Medieval Total Realism: Age of Ambition

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Tradable goods in Asia minor

Spices: saffron, cumin, ginger, cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, mace, pepper, salt, and sugar.
Drugs: opium, balm of mithridate, arsenic, benjamin (the balsamic resin, benzion), mirobolani (an astringent plum-like fruit), and perfumes.
Textiles: silk (green, blue, red), crimson damask, crimson velvet, camlets, cotton, linens, carpets.
Foods: wheat, barley, millet, raisins, olive oil, oranges, lemons, rhubarb, wines (malmsey, madeira).
Dyes: Cochineal (red), indigo (blue).
Luxuries: gold dust, slaves, copper, quicksilver, coral, Chinese porcelain, Lemnian earth, precious stones, pearls, frankincense, sandalwood, alum, gum arabic, glass trinkets, mirrors, wallpaper, furs.

I was unable to find a precise division of these goods into the provinces. These are Ottoman tradable goods in Asia Minor, but the source does not deal with more precise assesment.

- Agriculture-wise the most fertile region under Ottoman rule was the Anatolia and the valley between Euphrates and Tigris. Rum, Nicaea, Anatolia and Lesser Armenia are high income provinces in general.

- All of the Asia Minor provinces have high risk of earthquake.

- Trebizond, Edessa and Nicaea are floodable areas.

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Lol, I hope some of those trade goods were existing when Byzantium had Anatolia :2thumbsup:

Wraithdt and I selected the Turks as a effort for concepts. :D

Hey guys, I'm going to release a new update of the research template soon.

PM ur email addresses

OFFICIAL MTR ANNOUNCEMENT!!

THE 2006 MISS MEDIEVAL CONTEST!!

Just like Miss Universe, we have the medieval version!!

All contestants from:
1) Christen-dom
2) Dar-al-Islam
3) Pagan-dom

will compete for the prestigious title of "Miss Medieval"

Our concept artists/skinners/modellers/anyone in the MTR is asked to submit a contestant for the Miss Medieval Contest.

Requirements:
1) A rendered picture (no photographs back then :D) of the contestant, no nudity!! Thats sinfully punishable by death!!...except maybe if ur from Pagan-dom but its still punishable by death. Make it modest and make it medieval :2thumbsup: Send as many entries as possible.

2) A personality profile including the following biodata -
Age:
Height:
Weight:
Piety level out of 10:
Likes:
Dislikes:

3) Provide answers to the following questions:
a) If I was Miss Medieval I would like to use my influence to:
b) If there was one thing I wish for in the world it would be:
c) If I was to be a queen of a state, it would be:
d) If I was a man, the kind of soldier I'd be would be a:

First of all, you guys are Gods!

i think this project, has a load of potential, and with the new possibilites of M2TW, and the talend of the MTR, the mod can be something Big and Bad.

But first of all some comments of mine.

You guys should increase the number of provinces in England and perhaps France. If M2TW is still going to rely on 1 city/castle per province, than this is something you should reconsider.

Why is "Rus" a united Empire? I'm not too familiar with Russian history, but wasn't there division since death of Yaroslav? I understand, that the Rurikids during this period, were prety close with each other but the unity implied is somewhat dangerous.

Saweet Idea kataphractoi! Ill try my best to bring a hottie from Al-Maghrib!

In response to SaberHRE: Well, yes, there was division, but the major events of this breaking happened just after 1066, and at the end of 1066, when Vseslav of Polotsk first attacked Novgorod, and then went on to strike at the heart, Kiev, and the surrounding principalities. With that, the Rus faction was also attacked by the Polovtsi to the south (better known as the Cumans I suppose).

You could see that it is difficult to make one faction out of the heirs of Yaroslav the Wise, but at this time, in 1066, it's still acceptable to make one Rus faction. But I see Polotsk already split from this. Iziaslav, the Grand Prince then, with his brothers still united against Vseslav, so you see there was still a bond. But they were beaten very badly by Vseslav, who even managed to conquer Kiev, but was then 'betrayed' and put in chains.

In the beginning of the 12th century, Vladimir Monomakh managed to stabilise everything to a certain level, but after that we have the Mongols coming, and you know what then happened. Only Novgorod, which by then had become a Republic governed by the Vetche, managed to avoid the greater damage done to the rest of ye old Rus.

By the way Sabre is a member of MTR:2thumbsup:
We've recieved many members that I keep forgetting out team registars!!
I happened to chat to another new member, he is a skinner/modeller.
We also have Madtao from TWC, another talented skinner/modeller.

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You guys should increase the number of provinces in England and perhaps France. If M2TW is still going to rely on 1 city/castle per province, than this is something you should reconsider.

Why is "Rus" a united Empire? I'm not too familiar with Russian history, but wasn't there division since death of Yaroslav? I understand, that the Rurikids during this period, were prety close with each other but the unity implied is somewhat dangerous

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We're working with a province limit of 199 like RTW. But I am always looking to add more provinces if possible.

Rus is not united in 1066, it only has the "facade" of appearing united. IN the game, the Rus is internally UNstable. A plyer will find that this facade of unity breaks down after a couple of turns. Remembber, this starts as an internal matter before it becomes a battle between the principality states!!

[IMG]https://img239.imageshack.us/img239/...moravidqd5.gif[/IMG]

Theirs the major cities of my sphere of reasearch, next Ill do maps of the nations and timeperiods.

So you are gonna split them? For I have found numerous sources, including the Primary Chronicle, that during the debacle with Vseslav, they were nog broken yet, and all the principalities were ruled of Iziaslav, Sviatoslav, Vsevolod (the three brothers) or their children.

But I gather you want to make it a bit more fun, and challenging for the player to truly unite and stabilise the region... I will confide in the thought that everything we know from the past, out of the sources we have, is not to be trusted 100%, so I'll concur.

Ive added another province for the Moors so that Sijilmassi has its own province, will release new map soon.

To Cadmus,
Rus will have all its territories as upon the death of Yaroslav but within a few years of playing from the year 1066, the player will find his Rus state shattered by internal rebellions. This is where we intend the "real" breakup of the Kievn Rus into smaller priincipalities.

So no, they won't be split :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

Are we talking about Branicevo - Pomoravlje? If so, yes I did mispell it :laugh4
I only noticed it after I saved it as a gif file. And also Beligrad, I spelt it as Beligread...bad!

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I will send you e-mail and write what is wrong spelled. Cumans control some wrong provinces, according to the new map (revision 3, I think). And location of Ragusa is again wrong.

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Originally Posted by Cadmus

And starting date is... 1066? Which is very good. There is strife amongst the heirs of the Rus

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According to Primary Chronicle (Повесть временных лет) in 1067 was war between Vseslav (son of Bryatchislavov) and three Yaroslavitch: Izyaslav, Svyatoslav and Vsevolod.

Holy Roman Empire

1066(Early)

Ruler: Henry IV

Henry IV is perhaps best known for his fight against Hilberand of Rome aka Gregory VII "The mad man of Canossa :P". It was worth however to understand who he really was. Born into the Salian(or sometimes known as Franconian) dynasty he was a product of his age, not concious of the changes occuring in his times. Like his father Henry IV tried to assume a strong imperial rule, for many of his subjects a tyrannical and absolute rule.
His policies of extending the royal domain and strengthening the royal rights in particular were disliked by the Saxon freemen. Germany at the time was no feudal state. It was based upon local traditions and the new factor: feudalism. The great dukes were sometimes considered leaders of tribal states, known as stem duchies. All of Henry's subjects being freemen, serfdom being at it's infancy evolved only till Conrad III.

In creating a MTR Henry IV character we might consider few things:

a good command: around 5
a good acumen: 5-6
a weak/shattered influence: 3
a small piety: 1-3

Important generals:

Anti-imperial camp:

Magnus Billung

Magnus from the mighty saxon Billung clan is the son of Ordulf, current duke of Saxony. Like most of his subjects he opposes Henry's abbortive policies and leads an rebellion with saxon insurgents known as the "Saxon revolt". A man of rather mediocre military knowledge me makes it up by having a lot of support from his subjects(so this could be represented by giving him a big army, which will revolt with him).

weak command: 1-2
average acumen: 3-4
good piety: 4-6
very low loyalty

Otto von Nordheim

Otto von Nordheim is a very interesting character, whose personalities is much weaved by legends. He is like Magnus a Saxon, coming from the influential Nordheim clan. Bestowed with the Duchy of Bavaria by the queen-mother Agnes, he enjoys a good reputation, which is shattered when he joins the rebellion with his fellow Saxons. He does not receive support from his stem Duchy, having relied most on his Saxon estates. As a leader he is well respected, for both courage and military prowess.

very good command: 5-6
appalling acumen: 1
average piety: 3-4
low loyalty

traits:
some sort of courage and military skill traits

Fine leader
Chivalrous(i bet there is going to be such a trait :D)

Rudolph von Rheinfelden

Perhaps the most senior leader of the anti-imperial camp. Duke of Swabia and imperial magister of Burgundy. Probably the most powerful man in the Empire. At first he is a supporter of Henry, sending his Swabians many times into Thuringia and Saxony, however when the investiture conflict takes places he shows his true face by abandoning Henry, and in consequence is chosen anti-King. He receives support from most of his lands and those of Imperial Burgundy(dynasties such as Longwy, Salm). He is a skilled and trusted leader(he died in bitter close-combat fight, after loosing most companions and his right arm!:dizzy2:)

Lesser magnates of Anti-imperial camp:
Hermann von Salm
Henry of Luxembourg
Egbert of Meissen
Hartwig von Magdeburg, bishop
Burchard von Halberstadt, bishop

Imperial Camp

Frederich von Hohenstaufen

A man of rather obscure or ambigious origin. He was a Swabian noble who remained loyal to Henry IV, and in recognition was rewarded with the Emperor's daughter's hand and the duchy of Swabia.

Henry of Ostmark, also known as Henry von Wettin
A man like Frederich of rather obscure origin when compared to great magnates of anti-imperial camp. He was the son of Dedo, and soon margrave of Lusatia and of Ostmark(Austria, which exchanged hands few times between Bohemians, Wettins and Babenbergs).

Wracislaw of Bohemia
Probably the most successful Bohemian King and most senior leader to imperial camp. Brave, wise, handsome he is the Roland of his age. His loyalty to the Emperor is absolute, though he was rather mildly rewarded for his services. More to that he was a pious and humble man. His relations were cooled down only when the Emperor broke the promises of Lusatia and Ostmark.

I will try to make a list of units soon

I'll start doing some real work on the military units when I get home (Will have what I need to do that then). I will also perhaps determine which cities/ports should be in each province, I'll order some more books while here so I can manage the rest as well.
Should I also perhaps do things for Syria? Just wondering because both the Ayyubids and the Mamluks controlled Syria (as well as Jazirah) and the Fatimids controlled parts of Syria...

I have an important question regarding gameplay.

We all rememer the squalor in RTW, but not all of us know how to do deal with it. I'm tired of slaughtering my cities every time they reach a big population, this is wrong. In Middle Ages, slaughter of a city was considered a great offence, and such offence was not quickly forgotten. Just take the Mongols who often slaughtered people. There was some sort of prayer of German peasants made in 13th century which made it well into mid 14th century "Lord save us from the wraths of the Tatars".

Further, "city" revolts or in general revolts took place rather rarely. In a city of 10000, if 7000 people are homeless beggars nobody cared, and nobody revolted. Two reasons, it was a rule, and reason two they did not have weapos because there beggars.

My point being in general is that, we should seriously limit the influence of squalor on "rebel mood"(if CA still leaves the squalor system just like it is in RTW).

Thanks Kataphractoi, I was going to suggest that Sijilimasa get its own province.

All hail the first contestant to Miss Medieval!

https://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5923/misscz9.jpg
- If I was Miss Medieval I would like to use my influence to: Get a very rich (and very old) husband, with lots of power and no male heirs whatsoever.
- If there was one thing I wish for in the world it would be: One of those nifty Pope hats – they look very stylish.
- If I was to be a queen of a state, it would be: A state of chaos
- If I was a man, the kind of soldier I'd be would be: the kind of soldier that would do everything and anything for Miss Medieval, willing to lay down his life for her at a moments notice and give her any spoils of war he may come across. In essence, be a role model which all the other soldiers could follow.

@ SabreHRE

Don't post research information on factions here, but keep it in a research template like this.

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...chTemplate.doc

:2thumbsup:

It saves us a lot of space here for discussion.

@DukeofSerbia
I think Cadmus was earlier expressing how he was glad that the date was 1066 and not after because of the conflict in 1067.

And yes, i did notice the wrong location of Ragusa. :2thumbsup:

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I'll start doing some real work on the military units when I get home (Will have what I need to do that then). I will also perhaps determine which cities/ports should be in each province, I'll order some more books while here so I can manage the rest as well.
Should I also perhaps do things for Syria? Just wondering because both the Ayyubids and the Mamluks controlled Syria (as well as Jazirah) and the Fatimids controlled parts of Syria...

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That should be fine, Cebei's information on Anatolia overlaps with mine, but thats fine.

@Publius, definitely suitable for heretic burning if not a sacrificial pyre :laugh4:

HASHASHIN!!! :2thumbsup:

https://img75.imageshack.us/img75/65...osmlyy2.th.jpg

Hi one and all, I have another announcement.

Wraithdt, he of the Gothic MAA and Hashashin fame has volunteered to do the loading screens for MTR:AOA, he has asked me to compile a list of possible loading screen depictions. I urged MTR members and other org members to suggest their own top 5 loading screen subjects.

Eg. Top 5 selections:
1) Battle of Manzikert
2) Saladin on horseback in the sunset
3) A scene from the 100 years war
4) Genghis Khan on horseback
5) The Hagia Sophia

Remember, not all suggestions listed will be depicted...so to make sure your suggestion has a good chance of being depicted, provide interesting descriptions.

I will compile all suggestions into a document and send it to Wraithdt for him to peruse at leisure.

1) French knights trudging through mud (and of course dying) at Agincourt
2) Good shot of the artillery at work (impact on walls might be good)
3) Scene from the inquisition (not sure how you would do it, but perhaps dungeon with instruments of torture on walls, and then some shadows projected onto the walls of people?)
4) Heretics burnt at the stake
5) Pope sitting in the Vatican (probably doing something, say ordering a war or blessing kneeling knights or something)

1) janissaries storming the walls of const.
2) the mongol cav charging polish cav at the battle of liegnitz with henryk pobozny's head on a pike.
3) a shot of alp-arslan accompanied by possibly 2 generals standing on a lage hill overlooking the marching byz. army (thisd would count as manzikert)
4) battle of grunwald (tannenberg)
5) teutonic knights "converting" prussians

1) Crusaders breaking into Jerusalem (going berserk)
2) A picture of the siege engines bombarding the walls of Acre in 1291 (I think the Mamluks built over 80 counter-weight mangonels for that battle, some of them being the largest ever built, as well as a large number of smaller engines for providing covering fire
3) A picture from the Alibegensian Crusade, preferably depicting the papal legate (don't remember his name) telling that knight (don't remember his name :P) "Kill them all, God will know his own"
4) Muslim clerics attempting to convert Templars after the battle of Hattin (those who did not convert were immediately executed)
5) The last grandmaster of the Templars burnt at the stake

I know the title is Total War, but as 'passive' loading screens:

- A screenshot of a merchant cart riding up to a gate (you remember that shot in Kingdom of Heaven, when Balian arrived at Jerusalem, with the city bristling with people.

- A screenshot of one of the Almohad? castles overlooking a plain with tents of the christians (some sort of 'plain'watch...), this on the Iberian Peninsula.

- Though they are again not in, a screenshot of a fleet of vessels, like the ones they used in the Age of Exploring, so with a Spanish flag preferable.

- A screenshot of a view over a city (that is being besieged) wall, looking over the encampment of the enemy, with the trebuchets, the palisades, the numerous tents. When this is happening can be chosen, either before the battle (with everyone is preparing, all in formation, having the leader ride in front of them), during the battle (well, here I don't have to draw you a sketch), or after (when they are carrying away the dead and trying to heal the wounded, while also fixing the machinery and preparing for the nexy assault).

1) Charge of Emperor Constantine during seige of Constantinople.
2) Bannockburn :viking:
3) Genghis Khan on horse
4) Saladin sparing some crusaders
5) Third Crusade Arrival with two rivals Lionheart and Auguste

Ah just one I thought of: Someone being knighted!

Much as I like the idea of Chingis Khan on horseback as a loading screen, I doubt any Mongol on horseback would appeal to many. IMO the choice should come from a battle scene or similar

..........Orda

Whoah......so many ideas, so little time. Excuse me while I go clone myself.


Seriously, why did I ever agree to do this?:sweatdrop:

~;)

well you dont have to all of them
but itd be nice if every faction was represent...

Most factions should be represented. Therefore I present a list of different concepts per faction!

Also, battle pictures we can lift out of the engine, scenes we cannot.

Scottish:
Robert the Bruce attacking Robert de Comyn before the high altar of the Greyfriars Monastery. Or Bruce being crowned king by Isabellla MacDuff at Scone (no stone, though). A battle would have to be Bannockburn

England (Normans): Richard I besieging a castle (his favorite activity) or John signing the Magna Carta. Battle would have to be Agincourt (best known and all).

Danes: A large fleet of longships entering York in 1069. Or Margaret I being elected "Sovereign Lady and Ruler" by the swedish nobility. Battle would almost certainly have to be Lyndanisse, complete with mythological flag falling from the skies.

Duchy of Southern Italy: Robert Guiscard and his Normans landing at night in Messina. Or Roger II being crowned in Palermo. Battle would have to be Dyrrachium.

Papal States: The pope in his pope hat. More spesifically, Gregory VII and Emperor Henry IV outside the walls of Canossa. No battle, this event is so symbolically laden (although politically, it could be considered a loss) that it is a natural screen for the papacy.

HRE: The Concordat of Worms: Calixtus II and Henry V trying to bury the Investiture Conflict with a treaty. Or a Reichtag (anyone, really) in session, electing an emperor. Battle: Monte Porzio.

Poland: Władysław I doing something impressive, like opening the Academia Cracoviensis or overseeing th construction of a castle. Or some sort of germanization image; settlers building townships, perhaps. Battle; Tannenberg, what else.

Rus: A veche council assembling in a russian city. Or Vladimir Monomach entering Kiev in 1113 to the greeting of a jubilant populace. Battle: The Kievan/Chernigovian army defeating Quipchak/Polovtsii/Cumans.

France: A great gothic cathedral, such as the Notre-Dame de Paris. Jeanne d'Arc rallying the troops, or Charles VII entering Reims for his coronation. Battle: Bouvines or Patay.


Crown of Aragon: Peter III landing at Trapani with his army or Almogàvere mercenaries gathering for a naval campaign, with the aragonese fleet off the coast. Battle: The fall of Valencia.

Leon-Castile: Alfonose VI taking possesion of Toledo in 1085. Castilian noble gathering tribute from a muslim taifa king. Battle: Las Navas des Tolosa, of course.


Moorish Sultanate: Almoravid Yusuf ibn Tashfin founding Marrakesh, or Ibn Tumart preaching in north Africa. Battle: Alarcos.

Egyptian Sultanate: The Fatimid caliph in his throne room, "guarded" by his turkish bodyguard minders. Saladin in hero-positure. Battle: Hattin

Turkish Sultanate: Nizam al-Mulk establishing the Nizamiyyah academy, or Mehmed II entering Constantinople. Battle: Manzikert, or a scene from the siege of Constantinople.

Romaion (Byzantines): The Land Walls of Constantinople or (any) Emperor at the Hippodrome. Battle: one of the Komnenoi restoration - Levounion or Myriocephalum would be coolest.

Serbs: Sava being made archbishop of autonomous Serbia in 1219. Or Tzar Stefan Dusan presenting his Code. Battle: Kosovo Polje. A defeat, but one so integrated into the serbian national character that it almost has to be there.


Venice: The Arsenale building war galleys, or a regatta in the canals of Venice. Battle: The fall of Constantinople, with the venetians breaking into the city from the sea-side.

Hungary: Andrew II issuing the Golden Bull of 1222. Louis I modernizing Hungary (building the university of Pest or something like that). Battle: Marchfeld or Hodmezo

Mongols: The Golden Tent at Sarai, or Baghdad being sacked. Battle: Köse Dag or Mohi

Georgia-Sakartvelo: David IV entering Tblisi, or the fortress of Khertvisi. Battle: Shamkor

Cumans/Qipchaqs: A group of Qiuipchaq noblemen listening to a hungarian priest preaching, the priest carrying a copy of the Codex Cumanicus. Or a Quipchaq army of steppe horsemen traversing an open plain. Battle: Stugna River

:laugh4: New updated Research Template :2thumbsup:
http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...chTemplate.doc

Attention:

FAENARIS
SABREHRE
CUTEPUPPY

You guys identified HRE as the faction you'd like to research, well, that makes you guys a team! :2thumbsup: Be sure to co-operate on the template and share the load :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: PM each other or something.

Wraithdt, not to dampen your spirit even more, but on the twcenter forum they also asked for suggestions for these backgrounds.. :juggle2:

Why the name Age of Ambition? How is this age any more Ambitious than any other age? :inquisitive:

Regardless the campaign map setup looks good, and no Amurica, excellent. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

Serbs: Sava being made archbishop of autonomous Serbia in 1219.

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Autonomous Serbia?!:dizzy2: You mean autocephalous Sebian Orthodox Church under name "Archbishopry of Žiča".

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

Or Tzar Stefan Dusan presenting his Code.

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Better is the coronation of Stefan Dušan became Emperor of Serbs and Romans.

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

Battle: Kosovo Polje. A defeat, but one so integrated into the serbian national character that it almost has to be there.

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Defeat? No, it wasn't. The most Serbian historians believe in that,:wall: but facts said something else. The problem is that Ottomans ruled so long over Serbs that they introduced their version of battle where they are clear winner.

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

:laugh4: New updated Research Template :2thumbsup:
http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...chTemplate.doc

Attention:

FAENARIS
SABREHRE
CUTEPUPPY

You guys identified HRE as the faction you'd like to research, well, that makes you guys a team! :2thumbsup: Be sure to co-operate on the template and share the load :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: PM each other or something.

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No worries, i'm currently discussing provinces with Cutepuppy, and we're deciding on what parts each of us are going to concentrate.

Is Faenaris registered?

Hiya all. :)

Yes, I'm registered, but I think there is a small misunderstanding. I can do some research for the Teutonic Order, England and the Crusades. I have almost no info about the HRE. :s

Still, if you guys really want me to help out, I'll go to the bookstore when I have some time and see what I can find regarding the HRE.

Also, as I have said to Kataphraktoi, I'm currently not available for heavy duty research (I got exams), but I am back in action around middle of September.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Autonomous Serbia?!:dizzy2: You mean autocephalous Sebian Orthodox Church under name "Archbishopry of Žiča".

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Serbia as an autonomous wing of the orthodox church, yes.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Better is the coronation of Stefan Dušan became Emperor of Serbs and Romans.

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Trying to cut back on the coronations. Practically every nation has a famous one in their history.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Defeat? No, it wasn't. The most Serbian historians believe in that,:wall: but facts said something else. The problem is that Ottomans ruled so long over Serbs that they introduced their version of battle where they are clear winner.

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Er. That's a new one. Not only do most Serbian historians believe that, but most other historians do as well. What exactly do you mean?

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Why the name Age of Ambition? How is this age any more Ambitious than any other age?

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Because the medieval period lays the foundation for much of what's happening in the modern era. Plus the individuals in this period were more influential than in the dark ages were they not? Through their ambition, they created history.

Saladin and his wars against the Crusades.
The Battle of Hastings which changed England more than any other period prior to it - thanks to Willaim the COnqueror.
The Battle of Manzikert paving the way for the Ottomans
The Church Schism and the sack of Constantinople leading to the fractured relations in Church we had today because of ambitious Church leaders.
The worldwide ambition of Genghis Khan which unleashed on the most cataclysmic periods in history.
Same with Timurlane.
etc, etc, etc....

So really, Age of Ambition is a cumulative aggregate of the activity in this period and the individuals who shaped it.

Moreover, considering our campaign map...players with ambition can write their own history.

Ah well, I have a question about the campaign map. I know you want to include as many provinces as possible, but what concerns the Rus, there's even a province that I should divide amongst its neighbours. This is the Principality (or Duchy) of Nizhny-Novgorod, of which the boundaries didn't come into effect until say 1096, so about 30 years past our starting date. But if you want to include it...
And other provinces just had different names, so no sweat there.

Btw, is there anything you'll be needing already from the template?

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Ah well, I have a question about the campaign map. I know you want to include as many provinces as possible, but what concerns the Rus, there's even a province that I should divide amongst its neighbours. This is the Principality (or Duchy) of Nizhny-Novgorod, of which the boundaries didn't come into effect until say 1096, so about 30 years past our starting date. But if you want to include it...
And other provinces just had different names, so no sweat there.

Btw, is there anything you'll be needing already from the template?

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Ah, I'm glad someone commented on the Rus provinces.

I'm no expert on Rus history, so I based my borders on what could happen in the future concerning these borders which I lifted out from Rus history books in the time when Rus had already broken up and I used the borders.

However, I would not mind if u submitted changes to borders. Send me a map with the proposed changes :2thumbsup:

ANd with the names too. :2thumbsup:

Plus, no, I wont be needing anything from the templates. Has everyone got the new template?

Just a note, you can add anything which wasn't mentioned in the template.

Well, as the historian for these Rus barbarians, it's only logical that I intervene ay :book:
But how do I send you the map, doesn't work with PM (because I'm still junior member my guess)

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

Serbia as an autonomous wing of the orthodox church, yes.

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Do you know difference between autocephalous and autonomous Church?:dizzy2: Serbian Church then became autocephaluos, not autonomus.

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

Er. That's a new one. Not only do most Serbian historians believe that, but most other historians do as well. What exactly do you mean?

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Later about that.

Send me a PM about the Kosovo Polje thing, I don't think this thread should contain too much historical debate.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Do you know difference between autocephalous and autonomous Church?:dizzy2: Serbian Church then became autocephaluos, not autonomus.

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I believe the term means that the head archbishop does not report to any higher-ranking bishop and that the church is ruled by itself, still remaining in communion with the rest of orthodoxy but is self-governing? Is there a rank called autonomous? I was using autonomous as it is commonly used in the english language for organizations - self-governing, not subject to outside authority. My only good treatice on serbian medieval history is Durhams old 1989 book, so there might be some holes in my knowledge (as I suspect there is in your medieval scandinavian history :book: ).

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Well, as the historian for these Rus barbarians, it's only logical that I intervene ay
But how do I send you the map, doesn't work with PM (because I'm still junior member my guess)

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email me.

Fuzzwuzznuzz @ hot mail . com

And remember guys, there is 199 province we're working with.

We have 198 :laugh4: But I'm leaving the last one empty.

A rank called autonomous? If there was such a rank either you would be a heretic or a patriarch.;p

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A rank called autonomous? If there was such a rank either you would be a heretic or a patriarch.;p

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The Orthodox Christians were much more pragmatic, or should I say, the Byzantine Emperors. Basil II himself downgraded the Patriarchate of Ochrid to an Archbishopric and made it Autonomous from the Patriarch of Constantinople.

I guess it would be the Catholics who would go apopletic at the rank. :laugh4:

Hey guys, I was thinking about the two-option system for tech trees as mentioned by CA's developers of choosing either tech tree that emphasises military or revenue raising.

I think this is a great idea, but even greater when modding it!!

Here is an example of what I've been for the Byzantines concerning the two-option system and how it will be re-modded for the MTR:AOA. This is intended to get team members thinking of gameplay features.

Byzantine players will come across the Tagmatic and Thematic military systems which existed in the time period. Each system will be represented by the tech tree options. However instead of dividing between military potential and revenue potential, its more a matter of choosing which influence you want in a particular province. Do you wish for a Military influence or a Central Bureacratic influence. Its not a matter of getting better military units from one option, but a matter of what you WANT from that tech tree option.

Here's the rundown of how it works and what can be done. Lets call the tech tree option for those who favour Military influence the "Strategos" option and those that favour the Central Bureacracy influence the "CB" option.

The Strategos option widens a province's military potential; develops logistical capability; shapes religious character; influences economic structure predominantly agricultural and its access to military technology.

IN a nutshell:
Allows greater variety and choice of military units from elite to levies but limited choices for other types of units. Suited to strategic and economically weak provinces. This favours the aristocratic military families' prestige and power. Buildings to tend to lower order, loyalty and hence, keep an eye on as Emperor.

Types of units trainable/recruitable:
Provincial Tagmata
Thematic Soldiers
Provincial Monks
Provincial Ascetics

Types of buildings:
Estates - Military Aristocracy farming estates, rich farming holdings
Lord's Castle - Home of aristocratic military families, access to elite tagmatic soldiers
Military Office - holds registers of thematic soldiers, needed for thematic recruitment
Stables/Horse Farms
Barracks
Archery
Engineers - Artillery
Engineering - allows access to improved fortifications, emphasis on castles and forts
Military warehouse - used for storing army's supplies, reduces civilian happiness
Blacksmith/Foundary/Arms factory - where soldiers buy weapons and improved weapons, armour, etc, etc...also needed for armoured horses
Endowed Monasteries
Votive Shrines
Town Markets - small markets

The CB option deepens a province's bureacratic structure with emphasis on revenue extraction but in the process allows for wider options for public amenities and services; influences economic structure predominantly cash and trade based; ability to construct monuments and other structures that reflect imperial power and other structures which allow a deeply bureacratic character to take place.

In a nutshell:
Limited choice of military units but they are elite and professional soldiery. Good structure for revenue extraction and allows develop of a city's urban character through amenities, services, monuments and other civilian structures. This favours the Emperor's power and prestige. Tned to improve civic pride, improve wealth, sophistication and knowledge.

Types of units:
Imperial Tagmata
Foreign Mercenaries
Naval forces
Spies
Court Spies
Patriarchs
Archbishops
Bishops
Priests
Monks
Ascetics
Diplomats
Assasins
Vigiles - police forces, not the Tagmatic unit.

Types of buildings/structures:
University
Imperial Churches - various level of churches, determined by number of domes :laugh4:
Relic Shrines
Imperial Monasteries
Engineers - Artillery
Engineers - Fortification, emphasis on stronger, taller walls rather than castles
Military Naval facilities
Trade Merchant facilities
Forums - large markets, can be improved to larger market complexes
Monuments - Pillars, statues, religious devotional pieces like the Chalke
Baths/Hygience facilities
Senate House - only for Constantinople, improves order
Silk Factory - under strict government supervision, in specified areas only like Athens, Corinth, Thessalonica, Antioch and Constantinople and in other historical areas where possible.
Treasury - improves taxation ability
Intelligience Office - training for spies and intelligience gathering
Domestic Office - internal security of empire and its cities\
Taxation facilities - collects taxes on trade, goods in kind, etc, etc
Muslim Quarter - Small section for Muslim traders/merchants, includes a mosque but does not attract converts, reduces happiness, improves trade revenue
Latin Quarter - Medium to Large section for Latin traders/merchants/citizens, includes Latin churches, does not attract converts, reduces happiness, improves trade, does not attract converts, improvces trade and revenue, reduces happiness
Hippodrome
Jewish Quarter - Small quarter for Jewish traders/merchants/citizens

Note: Everything here are working ideas and not finalised. So for all researchers keep in mind ideas for gameplay, don't post all ideas on it here!! Maybe some ideas for discussions, but not a lot!! This is just an example.

hmm, interesting. I think that would work well for Al-Maghrib as well, seeing that in Cordova their were all sorts of quarters devoted to Christians and Jews and they had separate banks and places of worship.

Well, I was thinking exactly the same thing at work today, but with the Rus in mind.
Your bureaucratic institution would be my Veche, the more military associated rule would be the Prince, but more focused on being Tsar, a despot, the later form of absolute ruler.
My problem is, however, if you allow for every province to choose between one of these formulae, or that one of them is then a necessity for all provinces....

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My problem is, however, if you allow for every province to choose between one of these formulae, or that one of them is then a necessity for all provinces....

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Actually, the Byzantine system I devised is supposed to used as a combination, its not logical to choose one system for the whole empire, thats why I devised it as such that a player would actually utilise both systems depending on which province, and as I said before, this system is for the Byzantines which means you guys will have to come up wth tech trees unique to your own factions utilising the two-option system. It was great fun thinking it over. :2thumbsup:

Example:
With Constantinople in 1066, the CB structure is definitely in place there, but for Anatolian provinces, its more suited to the Strategos structure. THis reflects the tension between the military families and the bureacratic party in the capital. So the empire is a combination of both systems.

Hmmm, for the Rus, I think perhaps we do the following:

Using a generic lets call one structure the "Grand Prince" structure and the "Principality" structure.

GP structure emphasises the centrality and unity of Rus rule, by which many things would be standardised, while a "P" structure allows a player to localise many units and buildings.

Just a suggestion, but I'll leave it to you Cadmus to amaze us with ur ideas!!

Does anyone use IRC?

Signature
https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6688/mediorghz2.jpg

Also made a twc version (only difference being background color so it blends in). I posted that one, for obvious reasons, at twc

Hmmm... Would it be possible for me to do something like this but instead of having 2 systems (or whatever) the Fatimids would slowly along with their buildings transform their army into a more 'Turkish' style army (ie. Saladin's/the Ayyubids' army) instead of suddenly just replacing all the Fatimid units with Ayyubid units. If this is possible (building certain buildings in the tech tree replaces all units of a kind with another unit) then I think it could work well as the Fatimid military system was not just replaced over night it was disbanded over a number of years in preference of the more 'Turkish' Ayyubid army. The same could be done with the Ayyubids being taken over by the Mamluks.
I could also make use of the two system thing for the Fatimids though because from the mid to the late 11th century the level of skill demanded by their soldiers rised steadily, this led to the disbanding of most militas and made the Fatimids uncapable of recruiting a large force and had to rely on small well trained forces instead. You could have it so that in order to train the expensive elite units in a province you would no longer be able to train less effective but much less expensive troops in a province.

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- A screenshot of one of the Almohad? castles overlooking a plain with tents of the christians (some sort of 'plain'watch...), this on the Iberian Peninsula.

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Well, it's not an Almohad castle but one 'passive' loading screen you could have could be the Moorish castle at Guadalest, I was there yesterday, it was counted as impregnable until it was taken by some Spanish guy with a large army.

@ Randarkmaan: I know this mod is for Realism, but how far are you going to let this go, I mean, to give the player also some influence on how to develop his faction, what tranformations take place. Do you mean that it would replace the system over time, or could replace it, so to let the player choose what he wants transformed, as what the system Kataphraktoi said represents...


And about the intro, how are we going to handle that?
Are we going to:
- Write it as historian does his/her little speech, giving a summary of the whole or almost the entire history of his/her faction, including the future, but off course not far off (eg, continue on talking about his/her faction during the Renaissance...)
or
- Write it as being a part of history, like talking about your own people, about the past, from the tales from your parents etc. and thus not knowing what'll come, but show what courses can be pursued.

I ask this to everyone, because if some of us do the first and some others do the second (and maybe a third party finds yet some other way) it won't be that nice to present.

Kataphraktoi, you said about IRC, I don't have that, but can arrange it, and maybe we can discuss it there...

Edit: @ Randarkmaan, maybe you could make a sketch for wraithdt, or describe how the castle looks like. I can imagine the view from one of those castles is magnificent.

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Originally Posted by Cadmus

And about the intro, how are we going to handle that?

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I have to admit a preference for the little pep-talks you get when choosing your factions in Europa Barbarorum, such as this one for the Swebóz: https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_sweboz.html

Something like that is both fun to write and read.

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Well, it's not an Almohad castle but one 'passive' loading screen you could have could be the Moorish castle at Guadalest, I was there yesterday, it was counted as impregnable until it was taken by some Spanish guy with a large army.

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Awsome!!!! For loading screens, I would imagine the Al-Hamma (the red) with a sunrise in the backround (or sunset). Seeing as it is arguably the most beautiful piece of arcetecture the moors created.

Well, Guadalest is the most visited village in Spain, so it should not be hard to find pictures of the castle known as L'Alcazaiba or Sant Josep, sadly though I forgot to bring a camera...

here's some pictures I found on the web

http://refugioderosa.webcindario.com.../guadalest.jpg
Here's a view of the top the castle is located on, you can see some walls and a tower or two

http://www.lascatalinas.co.uk/editor...-Guadalest.jpg
Here's the view, amazing how clear that river is...

http://www.romanvirdi.com/spain2002/2_11025.jpg
The castle at the top of the mountain, I can see why they thought it impregnable...

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@ Randarkmaan: I know this mod is for Realism, but how far are you going to let this go, I mean, to give the player also some influence on how to develop his faction, what tranformations take place. Do you mean that it would replace the system over time, or could replace it, so to let the player choose what he wants transformed, as what the system Kataphraktoi said represents...

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Yeah maybe I should just do it so that the player does not have any control over it when it comes to implementing the new Ayyubid army. But the Fatimid units should not disappear all at once it should still be gradually, for an example having an event show up when the Armenian troops were disbanded after their pro-Fatimid uprising.
I have been wondering what is the best way to implement Saladin's takeover of Egypt? I mean earlier in the thread you talked about making the Egyptian characters heretics because the Fatimids were shias, yes it does make sense but how would you simulate Saladin changing the country's religion to Sunni Islam, would it be possible to change the religion of the characters? What I think would have been easier is if you just had Islam be one religion... and not represent the Fatimid Shias as Heretics.
Also it would be a little weird with Saladin's take over, since they did actually occupy Egypt, wouldn't it be a little weird having a message pop up and say that you have been occupied without even having seen an army?

EDIT: Had to put i another picture of the castle since it doesen't seem to work...

what about the good ole civil war pop up like in MTW1. You get an event, about Ayyubids with Saladin leading them. You can choose to join the rebels or stay and perish :D:laugh4:

OK guys i've been thinking. Our aim is to make Medieval 2 Totalwar as realistic as possible both visually and in game, without however limiting the gameplay. Thus assuming i must ask you, will we appease the crowds making lots of units( like in other RTW mods), or will we make a very generalized, but historically accurate list of units?

Like say, the Savoyards were pretty reknown for their infantry, namely the ragazzini. They were men-at-arms often fighting in slightly "lighter" armour(brigadine, coat-of-plates, and rarely single breastplates). So does that make them a special unit? Or we just give them a +1 valour when recruiting them.

I would go for the second option, because:
A) it will make the work on units easier, and will thus help us focus on possible gameplay limits caused by M2TW.
B) It brings in balance! So instead of having an already overpowered France or Ottoman Empire with 40 different units! We will have a nice balance with each nation having 2/3 special units.

Would do you think?

im more for different units for each faction.
altho this may take a bit longer i think the game will be more unique and the 2 upsides i see right away are a very unique feel to each faction, we are able to show the historical differences between the differences of warriors of all the countries in europe, and although small, they will be appreciated, and last we will be able to have stats of 2 swordsman units having one being better on the other depending on how famous that faction was for that type of warrior (this doesnt include uniqu units like say sipahi, etc)
for ex. german chivalric knights can be stronger than spanish ones because hgistoricaly they were more renouned and feared (im not saying they were, just an example)
that way germans can have slightly better 'generic' (even tho its only the same in name) infantry or say poland can have slightly stronger cavalry becuz it was historicaly famous for its cavalry dependance.

Well, I dont really agree on giving bonuses to units because they were more 'renowned' or more 'dependant' on a unit. If they were more renowned for good reason (better training, better armour etc) then of course they should get bonuses. But if its more of a cultural thing (a certain type of soldier having more status perhaps) or something even less concrete that wouldnt necessarily impact their actual abilities. Also, if a faction was more dependant on say cavalry, then I would advocate adjusting cost/upkeep values accordingly, as it would tend to lead to armies more heavily reliant on that type of unit.

I do agree that we want as much diversity as possible though. Base generic units are good, and are probably what we should focus on first. But I think a strong, identifiable roster of units for each faction greatly helps for immersion and gameplay.

thats wat i ment, training, not realy cultural benefits.

In that case, I agree with you :helloo:

With modifications that claim to represent historical accuracy there are two things to consider:

1) Historical accuracy as we know it is determined by what has happened already and hence the history as we know it which we try to represent accurately
2) But because games like MTW2 also allow the player to CHANGE history, history as we know it, might not have happened at all, so what we are doing then is assuming things still remain the same...

So its a very fine line we tread in balancing historical accuracy and historical plausibility.

In fact, by claiming historical accuracy, we also claim and assume certain things happened even if a player with his faction achieves things his faction did not historically achieve.

But our policy is to remain as close to what historically happened despite being able to change history, however, there are circumstances, where historically plausible, to allow a "departure" from history as know it. But that will be discussed a long way in the future.

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Well, I dont really agree on giving bonuses to units because they were more 'renowned' or more 'dependant' on a unit. If they were more renowned for good reason (better training, better armour etc) then of course they should get bonuses. But if its more of a cultural thing (a certain type of soldier having more status perhaps) or something even less concrete that wouldnt necessarily impact their actual abilities. Also, if a faction was more dependant on say cavalry, then I would advocate adjusting cost/upkeep values accordingly, as it would tend to lead to armies more heavily reliant on that type of unit.

I do agree that we want as much diversity as possible though. Base generic units are good, and are probably what we should focus on first. But I think a strong, identifiable roster of units for each faction greatly helps for immersion and gameplay.

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Combat ability will largely be determined by:

1) Regional considerations - does a particular region specialise in particular units HISTORICALLY
2) Training length - how does it take to recruit a unit
3) Armour - can also benefit from bonuses from blacksmiths, etc, etc
4) Discipline
5) Morale - can also benefit from buildings which increase morale of soldiers in the region (if possible in MTW2)
6) Weapons - same as armour
7) Experience - accumulated on battlefield

So any "famous" military units will have rely on these characteristics alone

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OK guys i've been thinking. Our aim is to make Medieval 2 Totalwar as realistic as possible both visually and in game, without however limiting the gameplay. Thus assuming i must ask you, will we appease the crowds making lots of units( like in other RTW mods), or will we make a very generalized, but historically accurate list of units?

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If we make lots of units, it will be not to appease the crowds but rather to give a diverse character and environment to the game. I have in mind the independent factions (ie rebels). Each independent faction will have a uniqueness about their army (within historical means of course). However, because a unit is "unique" it doesn't necessarily mean a military advantage. Its part of the "sight and sounds" of MTR:AOA.

And remember, some units get "upgraded" or "evolve" so to speak, so we must keep that in mind too. Although, that will be hard for nomadic factions and also for Byzantium...but thats another matter.

I agree that some factions should not have a large roster of "special" units. But I think once we finish our research, we can decide on how to limit the number of special units.

And even if a faction does have more access to "special" units, they'll think carefully before creating an army of elites because of cost. We have to make players carefully think about army composition and cost through our scripting.

Thats why I suggested a warehouse for the Byzantines as part of logistics. It increases ur extractive ability of revenue to support either a large army, or expensive soldiers, but it makes the population very unhappy...so one must consider that supporting and recruiting large numbers of elites will create a civilian effect too.

As for the intro:
The introduction is an introduction to the faction in the year 1066. No need to write a history from 1066 - 1453 (or 1492). The intro sets the scene for the faction, but it can also suggests what historically happens in the future, or what can be changed in the future too. Its ur choice how u want to present it, but as long as it presents the faction's situation in 1066.

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Hmmm... Would it be possible for me to do something like this but instead of having 2 systems (or whatever) the Fatimids would slowly along with their buildings transform their army into a more 'Turkish' style army (ie. Saladin's/the Ayyubids' army) instead of suddenly just replacing all the Fatimid units with Ayyubid units. If this is possible (building certain buildings in the tech tree replaces all units of a kind with another unit) then I think it could work well as the Fatimid military system was not just replaced over night it was disbanded over a number of years in preference of the more 'Turkish' Ayyubid army. The same could be done with the Ayyubids being taken over by the Mamluks.
I could also make use of the two system thing for the Fatimids though because from the mid to the late 11th century the level of skill demanded by their soldiers rised steadily, this led to the disbanding of most militas and made the Fatimids uncapable of recruiting a large force and had to rely on small well trained forces instead. You could have it so that in order to train the expensive elite units in a province you would no longer be able to train less effective but much less expensive troops in a province.

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I think that the 2 systems should be kept for all factions. But in terms of transitioning from Fatimids to Ayyubids to Mamelukes, I think it will require both a combination of buildings, religion and scripting. Lets say that the Fatimids are made heretics, that means they can recruit particular units...but once they convert to Sunni Islam, then they can have access to other particular units too. As for transitioning from the Ayyubids to the Mamelukes, its different from the Fats to the Ayyubs since the Mamelukes were Ayyubid soldiers in the first place. I suppose we could script a rebellion and from that point on allow the player access to more unique Mameluke units even if the rebellion of the Mamelukes were successful or not.

Phew, hope that clears everything.

And yes, everyone should get IRC.

If you do log on, make sure ur nick has MTR at the end of it to indicate team status.

Oh Yes, and here's my repeated plea to everyone, think of gameplay features, think of things u want to see, eg. wonders, if any...small things and big things!!! And we'll discuss it on IRC #rometotalrealism on quakenet

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

The Orthodox Christians were much more pragmatic, or should I say, the Byzantine Emperors. Basil II himself downgraded the Patriarchate of Ochrid to an Archbishopric and made it Autonomous from the Patriarch of Constantinople.

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Ochrid was always Archbishopry and never Patriarchat. Orthodox Serbs (Bishopry of Ras and Bishopry of Prizren were under Archbishop of Ochrid until 1219).


And do you need some good photographies about Middle East as I have over 4 000 pictures from last year when pilgrims were in Israel? Actually I have friend who was there in pilgrim (in organisation of Serbian Orhodox Church) and he photographed everything in Israel.

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

Send me a PM about the Kosovo Polje thing, I don't think this thread should contain too much historical debate.

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OK. Just to find link. And here is the link http://www.deremilitari.org/resource...les/emmert.htm

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

I believe the term means that the head archbishop does not report to any higher-ranking bishop and that the church is ruled by itself, still remaining in communion with the rest of orthodoxy but is self-governing? Is there a rank called autonomous?

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No. It is autocephalous church. It could be also Metropolitain and Patriarch as a head of Church.

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

I was using autonomous as it is commonly used in the english language for organizations - self-governing, not subject to outside authority. My only good treatice on serbian medieval history is Durhams old 1989 book, so there might be some holes in my knowledge

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Autocephaly and autonomy are different terms. I don't like wiki but they good explained.
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Autocephaly
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Autonomy

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

(as I suspect there is in your medieval scandinavian history :book: ).

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Explain this as I don't understand what you mean.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

No. It is autocephalous church. It could be also Metropolitain and Patriarch as a head of Church.
Autocephaly and autonomy are different terms. I don't like wiki but they good explained.

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Ok, that cleared things up (and nobody likes wikipedia). Well, in that case yes, I was referring to autocephaly.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

OK. Just to find link. And here is the link http://www.deremilitari.org/resource...les/emmert.htm

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Interesting article. It definitely muddles the waters as to what actually happened. I guess you'd still agree that the battle of Kosovo Polje has a rather central position in the serbian modern mind, no matter who won?

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Explain this as I don't understand what you mean.

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I was simply saying that I am not by any means an expert on serbian history, which is only natural since I specialized in northern european history. I guessed the same applied to you "the other way around". ~:)

Hi guys just a bit of housekeeping.

Any research data please reserve for the template and don't post it here. Not because of we're trying to hide anything, we're trying to streamline and keep things clean in this forum concerning information and content. :2thumbsup:

I hope everyone gets onto IRC for discussion, server is quakenet and its at #rometotalrealism

Make sure to add MTR on ur name to indicate team status

what about the good ole civil war pop up like in MTW1. You get an event, about Ayyubids with Saladin leading them. You can choose to join the rebels or stay and perish :D

Quote:

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OK guys i've been thinking. Our aim is to make Medieval 2 Totalwar as realistic as possible both visually and in game, without however limiting the gameplay. Thus assuming i must ask you, will we appease the crowds making lots of units( like in other RTW mods), or will we make a very generalized, but historically accurate list of units?

Like say, the Savoyards were pretty reknown for their infantry, namely the ragazzini. They were men-at-arms often fighting in slightly "lighter" armour(brigadine, coat-of-plates, and rarely single breastplates). So does that make them a special unit? Or we just give them a +1 valour when recruiting them.

I would go for the second option, because:
A) it will make the work on units easier, and will thus help us focus on possible gameplay limits caused by M2TW.
B) It brings in balance! So instead of having an already overpowered France or Ottoman Empire with 40 different units! We will have a nice balance with each nation having 2/3 special units.

Would do you think?

---

Diversity of units will be to make the game interesting and also to make independent factions interesting too (within historical limits) so that conquering rebels will be an interesting experience.

Quote:

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And about the intro, how are we going to handle that?
Are we going to:
- Write it as historian does his/her little speech, giving a summary of the whole or almost the entire history of his/her faction, including the future, but off course not far off (eg, continue on talking about his/her faction during the Renaissance...)
or
- Write it as being a part of history, like talking about your own people, about the past, from the tales from your parents etc. and thus not knowing what'll come, but show what courses can be pursued.

I ask this to everyone, because if some of us do the first and some others do the second (and maybe a third party finds yet some other way) it won't be that nice to present.

---

I give u guys creative license for that as long as it meets the minimum requirements:

1) As long as it addresses the faction's situation in 1066
2) As long as its interesting :2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Hmmm... Would it be possible for me to do something like this but instead of having 2 systems (or whatever) the Fatimids would slowly along with their buildings transform their army into a more 'Turkish' style army (ie. Saladin's/the Ayyubids' army) instead of suddenly just replacing all the Fatimid units with Ayyubid units. If this is possible (building certain buildings in the tech tree replaces all units of a kind with another unit) then I think it could work well as the Fatimid military system was not just replaced over night it was disbanded over a number of years in preference of the more 'Turkish' Ayyubid army. The same could be done with the Ayyubids being taken over by the Mamluks.
I could also make use of the two system thing for the Fatimids though because from the mid to the late 11th century the level of skill demanded by their soldiers rised steadily, this led to the disbanding of most militas and made the Fatimids uncapable of recruiting a large force and had to rely on small well trained forces instead. You could have it so that in order to train the expensive elite units in a province you would no longer be able to train less effective but much less expensive troops in a province.

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I'll discuss my ideas on IRC :2thumbsup:

Hope everyone is well...I'm hungry. Good nite.

@kataphraktoi

I have suprise for you in e-mail.:book:

I'm just wondering if someone could tell me how I use on of those IRCs, since I've never used one. Would be nice to know for when I get home...

It's not that difficult to use, at least the basics, with which I got off pretty quickly.
Just run the program, then you have to fill in your 'name" and 'e-mail', then your username (which Kataphraktoi specified as having MTR in it) and then as server (you'll see the tab) quakenet.
When it connects to the server, you will have to enter a channel, type #rometotalrealism, although they directed me through also to #medievaltotalrealism.
Hope it works, unless I forgot a step.

Btw, when is everyone online, because we all live in the different corners of the world, as is my impression, so..., when it's noon here, Kataphraktoi has already hit the sack, and in the US, they are just awaking....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

The CB option deepens a province's bureacratic structure with emphasis on revenue extraction but in the process allows for wider options for public amenities and services; influences economic structure predominantly cash and trade based; ability to construct monuments and other structures that reflect imperial power and other structures which allow a deeply bureacratic character to take place.

In a nutshell:
Limited choice of military units but they are elite and professional soldiery. Good structure for revenue extraction and allows develop of a city's urban character through amenities, services, monuments and other civilian structures. This favours the Emperor's power and prestige. Tned to improve civic pride, improve wealth, sophistication and knowledge.

Types of units:
Imperial Tagmata
Foreign Mercenaries
Naval forces
Spies
Court Spies
Patriarchs
Archbishops
Bishops
Priests
Monks
Ascetics
Diplomats
Assasins
Vigiles - police forces, not the Tagmatic unit.

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It can be only one Patriarch in Church. There is no plural. And he shouldn’t be recruit able agent as this has nothing with reality.

What you mean by “Ascetics”?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

What you mean by “Ascetics”?

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Probably some old felows singing behind the main lines providing morale boost.

Quote:

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It can be only one Patriarch in Church. There is no plural. And he shouldn’t be recruit able agent as this has nothing with reality.

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Lol, I used plural to indicate that you can train ur own Patriarchs for Constantinople, Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria. However, a player would need to play be house rules and not crazy training patriarchs for every province but limit themselves to training them when they conquer areas of the patriachal sees...plus I got ur email :2thumbsup:

By ascetics I mean hermits, stylites and other men who punished themselves through deprivation to prove their holiness.

I think the Muslims will have Pirs and Shaikhs or Sufis.....perhaps

I'll leave myself logged in as kataMTR I may or may not be actively online, but I'll be online nonetheless. Leave a message to on a separate window by clicking kataMTR and typing what u want. Actually, I hope everyone stays logged in at #medievaltotalrealism whether they chat or not just so its easier to send messages :2thumbsup:

and please for the love of Pope Shenouda!! include "MTR" aat the end of ur chosen nick.

So if ur Cadmus, then its CadmusMTR or watever..

Hey! just wanted to say that research is going well:book: I'm really enjoying it. Everyone: keep up the good work!

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Hey! just wanted to say that research is going well I'm really enjoying it. Everyone: keep up the good work!

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Ah.....sweet words indeed..."enjoy" :2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

So if ur Cadmus, then its CadmusMTR or watever..

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I believe that was a hint.... already changed.

Latest version of the template and final version....I hope

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...chTemplate.doc

Good luck y'all

Hi 2 all I have heard that wedieval 2 :total war is coming out soon so i searched it on google and i found this.i didnt have time to read all posts but i already read a large part of them.i think that what u guys do here is amaizing and i'd like to help u though i have some questions about this project.who is the project manager or smething like that?i'd lik to talk to him because im realy eager to join this project.

Hey guys, would just like to tell you that I'm home and that I've received a few books I ordered to help my research, will probably be working mostly in the weekends (School's started and I'm trying to take it seriosly this year), and be logged on to IRC then.
But what I really posted here for was the fact that in one of the books there is a picture showing medieval Muslim male clothing, which I thought I'd post here since it would be of interest to all the Muslim researchers... if you'd like to see the descriptions of the plates I can PM it to you...

https://img147.imageshack.us/img147/...hingaf6.th.jpg

There's also a plate showing both Arab and Turkish horse-harness... as well as one showing archery equipment, bow construction and draw and release techniques.

I was browsing through my old M:TW modding files and came across some work I made for a mod. Perhaps it is usefull for you, mostly 15th century though. (the greens and purples are because of M:TWs faction colouring)

Mercenary pikemen
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...ry_pikemen.gif
Burgundian man-at-arms
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...undian_maa.gif
English royal bodyguard
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...lish_royal.gif
French royal bodyguard
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...ench_royal.gif
Italian man-at-arms
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...ian_armour.gif
Swiss armoured pikeman
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...ed_pikemen.gif
Swiss halberdier
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...halberdier.gif
Voulgier
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...c_voulgier.gif
14th century English longbowman
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...wip_archer.gif

And a 360 degree unit preview :tongue2:
http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mt...e_voulgier.avi

Cheers,
DJ

man this game you are making is based on medieval 2 total war isnt it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Victor_cel_mare

Hi 2 all I have heard that wedieval 2 :total war is coming out soon so i searched it on google and i found this.i didnt have time to read all posts but i already read a large part of them.i think that what u guys do here is amaizing and i'd like to help u though i have some questions about this project.who is the project manager or smething like that?i'd lik to talk to him because im realy eager to join this project.

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Hello neighbour from Banat and Romania.:balloon2:

1. Read the first post as you will find everything what you need to know about this project.

2. Project leader is Achilles, but temporary project leader is kataphraktoi.

3. So, contact kataphraktoi.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Victor_cel_mare

man this game you are making is based on medieval 2 total war isnt it?

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Yes, that's right.:2thumbsup: