Congratulations Quintius in your election as consul, I wish you the wisdom of the gods in this difficult time. I have no doubt that under you leadership Rome will defeat the vile Greeks.
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Congratulations Quintius in your election as consul, I wish you the wisdom of the gods in this difficult time. I have no doubt that under you leadership Rome will defeat the vile Greeks.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Noble Senators, Consul Quintus has now posted his mid-term report and so our interim session of the Senate is open for debate.
As you know, there is the possibility of emergency motions being tabled, but I urge you to try to resolve matters with requiring recouse to prolonged voting.
This session will remain open for the tabling of emergency motions until 6pm UK time on Sunday. If there are any motions, voting will then begin and will close on 6pm Monday.
If there are no motions, Consul Quintus may be back on the field by Sunday night and we may even begin the search for a new First Consul on Monday.
In short, gentlemen, I ask that you seek to direct the Consul via debate and consensus - motions that are not opposed may be passed without prolonged voting.
Well I would like to be the first one to congratulate Consul Quintus on his total victory over long time enemy Pyrrhus !
Well done, the people of Rome are gratefull indeed.
Further more I agree with your next course of action Consul, driving the Greeks of our land does sound like the best thing to do right now.
However I would like to debate about what to do next, you say we should head to sicily. But would it not be better to unite Italia once and for all ? Why not head north for now.
I'd also suggest building ports and the such in every coastal area, this will benefit our empire in the long run, we can merely use our central settlements - Rome and Capua - as troop building area's.
:balloon2:
[QUINTUS]: Greetings, Senator Dutch_guy - the ride from Croton was gruelling but it is good to be back in this august house.
I am grateful for your advice. Building ports is certainly important, although an expensive endeavour.
My geographers will soon post a map of our surrounds, but I believe there is now no independent territory to our north. The Gauls have been almost as busy as we, in their battles with rebels. While war with Gaul may soon come, I do not believe it is in our interests to begin it at this point while we have only one Consular and one Praetorian army.
To clarify: I do not intend to seize the whole of Sicily. The decision of whether to strike Gaul or Carthage will fall to the next First Consul and indeed to the Senate, who must authorise any declarations of war. But the Greeks have holdings in Sicily and I believe it would be unwise to let them remain bordering our lands.
Ah I should have thought before I spoke, what does a port cost now a days ?Quote:
I am grateful for your advice. Building ports is certainly important, although an expensive endeavour.
Well this indeed sounds reasonable, it does sound better to strike the Greeks on Sicily...however that debate is for another time as you said.Quote:
To clarify: I do not intend to seize the whole of Sicily. The decision of whether to strike Gaul or Carthage will fall to the next First Consul and indeed to the Senate, who must authorise any declarations of war. But the Greeks have holdings in Sicily and I believe it would be unwise to let them remain bordering our lands.
:balloon2:
I would like to congratulate Tiberius Coruncanius on his military successes and I have of course congratulated our consul Quintus personally on his mastery of strategy and tactics and his succes in carrying out the will of the Senate.
It is good to hear that senator Antio Sextius has concluded such succesfull diplomatic negotiations, as this war is putting a heavy burden on our economy.
I would also like to congratulate Marcella on her marriage with senator Titus Vatenius and I hope her health and wits improve quickly.
Likewise, my congratulations to senator Publius Laevinus, I hope his marriage will be a fruitfull one.
Senator DDW. You are mistaken. I was not amrried nor were any of my children.
My congratulations to Quintus on a successful victory over Pyrrhus and i hope the remainder of his campaign goes equally as well.
I must ask the senator a very important question however. Have you begun the process of assimilating our new territories as auxiliary settlements yet (with the ultimate goal of complete assimilation)? This is a very important topic as it will have an overwhelming impact on our future and i could not bear to see something so important go forgotten.
I congratulate you Senator Quintus on your sucesses and your election to Consul.
As you know I was a firm believer that Pyrrhus would not split his forces as you foresaw, as it turns out I was correct in this matter. Results speak louder than words and you defeat of Pyrrhus is something to shout from the highest peaks!
As the Senate have touched on your proposal to enter Sicily would like to table a motion for the Senate to discuss.
Motion:
That we do not enter Sicily but secure the Italian peninsular from the Greeks and, instead, advance upon the Gauls in the North.
The reasons behind this proposal are, firstly, we have just gained trade rights with Carthage, a rich country. I strongly feel that any attack in Sicily will enrage them.
Secondly, the Gauls inhabit a fertile part of our country. The flood plains of the North are a potentally good source of income in the future. Coupled with this, I do not like our "rear" exposed whilst our main armies are so far away in the South and potentially across a sea.
I trust I have gone against any protochols by placing this motion thus.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: We have an emergency motion tabled by Senator Braden:
EMERGENCY MOTION #1: That we do not enter Sicily but secure the Italian peninsular from the Greeks and, instead, advance upon the Gauls in the North.
Are there any seconders for this motion?
Good Consul Quintus, I am glad that you prepared for the worst, even though the luck of the Gods were with you that glorious day. Many congratulations for ridding our peninsula of the scourge!
I do not second Senator Braden's motion. I say, send the Greeks to Greece! A hold in Sicily will be extremely beneficial as far as money, as it provides us with a direct land link to Carthaginian holdings. Also, it will be a good place to launch an attack upon Carthage after the Gauls have been dealt with.
Emergency Motion #2: That the Consular Army under Quintus seizes the settlements in Sicily under Greek control, while the Praetorian Army moves to take Jenuensis.
[QUINTUS]: Senators, it is with regret that I must come here to dissent from some of the counsel you have received.
Senator Publius Laevinius, to answer your question directly - no, we have not yet begun the process of assimilating our conquests. My priorities have been securing the loyalty of these provinces through establishing temples and then prompting trade and population growth through traders and mines.
In the medium term, I envisage continuing to rely on our Roman provinces to fuel our armies - being able to train three units each season seems sufficient, given our limited means. Moreover specialising our troop training will allow all our new recruits to have superior armour provided by the armourers I intend to construct. Our captured provinces I see as having a largely economic, rather than military role. Once our economic base is secure, then assimilating occupied provinces can be afforded but it is not currently a priority.
Senator Braden, I thank you for your congratulations on our victory against Pyrrhus. But do you suggest that I feinted and parried with Pyrrhus for two whole years to no avail? You forget, Sir, that in the end he did divide his army in one crucial respect - he divided it from its leader. The force I confronted outside Corfinium was led by a mere Captain, rather than the esteemed Epirote King. True, the King made it back to the battlefield in time to meet his end there, but I believe this lack of leadership helps explain our low casualties that day.
As to your motion, I confess it seems the height of folly - to stay my hand now, when I am about to drive the Greeks from our land borders once and for all. I believe the straits of Messina are sufficiently narrow that the Greeks may pass to and from Italy without the assistance of their navy. If we do not see this through, taking Messina and Syracuse, the Greeks will always be mounting expeditions such as that of Pyrrhus against us. Recall that this campaign will be very hard and that each of our rivals receives extra taxes worth 10,000 gold each season. I would rather the Greeks spend their gold battling the Macedonians or some other foe closer to their home, than spend it fighting us.
I opposed the previous motion to maintain Arretium and Arminium as a buffer against the Gauls. And I oppose your motion on the same grounds. Our destiny is to expand. If that brings us into contact with potential aggressors, then so be it. We will strike them down as I have struck down Pyrrhus. We have nothing to fear from Carthage or Gaul. Rather establishing early supremacy over them will ensure our future security when dealing with the greater threats to the east - the heirs of Alexander: Macedon, Seleucia and Egypt.
Senators, I urge you, do not tie my hands when we are so close to victory.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senator GeneralHankerchief, Jenuensis is now held by Gaul. Are you, like Senator Braden, proposing a declaration of war on Gaul?
I would also like to bring news that may be pertinent. General Tiberius Coruncanius has reported taking Paestum, although the fighting in the streets was bitter and our Praetorian army lost 184 men.
Consul Quintus, I did not realize these two newest developments had taken place. It would be suicide to attack the Gauls with a now-depleted Praetorian army. Emergency Motion 2 is withdrawn.
However, I must say that Jenuensis is far too close to Rome for my liking. If they are to attack my estate in the countryside might be destroyed! This is not a formal motion, but Consul: I urge that you deal with the Gauls using extreme caution. We do not want a war with these people until our armies are ready for it.
Senator Braden, I fear your motion would end the war against the Greeks prematurely and not allow us to exploit our victory against Pyrrhus fully, and that is something we must not do. We have the Greeks on the run, we must not stop advancing until we can advance no further. That will occur when we capture all Greek posessions accessible by land, which includes Syracuse, as we have the ability to ship our army across the Strait of Messina, but not to Epirus. To stop any earlier is to not take full advantage of the situation.
I understand you worry about Carthage, but they would be much more worrisome if they were to capture Messina and Syracuse. That must be prevented at all costs, even at the cost of war. Sicily should be considered an extension of Italy. He who controls it can invade Italy at will and with no warning. Indeed, a war with Carthage would be primarily over Sicily. If we were to capture Sicily, our army would be but one season's boat ride away from Carthage itself. Although I don't advocate that we should attack Carthaginian Sicily at this time, we must prevent them from taking all of Sicily, and also expel the Greeks.
As Consul Quintus has already expressed his wish to do exactly that, I don't believe Motion 2 is necessary.
A related issue I would like to bring up at this time is the pathetic state of our fleet. As a war fleet it is entirely useless against either the Carthaginian or Greek navies, and as a transport fleet, it is equally useless, not capable of supporting even a Praetorian army. If we were to get into a war with Carthage at this stage, we would be limited to fighting a defensive action in Sicily and Italy. I believe we must start increasing the fleet size for transport purposes, and build naval infrastructure in our cities so that we can introduce heavier and more capable ship types. We must do this as soon as funds allow.
However, the Speaker should note that I do not wish this to be a formal motion at this time, but merely a suggestion to the Consul, and to introduce the topic for discussion by the senate.
Now GeneralHankerchief has withdrawn his motion I propose emergeny motion 3 :
We must drive the greeks from Sicily, and not go to war with Gaul.
The reason for this is simple. We must not devide our attention on two enemies, but concentrate on driving the Greeks from Italy altogether. The reason this motion is not more specific is that I leave the implementation of this goal up to the first consul. I do advise the first consul to enter Sicily only in consular army strength at least, as the Cartheginians have powerful armies and might strike at us if we appear weak.
[QUINTUS]: Senator Lucius Amelius, I am in complete agreement with your motion. But for that reason, I would ask that you withdraw it - it mandates me today something that I already set upon doing!
My wish is that Emergency motion #1 is not seconded, we can conclude this mid-term session without requiring any voting and so I can return to the field on Sunday night. If our progress is rapid, we may begin looking for a new First Consul on Monday.
I retract motion #3.
I propose Motion #4
MOTION #4. I, Sextius Antio, move that we besiege Syracuse, take it, exterminate the populace, sack the city by destroying all principle buildings, and then withdrawing, and leaving Syracuse independent.
I shall provide an explanation in due course, as I do not have the time now.
Congratulations on a successful term so far, Consul Quintus! I apologise for not congratulating you sooner, for I have been busy practicing horse archery with a few Eastern friends of mine. I am delighted to hear of the destruction of Pyrrhus, as this means that the unification of Italia is inevitable!
:smash: Senator Antio, I must disagree with your view. I believe that Syracuse is, after all, a Sicilian city, and so must be treated differently from the other Greeks. The noble Sicilians might be persuaded to join our growing state by yourself, perhaps, with a little bit of monetary offering. Syracuse would be valuable to the Republic, opening up many trade routes with the Carthaginians to the West.
[QUINTUS]: I must interrupt these proceedings with two pieces of information that may be relevant.
First, my spies inform me that Carthage holds Messina. I confess I do not know how this came to be. The fog of war prevents me from knowing whether they have always in fact held this town. They are certainly not currently at war with Greece. This has implications for my proposed invasion of Sicily. If Greece holds Syracuse or some other states in Sicily, we may still use the land bridge across the straits and enter. But to do so now will mean violating Carthaginian territory and, if Syracuse falls, our new possession will be surrounded by Carthaginian provinces.
Second, Greece and Macedon have formed an alliance. I fear this will free the Greeks to concentrate on the avenging the loss of Pyrrhus.
Senators, I now believe Senator Braden was quite right to raise wider questions at this stage. The new information means that now is the time to decide our next move - specifically, whether we seek to expand north, through Cisalpine Gaul, or south, through Sicily. More bluntly - whether we seek war with Gaul or Carthage.
Following General Tiberius Coruncanius's report of victory at Paestum, I immediately marched most of my army to besiege Tarentum. It will fall by autumn. That leaves us more than two years before the election of the next First Consul. The only rebel town remaining adjacent to our lands is Rhegium and that will not require two years to take.
Gentlemen, I believe now is the time to decide - do we target Gaul or Carthage? Senator Braden's motion advocates the former and authorises war against Gaul. I submit an alternative motion:
Emergency Motion #5"This House instructs the First Consul to begin the conquest of Sicily. It gives advance authorisation for a declaration of war against Carthage to be made when the First Consul judges the time right."
Carthage must be destroyed! Do I have a seconder for this motion?
I disagree Consul,
I deem it in the best interest of our republic, and for that matter our warchest, to not attack Carthage.
I agree with Senator Braden to then go north, going north will eventually unite Italia - which I deem an important task - and will also not require the building of an immense navy needed for the invasion of Sicily.
Carthage will eventually be assimilated into our empire, but not now.
We still need their money, in the end they will finance their own destruction.
:balloon2:
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Thank you, Senator Dutch_guy. Based on your words, I am having the scribes assign you as the seconder of Senator Braden's motion. Please stop me if I have presumed too much.
I have no problem with that Consul.
:balloon2:
[QUINTUS]: I would like to address further the key issue of whether we move north against Gaul or south against Carthage.
Gentlemen, I think we are all in agreement that eventually, we must do both. The question before us is one of timing and sequence. I also think we will agree that - with only one Consular and one Praetorian army - we do not currently have the resources to do both now.
My proposal is to take Sicily first, expelling the Carthaginians. There are three reasons for this.
1) Carthage is the greater threat. Gaul is divided by the Alps and the quality of her armies is more inferior. If we leave her alone, she will still not pose much of a danger. By contrast, Carthage has great economic potential and can pay for fine soldiers in her armies. If we leave her alone, she will have a dominating influence over the region.
2) Taking Sicily would mean we no longer have a southern land border. It is true that Carthage may still land troops by sea, but such operations are inevitably slower and more infrequent. I believe we could hold Sicily against sea-born invasion with a single Praetorian army. By contrast, consider if we move north and retain a land border with Carthage (she holds Messina, which borders our next target Rhegium). In such a situation, a single Praetorian army may be insufficient. It will certainly be insufficient, if we intend to take Syracuse and yet remain at peace with the Carthaginian provinces that surround it.
3) Sicily is a more attractive prize than Cisalpine Gaul. In particular, it houses Syracuse. As you will see from a report posted in the Senate Library, of all the ports within the grasp of this Republic, only Syracuse and Tarentum have the potential to provide the finest warships. We must seize and develop these two ports, if we are to build navies that can rival those of Greece and Carthage.
Incidently, my third reason is why I believe my trusted emissary, Sextio Antius, is quite misguided to propose the extermination and abandonment of Syracuse. The port is an invaluable resource which we must seize and develop for ourselves.
I do not care either way whether we move North against Gaul or South against Carthage. Indeed I believe that we can do both at the same time. But this not the topic i wish to discuss.
I would first like to pur forth my motions.
First motion: The first step in auxiliary assimilation must be begun in all provinces we have currently taken (from Arminium to Rhegium and all in between) by the end of your term.
Second motion: The previous motion will be given priority over any other building project in these newly conquered provinces.
I was sad to hear that Senator Quintus has neglected this very important task which i believe is a great folly on his part. From the time we begin active assimilation of our new holdings, it will be 15 seasons until we can begin to recruit auxiliary troops from them and even more until we can begin to recruit true Roman troops from them. This is nearly four years and an incredibly lengthy process. Even if Senator Quintus began this process in all of the newly captured cities immediatly it would well into the next consul's term or even later before we would even be able to recruit troops from these cities. Senators, I fear our easy victory over Pyrrhus has given you an inflated view of the capabilities of our own military.
While you squabble over what great military power to attack next you forget that we can still only recruit three units per season in our core provinces which lie far from the front lines. Do you truly believe that we can sustain a war effort with just these three provinces. Indeed, it would quite literally take years to send these reinforcements to Carthage. How do you propose to support our armies without timely reinforcements and aid. It is an incredible folly to think that we can and perhaps only a true defeat will show you the truth in what i have said.
It is imperative if we are to attack any other nation to expand the support base from which we can recruit troops. Not only will the process of auxiliary assimilation increase the number of troops we can recruit but it will allow us to recruit them closer to our front lines. Suddenly it will not take us years to supply our armies with reinforcements but only a season or two.
Because this process is such a lengthy one and we will not reap the benefits for several years it is all the more necessary to begin the process now so that when the time comes and we truly need to assemble an army in a time of need we are not left utterly weak and exposed because we can only call up three units per season. What could we do if the greeks sent an army from their mainland by boat? There would not be nearly enough time to react to the threat. Our army would be a ragtag group of a handful of town garrisons constituted of the too young and the too old. Would you trust the fate of our empire in the hands of such an army when faced with the polished shields and spears of the greeks upon our soil once more?
I most certainly would not. But if we had the ability to recruit auxiliaries from all of our other provinces then we could assemble a true army in minimal time to turn back any more greek attempts ever.
I am sure that you all see the necessity of beginning the auxiliary assimilation of our new provinces immediatly. The sooner it is begun, the sooner we can reap the benefits.
So senators, before you fill your head with dreams of defeating gaul or carthage, ask yourself first how we can support such a war. Where will we draw the necessary forces? Rome, Capua, and Ancona can only take so much conscription before their populations will be depleted. Who will be left to farm the fields and raise the livestock when we have recruited every available man in Rome? You, senator? No, Senators, bring yourselves down from your lofty dreams and goals. It would be a grave folly to extend our borders much farther without a larger support base for our armies.
[QUINTUS]: Senator Publius Laevinius, your long term thinking is to your credit. At your prompting, I have begun building an auxiliary barracks at Arretium, the first province that we conquered.
However, I resent the charge of neglect. In captured settlements, this has been my preferred build order:
1. Temples, if necessary for loyalty (ideally I seek to be able to impose high taxes on all settlements, subject to allowing population growth)
2. Traders, for income and for population growth in slow growing settlements.
3. Mines, if available, for income.
After this, I am open to persuasion and, if there are other Senators of the same view as Senator Laevinius, I will prioritise auxiliary buildings.
Obviously, Tarentum is a separate case - as potentially the finest port available to use, I believe it is essential to work towards establishing naval facilities there.
However, I oppose your motion, good Senator. I repeat - we have the capacity to raise the core of a legion (1 velite, 1 hastati, 1 princeps) each season. But we do not have currently have the income to sustain such a level of recruitment. My building priorities will give us the income we need. In the meantime, I maintain that our scarce resources be devoted to establishing armourers in our Roman provinces, so that what troops we do raise have superior equipment to their enemies.
I realize that for the moment three units per season is sufficient. But you must realize that our position in the world will be vastly cahnged four years from now and i dare sya that in four years we may be desperate for more troops on our borders. I implore you to realize that although now our armies may seem sufficient and able to handle what is placed before them, if we do not begin the process of auxiliary assimilation now, in four years we may find ourselves in very dire straights when three units per season are not even enough to sustain one front let alone potentially several. I do not pretend to say that we need the units now. I am saying that we WILL need the units in several years and I am saying that if we do not begin this process now we WILL be sorely sorry that we did not.
I would also like to ask that with the help of the consul, the librarians should continue to update our world maps and family trees.
[SENATE SPEAKER]:
Regrettably, the Senate Librarian is preoccupied with other duties. However, he will attend to this on his return.Quote:
Originally Posted by shifty157
However, members of the Lower House can always make the relevant inquiries themselves. [OOC: download the Senate278S.zip savegame from the Org uploader http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Up.../pbmupload.php
and take a look).
Senators, if I may direct you back to foreign matters for a moment. If I understand correctly, the city of Syracuse is now the only non-Carthaginian population center on the island of Sicily. It must be taken at all costs!
Nevertheless, I do believe that if we approve your motion, Consul, we are giving you a little too much freedom. Rome was not meant to have an absolute ruler. For that reason, I cannot second your motion. Instead, we take Syracuse, watch as the trade profits come rolling in, and strike when ready. We now have potential enemies on three sides of us. We must do everything that we can to ensure that the conflict is put off until it is beneficial to us.
Emergency Motion 8: The house proposes that Syracuse be taken as soon as possible. However, further conquest of Sicily does not happen, and good relations with the Carthaginians are maintained.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: I am sorry to have to rush my honorable friends, but I remind you all that the deadline for the submission of motions is 6pm UK time (only 10 minutes away). Any motion which is not submitted and seconded by that time cannot be voted on. Therefore, Senator GeneralHankerchief's motion urgently requires a seconder if it is to be put to the vote.
My dear senators,
I is good to see such a lively debate. It shows your deep interest in the welfare of the state and does you credit. I would like to say I think both senator Publius Laevinius and consul Quintus are correct.
We will need to increase our recruitment ability as fast as we possibly can. The barbarians to our north are able to field vast armies should they wish. Their troops are vastly inferior to ours of course, but the simple process of attrition will be a danger in itself should we end up in conflict with them. The Carthaginians are the most powerful nation in the mediterranean. Should we end up in conflict with them, we can expect to see the equivalent of a consular army being shipped to Sicily every two turns or so, my military advisors inform me. We will hardly be able to counter shuch a threat, let alone prevail. The best we can hope for is a stalemate. However, to be able to finance this, we will need to improve our financial position. That is why I think senator Quintus has handled correctly so far. I do not think we can win a war in Sicily at this moment. If we strike at Syracuse and Messana, we will not be able to hold both, as we lack the troops. If we strike at Syracuse alone, we will place ourselves in a very dangerous position, as we will leave the route to our inner provinces open, and the moment we leave the city, we will lose it. So it would be a futile exercise and extremely risky as well. We will need to take a strategic location in the south or in Sicily which blocks the route into Italy and guard it with a consular army. Then we can continue the years long consilidation process in relative safety. When we are able to recruit in many of our towns in Italy we will be able to attack Sicily and win the war.
My suggestions are these :
emergency motion #8 :
Let us concentrate on building short-term finanical improvements, like traders and markets, and whenever possible roads. When our towns and cities are equipped with these, our first priority should be auxilia buildings.
emergency motion #9 : Let us try to increase our standing military to four legions.
emergency motion #10 : Let us capture Rhegium and build a fort at he entrance to Southern Italy and station a consular army there.
emergency motion #11 : Let us capture Rhegium and Messana and station a consular army in Messana.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: This session of Senate is now closed. No more motions may be proposed or seconded. Voting will begin imminently on those already tabled. Votes will be counted at 6pm UK time Monday.
Debate may of course continue.
:ave: More debate while I'm at the academy? This is not a plot to make my father lose support, is it?
Enough of idle chatter on my behalf. :smash: I support both motions that senator Aemilius has put forward, as if we immediately Romanise the entire Roman section of Italia, we will not have the money to recruit those troops! We must increase our economic output, gentlemen. The lands we have are larger now, and so our armies must keep up. In order to successfully counter the Carthaginians, we must be rich enough to keep sending men at them.
This means a powerful navy. If we declare war on Carthage, we must first make sure of naval supremacy. What happens when they destroy our fleets, and repeatedly launch naval invasions and blockades? Rome would be fighting a losing war, and unable to attack the Carthaginians on the other side of the Mediterranean. We must build and sustain a large fleet, capable of cutting off Carthago from her overseas holdings in the form of Iberia, Sardinia, Corsica and Baliares. The city of Melite can be easily taken due to its distance from Sicilia, and we will be able to sail an army there right under their noses.
Due to my policy, I must say that I do not fully agree with my father's strategy. One full praetorian army is simply unnecessary. We could station this Legio IV in Campania, where it will be able to react to an attack on the fort, on Rhegium, on Croton, on Tarentum, on Capua, on Paestum, on Corfinium and even an attack on Roma herself. Another Praetorian stack north of this, aimed at the protection of the Northern states of Ancona, Jeneuensis, Arretium, Ariminium, and eventually Bononia, Mediolanium and Patavium.
Senators, I believe we are now in a more dangerous situation than when Pyrrhus was still alive. If there has been one folly in the Consul's term to this point, it has been that he has not kept an eye on Carthage. An earlier report would have been essential to give the Senate enough time to debate an issue as important as this.
At this point, I am not prepared to authorize a war, and I believe that those who are are hasty in doing so. We have only now found out that Carthage even holds Messina, we know nothing about our potential enemy. We don't know the strength of their army in Sicily, in Africa, and the strength of that navy. We know nothing about the Gauls either, I don't believe a scout has ever ventured very far north. We don't even know what the Consul's plan is in conducting the proposed war and winning it. Indeed, I find it somewhat underhanded of Consul Quintus to himself propose a motion authorizing himself to conduct a war without telling the senate about how he plans to do that and why he believes that he can win.
I will not approve a war without being convinced that it is the strategically correct thing to do. I do not believe that we can go on the offensive against Carthage after capturing Sicily, because of the poor state of our fleet, nor that we can go on the offensive against Gaul while keeping a sufficient deterrent against Carthage in the Strait of Messina. Until I am convinced otherwise, I will approve no war.
As for the rest of the motions, they are far too numerous, and many are mutually exclusive, there has not been significant debate on the issues, and we are not certain of our next major step yet. As a result, I will vote against all motions.
Consul Quintus should finish securing southern Italy, and take steps to prepare us for war, not the least of which should be the gathering of intelligence on Carthage and Gaul, but also further supplementing our legions, and, most importantly, the fleet, and building neccessary infrastructure, as he sees fit.
Your words are wise, my friend. Seeing your stance on the prospect of war, should we perhaps recruit some young agents to spy on Carthago on behalf of Rome? I know of dozens such men in my home, where my father has left me to study. They would all willingly serve Rome. Even to the death, if that is what is asked of them.
[QUINTUS]: Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, on the matter of constructing a fleet, some progress can now be made given that I have identified Tarentum and Syracuse as the two ports with the greatest potential for constructing advanced warships. This discovery is one reason why I think it is imperative that we secure Syracuse without delay. It is also a reason why I am voting against all the motions setting out our priorities for spending. In my opinion, we must prioritise neither auxiliary barracks nor economic infrastructure, but the development of a first class army and navy. That will require both armourers in Roman territories and large-scale investments in developing Tarentum.
As to the Senator's accusation of being underhand, I do not yet plan a war against Carthage. I plan to end a war against Greece. We must drive the last remaining Greeks from the lands that are rightfully ours - from Syracuse. But to do that will require marching through Carthaginian territory. All I ask is the authorisation to strike should my Consular army secure Syracuse and find the surrounding Carthaginian settlements lightly defended. If you refuse me that power, then our garrison will be isolated and vulnerable. Further, any attempt to withdraw our Consular army will again infringe Carthaginian territory. This will likely enrage our neighbours, prompting the war that the Senator fears. Stopping now and leaving Syracuse in Greek hands is to leave them both a valuable prize and a way to strike at us in the south at will. Geography dictates what we must do. Italy and Sicily must be secure from any attacks by land. There are no such imperatives to drive us north into Gaul, where further expansion will only widen our land borders.
But Senator Tiberius Coruncanius is correct on one point - I am confident that we can drive the Carthaginians out of Sicily. He asks for my plans and for why I think I can win. I say this plainly, with no arrogance: with a Consular army at my command, I can defeat any army that Carthage could currently field against us. Remember - they, like us, are only gradually mobilising their potential. And while we are able to concentrate almost all our force in the south, Carthage's holdings in Sicily are separate from her both their homeland and their scattered homelands. Just as Pyrrhus was only able to field half our strength in battle against me, so I believe I will be able to overwhelm the Carthaginians in Sicily.
As to the precise plan, the simplicity of the strategic situation allows only one possible plan. Having secured Syracuse, I would strike first at Messana, moving swiftly on Agrigento and finally Lybauem. Our victories would be swift - I believe only the latter city has any walled defences. Thereafter, we should hold. Build up our fleets and prepare to take the war across the seas to surrounding islands and in time, Carthage herself. However, the precise conduct of that wider war will doubtless be a matter for future First Consuls, other than myself.
I urge you, Senators - you have elected a warrior as First Consul: let him fight!
I would like to mention a correction, Syracuse is also equipped with walls. Furthermore, I understand senator Quintus's reasoning and do not think he will fail to defeat the armies stationed in Sicily, but I still think he will be overwhelmed eventually. Where will the troops come from to garrison the settlements he captures ? If he weakens the army by stripping units as he goes along, he invites disaster. Carthage will not stand idly by while we plunder their cities, they will send strong reinforcements. We are not able to do that, lacking auxilia and a navy.
The main threat is this :
If senator Quintus and his army are defeated in Sicily we will have no backup or reserves to counter the counter attack that will surely follow. We stand to lose all we have gained so far.
I counsel patience. Let us strike when we are ready. I counsel you all against war with Carthage. Her time will come later.
Consul Quintus, I applaud the decisiveness of your plan to drive all the way to Lilybaeum, but I ask you, then what? Without a fleet, you can go no further. At that point, the initiative will shift to Carthage, they will be able to not only attack your army but land anywhere behind you. I doubt the Carthaginians would agree to a ceasefire at that point, so I do not believe that this is a war that can be concluded at this time, which is why I believe that it should not be started. While Syracuse must be captured in time, it is at this time effectively shielded by the Carthaginians. When we are prepared to fight a war with Carthage may we take Syracuse.
Well, we will not have the ability to even recruit troops if we do not. So we'll have large amounts of money but no army to recruit with it. What you are arguing is shortsighted and simplistic. You fail to realize that the money for buildings is spent immediatly on their commencement on construction and not when they are completed. There will be plenty of money to recruit more men when the assimilation is complete. But do you propose to take on the entire Carthaginian empire on three units per turn? You may as well propose to lose the war before it has even begun. Our empire does not stretch across any bodies of water and therefore for the present a large navy is entirely frivolous and a large navy WILL drain immense amounts of money from our treasuries. If you propose such a navy THEN we will not have the money to recruit those troops which you propose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
Bah. In four years time when our empire is in dire condition because we cannot reinforce our armies you will all have wished you had begun the auxiliary assimilation of our new provinces now and not waited. Of course then it will be too late because at that point it will take another four years to fix such a grave mistake.
I can only hope that our Consul has enough sense to begin this process in earnest even though the senate in its shortsightedness has voted against it. The fate of the future of our empire has now been placed by the senate on a vague hope. I am sorry if i prefer to place our future in the strength of our armies. I believe that to be a little more substantial in times such as these.
These are my thoughts exactly. And who can argue against them? We can not propose to go into wars against vast empires on three units per turn. It simply cannot be done. It is illogical. We must begin the auxiliary assimilation of our new provinces immediatly so that we can gain this capability as soon as possible. Without it our war effort is crippled. I urge those senators who have not yet cast their votes to vote in approval of motions 4 and 5. We must prepare ourselves for the future now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds
Senator Publius Laevinus, I believe you overestimate the infrastructure needed to reinforce an army. Even if at war with Carthage, we certainly do not plan on losing three units every quarter! Our current production can reinforce an army and provide garrison at the moment, but you are right that the process of assimilation should be started, as it is a slow one. However, it should be started slowly, perhaps at one province, and not be given top priority, which should belong to the fleet.
You say that we do not need a fleet, as our republic does not stretch across any bodies of water. And you are right, but if we don't get a fleet, our republic will never stretch across any body of water! It would be like saying that we don't need a big army because our republic is small. But to enlarge our republic, we must first build an army. Just as an increase in army precedes an increase in territory, so must an increase in the size of the fleet precede the control of the seas. And if we are to defeat Carthage, or even survive against Carthage, we must gain control of the western Mediterranean.
One last thing I would like to point out, Senator, is a small error on your part in calling our republic an empire. Some Senators may take offense at that.
I am sorry. This most likely results from a difference in connotation. I believe any state regardless of government form that has taken territory through conquest and expanded its borders to be an empire. Perhaps others believe that an empire requires an emporer to rule it. This is not true. An emporer is the result of an empire and not the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYdude
Therefore i regard our nation as an empire because we have gained territory through conquest and not because we have an emporer (which we clearly do not).
I agree with your point as to the navies. We will need a large navy. In time. Not now. We can wait a small while for our navy. But we must begin our auxiliary assimilation now or otherwise it will never be done in time. And so when the time comes near to sail from Lilybaeum for Carthage herself we can begin the construction of our navy because that will only take a small amount of turns and at that time i will fully support you. Before then I believe that auxiliary assimilation of our new lands is more important to begin now.
To put this another way. If we began the auxiliary assimilation now and waited to construct the navy both it and the navy would be completed in time for full scale war in other lands. If we built the navy now and waited to begin the auxiliary assimilation until later we would find ourselves with only a large navy when the time came for full scale war.
We have two choices:
I. To attack Messana and thus Carthage.
II. To attack Syracuse.
Noble Senators, those vile Carthaginians have driven out Italians. This is a shocking act of barbarity for a civilized republic as Carthage.
However, undue haste may be our downfall. If he advance without a fleet, we may be isolated in Sicily. And if we build a fleet, we may be overrun in Sicily.
I most humbly suggest that we declare war immediately on Carthage! Lest anyone say that Rome was a city of cowards.
[QUINTUS]: Senators, I hear many conflicting voices and confess I am somewhat at a loss to discern any consensus from our deliberations. I will have to await the outcome of the votes tomorrow evening before deciding my next course of action. But rest assured, if authorised to declare war on Carthage, I will not do so precipitously.
I thank you for the clarification. I was not clear when I spoke - I was asked to give my plans for a war against Carthaginian territories in Sicily. Syracuse is held by Greece and I would take it before declaring war on Carthage, therefore I did not count it when assessing Carthage's defences. Indeed, the strong walls of Syracuse would actually be an asset in any campaign against Carthage in Sicily, as they mean that we could leave the city lightly garrisoned while we seize first Messina and then Agrigento.Quote:
Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds
On the concern about being overwhelmed by Carthage, recall that we are capable of producing the core of a Roman legion each turn. Such reinforcements would be sufficient, I believe, to allow us to garrison occupied cities without unduly depleting our Consular army. The constraint will be on finding the finance to be able to support such recruitment. However, I believe rapid acquisition of Sicily may decisively strengthen our economy.
I would just like to make a small, but crucial point which might be taken up in your considerations. Construction of auxilia is immensively expensive and timeconsuming. I urge you to vote to build traders and markets first, because they take a short time to build and are less expensive. They provide a deperately needed cash boost which we will need to build the auxilia buildings themselves while paying our troops. Also, the barbarian towns to our north are hardly profitable. The money we will need to spend to conquer, guard and develop them will constitute a cash-drain on our economy. The roads are vital military and also profitable. That said, the very next priority should be auxilia buildings.
I would like to point out to the consul that the Cartheginians are reported to have massive warbeasts called 'elephants' stationed in Sicily, which are strong enough to bash through the gates of a walled city. They will thus not have to siege the city while our troops are occupied elsewhere, but can attack immediately. I trust you will not neglect this in your strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
Consul Quintus, my primary concern over the war with Carthage is that your offensive will become stalled once you reach Lilybaeum and the fleet cannot support your offensive to Carthaginian lands across the sea. This will give Carthage time, perhaps to mount a counter-attack, or to bypass you and attack Italy via the sea. I would be much more willing to go to war if your offensive did not have to stop in Lilybaeum, that is, if we had a better fleet. I do not wish to give the Carthaginians time. When they receive a report about your capture of Messina, I want you to be landing in Africa by the time their senate is done deliberating about what is to be done about defending Sicily!
Coruncanius, how long will you try our patience! Carthage must be attacked now! If we linger, it will be them that mount an offensive.
Antio, we cannot attack Carthaginian lands outside of Sicily because we don't have a fleet. As far as Carthage knows at the moment, we are friendly to them. A large army stationed in the south will further convince them. If we capture Sicily, they will know that we're hostile, but we will still lack the ability to attack them further, and will have no choice but to linger! It is then that you should really worry about a Carthaginian attack. What you suggest is madness.
But do you realize that since they are so timeconsuming, if we do not begin building them now then they will be completed much too late to be of any use against Gaul or Carthage. Our economy is sufficiently stable to support such expenditures at the present. Our army however may not be sufficiently stable enough to function without them in the coming years. You senators talk about how powerful Carthage is and difficult the war will be but you take no action to support and strewngthen our military for the long term. Every turn that we delay in beignning the process of auxilia assimilation is at least one turn in the future that we will stunt our own growth and expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds
Senators let me also bring another point to your attention. There have been rumors from the north. From Aretium and Arminium. The rumors speak of Gaulish spies in our towns and villages making inquiries as to our militaries and garrisons and the locations of our major cities. I have given these rumors little credit until recently when i recieved word from our governor in Aretium that a Gaulish spy has been identified within the city. The spy unfortunatly escaped the garrison forces as is currently wandering within our own borders. The presence of this spy is a great disturbance to me. I believe it clearly displays the intentions of the Gauls. At this point, the question is not IF the Gauls will attack our land but merely WHEN they will be ready to. Currently we know nothing of what lies beyond the Gaulish border and I fear we may be shocked and horrified when we find out.
Indeed, war with Gaul is coming regardless of if we are prepared for it or when we would like it to happen. We already know that war with Carthage is also on the horizon. Could we support both fronts with three units per turn? Could we support two wars against two of the largest most powerful factions in the known world on three units per turn?
The barbarian war machine is already moving in our direction and it sits only a very short distance from our city of Rome. We must be ready.
So, you propose that we build up auxiliaries. Fine. But then, where will all the money come from? The gods will not shower money down upon us, and our current territories require more troops to defend them with. As our economy improves, we will no doubt gain a larger army to defend out lands with. The process of assimilation can then begin, when our economy is strong enough to cope with the burden of no more economical upgrades and money put into assimilation of the Italian League. You speak as if we are in desperate need of armies to defend ourselves from Carthage. Carthage is currently not at war with us, and so we still have time on our side.Quote:
Originally Posted by shifty157
I therefore propose that to strike the perfect balance, we should begin assimilation of any two cities the consul pleases with immediate effect, and improve the economy in the rest of our state to support this project.
I find myself wavering due to senator Publius Laevinius (shifty157) argument. I would not have a problem with starting the auxilia process immediately in one or even two cities that have a decent population. Still, we will need to concentrate on increasing our revenue in our other cities in my opinion. An Auxilia II building goes for ca. 8000 denarii. It will take us two or more seasons to raise this kind of money at the moment. I wonder if we do not at the moment posess two cities that already have a market and roads ? Those would be ideal and could be given priority above all other cities.
Edit : It seems senator Tiberius agrees with me. This is very pleasing.
[QUINTUS]: Noble Senators, I have been studying the votes already cast and your will is becoming clearer to me. But I have one question on which I would seek your counsel. It considers Motion 7 - the creation of a fourth legion. My question is this - where should that legion be deployed in the event that I strike into Sicily?
Currently, we have three legions - two attached to our Consular army and one to our Praetorian army. (Here I do count only our mobile forces - not the troops spread across our settlements in garrisons.) Both armies are accompanied by corresponding alae, made up by our Italian brothers. All are somewhat understrength but within the year will be replenished.
Suppose we raise a fourth legion, where should it be assigned? I see three possibilities:
- in the north, with our Praetorian army, to guard against Gaulish incursions. This addition would make our Praetorian army effectively a second Consular army.
- in the centre, to guard against seaborne incursions in our heartlands or to reinforce either the north or the south if under threat.
- in Sicily, to assist the Consular army in its conquest of Carthaginian settlements (again, I do not mean light garrison duties - these will be performed by other formations).
I would welcome any thoughts on this question. My personal inclination would be to assign the legion to the centre, acting as a strategic reserve. However, some of your talk of the danger of facing Carthage counsels against this.
Pray remember, I wish only your advice made on the assumption that we strike Carthage in Sicily and not Gaul in the north.
A 4 unit garrison in our northern towns is sufficient to hold of any Gaul army. I therefore propose send the third legion to guard the rear of the Consul army should it invade Sicily, to make sure no army slips past him into our undefend heartland. The fourth legion I'd advise to station next to Rome to serve as a 'Guard' division to counter any invasion in our mainland or to supress a rebel uprising, should it occur.
If the consular army alone is sufficient to conquer Sicily then I would advise that IV Legion be stationed in central Italy to deter any Carthaginian invasion attempt, or to react to it should it occur.
Legio IV should be placed in the centre of our core cities: Roma, Capua and Ancona. This is almost the centre of our lands, and so any naval invasion can be answered to swiftly and decisively. I agree that the Gauls are no major threat. They are barbarians, after all. One Praetorian army is enough to hold them off. I therefore urge that Legio IV be raised immediately for the defense of Italia against any Carthaginian assault.
Why may i ask would any army land in the center of Italy? If we charge into Sicily then Carthage would support its troops in Sicily with reinforcements and not mount a time consuming expedition by sea to Rome. Would you do this in Carthage's position? No. It would be a foolish alocation of forces when all of sicily stands on the brink of collapsing.
The greeks then. They hate us right? Not enough to divert forces away from their wars with Macedon who threatens them on their own soil. Would you send forces off on overseas expeditions when war rages around your own capital? If the Greeks find any reason to send troops in our direction it will be to Syracuse where they at least have some stake in keeping the city alive and in their hands.
The Gauls then. No i wont even waste my tongue disproving any Gaulish seaborne invasion when they are only a two season march from Rome as it is.
So I say that this army should be assigned to one of the two fronts. Personally i dont believe that so few troops as you state could hold off a Gaulish invasion and therefore I think some reinforcements to the north would be very well placed. I also believe that a Consular army with reinforcements is more than adequate to conquer Sicily.
Now I return to Senator Tiberius' argument that we are not currently at war with Carthage or Gaul and therefore we do not need to begin auxiliary assimilation. How many times do i need to repeat myself that i know this. WE DO NOT NEED THE EXTRA TROOPS NOW. But in 15 seasons (4 years) we will. Alot can happen in 15 seasons. Indeed in 15 seasons we may be landing on the shores of Carthage herself. In 15 seasons we may be in the heart of the Gaulish empire. In 15 seasons we may have landed another army onto the shores of Greece. This is all possible because 15 seasons is a huge amount of time. What will you do then when we are forced to divide our meager three reinforcements between Gaul and Carthage? What will you do then when those same reinforcements are forced to undertake a journey of several years just to reach the front line? You speak of wasting money. I think it is a huge waste of money to pay our troops every season to march 2 years and never once lift their swords just to reach the front line.
But again I am thinking of the future and you are thinking of only the present.
Where will the money come from? Do you really expect our armies to sit around for four years languishing in dissuse? No. They will be conquering more provinces in Sicily and northern Italy. We will agin our funds from all of these new holdings which will literally double the size and income of our empire. Suddenly a few thousand denari isnt as big an expense when our treasury makes an income of in excess of 10,000 denari every season!
Or we could wait until our treasury reaches this amount and begin the auxiliary assimilation then. And then we can have the money and then we can wait the 4 years. But by the time they are done only one of two things could have happened. The first being that the war is completely over. The second and far more probable being that our stingy reinforcements were not sufficient to withstand the entire military weight of the Carthaginian empire and were decisively defeated resulting in a fearful stale mate or worse a complete loss of the war.
We must begin now so that we can reap the benefits before it is too late for them.
Im sure that there are buildings in many of the previously Greek cities which are of no use to us and can be disassembled or sold for more money.
QUINTUS: Senator Publius Laevinius, on a point of information I regret to remind you that Greece and Macedon are currently allied. I agree that a naval landing in the centre of Italy by Carthage is unlikely. If they come, it will surely be near Lilybauem as it is closest to their homeland.
However, I believe a landing by Greece in the centre or south - near Tarentum - is a contingency we must prepare for. It is only a stone's throw away from their territory in Illyria, whereas Syracuse is several season's passage. Armies in the north or in Sicily would not be able to respond in time, particularly given the lack of a road network.
So, senator, you propose that we only assimilate. This costs an incredibly high amount of money, which I doubt we could manage while we 'conquer more provinces in Sicily and Northern Italy'.
Are you so naive to believe that wars will benefit our treasuries immediately? Wars are expensive, as they cost trade with our neighbours, and cost the lives of many good Romans. Many new recruits will have to be drafted to support a war against Carthage, and I doubt that we will gain very much from Sicily when our economy is weak. Why? Because we would still be poor, and Carthage has the finest navy in the sea. Sicily's riches are due to its trade routes, not due to many abundant resources.
When Carthage blocks all the trade routes, I then ask you. How would we attack the Carthaginian homeland? How would we gain enough funds to build a fleet to defend our Italian holdings and transport troops to Africa? The answer is, we cannot. If all of the senators were as warmongering as you are, then Rome is a lost cause and will be doomed.
I will not allow Rome to fall, and the lack of funds is the surest road to destruction. Do not believe that we are invincible, having conquered much of Italia. Pyrrhus was but one general and a first test for Rome. The Carthaginians will be able to muster many more troops than Pyrrhus, and our army will be but one third larger than when we faced Pyrrhus.
Conscript Fathers, what is this blood-lust that has come over you all?
We have not even finished the war with Greece and yet some of you are full of talk of wars with Carthage and Gaul! Thankfully there are some true Romans out there with some common sense such as Publius Laevenius and my father Lucius Amelius. War with Carthage at this point would be madness! Our armies have not the strength to fight a long war with such a superpower, and our navy nowhere near strong enough to conduct a war with anyone, let alone Carthage!
As for those of you who propose war with Gaul, you contradict yourself noble Senators! On the one hand you tell us that they are a threat who must be destroyed, then in the same breath you tell us they are weak and will be easily conquered! Which is it Conscript Fathers? I support those who say that war with Gaul will just add a further drain to our resources as we must rebuild their Barbarian settlements to civilized Roman standards.
And I must add, what have Carthage and Gaul done for us to declare war on them with such surprise and haste? Oh, I know all about our history with those two, I haven't forgotten. But,
*bangs fist*
THIS IS NOT THE ROMAN WAY!!!!!!!
I repeat Conscript Fathers, this is not the Roman way!!!
I urge our Consul Quintus to pursue a policy of consolidation, of Romanising our Italian acquisitions, of building our strength for the trials which lie ahead. And of finishing the war with Greece! How can some of you talk of war across the mediterranean, when at any moment the Greeks may stab us from behind? We must first finish the war with Greece, either through a diplomatic agreement, or by taking this war to their shores, before we do anything else. Sadly, I was unable to attend the Senate yesterday, for if I was I would have proposed a motion in this regard.
*sits down*
I do not like war with Carthage, but unless we act, they shall attack us. Knowing that consuls want to gain a favour and popularity by victorious wars, it is no surprise that some of the future candidates are supporting this.
And young Manius, should you not be in bed asleep? I am deeply shocked and suprised that your father let you come to the Senate at this late hour, and even more surprised that he let you, a minor, express his own opinion in such a forceful way, against a noble Senator, and your elder.
But we are in no position to support a war with Carthage! We may quick and easy gains on Sicily, but once they have regrouped from that, their ability to recruit large armies, and their strong navy give them the ability to strike us at will! If war must come, at least let us make sure we are strong enough for it!.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
These are exceptional times Sextus. Though the Mos Maorium forbids it, you entered the Senate before the age of 30, and were furthermore sent on an important diplomatic mission. Rome does not currently have enough patricians of noble birth to go around, so underage men like you and I must step into the breach.Quote:
And young Manius, should you not be in bed asleep? I am deeply shocked and suprised that your father let you come to the Senate at this late hour, and even more surprised that he let you, a minor, express his own opinion in such a forceful way, against a noble Senator, and your elder.
Conscript Fathers! I believe I have a solution to the problem of trying to take Syracuse, and ending the war with Greece!
Perhaps we could send Sextus Antio, on a diplomatic mission to Greece to offer them a ceasefire, in return for which we would receive Syracuse. Roman honour would be satisfied with such a peace deal, and we would receive the strategically vital deep water port that we crave. Let me know your thoughts Conscript Fathers.
That is a wise suggestion, my friend, but I do not think the Greeks will give in so easily. They would most likely demand their former Italian possessions should we sue for peace, and perhaps even demand monetary compensation for their loss.
I agree with you though, Manius, in that war is unnecessary. It will happen, of that I am sure. But why should we Romans be the aggressors? Unless they violate a treaty or attack a friend of Rome, I see no reason to attack Carthage yet. We should consolidate our holdings on the Italian peninsula for now, assimilating some of the peoples and strengthening the economy of the rest of Italia. Gold is vital to our survival, and so must be put before the complete assimilation of Italia and the granting of Roman citizenship to them.
For now, I suggest that we follow my father's suggestion, and take a defensive stance on the mainland. Only when we are powerful enough can we attempt to fight the mighty Carthaginians. We must be patient, and build up our strength while the Phoenicans wrestle with the Numidians and Iberians for control of both their homelands respectively. We should not actively seek war with Carthage, but I suggest an alliance with her enemies, to enable us to fight one enemy at a time.
Amvlivs Tiberivs Coruncanivs
I disagree Senator Manius, though I am currently in the wilds of Scythia, and long to see civilization again, Rome has need of my services. It takes my couriers weeks to reach Rome, and I fear it would take at least 18 months to retrace my steps to Greece. I instead suggest that I may continue on my way until Egypt, and there march along the coast to Carthage where I may be of some use.
Senator Manius, you are but 15 years of age. I applaud your zeal and desire to serve the Republic, but I have learnt one or two things from the nations I have passed through, and one of them is that Greeks are stubborn fools, and will never make peace that favours Rome.
Then we must make them accept peace. If we cannot come to peace terms with them, then surely the war must be taken to the Greek homelands? Perhaps they will be more, er, malleable, once it is their homes that are threatened...
I do believe that Senator Antio is overworked. I suggest that at least one, maybe two other of our senators be ambassadors to Rome. The first new diplomat could be in contact in the factions we are keeping an eye on (such as Carthage, for example) and the second could be stationed in Italia, ready for the worst.
I am but a lowly Upper House senator, but I volunteer myself for this task.
While I applaud my son's zeal for our nation, and admire the hot blood which is clearly flowing trough his veins, I feel the plan of an invasion is also beyond our present means. This calls for a fleet, which we cannot afford unfortunately. Then again, he has gotten me thinking that if we capture Syracuse and the Greeks feel that all hope of regaining their colonies is lost, then they might be more receptive to an offer of ceasefire.
So perhaps a quick surgical strike at Syracuse and the eradication of all Greek forces in Italy and Sicily might be the best solution. With the Greeks out of our hair we face only one potential enemy in the south of Italy, namely Carthage.
If we try this, we must march in such force that Carthage won't dare to waylay our armies. I recommend sending in the consular army, while the third legion guards the route into Italy south of Rhegium. We will need a fourth legion to watch our northern borders while we do this. I further recommend we enslave the population of Syracuse and sell all the military and greek auxilia buildings. If we have to make a hasty retreat later due to unforseen circumstances, we will still have profitted from this raid.
This is just an idea, there are certainly risks associated with this plan. What do you think, my fellow senators ?
[SENATE SPEAKER]: It is now the Summer of 276. By Jove, doesn't time fly? First Consul Quintus has posted a commentary on the past two years in his reports to Senate. He has only two more seasons in office, but currently awaits news from Legate Tiberius Coruncanius of an engagement with rebels outside Ancona.
Senators, in view of the passage of time, we may soon expect to have to elect a new First Consul and to decide on the future direction of our great republic if First Consul Quintus is successful in his aim of securing Sicily. Provided we hear soon from Legate Coruncanius, I expect to open a full end-term of Senate in the next day or two. After that announcement, there will be two days for debate, the proposing of motions and the nomination of candidates for first Consul, followed by one day for voting.
But I encourage you now to nominate yourselves as candidates for the position of First Consul and to begin debate on what should be the aims of our republic over the next five years.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: The reign of Quintus as First Consul has ended.
Senators wishing to stand for election as First Consul should do so by presenting manifestoes here.
Senators wishing to propose motions should do so now. All motions must be seconded to be voted on, although this will doubtless not be a problem for influential Senators.
The deadline for nominations and motions is Thursday 6pm UK time, when voting will open.
Voting will close on Friday 6pm UK time.
Estemmed Senators, I am sorry I was not present for recent votes, though the Republic seems even in better shape now then when I left. I have 2 motions I would like to put up for the Senate's discussion:
Motion 1: That this house focuses on naval buildings in Tarentum and Syracuse
Motion 2: That this house raises a new legion to go north and begin attacking Gaul at Jenuensis OR Bononia.
These will provide funding and facilities for a navy and will give us a greater buffer zone to the north of Roma.
[QUINTUS]: Welcome, Senator Publius Panga - it is good to see you on the Senate floor after your sterling service as governor of Roma.
I wonder if I could request that you amend motion #1 slightly so as to exclude Roma? Documents posted in the Senate library by our surveyors indicate that Roma is unsuitable as a first class military harbour. Personally, I would much rather see the great city work towards a forge, so that our troops may have the best armour and equipment. Few other cities will ever grow large enough to support such industry. After that, I believe the size of Roma will make it an excellent centre for commerce. By contrast, Tarentum and Syracuse have the potential to produce the finest warships. And indeed, the Greeks have left us much of the necessary infrastructure at Syracuse.
I am in complete agreement with the rest of your motions.
Of course ex-Consul Quintus, I have ammended it accordingly. Roma is needed for other buildings for now.
Ha. You Senators talking on and on about this and that. Arguing about this and that. Who to be afraid of next.
If I am ever in doubt as to the state of the empire I merely have to take walk to my food pantry to find that the Empire is doing very well for itself. And so am I. Indeed I have food brought to my table from every corner of the world. While Im sampling the finest wine from my personal vineyards you senators sit about bickering and arguing and passing your silly motions. I chuckle at you all.
These are my motions, noble senators.
MOTION #3: This house proposes that the new consul makes peace with Carthage, with the option of taking Melite before they do so.
MOTION #4: This house proposes that no offensives or conquests be made in the next 5 years, the only exception being if we are attacked.
MOTION #5: This house proposes that the new consul focus on the economy and prosperity, rather than army.
MOTION #6: This house proposes that Senator Quintus be appointed governor of the province of Sicily, with his provincal capital at Messana.
Manifesto of Augustus Verginus, Candidate for Consulship
Conscript Fathers, Rome is triumphant!
Under the military brilliance of Senator Quintus and the watchful eyes of this august body, the Republic has entered a new age of power and prosperity. Five years ago, Rome could count on only the support of two of her Italian neighbors. Now, such a short time later, five more Italian provinces have sworn alliances with our citizens. Moreover, the Greeks have been expelled from the peninsula and their cities taken. Incredible successes have even taken the entire island of Sicily under our guidance. In all, Rome now controls nearly five times the territory that it did five years ago. Glory and triumph!
Yet, despite these successes, our future remains uncertain. We have but three Legions in arms, two combined into a Consular army in Agrigento and the third guarding our northern border with Gaul. While these brave men have helped secure our new territories, they will need the strength of further comrades if they are to keep all Romans safe from enemies, north or south. In addition, our infrastructure is primitive at best. We lack roads in nearly every province, our naval buildings are minimal, and few of our new territories have even begun the work required to make them suitable for recruiting auxilia. No plans for the conversion of any of the Sicilian provinces or any of the Greek cities has yet been layed.
Despite all of this, some Senators yet push for war with Gaul. I ask you, brothers, war for what end? War with what armies? We have achieved much, yet we have much still to achieve. We must secure our new acquisitions, ensure that their men are organized so as to provide auxiliaries for our Legions, improve provincial infrastructure and economics, and raise further Legions to secure our borders and to prepare for future conquests.
Now, I know some Senators will undoubtedly say we can do both at once. Perhaps we can, but perhaps we will make ourselves vulnerable. Is five years such a long time to wait? Much can be accomplished in such a time frame. The Republic is eternal, is there really such urgency that our vengence upon the Gauls cannot wait but a few years? Certainly, I do not advocate passivism. If we are attacked, we should certainly defend ourselves vigorously, both offensively and defensively. I say too that military opporunities should not be passed up, if they become available. Peace should be sought with Greece and Carthage, but diplomacy is a fickle beast and such a ceasefire may prove elusive. In such an event, options may become available to make expeditions to the Carthaginian island cities of Melite, Caralis, and Aleria. These are mere extensions of our existing conflict with the Punic nation. Let us concentrate any further advances in their direction if peace cannot be secured. Let us strengthen the Republic, secure our hold on the seas, and build our armies. Let us prepare for the Gauls; we shall deal with them soon enough.
I swear before Jupiter that I shall endeavor to achieve all of this and more if elected Consul. A vote for Verginus is a vote for prosperity!
Hear, hear, Senator Verginus speaks sensibly, we must consolidate our gains. Rome can wait five years for further conquest, but it cannot wait for loyalty in the provinces.
However, I disagree about taking Caralis and Aleria. Carthage has lost Sicily. That is enough. Besides, how would we supply these islands? Rome must stick to land warfare whereever possible, and leave the waters to Carthage.
Those rash enough to advocate war with Gaul seek neither honour or gain for the Republic. They only seek to gain glory and honour for themselves, and would sacrifice the good of the Roman Republic for their own greedy needs, rather than seek the good of Rome.
And in summing up, I present further motions.
MOTION #7: This house moves that Legio I and Legio II move to forts on the border between Gaul and Rome in Northern Italy.
MOTION #8: This house moves that Legio III moves to a fort in southern Italia.
MOTION #9: This house moves that Legio IV moves to a fort in central Sicilia.
MOTION #10: This house moves that the Senate votes on the names the legions. (I.e. Legio I Victrix or Legio III Italia.)
I must express my disagreement, Senator Antio. Melite, at the very least, should be secured for the Republic. It is but a few miles offshore from Syracuse, and therefore in the perfect position for the Phoenicans to build up an army and launch a counter-attack on Sicily. We should deny them any chance to go on the offense against us, and we should at the very least blockade the island, so that even if they do build an army against us, it will prove impossible to actually attack us.
However, I do agree with my colleagues in that Rome simply must consolidate her position. Why, even Senator Laevinius the warmonger has taken to sitting idly in his villa sampling wine! Surely this shows that Rome is in no danger, otherwise he would be present here proposing motions of aggression and expansion. The Gauls are a threat, but I believe that an army of the Praetorian size will be able to guard us from danger, especially under Senator Lucius Aemilius, who has proved his military expertise in a tactical game in Roma's finest academy.
And so, senators, I urge you all to vote aye for Motions I, III, IV, V and VI.
Long live the republic!
Senators, I have amended Motion #3. It now reads:
MOTION #3: This house proposes that the new consul makes peace with Carthage, with the option of taking Melite before they do so.
And one so carefree and lazy as Publius Laevinus should never be consul. He loads himself with fine clothes and his tables with precious plates; a lowly senator can seldom gain admittance.
Gentlemen of the Senate, I must first apologise for my absence from our recent proceedings *cough*, my continued illness has now been diagnosed as “Irregular Connectivitus”. Unfortunately there is no permanent cure for this aliment and it is possible that I shall suffer from bouts of this illness throughout my life.
However, today I stand before you and obviously must add my consul to our most recent matters.
Consul Quintus has handed us the conquest of Sicily, it is true that it was not a course of action I held too but the die is cast and we must now look forward once again. Soon we will be voting for a new Consul. Quintus has previously given his intent not to stand for re-election and whilst we have not always seen “eye-to-eye” I am saddened by his choice for whilst the direction he took the Republic militarily was not completely to my agreement, we and I could not fault his skills in management or on the field of battle.
The Consul has advised us in his full report that the Praetorian army in Sicily is currently very under strength and I strongly believe that IF we wish to keep that which our Roman lives have paid for, we must strengthen that army as fast as is possible. The threat of invasion from Carthage is too strong to ignore and I urge use to consider that, instead of funding the raising of a forth Legion we should use a lower sum to supplement our army in Sicily. *cough*
We must address the issue of income as a priority also. Whilst my heart tells me that we should be making war on the Gauls and taking the rich regions to our North, my head tells me that we cannot hope to finance such an expedition at this time.
Currently Legate Tiberius Coruncanius and his Legio II are stationed on our Northern border and whilst I believe that the Legate’s Legion would be more than capable of taking the three settlements to the North, we cannot provide him with the raw manpower that would enable him to retain those settlements, nor do we have sufficient governors of experience to govern these unruly townships.
So, whilst I am a warrior at heart I must conclude that now we have settled the Greek issue in our lands, and provided ourselves with a buffer between us and Carthage in Sicily, our efforts in this next term must be concentrated in Trade and infostructure. The next Consul must ensure the three armies we have are strengthened and that our treasury swells.
Both these measures are to be done before we look North or even across the sea’s for further expansion. That does not preclude expansion within the next tenure for I am sure that such measures can be put in place in the early part of the next Consuls tenure of office.
I draw the Senates attention to the Island of Sardinia to the West. I understand that it has great potential for income being centrally placed. Unfortunately, I do not know if any of our neighbours lay claim to that island state.
I fear that further conflict with Carthage is unavoidable, but that we are not in a position fiscally or militarily to take pre-emptive action in this direction at this immediate point.
I believe that any of these further ventures will require us to raise a more substantial navy than we currently have and it is with these views that I will vote or offer further motions to table.
First we must raise the income of the Republic.
Then we must raise a navy capable of sustaining a campaign further from our homeland and able to protect that which we have already captured.
Only after these have been achieved can we consider further offensive action.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Honorable Senators, the scribes have pointed out the difficulty of allowing votes on more than 15 motions. Consequently, I ask you noble Senators to try to limit the number of motions accordingly.
To this end, I have consolidated several of Senator Sextius's motions, as some did seem to have a common theme.
COMPOSITE MOTION #3:
This house proposes that:
(a) the new consul makes peace with Carthage, with the option of taking Melite before they do so.
(b) no offensives or conquests be made in the next 5 years, the only exception being if we are attacked.
(c)This house proposes that the new consul focus on the economy and prosperity, rather than army.
COMPOSITE MOTION #5:
This house proposes that:
(a) Legio I move to a fort on the border between Gaul and Rome in Northern Italy, as Legio II currently is stationed.
(b) the Consular army at Agrigento be divided, half moving to a fort in southern Italia and half to a fort in central Sicilia.
(c) the Senate votes on the names the legions. (I.e. Legio I Victrix or Legio III Italia.)
I am also taking the liberty of ammending motion #4, as Syracuse - as a large city - is the capital of Sicily. Messana, unfortunately, is merely a large town and underdeveloped by contrast.
REVISED MOTION #4: This house proposes that Senator Quintus be appointed governor of the province of Sicily, with his provincal capital at Syracuse.
Further, on a point of information, Senators are reminded that we have three enumerated military formations (OOC: stacks with formation ancillaries):
(1) the First Consular Army at Agrigento - this has the strength of two legions and two alae
(2) Legio I - this has the strength of one legion and one alae, although it is currently divided between Paestum and Rhegium.
(3) Legion II - this has the strength of one legion and one alae, and is stationed in a fort north of Arretium on the border with Gaul
Full details of how the enumeration of these military formations occurs is set out in the notes by Marcus Camillus in the Senate library. So essentially, we have four field legions although two are consolidated into a Consular army.