Interactive History IV: Manstein's Woes

Relax guys... I'm playing BI... But I haven't forgotten you.

The partisans are less organized than in the real offensive, they didn't have the time to coordinate the big operations. But they are doing what they can to disrupt your lines. But that is far behind the front, and not something you are supposed to take care of, or even worr about.

Model is facing the Central Front's 2nd Tank Army and the 13th Army. They are strong and that is why he has not been able to get a breakthrough. But at the moment it is believed that reserves at sent to halt your attack rather than contain Model with certainty.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Relax guys... I'm playing BI...

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BI? In this context it means Manstein and Barb Invasion, I guess ~;)

Well, Kraxis, there may be more interest in this thread than you realize. I've followed it but haven't posted, and there are probably more people like me. It's very interesting, but one reason I haven't offered my own input is that I'm not very well versed in WWII grand strategy. I've tried out some of the Close Combat games, but that's tactics and is very different.

Also, sometimes I have a hard time keeping a clear idea in my mind of where units and locations are. In the current scenario, I can't remember if Kursk is to the north while the Steppe is to the east, or if it's the other way around. So I'd be more likely than not to steer the campaign off-course.

Although, the regular posters here seem to have gone a bit awry in the past couple of chapters. After first losing the LAH as an effective fighting force, and then losing the vital initiative, Manstein is on the verge of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I agree, however, with those who have said it would be wise to focus on destroying the Russian forces before trying to take Kursk. What is Kursk anyway, but one city? No single city could possibly be the key to victory in this war - even if it were Stalingrad, Leningrad, or Moscow. First priority should be given to destroying the Russian armed forces, as in any war. Once that's achieved, cities and lands can be taken at will. It's just that it would probably have been better to attack the Steppe with decisive force before it was organized than to turn a defend against it, allowing it to completely form. Every delay is costly.

Kursk holds a critical railway junction that will allow lateral transport down the front. Btw, after Kursk, launch another attack towards Tula to retake what was gained in the Rzhev offensive.

Kursk means nothing. Tank operations like Manstein and Guderian want them do not aim the conquest of single towns. They aim the destruction of the enemy's armies. Towns will then be yours anyway. That is a different view than Hitler's though.
In our game the target is to encircle the forces that are still westwards of Kursk. If I am right, there should be two fronts: the CENTRAL FRONT and the VORONEZH FRONT. If we manage to encircle them and cut off their connection to the eastern armies the third front (STEPPE FRONT) will have to attack us and we can destroy them too. So the target of this operation is the destruction of three Soviet fronts with 2,000 to 4,000 tanksand maybe a miliion red army soldiers.

Kraxis, does my picture fit to our intelligence reports? :book:

P.S.: Commodus is right. There are more than 1,700 views on your story. So there is a high interest. (Even though most of them are my views ~;) )
P.P.S: Kraxis: Just read that every SS formation had its own Flak unit (unlike similar Wehrmachts-units.) So I think it is quite unlikely that Manstein took their own FLAK away from the Leibstandarte.

Kraxis,
this is killing me! :hanged: How can you stop right in the middle of our attack?:charge:

I agree,give us more.Pleaaseee?~:grouphug:

Franconius that is a good picture, but don't expect a million enemies taken out. In total there is about a million Russian troops, but that includes those on the outside. The number of tanks is quite substantial, true, but we are early in the year.

The SS had their own units of AA? Hmm... well it doesn't really change the situation that happened. There was AA present, but most of the inherent AA had moved out early if you remember (Kurt Meyer complained of that).

Kempf's Deathride

The lack of progress and of contact with the enemy is problematic to you. Hoth is fuming at sitting still, and even Hitler and Guderian has called to ask what is going on. Though Guderian understood your situation he was very much on the side of Hoth, and Hitler was on the verge of a hysterical rage, he demanded further aggressive actions.
To soothe everyone and your own doubts as to what is out there, you call up Kempf: "Kempf, can you send the 3rd Panzer Corps eastwards towards the ominous 'Steppe'?"
"What do you want? My forces can' defeat an enemy of that size..."
"I don't want you to, I just want to know what is out there."
"And you are willing to sacrifice my armoured components?"
"Come on... What am I supposed to do? Somethign has to be done."
"Yeah yeah... We will roll in a few hours."

The advance of 3rd Panzer Corps is swift and rapid, the entire front seems abandoned. Only a few AT ambushes are discovered and some recon forces are brushed aside. Kempf makes sure his forces aren't advanced apart, so the advance itself is a bit slower than expected, but the Corps is a coherent and strong formation still.
5km from the Prokhorovka railroad the Corps makes contact with some light armour formations, T-70s. In a general Russian way they do not give way until mostly destroyed, their infantry breaks and rushes to the rear as the tanks fall back, giving them cover. It is a disciplined withdrawal.
The tanks of 7th Panzer Division tries to take advantage of the withdrawal and rushes after the Russians, but just as the first tanks clear a small crest they halt. The radio chatter increases to a continuous yell as more and more tank commanders blurt out surprises and warnings. They have stumbled into a massive Russian tankforce, several hundred tanks await them one kilometer away, and a furious figth ensues. The 7th Panzers retreat to the crest again and try to hold the Russians but numbers are too great and they fall back.

Within the hour the entire Corps is involved in the fight, artillery and airforces strikes hard, but it seems the Russians were less prepared than the initial contact indicated.
The few prisoners taken during the engagement with the light tanks makes it clear who you are dealing with. They all say the same, they are part of 5th Guards Tanks Army of the Steppe Front. Their haughty and confident posture is vastly different from the usual inevitable broken looks of the Russian prisoners.

All through the engagement Hoth almost begs to be allowed to attack, but you know he will never reach the battle before darkness, you do however advance slowly towards the east to get closer.
During the day Totenkopf also locks heads with the 31st Tank Corps, though neither side tries to advance on its enemy.
And finally, aireal recon indicates that the Russian forces at the head of the bulge are beginning to pack up and move eastwards. It is the beginning of a withdrawal.

Model's advance today was again slow, but faster than yesterday, it seems his tanks have finally broken the back of their opponents, it helped a great deal that the ridge of hills had been taken early and his tanks could now roam on flat plains where the superior gunnery and tactics could inflict staggering losses on the Russians.

Trouble is brewing, but you don't know if you can spare enough to deal with it all.

1) Unleash Hoth towards the east, let him have everything but Totenkopf and LAH, these two will then guards against 31st Tank Corps.

2) Deal with both 31st Tank army and 5th Guards Tanks Army. Totenkopf and Das Reich will encircle 31st while the rest will strike east fast and hard to relieve 3rd Panzer Corps. This does not involve any complicated maneuvering of your forces.

3) Retreat 3rd Panzer Corps to the front again. 5th Guards Tanks Army will follow it and fall into the trap where you can destroy them as a force of maneuver. But who knows, they might not follow 3rd Panzer Corps.

4) 3rd Panzer has occupied 5th Guards Tanks Army for now. They won't be able to strike at you, you have free reign to advance on Kursk. You might be able to close the gap with Model and both deal with 5th GT Army when it fianlly comes. Sadly this migth cost you 3rd Panzer Corps.

Number 2.We are back in business again.:bow:

Yes, 2 is the one!

We are in business, again!
:curtain:

Thank you, Kraxis!

#2, and try to get reinforcements for LAH while you're at it.

THANK YOU KRAXIS!!!

2 is the way to go, right now, before the reds get away.

2. Deal with the annoyance that is the 31st Russian tank division and in the same time rescue the 3rd Panzer Corps, this way your forces' attention will be undivided. Kursk can wait. If the Steppe army is destroyed, then Russia is down.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Kempf's Deathride

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Kraxis,the title of the last chapter is really scarying.~:eek:
By the way, we should replace Kempf. We cannot use a tank commander who is scared to attack enemy forces. He did not even know their size.:no:

Well, option 2 looks like the consensus, but I think I would have chosen option 1. Here's my ignorant analysis:

The general situation: the Russians in the bulge are now attempting to escape (our earlier hesitation having allowed this), so it's important to close the gap quickly. The Russian forces have suffered severe losses, and my guess is that the Steppe is here mainly to cover their retreat. Our objective should be to destroy the Steppe first, then link up with Model in Kursk, cutting off the Russian retreat.

Now for the individual options:

1. This gives us the maximum amount of force to fight the Steppe as quickly as possible. The 31st may cause some trouble, but Totenkopf and the weakened LAH should be able to at least delay it long enough.

2. This is my second-favorite option. It's strong and aggressive, but it weakens the forces sent to fight the Steppe and doesn't make use of the maneuvering abilities at which our forces are so adept. If that battle turns into a bloody stalemate, all will be lost. The Russians can afford it; we can't.

3. If, as I deem, the Steppe is mainly here to cover the Russian retreat, I doubt the Steppe will follow. We've had too much delay as it is; we can't afford more. This is probably the worst option.

4. This is a tricky one, as I like the idea of combining forces with Model for stronger, more unified operations. However, we may not be able to afford the sacrifice of 3rd Panzer. If Kempf is overrun quickly, the Steppe will be able to threaten our advance more than we think, and we may have to turn and face it. Let's get our priorities straight: first destroy the Steppe, then advance to Kursk.

In general, the last few decisions have gone awry, but I can understand why. It seems clear now that the right choices would have involved bold attacks to the east/north, even without knowing the strength of enemy forces. However, people were understandably loth to do this, as it's a tremendous risk - instead, they chose to bide their time and find out what the enemy possessed before committing full forces.

BTW, doesn't it violate some principle of Sun Tzu to fight the enemy when you don't know what they have? Come on, Kraxis, we're a bunch of TW gamers here - what do you expect us to choose?

Kommodus, excellent analysis. However I'd rather sack two fronts and let the Steppe attack me!

Kraxis, do you have a new award? What is it for? Normally you only get it after a successful battle ~;)

Haha... No, no new award. Check it up it is rather old actually. And I'm a little sad that my 2002 HOF award isn't shown, but what the heck. So I haven't gained a star... It is just an old Trait that has become more visible.

Well done Kommodus.
While Sun Tzu says you should know your enemy he also says you should attack him when unprepared. So it was a situation where people had to guage the situation...

Btw, a Death Ride isn't always a physical one. It can just be one where the results could end up deadly. Think of the German battlecruisers' Death Ride at Jutland, not a single ship was lost.

The Visage of 'The Steppe'

That 31st Tank Corps is simply too much for you to bear. "Wipe it out!" You bark at Hoth. "Send Das Reich to help Totenkopf. They must attack pre-dawn and encircle it."
Hoth smiles weakly but gets on it. Meanwhile you keep an eye on the progress in the night. You shold be able to hit the Russians in the morning. But you feel rather neutered. With only GD, 11th Panzer, Kampfgrupper Heidekamp and Kampgruppe Student (though Student is no longer in charge) as serious armoured formations supported by the weakly armoured 3rd Panzer and the weakened LAH, 332nd and 167th, but at least 255th is fairly strong still in StuGs.

It is problematic to say the least. While 3rd Panzer Corps was nowhere near as strong as your 2nd SS Panzer Corps it is still very strong and it is being pushed hard, even now in the night. The forces at your disposal might not be enough... But it needs to be done, Kempf is in trouble.
The line is staggered by all the odd formations and groups, you deside to clean it up by incorporating Kampfgruppe Student into LAH. That should give it a strong punch, meanwhile you have made sure that many of the tankcrews without tanks have been issued with captured T-34s from the various forces and in particular the 2nd GT Corps. It has been hard to coordinate the ammunition and fuel (since it is diesel which German tanks don't use) but at least you now have a division sized kampfgruppe in LAH, though it still lacks artillery and trucks. You let the infantry piggyback on the tanks and all kinds of vehicles. Thus you let LAH lead the attack. The T-34s with infantry should look rather Russian and thus very confusing for the 5th GT Army.

Finally you can see light on the eastern horizon, hundred of planes once again fly towards their targets. This time the battleground in front of the 3rd Panzer Corp. Already fighters are locking horns, the occational bright burning plane or explosion disrupts the beautiful morning. You shake your head at the insanity, then walk inside as your artillery opens up with all it's fury, answered in kind by Russian artillery.
You are brought out of your little trance by a call, its Kempf.

"Herr Fieldmarshall. The Russian attacks are intensifying... I doubt I can hang on much longer. Losses have been heavy. Several smaller units have been cut off. Tanks dwindling fast... I'm having serious trouble keeping the Corps together, the Russians are attacking down our middle."
"Relax! It won't be much longer. Keep falling back, never present an opening and you are safe. The Russians are never good at attacking without their artillery."
Some confidence bounces back into Kempf an he signs off. Meanwhile the thunder of artillery rumbles on as some T-34s pass your HQ. The atack has started.

Das Reich, rested and strong sweeps with great speed around the side of 31st Tank Corps. Surprisingly it responds by turning to face this threat and a furious tankbattle begins. Totenkopf, more tired and worn out acts a bit slower but it quickly moves up anyway. The turned Russian Corps begins to fall apart with the threat in their rear, and the battle winds down as the troops begin a headlong retreat. Though harried by the armoured forces there was to be no encirclement, but at least the armoured components are either destroyed or dispersed.

The main attack lead by the newly envigourated LAH push right into the 5th GT Army. Initial results are very positive. Russian tanks responds to the T-34s with great confusion and they manage to advance deep and fast. But within two hours they are bogged down in battle, the ruse discovered. Right on their heels is Kampfgruppe Heidekamp, and it quickly takes over the battle with the Russian tanks.
Unfortunately 3rd Panzer runs into a prepared position of AT-guns and its limited armoured component suffer serious losses, though an infantry attack dislodges the guns almost right away.
GD advances alongth northern edge of LAH and Kampgruppe Heidekamp. It comes upon a great open shallow valley. At the far end Russian tanks are deploying to attack. The advance halts with contact and GD is pushed back. 11th Panzer quickly rushes to the aid of GD, while Heidekamp lets LAH deal with its local enemies and rushes into the battle too.

Since the moisture of the previous days have evaporated the valley soon becomes a dustbowl. Hundred of tanks advance on each other, fight a swirling melee.
You sit on a hill overlooking the battle, but you can't do anything to help your boys. They have to win this one themselves. And you don't even know what is going on as the explosions and smokeclouds are nameless. At least the attacks on 3rd Panzer Corps have weakened greatly and the infantry divisions have made contact with it.

The battle drags on, hour after hour the tanks battle each other. You fianlly get a few reports from the divisional commanders. Apparently your tanks are doing very well, but losses are to use the words of a most calm orderly "quite unpleasant." To your great dismay you learn that Heidekamp's Tiger was knocked out and he is now unaccounted for. A young Gruppeführer has taken over command of the Kampfgruppe.
You can't stand it any more... The tank battle is simply too much. You fly at the phone and get hold of Kempf.
"ATTACK!!!!"
"But we are seriously weakened... I doubt we can advance far."
"That is not the point! We need to save our tanks, you will get full artillery and aireal support as well as LAH and my infantry. Now ATTACK!!!! For the sake of Germany do it!"
"Yes Herr Fieldmarshall." You sense a bit of venom in that confimation but you think let him hate me as long as he obeys.

Within minutes the artillery bellows again, this time into the woods occupied by Russian infantry and AT-guns. Soon afterwards you can make out the shapes of StuGs and even T-34s advancing on the woods with small shapes in their wake. A Russian barrage hits the advancing troops but they keep moving at an even higher pace. The Russian AT-guns open up and soon a full and furious battle between the guns and the armoured vehicles develops. Under this fire the infantry engages the Russian infantry. The horrors of battle come crashing down on you. As you look you see entire platoons cut down machineguns, men flung high into the air by explosions, but the determination of the attackers carry the day, and the defences are broken. The sounds of battle continue in the woods but they are moving closer and closer towards the area where the Russians are attacking from. Apparently there isn't any stopping Kempf now.

You listen in on the radiochatter, and the battle in valley is indeed overwhelming. Guns firing, men screming as their tanks are hit, commands and orders flying. "Kleine, watch out, T-34 on your flank!" "Cover me, my tracks are gone!" "BAIL OUT!!!!" But soon the chatter becomes more usual "T-34 300 meters, engage." "T-70s retreating, should we follow?" "Where is that ammo?!" "Follow only to edge of valley..." The battle is winding down and the Russians are conseeding you the field.

As night falls you call for all attacks to halt, unless they are on the verge of winning a strong position.

You look at the battlefield... hundreds of tanks are left. Some burning, some smoking, others seemingly undamaged. Some are even entangled.
As night falls you get reports of the battles. Kempf and your infantry managed to drive hard into the stagingareas, where they were thrown again by the retreating tanks. Apparently the Russians are more than just intact as a fighting force, they are ready to fight if need be. The losses to he infantry have been quite heavy, though after the advacne over the open terrain losses declined sharply.

The losses in the valley have been staggering. Some companies were wiped out entirely, other are down to one or two tanks, but worst of all is the fact that Kampfgruppe Heidekamp, which covered the weaker Panzer IVs by staying in front suffered serious losses. Of their total 60% have been knocked out and another 30% damaged. It is estimated that no less than 12 Tigers and 17 Panther are lost entirely. At best it can only return to some 40 combatready heavy tanks, the Panzer IIIs of the formation managed to survive better by keeping close to the bigger tanks and picking off flankers.
Losses among the crews have been devastating. Few have so far made it to the rear, though it is suspected that there are still many hiding under or near knocked out tanks.
At least you can console yourself with the fact that the Russians threw everything at you, and couldn't stop you. Their losses are estimated in several hundred, but so far nothing is certain.

For once Hoth is not pacing the room or arguing with you. His usually strong and vibrant eyes are dead and cold. "That's it Erich... I doubt we can move on now."

Just then a report from Model arrives. He is advancing with great speed, today he finally defeated the last Russian mobile forces opposing him. He will keep advancing through the night

Hoth has nothing to say, he just sulks. Kempf is busing tidying up his forces. You have to make up you mind yourself.

1) Now that you have defeated Rotmistrov and his 5th GT Army you can finally close the gap. Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front and pool them with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Then advance to the east of Kursk.

2) Stay put with your current forces and keep an eye on the Steppe Front, while Das Reich and Totenkopf advances towards the east of Kursk. You are certain that his i enough to contain them, but perhaps the two SS divions aren't enough to close the gap.

3) Reform your line to be longer, meaning you advacne somewhat north, but lets Model close the gap and finish the job. Trouble is just that the now fleeing Russians get more time and might be able to put aforce in the way of Model since there is not threat to their rear.

4) Pursue Rotmistrov and 5th GT Army. You should be able to defeat it, perhaps totally. With it out of the picture you could move more securely on the gap. Problem is just that this might take days. And in that time the trapped forces can escape.

Well we're in a position where every choice can be deadly. But I believe we need to keep the initiative. So number 1 it is. ~:)

1). Join with Model. The we close the gap and join our forces!~:cheers:

I do not want to go 1) although it seems 1) it is...

1) will leave us poorly defended on the Steppe

I would have liked 2) more.

deleted, sorry double post, tehnical problems...

deleted, triple post, sorry, tehnical glitch

number 1.Destroy the Steppe and you have won.:bow:

1) Now that you have defeated Rotmistrov and his 5th GT Army you can finally close the gap. Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front and pool them with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Then advance to the east of Kursk.

Only #1 seems like a good option. However, this seems suspiciously like a trap. The Russians know and they know clearly that the plan is to attack where option #1 will currently attack. I'll go with #1 for now.... I just pray that they don't suddenly counterattack with a dozen of their armies.

Well, it is indeed a pretty pickle we find ourselves in. It is as I feared - the forces sent to fight the Steppe were not strong enough for any more than a phyric victory. They got bogged down in a brutal battle of attrition which the Russians could afford, but we could not. We now have few intact divisions with which to do much of anything; Hoth's despair is understandable.

Now for my ignorant analysis of the remaining options, none of which are very enticing:

1. This seems to be the consensus, but alas, it invites disaster. The 5th GT Army has proven that, despite being defeated, it can still pose a significant threat. This option, which essentially ignores it and drives toward Kursk, will invite a counterattack that could threaten the whole operation.

2. This would be my choice. Das Reich and Totenkopf are probably our two strongest remaining divisions. They might not be enough to close the gap, but at least we don't leave Model alone to do the job (like option 3) or ignore the Steppe (like option 1). If most of the resistance to the north is already gone, which I believe it is, these two divisions should be enough.

3. With this option, the risk is significant that the Russians fleeing the bulge will block Model and escape. It's static, it gives up the initiative, and it's likely to make people like Guderian and Hitler angry, who must already be fed up with earlier delays that have proved so costly. It may be safe, but it has little chance of ultimate success.

4. With this option, the Russians in the bulge will almost certainly escape. This will mean the failure of the entire operation, even if the Steppe is destroyed. With our own forces badly mauled, we need to link up with Model - even if only with part of our forces. Why go on a wild chase after the remnants of the Steppe, when the true objective lies elsewhere? We need to focus on that objective, while making sure the Steppe doesn't come back to bite us in the rear.

So option 2 seems like the right one to me. It gives us a relatively strong chance of closing the gap, while minimizing the risk of a Russian counterattack. This may be our last chance to salvage a floundering operation. Unfortunately, due to earlier responses, that chance may already be lost...

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Kommodus, excellent analysis. However I'd rather sack two fronts and let the Steppe attack me!

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But as you can see, the chosen option did lead to an attack on the Steppe - only with insufficient forces to force a decisive outcome. Besides, our forces are better used in some kind of offensive blitzkrieg, not a static defense. This isn't a Total War game; waiting for the enemy to come to us won't work.

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

number 1.Destroy the Steppe and you have won.

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Option 1 doesn't destroy the Steppe; it ignores it. Option 4 pursues the Steppe to its destruction, but it doesn't complete the operation either. Our objective isn't to destroy the remnants of the defeated Steppe, but to close the bulge and trap large numbers of Russian forces inside.

1) Now that you have defeated Rotmistrov and his 5th GT Army you can finally close the gap. Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front and pool them with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Then advance to the east of Kursk.

Kommodus.I dont know if i misread the option.But i think, i thought i was concentrating my forces against the "Steppe".And i also thought that the Steppe is the Russian reserve army group in the Central Russian front.Its the only active Russian armygroup in the area anymore.The rest have been beaten.The little i understand about operations in Srategig depth of the enemy is that you are there to destroy the enemy.There isnt really anything important in the sector besides The "Steppe".But i maybe also wrong.:bow:

Option 1 means an advance on the gap with most of the mobile units.

There are the about 800.000 Russians troops inside the bulge.
The Steppe Front is obviously not as strong as its historical counterpart (as with so much), but it is true that its formations are about the only operational formations left.

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

Kommodus.I dont know if i misread the option.But i think, i thought i was concentrating my forces against the "Steppe".And i also thought that the Steppe is the Russian reserve army group in the Central Russian front.Its the only active Russian armygroup in the area anymore.The rest have been beaten.The little i understand about operations in Srategig depth of the enemy is that you are there to destroy the enemy.There isnt really anything important in the sector besides The "Steppe".But i maybe also wrong.:bow:

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My understanding is that the "Steppe" refers to the 5th GT Army of the Steppe front. Perhaps you will recall reading, a few chapters ago, about our first encounter with this force, when the 3rd Panzer went on a reconaissance in force:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

The few prisoners taken during the engagement with the light tanks makes it clear who you are dealing with. They all say the same, they are part of 5th Guards Tanks Army of the Steppe Front. Their haughty and confident posture is vastly different from the usual inevitable broken looks of the Russian prisoners.

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Therefore, option 1 withdraws forces from the front facing the "Steppe" and concentrates them elsewhere. I understand your confusion, but the option did say, "Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front". It's clear that this does the opposite of what you were hoping for.

Naturally I was hoping for a different course of action. The 5th GT Army may be defeated, but it's not destroyed yet and shouldn't be ignored.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kommodus

But as you can see, the chosen option did lead to an attack on the Steppe - only with insufficient forces to force a decisive outcome. Besides, our forces are better used in some kind of offensive blitzkrieg, not a static defense. This isn't a Total War game; waiting for the enemy to come to us won't work.

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Kommodus, we have to jobs to do: closing the gap and shatter the Steppe. None can wait. Our offensive divisions are not able to do both. So you have to eather split your mobile forces (~:confused: ) or you have to concentrate on one target and leave the other one to the defensive divisions.
So I would suggest to close the gap with our remaining offensive forces and to build a defensive line against the Steppe. You say that this is not in line with Blitzkrieg. I doubt that. Blitz mean concentrate on the most important target. You know that Rommel used to do the same. Let the enemy attack your ATG position until its offensive potential is wasted. Our ATG and 8.8 Flak and Jagdpanzer will do the job. And the Luftwaffe can help.
If we close the gap, the Steppe has to attack and we know where and when. That is all we need to know to stop them.
It was a mistake to fight the Russian tank concentration face to face with our tanks.

I may not have been participating (mainly because I always am too late ~D ), but I have been following this with great interest and comparing my choices to those of the others. However, for the last three choices I seem to have misjudged the situation. I feel I am in need of a tactical update.

Which units (German and Russian) are were and how strong are they? ~:confused:

This is the situation as far as I can see:

Manstein's troops managed to brake through the lines. 'Das Reich' and 'Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler' had severe losses. So they were put behind the first lines. Model finally managed to break through, too. He had losses but his units seem to be intact.
Manstein managed to beat all big armored formation of the defensive line. The rest is threatend to be cut off and not able for a assive attack. They are about to flee. Biggest problem is the Steppe - the strategic reserve of the Soviets. We fought it in a big tank battle. We managed to push them back, but our losses are big. 3rd Panzerkorp and Kempf were hit hard and are no longer a strong tank formation.

So we have:
SS Totenkopf - still strong
SS - Reich - Weakened but recovered
SS Leibstandarte - Refilled and rested

The Soviets have:
The Steppe - we know we hit them hard. But in fact we still do not know if there are more Tank units in the Steppe and how strong they are now.

So the alternatives are:
1) Attack the Steppe and try to decide the battle here. Let Model do the job of closing the gap.
2) Hurry to Model, encircle big parts of the Russian armies. Stop the Steppe (if it is still able to attack) with infantry units. Then go back with the joined Manstein and Model tanks and give the Steppe the rest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

So we have:
SS Totenkopf - still strong
SS - Reich - Weakened but recovered
SS Leibstandarte - Refilled and rested

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Very close...

Das Reich is only slightly weakened at the moment. It was pulled back due to exhaustion more than losses.
LAH is certainly not refilled, it has been given the recovered T-34s as a stopgap meassure. It still lacks basically all other types of vehicles. It is hardly very mobile at the moment. It will not move along with the attack north.

Then there is Grossdeutchland, it was strong and ready but now it is severely weakened due to the massive tankbattle. Its infantry is still strong enough, but the tanks and other mobile forces are depleted.
11th Panzer, a good formation to start with is not as weakened as GD due to having been on the flanks, but it too lost a lot of its tanks, and it was already a bit weakened from losses and the fact that is was never brought up to strength.
Kampfgruppe Heidekamp is not dead, but it is close to it. Its losses were very heavy, and this time they will not just come back from the shops. The loss of its commander has also left it in a bit of confusion as his XO got killed early. The commander of the Panthers have taken over, but he is inexperienced in commanding large units outside the tactical field.
3rd Panzer was never a strong armoured formation, and now it is basically little more than a handful of tanks attached to some motorized infantry. It is still very mobile, but lacks the mailed fist.
3rd Panzer Corps is out for the count. It has suffered extremely heavy in terms of tanks and its infantry has suffered serious losses in the last push.
The 332nd is still combatready despite heavy losses early on. Given it's low rank it hasn't recieved any replacements or much other. All its mobile forces are lost.
The 167th is in a similar state, it lost its mobile components to the massive Russian airattack on the traficjam. Its infantry suffered heavy losses in the closing hours of the great tankbattle.
The 255th is still a strong infantrydivision. Its StuGs did suffer losses in that last push, but its infantry went in last and thus was spared the most horrific losses.

Ok, ok, obviously losses are getting heavy, and attrition is taking an enormous toll. Quickly try to reorganize our forces, forming a new grouping of whatever armored vehicles and motorized infantry we can scrape together, then smash what's left of the Russians while closing the gap as quickly as possible. I just pray that the Russians don't pull more reserves out from their asses in order to flank our forces. My fear is that the Steppe was just a ruse to deplete our forces before the actual Russian forces attack our lines. Use the infantry to defend the gap against any attacks, have them get ready to dig trench lines and plant a ton of mines so that the Russians can't attack at that point. Meanwhile, demand as many reinforcements as possible, the Kursk salient is a big place and the Russians can attack from any number of directions, including breaking out from behind in the western part of the salient.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Kommodus, we have to jobs to do: closing the gap and shatter the Steppe. None can wait. Our offensive divisions are not able to do both. So you have to eather split your mobile forces (~:confused: ) or you have to concentrate on one target and leave the other one to the defensive divisions.

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You and I are talking about two different things. When I said "the chosen option did lead to an attack on the Steppe", I meant the previous decision, which precipitated the massive tank battle, not the decision we are faced with now. Back then, I was puzzled by your comment that you wanted to sack two fronts and let the Steppe attack us, when you had voted for an option that called for an attack on the Steppe and the 31st at the same time.

Now, of course, the situation is different, and of course you are right - we do have two jobs, just as you said, and our offensive divisions certainly can't do both. What you and I want is in fact very similar - we both want to help Model close the gap, while guarding against the Steppe. The only difference is this:

1. You want to pull all mobile forces away from the Steppe front and let the infantry and artillery hold off the Russians in case of a counterattack. This might be the right decision, but I'm simply concerned that it won't be enough to stop them. The Russians still have a number of tanks left; do we really want to face them with no tanks of our own? I would rather leave some tanks behind to keep that front relatively strong.

2. I want to use two of our armoured divisions (Das Reich and Totenkopf) to close the gap, leaving the forces on the Steppe front where they are. As Kraxis pointed out, they are our strongest remaining armoured divisions. Those on the Steppe front are severely weakened, and I doubt they'd provide much additional offensive impetus anyway. They are all badly mauled and could not be expected to do much on the offensive for some time. That's why I say, let them rest, hold tight, and aid in defense.

In answer to the contention that Das Reich and Totenkopf will not be enough to close the gap - of course this is true. But they won't be alone; they'll simply be aiding Model. It's better than leaving the entire job up to him.

I suppose enough people have voted, and the decision is already made. My dear Franconicus, we will soon find out if you are right or if the battle is lost. :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kommodus

I suppose enough people have voted, and the decision is already made. My dear Franconicus, we will soon find out if you are right or if the battle is lost. :-)

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Yes! Let the battle begin ~:cheers:

Thanks Franconicus and Kraxis. I still have trouble grasping the situation, but that is probably my own fault for reading just after the lectures. :book: :dizzy2:

Ludens, do not worry! Being confused is the natural state during battle. I doubt that most commanders really know what their armies are doing during battle. ~;)

Although most of our troops are exhausted and we lost most of our tanks there is no reason to be sad. What the hell did we expect. Most important thing is that the enemy is in an even worse condition. Two fronts are broken and actually out of business. Steppe is hit hard. I do not expect them to just have been as strong as one of the two other fronts. And I think we destroyed almost all their tanks. (Well, at least I hope so). Model is still very strong and Manstein should be able to deal with Steppe too. So what we have to do is make our victory a total one. :charge: Close the gap, arrest the forces in there, shatter the rest of the Steppe when they try in vain to break through and then march to the Don and built a new defensive line there.

There were some questions about the goals of this operation. Let me summarize my view – although I guess most of this is obvious.

Hitler’s vision was to conquer the USSR, to erase communism and to kill or enslave the Russian population. He recognized that he could not do this without fighting France. To avoid a war on two fronts he wanted to fight France first. However, he believed to get a gentlemen’s agreement with GB. His first steps should be the reunion of all Germans and the creation of a strong army and the control of central Europe. All these thoughts were done in the 20ies.

1939 - Attacking Poland was his last step to get ready for war. Hitler’s plans were always a win or loose strategy. Due to the performance of the German army and the hesitating French and English he won this war.

1940 – Next on his list was France. Again his campaign was an outstanding success. However, he did not know what to do with GB. He was not prepared and he did not really want to conquer Britain. GB did not want to make peace – so Hitler was forced to change his plans. The new strategy was to attack the USSR within some weeks and then attack GB. With the bigger industry and the back secured the Germans would create a bigger air force and a big submarine force.

1941 – After big successes the German attack was stopped before Moscow. So the German strategy of a short war against Russia failed. GB was getting stronger and the US coming closer to war. Hitler’s strategy had failed. There was no alternative plan how to win the war.

1942 – After losses in winter the Germans tried to beat the Russians this summer. They managed to surprise the Russians by attack on the south front. After successes they had the disaster of Stalingrad. It was clear that a victory in Russia was still far.

1943 – The situation was very critical for the Germans. The Turks made the final decision not to join the war against Russia. German allies thought how they could end the engagement. The USA appeared in Africa and in the sky.
Germany had 159 more or less exhausted divisions at the eastern front. The USSR had 400. So it was impossible to come to a final victory this year. But Hitler needed to have a victory for political reasons.
So the goals of Zitadelle were:
- an impressive military victory to impress other nations
- to take as many Russian units out of the game as possible to avoid a Soviet attack this summer and to release some divisions for the western theatre.
- to gain a good defensive position
The Russians tried to use the same strategy as they did at Moscow and Stalingrad. Start with defensive until the German tank forces are exhausted, then start a big counterattack.

Look, the decision is already made. The gap will be closed.... And I fear that it might be impossible to hold. Not with 800,000 desperate Russian soldiers in that pocket and the fact that the Russians will rush as many troops to the Kursk region as possible in order to break the Russians out of the pocket. The pincer at the neck is the anvil, but we lack the hammer.

Kraxis,
what is going on at the front? Is the battle over? Did we win?

I'm not too sure you need to worry too much about the russian's inside trying to break out, depending on the strenght of their mobile forces. Russians outside trying to relieve them is another matter. Kraxis, what is the strength of the Russian armor inside the pocket to be and outside for that matter?

And we all love you Kraxis!

I think why Kraxis have not anawered is that we won the battle in Strategig wiew first time,in his interactitie history,but none of s would like to win in real life .:bow:

Nah... We are dealing with von Manstein, an honourable man (though not perfect). And by limiting it to him we are free... Or at least that is how I think about it.

I will post the next chapter tomorrow.

Thanks m8!~:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

I will post the next chapter tomorrow.

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:cheerleader: :dancing: :dancinglock: :knuddel:

And we all love you Kraxis!
That is true!

A Full Bag or What?

Looking at the map, then over at the lethargic Hoth, then back again you realize you need to finish this now and here. This kind of figthing will just drain you too fast.
The Russians are being counted out as it seems, but they might get onto their feet again. But you argue with yourself that you can't afford to not risk this.

You move the markers for GD, 11th and 3rd Panzers out of the line and towards the north to join up with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Kampfgruppe Heidekamp is too weak to move and LAH is too immobile, while 3rd Panzer Corps is depleted. To cover the gap in the line you drag the infantry divisions out a bit, ending with the strongest, 255th at the north shoulder, while 3rd Panzer Corps still controls the southern shoulder and LAH is in the ceter with Kampfgrupper Heidekamp in local reserve.
You smile at this. A strong line, made out of weak units, that is always something to be proud of.

You turn to Hoth and gives him his instructions to gather the mobile forces for the drive north. His usual lively reaction does not appear, but at least he looks less gloomy.

During the night GD, 11th and 3rd Panzer files north while the remaining units begin to cover their areas. Due to them being positoned close to each other with no units between them the moveout is smooth and fast. You are not even certain that the Russians know you have repositioned your troops.
When dawn breaks Totenkopf and Das Reich leads the attack, and this time there will no stopping them, they will drive through the night if need be.
Model advances south at a good pace, though he is dogged with fighting retreating Russian columns, but their lack of tanks and ready guns leave them easy prey for the tanks of his Army.

Your own tanks advance fast, brushing aside the light units opposing them, generally recon units in armoured cars, but also cavalry and AA units. The Russian airforces attack them in furious attacks but now that the fighting south have halted your own airforces cover the attacks and the airwar turns intense like nothing before. The Russians know they need to halt the attack while your men know they need to keep it free. The concentration of forces lead to one of the greatest airbattles on the frontlines. More than 1000 German planes defend the attacking columns from more than 1600 Russian planes. The sky is filled with black spots swirling, burning and crashing.
While many attacks make it through the cover they are met by determined AA, and their individual status makes it hard for them to make proper attackruns. At one point the Russians finally seem to get the upper hand and more planes manage to get through, but fate would have it that Model ordered that his own cover to fly south and help out. They arrive just in time to stem the tide until planes returning from rearming and refueling can take over again.

You follow the deadly dogfights with great interest. This is the decisive moment, you can't keep out of it.
Suddenly, just as the assault is getting near to the outskirts of Kursk, around 2 o'clock, reports from the infantry line come in. They are under heavy attacks, infantry, tanks everything you can imagine being used are thrown at them. The attacks are made over a broad front, covering your entire line. Artillerybarrages bombard the entire line, taking the local commanders by surprise. The buildup to the attack had gone unnoticed due to the attentions being fixed on the north.
For hours the attacks keep rolling in. Hundreds of tanks and many thousands of infantry attack headlong at your positions. The entire line is under heavy pressure, but it is holding... Just barely, especially LAH is getting a hammering, but is dishing out serious damage itself and has conseeded not a single position.
You want to pull back some forces to stem the tide, but the lure of Kursk is within your grasp now, and your own attackers have now too met retreating columns of Russian infantry and artillery. While they can afford much resistance it is clear that the Russians are getting well underway to clear out the bulge.

By nighttime your forces have been spread out quite significantly, the northern attack is now a good distance from the fighting down south, while the gap between them and Model's spearheads is a mere 5km, including the vital Kursk railroad, which has been confirmed to be greatly used by now.
What to do?

1a) Your sourthern line is doing well, very well in fact. They can hold on. The Russians are obviously throwing everything at them, and have not managed to break through, so the worst should be over by now.
1b) The same but order a general advance along the entire bulge. This should catch the Russians with their pants down and perhaps cause a collapse, or at least a weakening of the retreating formations. But their positions are still strong.

2) Pull back Das Reich and Totenkopf and hit the attacks in their flanks. They should easily roll up the entire Front. But their punch will be lost when the gap is finally closed. Perhaps Russian forces might escape.

3) Pull back GD, 11th and 3rd Panzer and put them into the line where needed. They are not strong enough for offensive actions against an entire Front. The same problem as in 2 might arise, but this time more pronounce since these forces are more numerous than Das Reich and Totenkopf. But they are less mobile and could perhaps not be able to respond to breakthroughs in the same manner.

1a) even though I am not sure what the order is. I assume it is: go on like planed! ALEA JACTA EST. Let's finish what we started.

I suppose 1a is the way to go, having panzer divisions running back and forth does us no good.~:)

I prefer 1b since I think the Russians are spent and a general attack should be able to mop them up. But 1a sounds good too.

Hmm... difficult to say, the gap has to be closed and it has to be closed immediately, or otherwise, the entire encirclement is shot. The problem is that if the Russian attacks are ignored, they might pull an Ouran on our forces.

Close the gap with DR and Totenkopf, tell the defenders to dig in when the Russians let up. I suspect that the worst hasn't even begun yet...

1a

Bring down Manstien's Mjollnir! :medievalcheers:

It has already been decided, but I will reinterate- 1a. The southern lines may be having difficulty, but if they can hold on long enough, the Russians will be cut off, and Model can send his own soldiers south to hit the flanks. After all, he probably has more men, since he started so late.

Mjollnir? Oh, Thor's hammer. I see...

And I guess 1b. The attacking troops will hold the russians in place, getting more in the bag. But don't press the attacks, except at the neck of course.

This story is drug. I need my kick every day!

:nurse::wacky:

While it doesnt mean much,but 1b,1a is good also but lets just crush the buggers.:knight:

By the way, has anybody a feeling about what date we have?

I guess it's now down to 1a or 1b. I think we're very lucky that the southern line is holding, and I certainly have my doubts that it will continue to do so, but it's too late to pull back some of our armoured forces now. You'll recall I wanted to leave GD, 11th, and 3rd in place to begin with, to guard against exactly the situation we're faced with now. I think Kraxis is being rather kind to us by letting the southern line hold even as long as it has. Regardless, we must capture the Kursk railroad before the Russians use it to bring in more reinforcements.

There seems to be little difference between 1a and 1b at this point. The only question is how long to wait before ordering the general advance along the bulge. If we do it now, we may catch some retreating Russian formations unprepared, but we risk facing positions that are still strong. If we wait and do it later, the defensive positions may be weaker, but we'll have a harder time catching up to the retreating Russians. It would help to know the strength of our forces stationed along the bulge.

I suppose I would advise launching the advance now. If the Russians in the pocket are allowed to remain unmolested too long, they may try an organized breakout against our severely weakened positions. It would also be in our best interest to reduce the pocket as quickly as possible, in case the Russians are bringing reinforcements from the east (as they almost certainly are). So I would suggest 1b over 1a.

Nevertheless, 1a got the most votes early on, so it is the choice, and once again my opinion goes unheeded. However, I'm not as worried this time: 1a may not be the best choice, but it doesn't seem to lead to utter catastrophe, as long as the Russians don't break through our southern line. However, if that happens, then 1b would be equally disastrous, and nothing would save us.

Kommodus, we just need to close a 5km gap with Model, then Model can keep the gap closed while we take DR and TK and attack the Russians in the flank.

Let's face the truth. We won that battle! Don't hesitate to accept this because your are affraid of some 'virtual' Soviet threat.
All we have to do now is to make it a big victory. So let our tanks close the gap, combine with Model. Then let them drive east to the Don. This will be our new line of defense (Hitler will love that!).
Let our infantry take care of the captured Soviets. You should not underestimate them! Though they are not very mobile they have a good combat skill. Unlike infantry in 1939 they have strong defensive abilities in fighting tanks and planes. Let our tanks move and let the infantry do the rest of the job: defense and cracking of strong enemy positions.

No, we haven't won the battle. Again, our forces are tired, depleted and have taken major losses, while the Russians can just bring in more and more men to Kursk, or to any other point on the front. Fighting against so many Russians (and later, the allies) is a losing proposition. All we can do is hold them off for as long as possible.

Demon, Idid not say we won the war, just this battle. Yes, our forces are tired, depleted and have taken major losses. What did you expect? This is a big battle. Even after the French campaign the German forces were tired. But the Russians are in an even worse condition. All their major forces are crushed. All their hopes are shattered. So no reason to hesitate now. If we make this a big victory (capture the Russians in the pocket, beat the remaining Steppe and advance to the Don) Stalin may accept a peace offer. Then we would be able to stop the western allies for years - or at least until they can nuke ~:mecry:
Our infantry divisions are still intact. We did not use them a lot. With their 8.8 flak and the tank destroyers they will give any remaining Steppe unit a warm welcome!

Wow - just come across this thread and have been reading it for 2 days expecting to get to the end of the story - but it is still going.

My view? - well break out the russian phrase books and prepare for a few years in the Siberian summer camps. What if the Germans close the gap - will the 2 men and a dog be able to contain the 800,000 Ruskis in the pocket, while keeping the hordes outside of the pocket out the way as well - I don't think so - the fact that the "defeated Steppe groupe" has been battering the whole line the day after their defeat rather paints the picture. This has Stalingrad written all over it - German army doing well, overreaches itself, Hitler doesn't let them retreat, good night Vienna. This is not the Russian army of 1941, this is the army that has turned the germans back outside Moscow and smashed the 6th Army - and as for breaking through to the Don and Stalin making peace - in your dreams. Uncle Joe didn't think about that when the Germans were at the outskirts of Moscow, so why do it when you know eventually you will win. He wouldn't make peace if the germans made it to Vladivostock.

What is interesting about this alternative Kursk is that potenially it will be more disasterious for the Germans than the original. They are sucked right into the salient and potenially can be enveloped. In the actual they didn't get pulled in so far - the russian defences were much stronger - so they took losses, but when the battle ground to a halt, they were able to extract themselves. So roll on the next episode - I sense impending doom for Manstein and his pals.~:cheers:

Hi King,
welcome to our team! This is a very interesting point of view. If you were right - and you might- Manstein should never tried to attack. I think this is the position of Guderian too.
On the other hand - it looks like the Germans under Kraxis command managed to beat the three strongest fronts the Russians have. Even though the Russians may recover faster than the Germans I guess they need at least half a year to start a major operation. If Germans reach the Don they are quiet close to Moscow and they interrupt the connection between Moscow and Stalingrad. Furthermore they have a very good defensive position so they should be able to stand the winter without trouble.

Will the Germans be able to keep 800,000 Russians in the pocket? Sure. They are beaten and cut off. No problem for German infantry. This is exactly the situation Manstein planed to reach. So why worry now? The hordes outside the pocket? Once the armored divisions of Hgr. Süd and HGr. Mitte are combined they should be able to push the Steppe behind the Don.

If my memory serves I read that there were some kind of peace talks between Ribbentrop and Molotow in spring 1943. They ended because the Soviets wanted the borders of 1941 and the Germans did not want to give up all of the conquered territory. Now after Stalin lost 1,000,000 men and several thousand tanks and Hitler facing the Americans in Italy and after Gomorrha there might have been a chance for peace.~:cheers:

Hi Franconicus

I guess I never see the Russians as the kind of guys to make peace. Their approach to war has always been to exhaust the invader with all that open space. After all Napoleon actually made it to Moscow, but it still didn't do him any good. At best any pact in 1943 would have been a pause, not the end. Stalin's view was that Russia had been invaded from the West 3 times during the 20th century and he wanted a nice ring of barrier states to protect his borders - which is what he got in 1945. Besides the casualties would not have frightened him - after all he killed a fair few of his own people to say the least - all he wanted was security and revenge on the Germans for what they had done to his country.What's more the war was a useful tool to unite the country and for him to impose his stringent central control.

As to the 800,000 troops encircled, my view is that by this period of the war, the russian army was not obsessed with communication links, large numbers of these troops, even if not that well supplied, would have just carried on as partisans, not a massive military threat admittedly, but enough to keep a fair few divisions bogged down keeping the lid on. When the Germans loose their fluidity on the easten front they eventually loose. This happened at the gates of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk and big time in the destruction of Army group Centre in 1944. Russia always seems like a sponge, you just keep hitting, you eventually tire then them come back with hordes you didn't know they had. Despite the massive losses of 1941 and 42, the Russians managed to produce the men and material to at least hold their own in 1943 and to sweep the Germans back to Berlin in 1944/5. So I still hold to my premise that Manstein's woes began in the summer of 1941. Mind you, I still can't wait for the next episode!!~:cheers:

Perhaps you are right and we are overconfident of our success, but if we don't act we will definetly lose. So I say we keep going. No victory without risk!

Unles you have an alternative strategy, off course. If you can convince me, I will change my vote (if it's allowed ~:cool: ).

Hi Ludens

My strategy as Manstein? - well given a free hand, move all my troops back to about Vienna, but I don't think Hitler will smile on this! So, within more narrow parameters, shorten and reenforce my lines, leave the gap at about 5 kms - the german airforce and artillery will destroy the material, tanks, transport, etc a la Falaise Gap - destroying men will not slow the Russians, but material will. The Russians will also have to attack the strengthened line as well, so more chances to favourably wear down their resources. If something goes wrong - where are the nearest Romanians on the German flanks!! - then their necks are not firmly in the noose and it can be withdrawn.

The premise is that the russians having a disaster will not be a big deal. They will draw breathe, wait for winter and come again next year. If the germans have a disaster, the floodgates open and they arrive in Paris about late 1944 - remember they go from about here to berlin in about 10 months in 1944/5 Now that is an interesting scenario - the Warsaw Pact stretches to the Spanish border and the Channel and all Western Europe starts learning russian - so, still want to press on? History is in your hands!!~:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Now that is an interesting scenario - the Warsaw Pact stretches to the Spanish border and the Channel and all Western Europe starts learning russian - so, still want to press on?

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:wideeyed: Heavy! In that case, hell yes- press on! ~:cheers:

King Kurt comes with some very valid points here boys.

But a few facts:

Stalin actually contemplated a seperate peace in early summer of 44... Surprised? I most certainly was. But this was before Bagration and its massive success. Russia was at the time almost bled dry, and another bloody advance could have ended up being just as destructive for Stalin as for the Germans. Besides, Stalin had a evil eye on the western allies for good reason, now it was time for them to bleed. Anyway he discarded the idea as soon as Bagration got underway. So Stalin was not beyond making peace.

The Russian forces contained inside the bulge contained prior to the attack about 70% of the Soviet armoured formations (lesser percentage of tanks though, around 50%) and almost all the Guards formations. This was a carefully built up force, meant to batter the Germans into submission (as history proved it could). Should this elite and wellarmed force get almost humiliated in battle then it qwould be a huge blow to Russian morale
These troops aer not the normal run of the mill Russian conscripts, but the best and most experienced the Soviet Union has to offer. They are not replaceable in the normal sense.

Russian formations were never good at fighting when they got surrounded. Sure individual sections and soldiers fought on, but that is nuisance. The organizations were quickly destroyed, compared to basically every other army out there. The Germans and Japanese being particularly persistant when surrounded.
Even the massive forces (which was actually fairly good) at Kiev broke down within a very short time.
The reason for this? Russian supplydumps were in general quite small, geared for movement (this was actually quite advanced). Each soldier took no more than about 15 rounds with him into battle until around 44, of course submachinegunners carried more and troops in urban environments also carried more. And the artillery was highly expedient of ammo because of the tendency to collect it into massive artillery units (artillery armies were not uncommon).

The forces outside the bulge are for the most part now, infantry as their armoured components have been defeated. They do of course have their own integral armoured units, but the armoured divisions are in general terms spent.
Whether they can push through or not... Well that is to be seen.~;)

Yea, but if these guys are "elite", then Russia would spent ALOT of resources trying to break them out. King Kurt has a point, but I think we should close the gap, then attack the bulge first, before opening up the gap again. That way, the Russian troops will be even more eager to start running.

Stalin and his generals never cared about losses, elite or not. They would have tried to rescue them. But they never managed to rescue captured troops. At our Kiew scenario the hardest thing was to break through and then fight the counter offensive. The rest should be rather easy.

I do not know why we discuss the strategic goals now that we hopefully managed to get a tactical victory. If the goal of encircling and demolish the Russian armies at Kursk was wrong. Manstein should never started this operation. Now it is too late to worry about it.


The strategic questions are:

Was the war lost in spring 1943?
If yes - could the Germans realize it?
If yes - what should they have done?

In spring 1943 German military was still at his top. They ruled most parts of Europe. Manstein demonstrated that he was able to stop the Soviets even when he was outnumbered.
The Western Aliies did not do much to worry Germany. All right, the submarine war was lost, Africa was lost and propably Italy would fall. So what. That does not touch the core of German military power. The bombing of the RAF caused lot of damage but did not effect the industry (in fact it increased the willingness of the German population to fight) and the USSAF was far too weak to be a real threat. So why give up.
Manstein wrote after the war the he still believed that the war could be won in 1943.
Beating the Soviets would have had several effects:
The Soviets would have lost many brigades. It would have taken until spring 1944 to replace them. Even in Russia there is a point where the resistance breaks down. The Ukraine lost 25% of the population in that war. Think of WW1. The loss of 600,000 to 900,000 men would have a big psychological impact on the Russian and German soldiers. Of course the Soviet government was much more successful in motivate and equip the Russians but in the end Stalin had to think about revolts, maybe even from members of his own party. So I guess peace was possible, if not likely.
A big peace in the East would have released some experienced divisions and some industrial capacities to fight the Americans. So their bombing war would not have been successful for long and the landing in Normandy would have been postponed to at least 1945. So Germany would have controlled Europe and its resources for another year.
And regarding the alternatives: kill Hitler, beat the Russians and make peace with the US. That is what Manstein should have done!

Well - stirred the pot up here, haven't I!

I hadn't heard about Stalin looking for peace in 1944. However, I still feel that this would have been a pause for breath, as opposed to lasting peace. Historically, Russia had been threatened from the West for centuries, so I am sure that Stalin with his deep paranoia would look to secure his borders with a ring of buffer states. Also you can't overlook the pathalogical hatred the Russians had for the Germans after the excesses that had occured so far in the war. I visited the then Soviet Union in 1968 as a 16 year old schoolboy. One of the strong memories I have of that trip was the pride of the Russians of their achievement in the war and how it was ingrained into their whole way of life.

In the West, we have always assumed that the Russians judge things on the same values that we do, but history, since Alexander Nevesky has shown that they have a dogged determination to wait until they achieve what they want, at what cost.

As for the tactical situation, I have always thought that the secret of attacking is to know when to stop. Better to get into a position where the enemy must attack you and let them crash against our defenses than to carry on attacking until you run out of men and resources.

But, most impotantantly where is the next episode!~:cheers:

Kurt, we create the gap AFTER we close it and begin to move in to smash the Russians. By applying pressure on the bulge, they will panic more and be more likely to run than fight.

When they run, start massacring them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

As for the tactical situation, I have always thought that the secret of attacking is to know when to stop.:

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You mean like the Germans did at Dunkerque? ~;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Better to get into a position where the enemy must attack you and let them crash against our defenses than to carry on attacking until you run out of men and resources.:

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Like the French did with the Maginot? :hide:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

But, most impotantantly where is the next episode!~:cheers:

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You are absolutely right! ~:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

You mean like the Germans did at Dunkerque? ~;) :

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They stopped for several reasons - a bloody nose at Arras from the British Matildas, so a bit of caution - Hitler's interference - also the british were not the main target of the attack, the french were, so defeating them was the main object. However, this time there was no miracle on the Marne. As well, the british lost all their equipment at Dunkerque, so the main objective was achieved - the British army didn't come back for 4 years to mainland Europe. A relation was in the british retreat to Dunkerque - he found out Arras had fallen by switching on a radio in a deserted house, tuning into the BBC and hearing that Arras had fallen. trouble was, he and his mates were in Arras at the time!! They slipped out at night and made it back to the UK vis Dunkerque. He was actually stationed on the White cliffs of Dover when he got back and he often told of the first few weeks that their platoon only had 1 rifle between them all, so they had to share

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Like the French did with the Maginot? :hide::

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This is a perfect example of what not to do. The Germans had absolutely no reason to attack - they could go round it through Belgium. In our Kursk scenario, the Russians have to attack to get their troops out - that's why the sit and let them attack mode would work.

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

You are absolutely right! ~:cheers:

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And we are still waiting!!!

The Road of Death

You feel the strains of command over the last few weeks. You are severely fatigued, depredations of sleep is finally taking its toll. You shake your head to clear out your thoughts... But the shroud settled almost at once and you give in to the impulse to yawn. At ocne you flex all your muscles to wake up your body and this time the clearness stays on.

Looking at the map you take notice of the heavy attacks on your infantryline. The Russians can't flank you, luckily, but they outnumber you in a great extent and the attacks are persistant. 167th Infantry is being pushed back as enemy formations flow off the wavebraker that is LAH onto it.
You look around the HQ, Hoth is still lethargic, in fact he has gone to sleep in a chair. Apparently his strength has been sapped, he is no good to you for the moment, everybody else seems busy on phones, running around with papers and writing orders. You understand that you can't pull anything out of the attack now, no matter how much you want to. Also doing that would likely just clog up the few roads with troops trying to pass each other on single lanes. No the infantry would have to hold alone... Perhaps not entirely alone... Yes... But Hoth is out for the count, you can't send him, besides his speciality is the attack and his overaggressiveness could cause problems for the defenders. When you think about it, only one candidate is possible, you! But who is going to control the advance?

Suddenly you get a call from the advancing formations. Hausser speaks: "We are encountering heavy resistance. It seems the Russians are putting every tanks and gun in our way to keep us from closing the gap."
That's the guy... You can't believe you had forgoten about the toughneck Hausser, the fatigue must be draining your system.
"Hausser, I'm giving you command of Das Reich, Totenkopf, GD, 11th and 3rd Panzer. I need to go back to the other half of our forces to contain the Russian attacks. Flush out the Russian guns with your infantry, keep the artillery onto the gap. I will send all the planes that can be spared to help you out. Don't push it too hard though, we can't afford to lose too many troops and tanks."
"Yes Herr Field Marshall. And good luck, from what I have heard ou will need it."
"Heh, yes, but aren't I known for my luck?"
"No..."
"Haha... Yeah, I guess so, but that just proves I don't need luck."
You hang up and rush out of the HQ to the staff car. You urge the driver to head southeast to the infantryline.

During the drive through the night, you can hear the rumble of the artillery from the spearheads, and the horizon lights up in flashes. Hausser is carrying out the orders. In front of you you see other flashes, more uncoordinated and more spread out. Clearly a battles between the two sides' artillery, but sadly many of your formations lack artillery. LAH and 167th Infantry have lost theirs, 332nd lost some of theirs early in the battle and 255th never got replacements for the losses they suffered in the winter. At least 3rd Panzer Corps have theirs intact.

Above you, nightfighters and nightbombers play their deadly game of hide-and-seek. Once in a while a streak of flames tumble to the ground. Searchlight on both sides of the front sweep the sky. Tonight the nightbattles are particularly intense, a clear extension of the heavy airbattles of the day. Obviously the Russians are giving it their all, nothing is held back.

When you arrive at your new HQ at Kampgruppe Heidekamp, you instantly begin to demand reports of the divisional commanders. The reports are both depressing and uplifting. Losses are significant, but not in a single place have the line been pierced. The lack of operational armoured forces have meant the Russians haven't been able to put a sufficiently heavy attack onto any specific point. The only concentration of tanks were sent right at LAH and her T-34s, the attack got shredded by the tanks and the AT-guns in support. Clearly the Russians attempted to do the usual of trying to break the central formation, but this time they didn't know that it was in an advanced position and was possibly the strongest in terms of armour.
So all in all your forces have held, and inflicted almost impossible losses on their enemies. One company of 167th Infantry even had to leave their position when their sightlines got blocked by knocked out tanks, trucks and dead, the Russians were deftly using the earlier losses to cover their advance.

The night was long and hard on both you and your troops. Unlike normally, there were no pause betwen attacks, just line after line of attacks. It doesn't look like the nimble and probing work of Rokossovsky. This is an attack of a strong will. You have seen this before... It can't be anything but an urgent demand from Stalin. He must be fuming and boiling in his dacha.

Around the time of dawn you get a break. The attacks peeter out and the front becomes silent. You use the time to redress the lines, shift infantry around to keep the front at full strength. Meanwhile the airbattles come to life with full strength once more, but the low cloudcover and light rains keep the affair from enveloping the groundforces in any significant degree. But at least with the forces under Hausser there is development. The gun-Stukas have a field day shooting up retreating tanks, trucks and trains with their low level attacks. Russian fighters try to drive them out bu the low clouds make great hidingplaces and the Stukas pop in and out. Meanwhile the artillery plays havoc on the retreating Russians, the few roads become a mass of tangled equipment and burning vehicles. But Hausser couldn't budge the blocking forces during the night. Model is having similar troubles, and also has to deal with attacks on his flanks.

Just after breakfast the inferno starts up again. Russian artillery concentrates on the weakened 167th Infantry, and is quickly followed up by a dense mass of tank and infantry, the carnage is extreme as the artillery from the surrounding divisions combine onto this formation. But out of the clouds of dust the Russians appear unscathed and their attack is vicious, the defenders put up a valiant fight but are sent reeling away and in less than an hour 167th is split in half. Despite this it tries to close up again, and now the apparent strength of the Russian attack is shown for what it is, a halfhearted effort. The 167th manage to close the gap, but the remaining tanks andinfantry pour into the rear, fighting with rear area troops, artillery and MPs. The uneven fight is devastating for the already depleted 167th. You saw the trouble even before it unfolded and ordered Kampfgruppe Heidekamp to intercept the enemy. Now it arrives in the nick of time to save the tail of 167th. The heavy tanks rip into the Russian formation, the enemy taken completely by surprise as they had been gleefully cutting down rear area troops. The potential disaster is averted.

For hours the Russians keep up the attacks with masses of infantry, but without their tanks they stand little chance of actually winning. Now it just becomes a costly slaughter, costly for you, a slughter for the Russians. You shake your head even as you send Kampfgruppe Heidekamp onto the offensive, driving through the dense masses of attacking infantry. They leave behind a path of destruction, and at one point the Russians even let their artillery attack the Kampfgruppe in the middle of their own infantry. Two Panthers and a Tiger gets immobilized, a serious loss to the severely depleted Kampfgruppe. But this marks the end of the determined attacks, as you see the opportunity for the tanks and launch all armoured forces left to you. The LAH disgourges all its T-34s and remaining Panzer IVs along with the StuGs of 255th Infantry and the surviving panzer of 3rd Panzer Corps. In total about 250 vehicles rumbles through the Russian infantry, and suddenly they are among the artillery. In their haste to attack the Russians hadn't managed to bring their AT-guns with them in any serious capacity. Your tanks ravage the Russian formations for hours and by dusk they can't find any enemy who hasn't fled.
The attack on the infantryline has been not only halted but absolutely crushed.

Meanwhile Hausser finally broke the gunline with his infantry and manage to sever both the railline (though it was already out of working order with all the wreckage blocking it) and the main road. With this final breakthrough the nothern defenders also broke to the east opening the floodgates to Model.
Around midnight two recon units of each attacking formation meet northeast of Kursk. The bag is closed. Behind them, the former gap is a landscape of destruction.

For days more Russian troops manage to infiltrate through your lines to the freedom of the east, but the panzer divisions quickly spread out and any organized escape it halted. With the back broken of the Steppe Front there is little that can support the trapped troops. Despite this several areas suffer Russian attacks in an attempt to take the attention elsewhere. Especially the Orel sector sees strong attacks from armoured components and for a while it seems that they might in fact break through, but just then the leading elements stumble into the Ferdinands of 9th Army on a vast open plain and the attack is brought to an instant halt, and eventually also cut off as Model rushes reserves to close the breach.
Meanwhile you spread out Army Detachment Kempf's remaining corps' to cover the outer wall of the front as you launch the full attack on the trapped troops.

Unlike previous encircled troops these troops fight with vigour for an entire week. But the result is never in doubt and in the end, on the date of 16th of May the last organized forces surrender inside Kursk. It is a staggering victory, the largest of any army to date.
Inside the pocket a total of 811.000 Soviet soldiers are taken prisoner, of these some 40.000 are Guards, outside the pocket in the Orel sector another 31.000 prisoners were taken and finally in total you captured 92.000 prisoners during your advance and the local encirclements, of these 22.000 were Guards. A grand total of 944.000 prisoners. These are at once tranferred to Speer and his efforts to increase the industrial output, as had been the plan all along.
Besides the amazing number of prisoners, you capture 450 tanks (more than 300 of which are T-34s) inside the pocket and another 240 outside, 5000 heavy guns and hundreds of planes, left behind with no fuel. And another prize is Konstantin Rokosovsky himself, apparently sent inside the pocket to break it out, and possibly to punish him for his failure to halt your advance.

Your own troops suffered heavily too, a grand total of more than 70.000 casualties among yours and Model's forces. Both forces were exhausted in the end.

Expended, the Soviet forces are still and unable to do much. In an effort to close the huge gap behind Kursk other sectors are stripped of troops. And for the entirety of the summer German forces along the eastern front make limited gains and take various important local positions. The most important of these is the shore of Lake Ladoga, linking up with the Finnish forces. Leningrad is thus totally encircled with no more supplies coming in. But besides this nothing else happens of importance as several of your strognest units are pulled back to rest and rearm for thei deployment to Italy and Sicily. Hitler, the fool, had allowed the Afrikakorps to get captured in Tunisia.

During autumn Leningrad finally falls after extreme starvation had set in, depleting the garrison. An attack to open a route to the city had failed in August, and only resulted in the German forces increasing the gap betwen the city and the Soviet lines.

The industrial output soars under the command of Speer, and with the success of the Panther at Kursk it is made the principal tank. For months production is low as factories change to produce the tank, but then in late autumn rates skyrocket. Meanwhile the Russian labour made available increases the German manpowerpool with 500.000 at once.

In Sicily the Allied landings suffer setbacks and heavy losses, but eventually after three months of heavy fighting capture the island. The landings in Italy itself bog down each time, but the Germans fall back on their Gustav line where no attacks can make an impression on them. The Allies tries to outflank the line with a landing near Anzio, but the strong German reserves first contain it, then drive it back into the sea. Capturing 40.000 Allied troops.

In the east the war takes a sudden change as seemingly the Soviet hirachy is in turmoil. After the failed offensive to relieve Leningrad, demanded by Stalin, and the city's fall, which got blamed onto General Frolov who was subsequently executed, Konev and Zhukov saw the dark clouds gather and set their differences aside and marched on Moscow with light forces. Stalin had after Kursk become highly volatile and quite unreliable, finally this was too much for the army. The two marshalls' huge popularity with the military gave them a strong backing in the army. Most of the party top was captured, but Stalin and Molotov escaped, and a limited civil war broke out.
Most of the Russian army stayed put at the front while the two factions fought with a few divisions each. But without a highcommand structure they were not able to mount any attacks on the Germans, but they could defend, and the Germans were willing to let the Russians sit there.

The war turned to the west...

~:cheers: :jumping: :cheerleader: :dancing: :2thumbsup: :thumbsup:

We made it. Can't believe it!

Well, Kraxis, this is really your masterpiece! :bow: Congratulation!!

And thank you!

VICTORY! Now for some much needed R&R for the God of War. Wasn't he near having a stroke earlier? Civil war in Russia, limited Allied progress in Italy. Wonder what is up in France, and why are the Germans not taking advantage of the strife in Russia? Seems like it would be harder to mount a coordinated defense.

Great work Kraxis. Brilliant Writting. Thanks for taking the time write this. Again, brilliant.

Well, it looks like that's the end. The result is certainly far better for the Germans than I would have expected. The victory is complete and decisive, despite heavy losses. Russia is effectively knocked out of the war, and it's left to the Western allies to finish off the Germans alone.

I admit that I did not expect the German infantry in the southern line to hold out as well as they did. Apparently they did have a few tanks left with them, which I didn't realize. I also didn't think that the 800,000 Russians surrounded in the bulge would succumb so easily; I expected a bit more from an organized breakout.

One wonders how this might've changed history, of course. I would guess that the Western allies would still have won in the end, albeit after a longer period of time and significantly higher losses. Less influence from the Soviet Union on Eastern Europe after the war, perhaps - no Eastern bloc, no Iron Curtain? But, of course, the dreadful holocaust would have been dragged out as well, causing far more deaths. The outcome would've been horrible no matter what.

Kraxis, you've done an excellent job, and I thank you for much thought-provoking entertainment. Because of you I now know much more than I ever did about the battle of Kursk. :bow:

Finally, I have a question: does anyone have links to the earlier Interactive History threads? I have the one about Antiochus, but I wouldn't mind seeing how the others turned out.