Here we go again. Islamofacism once again. Screw these fanatics. I'll do what I want.
/edit: image removed.
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Here we go again. Islamofacism once again. Screw these fanatics. I'll do what I want.
/edit: image removed.
Hey, we earned it. I can't think of any products named American ____ like French Fries that I could have fun with, but sadly, we deserve it all. Pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Limits to free speech: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4680040.stm
thousands of people lined up for tickets, somebody yells: "Bomb!", 66 dead in the crush. No bomb.
haha..
Yes, that is a bit amusing...
Shame on whom? All that happened is that some of you are made to swallow your own Freedom Fries and your Axis of Weasels. That is what happens if you believe that certain nations, territories or languages embody principles and others do not. But we are not going to call a Rabbit a weasel just because he lives in the Yellow States of America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Some French members might want to siggy this though:
"Anti-Muslim images are as unacceptable as anti-Semitic images, as anti-Christian images or any other religious belief," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters. The United States, which before the September 11 attacks was criticized for insensitivity to the Islamic culture, has become more attuned to Muslim sensibilities.
What is the purpose of this comparison, Kukrikhan? Are you comparing the Danish cartoons to shouting 'bomb' during a tacky, famously chaotic game show in the Philippines? BTW what if there had been a bomb? Does free speech come with a disclaimer that says 'Do not use in an emergency'?Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Religion is religion. If a Muslim cartoon depicted Jesus screwing a donkey - would christians be upset?
It is a game ... and it is being played by the powerful against those that actually believe in a God (regardless of name). It is the old: play the good against the good and they may not understand the evil spreading it.
Truth is, the teachings of Mohamad areas worthy as those of Jesus - both were supressive of women - but, said honor them (because we alls gots mothers).
To villafial (sp) one persons aspect of a "political cartoon" (while those employing it knowingly realise they are violating a religious precept) is in itself "bullshit".
To create a premise that we must all be equal in religion is of course the hope of Christians - especially since 60-70% is Moslim. Still, hope spring eternal and the big lie always wins (or so some Christians hope, rather than face the reality that ... GOD is God, regardless of what one wants to call him.
Someone once said the best way to divert the attention of "the people" from the realities of the "STATE" was to use religion. Religion can always be a proving factor for the state .... if 20% believe it.
Personally? I find it offensive that anyone would degrade religion. Or, justify the actions against one.
Call me open minded >>>> or liberal ..... or open toother perceptions of GOD (call the prick Zeus, but acknowledge we created him). Period. But, take in mind the offensive nature of the toons depicting Mohamad and those printing them (knowing they would offend half the world) and then one can see the truth of the offense. That it was initiated by the Dutch (whom, I always felt a bit a kin because of their liberalism - they have legalized prostitutions, got to love that?) is almost offensive, Especially since their own "terrorist ATTACKS". It almost seems that it is OK for a nations press to close its' mind to reality - if its government has.
Doesn't it?
Proves a point though. That in the supposed democratic societies - the truely wealthy hold the balance of what democracy is. They define it. They have learned to live with it and now control; it.
Guy yells "BOMB!" falsely in a place used to bombings. People die. Bad thing, yes?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Paper prints cartoon saying "Mohammed is a bomber!" (is that not the message of the image?). Flags burn. Fish is not bought. Worldwide media climbs on-board re-distributing the image, furthering the stampede. Bad thing?
Who's at fault? The 'free' speaker, or the stampeders? Or someone else?
You act as though that's a bad thing. ~DQuote:
All that happened is that some of you are made to swallow your own Freedom Fries
Us. I hold no illusions about the practical nature of principles, but I thought - not illogically, considering prior actions of the US and 'Old Europe' towards certain threats - that the US would have been able to stand level with Europeans to support the fundamental principle of free speech. Alas, I am dissappointed.Quote:
Shame on whom?
Crazed Rabbit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
I was about to do this. But for the record, I don't get it. People put all kinds of insulting jokes on this forum about one anothers politics and religions.
This seems like bowing to fanaticism to me. Everyday, someone hear comments on "the religion of peace", or the crusading christians, etc. How is a personal perspective communicated through an image any different from the speech itself?
But this is just a game site, not a hardcore politics site. If I want the good stuff, I should expect to go elsewhere. Knowing the tender and gentle nature of the Org, I can't complain too much.
Who says a guy yelled 'bomb'? And who says he did it intentionally to cause a panic? All freedom comes with responsibility. And by the way:Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Sounds to me like the organisation blames the incident on 'bomb rumours' instead of their own incompetence. Now that is an abuse of free speech. :beatnik:Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
The message seems to be that Mohammed is a bomber in the eyes of some of his followers. And he is. Just this week the killer of Van Gogh had his day in court, and all he did was talk about rivers of blood and beheadings and revenge in the name of the Prophet. The guy is a perfect caricature himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kukrikhan
The stampeders are idiots who can not even burn the right flags. In other posts I wrote that it is remarkable how the Arab elites started this row, not the Arab 'street' as they call it. If people don't learn to read and write and think for themselves, they will be manipulated by clerics and political leaders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kukrikhan
Oh please what a ludicrous statement. Would they threaten to kill people over it? Remeber the picture of the Virgin Mary covered in cow dung or the upside down crucifix in a jar of urine that was displyed as art in museums around this country? Were christains upset? You bet they were. Did it come any where near the reaction the Muslims are having. Heck South Park even has Jesus as a character in the show many times and Moses has appeared as well.Quote:
Religion is religion. If a Muslim cartoon depicted Jesus screwing a donkey - would christians be upset?
Let's leave aside the question of whether Christians are oppressive of women, you will not find any examples of Jesus's teaching that are oppressive of women. If you read the gospels, you will, in fact, find the reverse. Probably the same is true of Mohamad.Quote:
Truth is, the teachings of Mohamad areas worthy as those of Jesus - both were supressive of women - but, said honor them (because we alls gots mothers).
Where Christians do oppress women, it is because the subvert rather than follow Christ's teaching.
Note: we have a merged topic, so posts may seem out of sequence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Heh. Looks like a Redleg refutation. (No offense to you or Redleg).
To be honest, I heard the initial report on BBC-World radio, where the breathless Manila station chief said: "Someone yelled 'BOMB!', and people rushed away!...". I went to BBC.co.uk and checked: sure enough, a headline. Re-checking just now, I see the byline with the reporter's name, has been dropped, and many details have been added, including an upped death-count. So, I'll put my assertion of someone yelling down to reliance on preliminary on-the-scene, non-pastuerized, non-gate-closing-details reports.
So, back 4 hours ago, I thought: "This will put a different spin on the cartoon wars thread." And I posted.
I don't dispute that we've seen silly people acting..well, silly.
My question is: Is the alarmism by both the European press and Muslim elite warranted? Calculated? Racist? Harmless? Necessary?
Is someone, or several someones gonna die over this? Is it worth it?
WITH PERMISSION OF KUKRIKHAN:
For those of you who have not seen the image that is causing all this fuss, here it is:
***WARNING: If you are Muslim, you may violate your religious requirements by viewing this image.*****
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
You sure thats not Bin Laden? :laugh4:
Yup I remember that. When stuff like that happens my church gets together, break out the weapons cache we have stored under the First Baptist Church and go on a grand killing spree, burning cars, rioting, and all sorts of fun "outrage" activities. Then to top it off, we capture a few artists and have a good old fashion head chopping party while screaming, "Praise Jesus!!!" over and over again drowning out the last girgling noises of our infidel victim as they choke on their own blood until that last little bit of spinal columb snapes under the sharp blade of the righteous. Oh wait, that didn't happen.:wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by KafirChobee
And do you think the UN is more or less likely to illegalize the criticism of Islam after this incident?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
It should be clear that no one was scared to speak out on this issue.
I can't think of anything that Westerners would find as offensive as printed pictures of mohammed. We're desensitized to a lot. Maybe showing gay porn during the superbowl? That would offend a lot of people, and how is that not free speech?
Yeah well, drunkks don't care. f@@@ reeessssssiollikdion.
More likely too. Muslims will point to it as evidence of the 'need' for such a restriction on free speech, and the UN, eager to appease, will try to oblige.Quote:
And do you think the UN is more or less likely to illegalize the criticism of Islam after this incident?
The editor of the French paper that printed these was fired, and employees at the Danish paper had, I believe, a bomb threat called in. I think that there are some who have held back because of the nature of the Muslim reaction. The protesters are certainly trying to intimidate people.Quote:
It should be clear that no one was scared to speak out on this issue.
That's obscenity, not free speech. It serves no purpose save to display a disgusting spectacle. These cartoons are critiquing a religion, actual political speech.Quote:
I can't think of anything that Westerners would find as offensive as printed pictures of mohammed. We're desensitized to a lot. Maybe showing gay porn during the superbowl? That would offend a lot of people, and how is that not free speech?
Crazed Rabbit
The artists are afraid for their lives and under police protection.Quote:
The editor of the French paper that printed these was fired, and employees at the Danish paper had, I believe, a bomb threat called in. I think that there are some who have held back because of the nature of the Muslim reaction. The protesters are certainly trying to intimidate people.
No offense taken. But I am still not sure we are on the same wavelength.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Bomb scares are mostly the result of bomb threats, particularly if such threats have come true recently as they have in the Philippines. If anyone is to blame for the deadly rush in front of that stadium, it is the bloody terrorists who caused the bomb scare in the Philippines the first place. That is what terrorism does, it is random violence intended to scare and cause chaos. That is its very nature. The same thing happened in Iraq not too long ago: a deadly stampede caused by a bomb scare caused by concrete threats against pilgrims. That is not a consequence of free speech, not even of its abuse. It is the very opposite of free speech.
And about the cartoon: if someone claims that Mohammed wants him to blow things up, someone else has every right to produce a cartoon of said Mohammed with a bomb in his turban. The demonstrators should be protesting against their terrorist brethren, not against the very apt and timely cartoon.
The sad thing is they are put up to it by government agitators and clerics who stand to lose everything if their population would ever exercise their right to free speech, a free flow of information, legal and political equality, etcetera. That is the issue we have to face now.
I am rather happy with the way the Danish and other European governments tackle this. We have a saying in The Neds that in delicate situations 'someone has to use their brains'. The Danes for instance are not demonstrating, shutting down embassies, calling for the beheading of such and such. Their government remains firm but moderate and open to dialogue. Like Mandelson on behalf of the EU, Rasmussen has made it clear that they will not give in on the one hand and that they will not condone the cartoons on the other hand -- which is quite right because governments are not in the business of promoting cartoons and anyone here who thinks they should needs their head examined.
If the anti-Danish boycots and agitation persist, the EU will have to reciprocate with trade sanctions where it hurts some Arab leaders and second echelon types most. Pascal Lamy, Mandelson's predecessor, has shown that the EU can be very good at this after the WTO condemned Bush punitive steal tariffs. Lamy threatened a package of 200 major and minor EU trade sanctions against the U.S. that would hurt Bush re-election most (Florida oranges, for instance) after which the steal tariffs were scuttled inside of two weeks. I have no doubt that if needed, Mandelson's staff will come up with a suitable package for Mssrs Assad or Bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud. They buy most of their luxuries such as yachts, cars, jewellery and fancy consumer electronics in Europe. No more toys for the boys would be my advice. ~:)
Hey, what can I say? I expected less from the European politicians, considering their reputation for "cowardice." And they surprised me with a firm position. Hopefully this will last.
The population of Europe is, gladly, defiant to this threat to freedom of speech. Kudos to them and buy Danish cookies. I myself love Danish cookies long before they start printing Muhammed-ridiculing cartoons.
What surprises me greatly, though, is the American reaction. Wimps? WTF!!! :skull:
By the gods, it had not been a week since the State of the Union and our beloved Presiden...cy (since I'm not sure if the President does actually have a hand in formulating the policy of siding with the oversensitive party) has already betrayed his/its principles.
And I thought I should expect this kind of comforming behavior from the Dems, according to the usual Republican boasts!
I'm sorry, but you could say very bad things about my mother and I still won't have a right to start injuring you and kidnapping your family. What I can do is sue and burn a flag or two. I cannot infringe upon your liberty. Therefore, while it is easy to see the tasteless cartoons angering Muslims, the reactions of some--I dearly hope not most--of their community brought forth my utmost contempt and frustration.
The day they start banning anti-religious freedom of expression in this country, that's the day I'll start writing Rushdie's sequels.
pressing buttons have never been this easier. Kinda like tickle me elmo saying "ha ha ha ha ha apologise now!"
I'm usually very quick to say that Islam is a good religion and that it's simply the acts of a few that are spoiling it for the rest. However, this one has really started to get to me. I have no problems with them being pissed and rioting over the cartoon. It's their right if they are offended and I can't criticize them for that. What this has had me asking though is, why aren't they this upset about the killings of innocents in the Mideast? Where are the riots for the beheadings? Where are the images of bin Laden being burned for his distortion of Islam? They seem to be picking their outrages in a rather questionable manner.
Looks like the French Muslims kept a pragmatic point of view on the issue. Many people condamned the pics as being unrespectful, but no manifestations with slogans such as 'France is the cancer and Islam the answer', no people crying and asking for the heads of the people who drawn the pics.
They'll apparently sue France Soir (the newspaper that released the pics) for provocation. While I hope they'll lose the trial, I think they kinda shown they aren't the brainwashed morons we can see everyday on TV, and earned my respect, for what it's worth.
Any support for that claim, or is it some random thoughts from someone who hates the UN ?Quote:
More likely too. Muslims will point to it as evidence of the 'need' for such a restriction on free speech, and the UN, eager to appease, will try to oblige.
Danish embassy torched in Syria
This is getting more and more out of hands... :no:
~:eek:
This is utterly insane!
This is how WW3 is going to start.:skull:
If the Syrians kill some of the Danish people in the embassy, the Danish government will have to respond. But how will they respond?
Europe should stand its ground... Be defiant and such... Demand the arrest of the fire-raisers. If Syria fail to comply, press them further. If the refuse outright, well...
Erm, the Danish Armed forces aren't going to shatter the world as we know it...
Getting the Eu to do more than a harsh letter would be tough
NATO are supposed to be a defensive European force
The UN likes to debate things for many years, preferably until the chrisis has passed. :juggle2:
~:smoking:
I wonder if this mob is aware of how much disrespect they are showing to Mohammed by their actions and by showing how close to the truth the original cartoons apparently are...
true.
does anyone in the country have an unaltered Quran? i just want to know if any of these people have ever read the words of muhamed along the lines of how you should not kill, respect your brothers, suicide is bad, women are your equals and should be respected, and jihad does not encompass the blowing up of oneself. or mabey they only know the Quran that has been warped by the extremests. i'm not supporting the person who wrote the cartoon, he was just a shallow idiot who crossed the line.
Nice going you idiot mob! They torched the Danish embassy... but the thing is that the Swedish one is the same building. Morons.
This is just going to get worse I think, the right-wing nutcases all over scandinavia is protesting and getting arrested. *Mega Yawn* As I said before, humans are pathetic.
UN talk till the cows die before they come home. The UN are toothless. Idealism is nice but not practical without some enforcement. Law and order comes from the ability to enforce..well LAW and ORDER.Quote:
The UN likes to debate things for many years, preferably until the chrisis has passed.
Someone raised an interesting point at another website.
\WHy aren't Muslims coming out and protesting against Islam percieved as "extremist". I'm not going to say that moderate Islam is the true Islam or that extremism is true Islam, for all I know it could be either. But moderate Muslims are so quiet, so silent on this matter.
It troubles me that they don't speak out on behalf of persecuted minorities in their homelands. Anyone care about the Assyrian Holocaust in Iraq? Its not a matter of religion, the Assyrian are an ethnic group as well as a religious group. Or how about the Copts? WHo speaks on their behalf? The last time they dared to protest on a large scale was in the 9th century when the Abbasids crushed a Coptic rebellion after igniting it with discriminatory high taxes and attempted Arabisation. What about the Bahais? The only safe place for them is...ISRAEL - the most hated nation on Earth after the US where they have a magnificent edifice there. If it was in Iran, Syria or Egypt, watch that prominent building burn to the ground. What about the Parsees (Zoroastarians) who worship underground in fear? What about the Mandeans, the Sabeans, the Yazidis, the Chaldean Nestorians (who are the last few speakers of Aramaic, the language of the Arameans, Babylonians, etc, etc). WHo speaks out for those Muslims who choose to embrace another religion like Hinduism or Buddhism, how is it that moderate Muslims don't defend these "apostates" on the principle of free-will.
Do I sound peeved, I sure do.
I have Muslims who tell me Islam is a religion of peace. Then why don't they speak for those who can't defend themselves? Or does it only apply to Muslims who can't defend themselves?
However, I am sure that Muslims on the .org are disgusted by treatment of minority groups by "so-called" Muslims. And I am sure they not fanatically inclined but desire a peaceful co-existence. If they had the chance and power, they too would protest against the apathy of silence in which extremist Islam has more attention than the moderate Islam.
I love Europeans, they are so...peace loving :laugh4: :laugh4:
Dont say we didnt warn ya. At least they cant blame this one on the US. Nice to see then coming to their senses. Tolerance is one thing but this is insane.Quote:
I love Europeans, they are so...peace loving
No, this is just the Syrian government's bid to claim leadership of the movement and gain some prestige among Muslims after the late Lebanese debacle. In Syria nothing happens without overt or silent approval of the regime, and since this regime is not averse to killing the occasional neighbouring prime minister it can certainly be credited with organising what happened today. Observe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazul
Symbolic police protection at a time of heightened tension and increased threats...Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
I'm going to break my self-applied abstinence and bust out a special condom to enter the backroom once more so I can give my opinion which differs from the usual "OMG Th3y R 5uCh cR42y & Vi0L3nT" I'm seeing here...
I think most people here are thinking the situation is too bad. I guess I can blame the media for constantly showing the same damn images of the Gaza riots, while ignoring the largely peaceful (though massive and outraged) elsewhere and everywhere throughout the Islamic world.
Now, we all know that there have been many more incidents of very insulting things against the Quran and Mohammed, but since this one has received a helluva coverage, of course the fires are being spread.
I have heard of no killings due to this...others apparently have, or like in the "Hamas" thread, some are just hoping to inflame the situation...:inquisitive:
The things said about the cars turned over and burned...wasn't that a non-religious but rather racially motivated incident in France last year...? :inquisitive:
What outdoes the rather disproportionatly inflated scenes of flag burnin', hate sign totin', gun shootin', (and BTW, don't you tell me you haven't heard of the "Allah must die" or "kill them all, let God sort them out" or "keep flushing the Quran" signs) is the massive peaceful boycotts against an action which is considered worse then death for most muslims and a "declaration of war" against the religion of Islam (as many see it). Those boycotts are damned effective, and it is the best way to protest an action, and they have been almost 100% successful... Good for them, I'll passively join in since my sister must be offended by this (I never buy Euro products anyway...I buy Canadian and Japanese).
Here's some more on the protests, I took the liberty of NOT choosing Al-Jazeera as some may not hold it as "fair and balanced" according to their FOX standards:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060203...f_060203182048
Here's another one from a senior Kuwaiti iman:Quote:
Originally Posted by according to Yahoo news, this is a "bearded cleric" (such great journalism)
Here's a guy who was more sad than mad:Quote:
"It is a (religious) duty for every Muslim to boycott countries that defame the Prophet, without waiting for a decision from the rulers," said one of Kuwait's imams, or prayer leaders.
I hope these boycotts continue, and I hope they set a precedent for the Arab world, that there are better ways to unite and speak out than letting a small group of wannabe mujahadeen run around yapping. None of these clerics said anything along the lines of violence, which some would be led to believe, and I know that Qaradawi is a bigshot when it comes to Islamic clerics. And on the Shite side:Quote:
A senior Saudi cleric delivering a sermon at the Grand Mosque in Mecca, home of the holiest sites in Islam, broke down in tears for nearly five minutes while condemning the cartoons.
This entire situation reminds of of the race riots here in the 60's. A few people decided to cause mayhem and the media tied them in with the largely peaceful boycotts of the movement...Quote:
Iraq's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, condemned the cartoon depictions in a posting on his website Jan. 31.
"We strongly denounce and condemn this horrific action," al-Sistani said.
However, the cleric did not encourage any protests and he even placed some responsibility on militant Muslims for the negative way that Islam is depicted, AP reported.
He said some segments of the Muslim community were "misguided and oppressive" and that their actions "projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love and brotherhood."
Oh and about the UN thing: I'm quite sure anti Jewish statements are protected and they should be, as much of this recent Islamaphobia, reminisces of early 20th century anti-Semitism.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll be flamed by some here...but I probably won't read those utterly worthless remarks cause I'm off to the Frontroom :flybye:.
EDIT: Oh and one last thing that I forgot to address...there have been many condemnations against beheadings/kidnappings that go on in Iraq. Just google it and see how many Muslim groups have called for Jill Carol's release...
Im sorry but making a rule that no one can make an image of the prophet and expecting everyone in the rest of the world to abide by it is ridiclous. Doing violence over it is insane. There is no excuse. Talk about pushing your morals on others.
A good article from Matthew Paris in the Times today.
Here
Quote:
The approach is tempting. It avoids hurt. But it overlooks, in the evolution of belief, the key role played by mockery. Many faiths and ideologies achieve and maintain their predominance partly through fear. They, of course, would call it “respect”. But whatever you call it, it intimidates. The reverence, the awe — even the dread — that their gods, their KGB or their priesthoods demand and inspire among the laity are vital to the authority they wield.
The man has hit the nail on the head.Quote:
But let us not duck what that “I do not believe” really means. It means I do not believe that there is one God, Allah, or that Muhammad is His Prophet. It means I do not believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, or that no man cometh to the Father except by Him. I do not believe that the Jews are God’s Chosen People, or subject to any duties different from the rest of us. It means I do not believe any living creature will be reincarnated in another life.
Well, boycotting countries because they respect free speech is certainly an improvement over bombing or beheading their citizens. In a linear sense, I guess exchanging the dumbest idea for the second-dumbest qualifies as progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
:laugh4:
I'm with Gwain. Peaceful protests IMO are going to far. We are not far from a time when countries declared that people should be killed for what they wrote.
Won't read the replies??? Oh, OK. Again doesn't really add weight to what you write does it: a quick post followed by a holier-than-thou attitude dare anyone disagree with the itinerant prophet who has "graced" us :dizzy2:
I hate to bring it to your attention but the Western World has not been shook to its knees by the protests, passive or otherwise. If you'd further passively protest by not bothering to write it'd be even better...~:argue:
The oh so hated Europe has even managed to add a paragraph wishing the Middle East be made a nuclear weapon free zone - which is viewed by many as a slap against Israel.
~:smoking:
Your free speech, their blasphemy...they are perfectly justified, if an employee at a store or restaurant said something rude to me in even the slightest way, I wouldn't go back because I "respect their right to free speech".
AND
Yep, I guess we'll leave the bombing of citizens to the allied coalition in Iraq...
AND
11000 people losing jobs seems like a big hit...
And please, don't criticize my attitude, it's just matching everyone elses on this forum...besides, I don't mind disagreeing, I mind personal flaming which I have recieved when dealing with such a topic in the past...and I clearly stated that...
Well, the (Muslim) Iraqis had bean doing it for a couple of decades, we thought we'd help... Oh and didn't Iran and Iraq loose a few as well in that war that lasted about a decade? I know it was our fault for not stopping them (when we'd have again become accused of unfairly getting involved in other's affairs)...
Muslims killing muslims? Must be me, as after all deaths throughout the Islamic world are directly or indirectly due to Europe / USA :rtwno:
~:smoking:
No they are not. They are not justified in foisting their mind-set and belief on the World. They are the ones who are wrong. Wrong in thought. Wrong in deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
Yep, but all that is history, or would you like me to bring up Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Besides, I've already stated that it's the Arabs own fault in the Hamas thread and that muslims do kill other muslims in Iraq, go look it up...but that masks the non-muslims killing muslims right?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Gah, stop spreading freedom and free speech...:rolleyes2:Quote:
No they are not. They are not justified in foisting their mind-set and belief on the World. They are the ones who are wrong. Wrong in thought. Wrong in deed.
[QUOTE=Reenk Roink]Your free speech, their blasphemy...they are perfectly justified[QUOTE]
You notice wehn Jesus was defiled in the Jerry Springer Opera, Christians managed to keep themselves to a little protest across the road denouncing blasphemy. The protest in London demanded the deaths of the Danish and Europeans. The latter is in breach of laws against Incitement to Racial Hatred; why the constabulary failed to arrest the bearers of the placards I do not know...
You're going to stop? Well done.Quote:
Yep, I guess we'll leave the bombing of citizens to the allied coalition in Iraq...
I doubt it'll get that far.Quote:
11000 people losing jobs seems like a big hit...
Excellent, thank you for the link. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
Actually I agree with Reenk Roink uo to a certain point. I have no problem at all with peaceful protests against newspapers that print these cartoons.
That would be exercising the right of free speech in the same way as the newspapers did with the cartoons.
By boycotting Danish products in general people are already going a step too far IMO, as this would mean punishing people who had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons - this would mean using the same broad brush as people who consider all muslims as potential terrorists.
The use of violence is not excusable at all.
And in Iraq there are no Mulsim bombers killing muslims? All allied troops get killed? And you may view it as splitting hairs but in the areas the British control people are more scared of militant muslims than the British troops - UK soldiers don't blow people up for having the wrong beliefs.
There are several current examples of Muslims killing muslims - and doing it far more often than the occupation forces are. Every bomb that goes off killing men who only wanted to help their country mature is set by a muslim. Generally there are no troops in the area.
It doesn't mask anything - the point is which you seem to gloss over when you choose is that muslims are killing the vast majority - and if the troops hadn't gone in by the numbers od dead that have been found, the death rates would be worse. Iraq should have been liberated in 1991 - but at least it has been.
When Muslims can be relied on to govern a country then they can be left alone to do so. There are few examples that I can see where that has so far occurred.
~:smoking:
You are, as ever, welcome Adrian. We shall tempt you back to the path of enlightenment yet, away from the darkside of social democracy. :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Right-wing social democracy, if you please -- you know, the kind that gets things done in this old world. We are not merely enlightened, my friend, we are the light and we are extremely powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
*throws chicken bones in the air*
Look at the muslims in Denmark, aside from one bomb threat what happened? Yet there have been calls to expel them from the country...Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm
What? :confused:Quote:
You're going to stop? Well done.
Ok, we'll have to wait.Quote:
I doubt it'll get that far.
Read: "Yep, but all that is history, or would you like me to bring up Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Besides, I've already stated that it's the Arabs own fault in the Hamas thread and that muslims do kill other muslims in Iraq, go look it up...but that masks the non-muslims killing muslims right?"Quote:
And in Iraq there are no Mulsim bombers killing muslims? All allied troops get killed? And you may view it as splitting hairs but in the areas the British control people are more scared of militant muslims than the British troops - UK soldiers don't blow people up for having the wrong beliefs.
There are several current examples of Muslims killing muslims - and doing it far more often than the occupation forces are. Every bomb that goes off killing men who only wanted to help their country mature is set by a muslim. Generally there are no troops in the area.
It doesn't mask anything - the point is which you seem to gloss over when you choose is that muslims are killing the vast majority - and if the troops hadn't gone in by the numbers od dead that have been found, the death rates would be worse. Iraq should have been liberated in 1991 - but at least it has been.
When Muslims can be relied on to govern a country then they can be left alone to do so. There are few examples that I can see where that has so far occurred.
I doubt that those suicide bombings killed more than the carpet bombs though...
Muslims who were not involved in terrorist acts all over the world apologized...they said it was against Islam. No government has given a good apology to the muslims yet. Free Speech can be abused, so can the Golden Rule, so can Religion, apologies should follow...Quote:
Actually I agree with Reenk Roink uo to a certain point. I have no problem at all with peaceful protests against newspapers that print these cartoons.
That would be exercising the right of free speech in the same way as the newspapers did with the cartoons.
By boycotting Danish products in general people are already going a step too far IMO, as this would mean punishing people who had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons - this would mean using the same broad brush as people who consider all muslims as potential terrorists.
The use of violence is not excusable at all.
You said that all the muslims were perfectly justified in what they were doing (if this isn't what you meant and I merely misconstrued the phrase, ignore it). A light bit of protesting is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
You said that you'll leave the bombing of innocent civilians in Iraq to the Allied Co-alition, implying muslims will stop bombing innocent civilians in Iraq.Quote:
What? :confused:
Perhaps Muslims should, instead of reacting so much, root out from amongst their number those who have allowed Islam to be viewed in such a light.Quote:
Muslims who were not involved in terrorist acts all over the world apologized...they said it was against Islam. No government has given a good apology to the muslims yet. Free Speech can be abused, so can the Golden Rule, so can Religion, apologies should follow...
I hope none does. You have to make a stand against this kind of hysteria, can't allow decency, tolerance and understanding to rot your backbone away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
And you, my friend, should realise you are on the side of potentates who couldn't care less who gets bombed by whom as long as they can cling to power. My favourite Middle East blog made the point rather eloquently:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Or Does It Explode?
Just because we did it before doesn't make it right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
Totally agree here. They had every right to be offended and upset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Boycotts are arguably misguided- but, I say it's still their right to do so.Quote:
By boycotting Danish products in general people are already going a step too far IMO, as this would mean punishing people who had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons - this would mean using the same broad brush as people who consider all muslims as potential terrorists.
Again I agree.Quote:
The use of violence is not excusable at all.
Also, expecting the Danish government to apologize for something that a privately owned newspaper does is totally absurd. I have no doubt that the drawings were extremely offensive to many muslims. I also felt that when other papers reprinted to cartoons for little more reason than just to prove they could, they were being needlessly antagonistic. However, when people go around kidnapping people and burning down embassies because someone offended them, they quickly start to lose any sympathies I had for their position.
Are the photos we're seeing in the press indicative of the protests as a whole or just the hysterical parts that the media has latched upon?
Are European newspapers responsible for stoking this controversy by responding to Muslim anger by reprinting the cartoons?
I don't know enough about the relationship between Europeans as a whole and the Muslim world to reach any conclusions, but my initial reaction is that this is largely a bunch of religious people overreacting and trying to silence their critics.
Burnt Danish and Norwegian embassies, stormed embassy in Indonesia, pissed muslims everywhere, including in Euorpean countries; boycott actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by solypsist
No. Denmark is still the most hated.Quote:
Are European newspapers responsible for stoking this controversy by responding to Muslim anger by reprinting the cartoons?
This is intolerable, the EU should impose sanctions on these countries immediately, and an end to aid to the Palestines until they see reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Chris
This whole thing is getting out of control.
And the Iran situation is going to make it worse.
Got that right. remains to be seen what wll happen over Iran though, probably just some token sanctions and thats it.Quote:
This whole thing is getting out of control.
And the Iran situation is going to make it worse.
I fear that is not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Emperor
How many things are trivialized in the name of faith?
Well a similar, tough relative minor, event took place here a while ago. The artist León Ferrari, portrayed the image of Jesus in various ways, one of them particualary offende the archbishop who immediatly fired up the hearts of the Christian mass. The mob reached the museum and basically blocked it. At one point they even entered and started destroying many art pieces inside. The result of all this: the government banned this artwork. Yes intolerance won, and I presume this will not be different. LINK to the history (in spanish).
In a society the people tend to forget faster about their responsabilities towards their fellow man and to respect their wishes and their opinions, than they forget their own conformity and the equivocal superiority of their own believes. In the name of that a simple act of expression generates havoc. It's incredible.
I'm of the opinion that this people can be as offended as they want to (many people are offended for many things, it doesn't matter how ridicolous or menial it seems) but taking this step is totally outrageous. It shouldn't, under any ocassion be banned or forbidden or restricted in anyway, the government or the private entity shouldn't apolagize, but reafirm their actitudes, and anyone who continues with this meaningless rebellion should be dealed accordingly.
I'll not give more turns, I'll try to be direct. Blame faith for this. This people (and I'm talking about religious people, truly faithful people) have the image of their idols in an altar, above all that's true, real and pure, as the human life, the freedom and why not social estability. When everybody start to respect the man, more than they respect their personal feelings or their idols or ideals, then we can talk about citizenship.
I think the best point is that here in Europe people can have either point of view. They can agree or they can protest. As long as all are peaceful that is fine.
If I were to go to any of these Islamic countries and state a point of view I'd probably be lynched - and would the government give an apology? :laugh4:
The Bible also has strong things to say about Idolatry. Doesn't mean that many christians use them, and as far as I am aware in the 21st Century none get destroyed for being displayed.
Religion should be a force of good. If it clearly fails to be so, it needs to be fundamentally altered.
Oh, and I agree that any country that decided to disrespect a european national flag should have all aid immedaitely cut off, and preferably all loans called in to boot.
I view the burning of my national flag with the same passion and utter loathing of the perpotrators as muslims appear to view those cartoons. I'd not advocate casting the first stone, but I don't see why we need to wait for the second before showing exactly what privations can be inflicted when the EU flexes its monetry muscles. :furious3:
~:smoking:
This has gotten terribly ironic. "How dare you accuse us of only being able to solve problems through violence. We'll show them by burning their embassies and threatening their lives....":help:
We should just remove all dealings with them and start selling some better airplanes to Israel.
Did you notice that the Vatican agreed with the Mullahs? Freedom of speech is a danger to all Religions.
That is the problem when people thing they got the TRUTH. YOU are not allowed to think differently (from Torquemada to Osama Bin Laden).
But, what is worried mw is the mass protest. Moderate Muslims tried for years to convince the world that the Islamic fascist are not the representative of the real Islam, and guess what happened; Crowds all around the world demonstrated against a picture.:embarassed:
If we have to respect all faith and beliefs, to respect all superstitions, we won’t be able to live because most of them are in contradiction. Monotheism against polytheism, UFO, Paganism, atheism, spirits and shamanism, all are beliefs or convictions. If I say I am Atheist, I offend all the rest, but I say I am Pagan, I offend the others.:sweatdrop:
Heh. I am experiencing something of a meltdown myself. I have followed this row for three days and I find it increasingly difficult to even take the issue serious anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
Here we have a circle of countries with mostly semi-literate inhabitants ruled by psychopaths and tyrants, and they decide to boycott (and burn the flags, and threaten the citizens of) a free, democratic country over a few cartoons.
Hello!
Economic inequality; war in Iraq; Isabelle Adjani's breasts -- those are real issues. Some Muslims are starting to look like their own cartoon. Seeing how the historic Mohammed used to be ahead of his time in many ways, he must be turning in his grave like a one-man helicopter these days.Nah, they can crush any Muslim country any time they want, they don't need more planes. I was thinking: can't we somehow bottle a European sense of humour, irony and self-respect and ship it to, say, Washington? As an experiment? And if that works and they find words to defend free speech over there, maybe we can send the next one to Jordan or Egypt, and so on? Easy, easy, catchy zombie?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
“Heh. I am experiencing something of a meltdown myself.” I got the same feeling. But on another way: I am concerned (in UN meaning) how was my first reaction. More kind of let’s nuke all these people, or at least, let’s them died in their own ignorance. And THAT is the danger of extremists; they push you to be like them. I saw that in Bosnia. The ultra Nationalists got their goal. Instead to find a multi-cultural peace, we created mini-states.:help:
Now, the speech of Koffi Anan was a shame.:furious3:
When Zola published “J’accuse” in the Aurore Newspaper, he offended the French Nation of the time. He went against the French Feeling (not all, but at least a huge proportion of them), as Voltaire did for Callas.
When the French Revolution stated that all men are equal, that also offended a lot of people and Counties (all Europe, basically) where the public order was still based on St Augustan distinction and order (those who pray, those who fight and those who work).
I am not concerned about what happened in Palestine; I would agree it is more about finally something to do (even if it’s implicated to bite the hand which fed and still feed you). I am more concerned about the Muslim reaction in European Countries. Freedom of speech is one the base of democracy. That implies sometime to heard things we don’t like, which hurt feelings.
The Muslims who felt humiliated or hurt by the drawing could and should have asked, as the laws give them right, a right of answer… But, no, they went for the violence.
At what scared me is I was ready to answer by violence. For a short time, they transform me in a vindictive man.:sweatdrop:
Why these extremists wanted to destroy Islam, I have no idea. It is a fight they can’t win. I remember in France after the bombing and London, last year, when all the politics tried and succeeded to calm down the retaliation desire of the populations against innocent Muslims.
And what happened: the actual Muslim population, living in the same countries, are now calling to kill me, or at least think that I am a legitimate target.:wall:
I was wondering, if embassies in Saudi get overrun (ala Syria and Lebanon) would Britian rethink the Eurofighter sale? It's alot of money.
The Sauds wouldn't want to loose the planes either. They'd probably get the police to shoot the crowds.
Muslims more than most others seem to feel that they are deserving of a "it's our religion which supercedes all local laws and conventions" card. If you want the best in democratic free speech and where you have to get on with your neighbour even when he dares laugh at a cartoon. If you prefer the "cut hands off for placing a book on the ground" there are loads of other countries that would suit you. Please leave - in a democracy that is allowed.
~:smoking:
There is no need for a violent answer. People who burn an empty embassy in downtown Damascus or storm the Danish consulate in Djakarta bearing placards that call for murder and beheading are their own caricature, you know? If this goes on we won't need cartoons any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Well, the larger British and French Muslim organisations actually declared against all violence. And the largest British Muslim body yesterday immediately called for the arrest of the group of London Muslims who briefly demonstrated demanding another '7/7' and '9/11'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Most European Muslims have behaved normally by European standards, and as usual many didn't want to be involved in the first place since they have their own lives and other more important issues to look after. It is only the lunatic fringe that takes to the street.
As Adrian wisely said earlier, it is the unemployed, un-educated, bored lowlives that are causing most of the trouble - organized by fanatics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Peasant
Norway is taking the burnt embassy case to the UN. Let`s see how that works out..
I feel that the UN will do nothing in this case, as it has no economic or technological clout of its own other than that which it is allowed by its disparate members. The EU must take the lead if it sees itself as a credible entity, or embryonic state. In fact, this is one thing that will unite almost all Europeans and if the EU can't harness that feeling then it cannot pretend to represent the peoples of Europe, or not in its present form at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Chris
edit. this concerns all European states, even Norway which is not a member of the EU.
Yes, the lunatics who threaten are absurd, or would be if they weren't so deadly serious. But thier threats are not idle ones; just ask Theo Van Gogh.
The essential fact is that it doesn't matter how thoroughly they make caricatures of themselves if they accomplish their goal - making people afraid to criticise Islam. What does it matter how crazy or foolish they look if people are too afraid to speak about it or ridicule them? What is the difference between silence though fear and laws against criticism of Islam?
Many elites have tried to pass this off not printing the cartoons or doing anything else to anger Muslims as 'sensitivity'. But as Mark Steyn brillantly said:
Europe needs to demonstrate that they are not afraid to print, and continue printing, these cartoons or other things that question Islam. European leaders need to protect their citizens and make them safe from thuggish retaliation.Quote:
One day the British foreign secretary will wake up and discover that, in practice, there's very little difference between living under Exquisitely Refined Multicultural Sensitivity and Sharia. As a famously sensitive Dane once put it, "To be or not to be, that is the question."
Crazed Rabbit
P.S. About the 'Vatican' statement:
It was made by a Cardinal, who is a retired diplomat. He does not reflect the official position of the Vatican.
Cardinal Achille Silvestrini said:Quote:
"Freedom is a great virtue but it must be shared and it must not be unilateral. Freedom of satire that offends the feelings of others becomes an abuse, and here we are talking about nothing less than the feelings of entire peoples who have seen their supreme symbols affected."
I want to live in a multiracial but not multicultural society. There is one culture: British. It alters though the years as those that make up Britain change.
BUT we speak English here. If you don't, then why are you here? There IMO are certain things that it is up to the individual to tolerate of the state, or they can leave. Again, these tenants alter slowly over time, but I feel that we are already pandering to too large degree to accommodate those that in the main have chosen to be in this country. The ports are open - please leave to a country that better suits your own views, or stay if you truely wish to do so.
~:smoking: