!

Yia Sou Thessalia! :knight:

After some thinking if the name will be Romania in the introduction you can explain the reasons. This is neccesary if you want to avoid the complains: "why did you called Byzantion to Romania? I never heard about it." ~:)

It might also sound Romania TW, just like my country.....

So, drop it. Maybe Byzantion Autokratoria... ~:)

Yeah. But I meant to call the mod Byzantion TW (what everybody know well - good PR) but in the game B can be Romania. And in the intro you will write what these Greek guys interpreted. The guys will be amazed about this historic but unknown fact.
Btw Why the hell we learnt about it as Byzantine Empire???

Historians decided to call them the Byzantines, because originally the city was called Bizantium. When the Western Roman Empire fell, they decided that they had to call the Eastern Empire something else to differentiate them. So after 476ad it's called the Byzantine Empire. Makes no sense to me, since as far as I know, they still called themselves Romans right?

Anyways, I would call the mod Byzantine TW, it's easier to understand what it's about. To me at least. The screenshots I saw are good, and I am looking forward to seeing this finished!

From aetius's point of view, he's totally right... :bow:
It's easier to understand and view it like this, than a complicated Greek name....

It has to stay like this, because only few people know the exact name....

well ok,the title could stay as it is...
but i think it would be nice,if inside the game,the faction is called Romani'a (Ρωμανία) and the people Romei.(or Rhomaioi)

Yeah of course, we might be able to do that....

Call the Byzantines - Rhomaiki Autokratoria. ~:)

well bibliography:
............................................................

http://www.middleages-totalwar.com/

http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/fo...ic=2479&st=520

Thanks for the info.

Hey guys, looking for some devoted Byzantine and the surrounding area researchers...My current team left the forums...Haven't heard a word from them.... ~:mecry:

You should try to get in contact with a "Romanus" on the RTR forum. I don't know if hes still there, but he helped me out with alot of research..

Btw, we allso call them Romaiki Autokratoria :-)

-Skel-

Thanks for the tip man. ~:) ~:cheers:

Yeah, I saw that. Maybe we'll do that also... ~:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Thanks for the tip man. ~:) ~:cheers:

Yeah, I saw that. Maybe we'll do that also... ~:)

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What the hell? Yeah don't trust someone who speaks the languages fully and who studied Byzantine History in Greece. Pffft. I'm pissed off!!!! No don't talk to me!













~;p

Romanus... yes he's around pm him at twc. He's spending most of his rtw time on the mod I'm working on though. Map making and scripting for Hegemonia. Also rhomoi is a bad name, its sounds too much like rhompoi, which is a bad translation for a kind of sword like weapon, watch your english transliterations. They were Romans. They thought of themselves, called themselves and acted as Romans, call them as they are. Truly you can't refer to them with the term autokratoria, they weren't an empire really, but a state. The empire part occured long before they came to power. MOST of their history they were fighting to remain in control of their land, not expanding.

Hehe Byz Prince. ~D

The only new name would be Romaiki Autokratoria.

Hi Edyz,

Don't let people get you down File!

I just thought of something, instead of "total war" this, "total war" that,
why not "Byzantine Epoch?"

Just thinkin my man!

Yia Sou!~:cheers:

Neah, it's TW and it should be TW. ~D

Is the campaign map ready?
Here you can read about the map of the Carpathian basin.
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org//...howtopic=12181

Magyar names to the age of 976
-------------------------------
MEN
Acsád
Adony
Ajtony
Ákus
Álmus
Apor
Bánk
Bátur
Becse
Béla
Berény
Bogát
Bojta
Bókony
Bors
Bot
Botond
Bökény
Buda
Bulcsu
Csanád
Csege
Cseke
Csepel
Elmér
Előd
Farkas
Gyeicsa
Hollus
Kál
Karád
Kartal
Katapán
Keled
Kerecsen
Ketel
Keve
Kuppány
Kurszán
Küzsdég
Lél
Levedi
Makó
Mikán
Mike
Miske
Móg
Nyárád
Obus
Ócsád
Öden
Özséb
Pozsony
Súr
Szecsőd
Szerénd
Szoárd
Szolnok
Taksony
Tarcal
Tas
Turda
Vajk
Vál
Vata
Zolta
Zoltán
Zombor
Zsolt
Mihály
Ottó
Henrik
László
István
János
Betlehem
Salamon
Sámson
Péter
Kálmán
András
Béla
Gyula
Levente
Imre

WOMEN
Ajánduk
Ajnácska
Áldáska
Arany
Arencsa
Arika
Barót
Bíbur
Bogárd
Bolda
Buga
Csente
Cseperka
Csepke
Csikó
Csillag
Csuda
Delin
Déva
Emesu
Emőke
Enét
Fehéra
Fürti
Gilvád
Gyöngy
Hajna
Havadi
Heta
Jóleán
Karold
Kecse
Köncse
Krabocsa
Lelle
Lente
Mag
Manga
Mikolt
Nyesta
Örsi
Öte
Piriska
Rásdi
Réka
Sáfély
Sarolt
Somocsa
Szecsőke
Szépa
Virág
Rózsa
Viola
Lilium
Mária
Katalin
Zsuzsanna
Ilona


Notes: I tryed to present the old form of the names.
This list fits well to this era until ~1100.

Thanks for the names. ~:cheers:

No, the map isn't finished. Work in progress.

I hoped it. I saw one on the imperium forum.
I must say the Hungarian provinces are very strange. I think I wrote about it earlier but the they remained as they were. I can help dividing the country if you need some help.
To the geographical map see this: http://forums.rometotalrealism.org//...howtopic=12181

I have a question, are there going to be crusades? I realise it's not possible to simulate them the way in MTW, but the hordes in BI might give an answer. How about having several emerging factions that pop up at pre-determined dates, called 1st, 2nd, and 3rd crusade? They'd appear as a horde, and should be coded as to be especially hostile to the islamic factions so they'll probably attack those, with the remote possibility however that they'll attack others, such as happened to Constantinople in 1204.

I don't have BI myself, so I don't know how feasonable this idea is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder

I have a question, are there going to be crusades? I realise it's not possible to simulate them the way in MTW, but the hordes in BI might give an answer. How about having several emerging factions that pop up at pre-determined dates, called 1st, 2nd, and 3rd crusade? They'd appear as a horde, and should be coded as to be especially hostile to the islamic factions so they'll probably attack those, with the remote possibility however that they'll attack others, such as happened to Constantinople in 1204.

I don't have BI myself, so I don't know how feasonable this idea is.

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this is pretty much what we had in mind

Does Byzantium TW cover Belisarius and his campaigns?

No..i think it starts in 976...

Sorry, no. It starts in 976.

We are planning submods with Justinian's Legacy. ~:)

Magyar faction

Taksony
931-972 AS A DEAD LEADER!
wife Katincsa
932-

1. son Gyeicsa faction leader
940-
wife Sarolt
954-
influential wife
short-tempered
made sacrifices to two gods - the Christian one and the old Hungarian god.
dont attack neighbours ->governor type character

2. son Mihály faction heir
944-
wife: Bulgarian princess
we know nothing about him. died very early not known the time.
he can be also a dead character or ill etc.


3. daughter Judit
946-
husband Zoltán
946-
we dont know him. the only known fact he was a relative of the Árpád family and was very old in ~1010.
my suggestion ->governor type character




Gyeicsa's daughter
Judit
972-

Gyeicsa's son István
974-

Mihály's son Vászoly
975-


Most of the names appear in old style.




Strategic map
-------------

The Hungarian army should start with (at least) one German knight unit. Their leader was Vencellin.

In this age arrived more and more missionaries - both Catholic and Orthodox. Athrough the forced baptism start
from ~1000.

I suggest Transylvania to be a rebel province with Magyar culture. Leader character: Gyula.
It shouldn't be very easy to capture. Orthodox temple.
The old Hungarian name of Transylvania is Erdőelve.

Rebels
997 Kuppány character in Pannonia near the lake Balaton. Strong pagan "rebellion". In the reality he was a member of
the regal family but very distant relative of the people above.
1003 Gyula character in Transylvania. see above
1018 Ajtony character southern part of the country. Orthodox christian. If the southern part of Hungary will be a
separate province he can own it from the beginning.
1046 Vata character pagan revolt, peasants and warriors
1076 János character pagan revolt, peasants and warriors
other 3 lesser rebel army in 977, 987, 990.


TEch tree idea
Knights who can be build only where catholic church is built.

Mercenaries:
In Hungary can appear German knight units. Their leaders wear German names of course.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but in the 9th century, there were 3 small factions in Transilvania.

Gelu, Glad and Menumorut. :)

Thanks anyways, and we'll figure it out. A new update is coming!!!! :san_grin:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Sorry to dissapoint you, but in the 9th century, there were 3 small factions in Transilvania.

Gelu, Glad and Menumorut. :)

Thanks anyways, and we'll figure it out. A new update is coming!!!! :san_grin:

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:san_laugh: Yes I heard in your country historians belive in these fantasy tales.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but even if you belive it this tale tells the relations before the Magyar conquest.

*rolling on the floor laughing*

You Hungarians mentioned these factions... :san_laugh: It's called Gesta Hungarorum.

And it's no tale. It's very well known. There are even historical sources and archeological evidence.

Sorry, but you made a mistake here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

*rolling on the floor laughing*

You Hungarians mentioned these factions... :san_laugh: It's called Gesta Hungarorum.

And it's no tale. It's very well known. There are even historical sources and archeological evidence.

Sorry, but you made a mistake here.

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Not we Hungarians but master P. (who called generally as Anonymous) was who made these states-tribes.
The Gesta style in itself is rather a tale than a historical accurate work.
Master P. obviously hadnt already real infos about the conquering. This is understandable he wrote about things what happened 200 years before his era. The modern historians dont belive him because he made a lot very-very important mistakes. Only a little bit: archeologists find Avar presence in the Carpathian basin in the time of the Magyar conquering but master P. dont know about them.
I will translate his major mistakes into English but nowadays I have a lot to do.
I have no time and no reason convincing you.
In 976 Erdőelve (Transylvania) is under the rule of the Gyula who was a separate Magyar tribe leader. (There were more Gyulas. Sarolt, Gyeicsa's wife was the daughter of either Gyula.)

Oh well, believe what you want.
I don't want this thread to be closed anyways.

Do you like the update that we made guys?! :san_grin:

Great stuff! Was it this mod which had the pictures of those particularly striking building models? The one of the Church of St. Sophia (is that the right church :P ). I hope our mod can have towns as impressive as yours!

no we havent done anybuildings yet... you're probably thinking of ChivalryTW...

I'm sure I saw something... oh well my mistake. The rest of the mod is looking great too.

We'll do buildings also. :)

I'll be impressive, trust me. :san_grin:

ok....but the mod goes too slow !

That's because we are in a lack of modders lately....

I'm very sad because of this.

I have a Q: When shall we expect this truly amasing mod?
And another one: Will be able to fight with (not against) the bulgarians, right?

honestly we can't really know when the mod will be done.... and yes you will be able to play as the bulgarians

Yeah, we really can't know unfortunately. We need modders to help us.

:help:

why don't you merge with another mod, you can pool your resources

No way...

We tried this before and it ended like s***.

Here's a little extra for you guys.

Saracen Faris

https://img480.imageshack.us/img480/500/faris4zh.th.jpg

https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/...ris22ty.th.jpg

Nobody likes it?!

Nice work, happy?