The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

I am not in favor of Constitutional Amendment 11.A, it seems fine as it is.

I am, on the other hand, in agreement concerning the other motions. Especially motion 11.8 - this seems very wise, especially seeing War with Iberia is only moments away.

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Motion 11.8 : We will not extend our borders in Europe during this consul's term, except for Maronia

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I however, do not quite understand why we should return Viberi to our allies. If a war might break out between our German ''Allies'' we'd have to re conquer the settlement and lose countless lives doing so. I just don't see what we have to gain by such an action.

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Motion 11.9 : We will try to return Viberi to our allies, the Germans, during this consul's term.

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:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

I however, do not quite understand why we should return Viberi to our allies.

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As long as the Germans are at war with Iberia, Iberia might not attack us. However, the Germans are losing and need to be strengthened to be able to continue this war.
Realizing I made an error, I am rephrasing
Motion 11.12 : We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans. We will not attack an Iberian-held town while we are not at war with them (Vicus Goth is held by Iberia).

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Originally Posted by Lucius Aemilius

Motion 11.12 : We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans.

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I do not understand the purpose of this motion with regards to Motion 11.08. Why are we trying to expend Roman Blood so as to give the land they bought with their bloods to our allies when we have more pressing agenda like the selucids and carthagians on our hand? I believe that as with Motion 11.08, we should be on the defensive, with the securing of the Danube natural border and stay there, only doing spoiling attacks at points where threats materialize, the Thracians are weaken as it is and we should not shed any more blood there unless there are specific gains or objectives to be achieved.

Giving lands to our allies is not one of them, aiding them in the defense of their homeland I can understand.

Edit: was posting this while DDW was posting the above reply.

So what does this mean for Motion 11.12 in the event of an attack by Germans on Vicus Goth? Do we go and aid our allies, aka. be near the area to be requested to join in the attack thus breaking the peace with the Iberians? Please clarify.

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Originally Posted by Lucius Aemilius

As long as the Germans are at war with Iberia, Iberia might not attack us. However, the Germans are losing and need to be strengthened to be able to continue this war.
Realizing I made an error, I am rephrasing
Motion 11.12 : We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans. We will not attack an Iberian-held town while we are not at war with them (Vicus Goth is held by Iberia).

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Well as noble as your intentions may be, I don't think that giving them a razed* city would actually help them hold out against the Iberian onslaught. So keeping that in mind, I do quite understand why the Germans may not wish the extra burden of an extra city. Of course the most noble thing to do is aid them in their war, but seeing our current state of diplomacy with the known world that may not be the best thing to do at the moment.

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I planned to give the town [Viberi] to our allies, the Germans, but they do not want it. Annoyed, I plunder everything except the market

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:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by StoneCold

So what does this mean for Motion 11.12 in the event of an attack by Germans on Vicus Goth? Do we go and aid our allies, aka. be near the area to be requested to join in the attack thus breaking the peace with the Iberians? Please clarify.

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Let me be very precise. A war with Iberia is no be avoided at all costs. So that's a definite no-no. I mean if Iberia loses Vicus Goth to rebels we could go and conquer it for them.

As to the razing of Viberi, I am really tired of the idiotic diplomacy AI. If the Germans don't want it the settlement can rebel. If we are unlucky by the way, and it rebels to the Germans, we'll be at war with them. As this is not a default German settlement I don't think that will happen.

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Motion #11.00:

The Senate authorises the seaborne invasion of North Afrika with at least two Consular sized armies.

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I believe Senate authorisation is not required for this operation - we are already at war with Carthage, the Consul may do as he pleases in this regard, unless the Senate specifically tells him otherwise.

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Motion #11.02:

The Senate authorises the positioning of a Legion or other assembled force to “face off” against the Iberian incursion – this is not authorisation to initiate hostile activity but to show Iberia how seriously we take such unwarranted actions and allow them the chance to withdraw with honour to their own lands.

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I believe there are already 2 legion sized forces in our Gallic provinces.


Regarding Viberi and the other Thracian provinces, I have this to say. It was agreed some time ago to use the Danube as a natural border - a wise and sound strategy. However, our enemy the Thracians remain unconquered and are unlikely to ever agree to a ceasefire. The only way we shall have peace on our northern border is by eliminating the Thracians altogether. This shall have 3 benefits, all positive.

1) It removes one of our many enemies, and frees us from fighting endless stacks of Thracians season after season. We may defeat them 95% of the time, but each battle will wear down our armies and we are not in a position to win a war of attrition.

2) Our northern border is now protected by an ALLY!! Oh praise the Gods and give thanks to consul Lucius Aemilius for negotiating an alliance with Germania. And having an ally bordering us is an enormous advantage for one simple reason - Trade!! We need every denarii we can get, and our merchants will be able to freely ply their wares with the Germans once we have eliminated Thrace.

3) It frees up our troops. Currently we have several legions worth of troops along the Danube, guarding against Thracian incursions. If it was Germania directly to our north (who I believe we have a military access agreement with), then we could leave the river crossings unguarded and leave just one legion there as a reserve. The legions released could then be sent east, west or south at the Consuls discretion.

Finally, your point about having to reconquer any cities we give to the Germans is misguided. I hope we never go to war with those fearsome barbarians, but maybe we will, if they are foolish enough to attack us at some time in the future. We must plan for the here and now. We need every piece of coin, every soldier, every ally we can right now. Our situation is desperate. Let us take advantage of our ally whilst we can. Furthermore, those towns are small and poorly developed. It will take decades before they are cities of any worth. Let us worry about having to retake cities we have gifted to Germania, if and when it comes to that.

With all this in mind I ask that Lucius Aemilius re-word & merge Motions 11.9 and 11.12 to read

Motion 11.9 - The Germanic legion under Quintus Libo shall conquer and enslave the remaining Thracian settlements of Viberi, Vicus Marcomannii, Campus Lazyges and Sarmisegetusa. These shall then be offered individually, or in a package to our allies the Germans. The consul is authorised to offer financial sweeteners to Germania to induce them to accept


Finally, I wish to second Motions 11.1, 11.5, 11.6, 11.7, 11.8, 11.10

OOC: can we discuss the difficulty levels in the OOC thread?

I second Motions 11.5 and 11.6. The others I will have to give more thought.

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Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi

Regarding Viberi and the other Thracian provinces, I have this to say. It was agreed some time ago to use the Danube as a natural border - a wise and sound strategy. However, our enemy the Thracians remain unconquered and are unlikely to ever agree to a ceasefire. The only way we shall have peace on our northern border is by eliminating the Thracians altogether.
[snip]
With all this in mind I ask that Lucius Aemilius re-word & merge Motions 11.9 and 11.12 to read
Motion 11.9 - The Germanic legion under Quintus Libo shall conquer and enslave the remaining Thracian settlements of Viberi, Vicus Marcomannii, Campus Lazyges and Sarmisegetusa. These shall then be offered individually, or in a package to our allies the Germans. The consul is authorised to offer financial sweeteners to Germania to induce them to accept

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These are all valid reasons, but I prefer to make Germania stronger in the direction of Iberia, instead of in our direction. I do not want to tempt our allies into attacking us. An alternative might be conquering Thrace for ourselves, but I rather have Thrace for a neighbour behind an easily defended border, than the Sarmatians, with their fearsome horse armies. Therefore I will not alter my motion. You are of course free to propose a motion yourself.

I second motions 11.0, 11.1, 11.2, 11.4. 11.5, 11.6, 11.9, 11.11, 11.12

In regards to motion 11.7, I do not think our treasury can afford citizenship buildings in those settlements at this time. I would like to grant them this gift, but for now it should be put on hold.

I second Ammendment 11.B

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Originally Posted by econ21

OOC: I am strongly against changing the difficulty level (Constitutional Ammendment 11A). I think it is important not to pass that motion, because it will then very easily switch the difficulty level from what it presently is (there are only a handful of lower house members and on the voting rules in the ammendment, if, say, 3 want it to X, it will be switched to X).

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Which is of course my intent. Furthermore, the only players with a good insight in how hard the battles and the opposition are now are the lower house senators.

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Originally Posted by econ21

There are several reasons why I don't want to change the difficulty level:

Firstly, it is not clear we can do it - RTW was not designed to have the difficulty level switched within a campaign and some of the posts in RTR PE forums at TWcentre report that the hack to do so messes up the dates. I've had enough of a fright with the rebellion CTDs and don't want to do anything that will mess up this now 100+ turn PBM.

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We should be able to do it easily using RomeSage. I am not aware of any relation between dates and difficulty or any problems. You were ready enough to 'force peace' on Carthage last term by changing the difficulty.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Secondly, it is shutting the door after the horse has bolted. We are already at war with virtually everyone. Adding Iberia or Germany to the list won't change much. And I am not convinced changing the campaign difficulty level will keep them significantly more peaceful than they are going to be, or magically induce the others to be our friends again.

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Won't change much ? 10.000 Iberians knocking on our front door ? I beg to differ. At least we can try to make peace with some of our neighbours. I think Thrace is ready to accept peace, especially if we destroy all her armies. The Ptolemaic empire is also ready for peace, and the trade benefits alone would be an extremely profitable benefit (better take Rhodes first of course). Ditto for the Seleucid empire, once we kick them back to Asia Minor.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Thirdly, I actually think Roman campaigns are a lot more fun when you are at war with everyone. It's a very strong faction and needs to be overstretched to be challenged. If we could just salami slice one faction at a time, it would be trivial. The "total war" aspect means that this PBM seems to actually have gotten harder, first with FLYdude's second half of his term and then with the last First Consul. This is a good thing, IMO. Our objectives for the campaign include taking down Seleucia, Egypt, Carthage & Thrace. Well, now we have a good reason to. Iberia is on the list too.

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We have no chance whatsoever of achieving these objectives if we have to fight everyone at once. We are already broke.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Fourthly, DDW may be tired of fighting everyone but a lot of us in the Lower House are itching to have battles. If he is talking from a First Consul point of view only, I can understand the frustration but then again maybe other First Consuls would not mind managing a "total war" situation.

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This is of course a personal preference. But I wonder how long the consuls will enjoy themselves if they can't build anything due to lack of funds. The enemy factions are so large now that they can raise vast armies without the bonus 10.000 they are getting now. At least this will stop them from buying up all the mercenaries all the time. I really doubt that we will have less battles if we decrease the campaign difficulty.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Fifthly, on the battle difficulty, the battles are quite hard enough already, given how stretched our forces are. A Praetorian Roman army against a Consular Successor one is not a push over, as our Co-Consul has proven twice. Quite frankly, I am worried for Numerius holding Byzantion with what he's got. If he is not reinforced, sooner or later, he's going down. If he has to face the Seleucids with a +4 attack, +4 morale or whatever hard is, I'm going to be seriously depressed.

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You will be defeated anyway if you have to face endless full stacks. The battles are not really all that much harder. I am only for upping the battle difficulty to balance the loss of infinite money for the AI.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Sixthly, I've always like Medium battles because I like the historical match-ups. Playing a realism mod and then skewing the combat to be unrealistic has never struck me as very intuitive.

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I feel we should balance the 'not so brilliant' AI by giving him better troops. I like a good challenge. However, the battle difficulty is not my major issue, I can live with battles on medium. But this campaign difficulty is my major issue.

With this post, let's shift the discussion on this amendment to the OOC-thread

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I must start by expressing my respect and gratitude to the First Consul. He, and his Co-Consuls, have led us in an exemplary fashion throughout the last five difficult years. I fear he is far too reserved about his achievements - to have conquered 18 settlements surely rivals anything done by his predecessors.

All that said, however, I find I am almost completely in disagreement with the motions he proposes to constrain and direct his successor. My basic stance is for minimal legislation - to leave the First Consuls free to respond to events and to make the hard decisions, based on careful thought and study, that are often not best made by the Senate at a distance and only in 2 and a half year intervals. My instinct, therefore, is to vote "No!" to all motions unless they are utterly necessary and self-evident (such as giving chirurgeons to front line armies, ** cough **).

Now on the substance of the motions available so far. Many appear unnecessary and others self-evidently wrong. Perhaps the most egregious is motion 11.5 calling for a sea blockade of the Bosphorus and making illegal any move across the straits. Senators, we have no evidence that a sea blockade would prevent the Seleucids crossing the straits - in fact, we have direct experience that it does not. Furthermore, it seems curious that the First Consul should seek to make illegal raids that he conducted in the last two seasons in office that secured the Republic nearly 20,000 gold and 10,000 slaves, at minimal cost in Roman blood. It is also strange that the First Consul praises the brilliance of ex-First Consul's great raid through a Gaul but seeks to prohibit a similar potential exercise through Seleucid held Asia Minor.

Senators, I do not propose that we push into Asia in a major offensive at this time. I agree that Carthage is a more tempting target - it is weaker and its lands, more self-contained so it would require less of a garrison. However, the First Consul is surely wrong to say that we can never defeat Seleucia and Egypt. It will not be easy and it is not the task for the next First Consul, but it is our destiny. And if we take settlements at the rate the First Consul has done, I suspect it will be accomplished within my life time. But that is the long term. In the short term, Seleucia will surely keep attacking us without respite and indefinitely until she is destroyed. Anything we can to weaken her - whether it is raids, pursuits across the straits, etc - should not be ruled out of hand. We would be forcing ourselves to fight with one hand behind our backs.

On motion 11.6, I confess I can see no point in an expedition to Rhodes. Surely Melite has taught us that it is hard to defend small islands? Indeed, the First Consul appears to have abandoned Melite - the Consular army aimed at Lepcis Magna could have liberated it en route - and was unwilling to even try to defend Sardinia. If Rhodes is to be raided, that is another matter but a distinctly low priority one in view of the strength of Seleucid armies around Maronia and beyond.

Motion 11.8, foreswearing further conquests in Europe appears too restrictive. What if Iberia attacks us? Should we just stand passive? The First Consul himself was certainly not passive with Greece, Macedon, Thrace and Egypt. At least put in a clause negating the motion in such an event. Are we not to take Anchlaus and close the last hole in our Danube frontier?

Motion 11.12, taking further Thracian cities and surrendering them to Germany, appears folly. Senators, I have been personally blamed for the wars with Seleucia and Egypt. I have laid before you an alternative hypothesis to explain these wars: whoever we share a land border with, will ultimately attack us. So it was with Thrace, Illyria, Macedon, Egypt and Seleucia. The only exception so far is Iberia, which we have only relatively recently bordered. Perhaps she has held off because our garrisons in the border provinces have been strong, I do not know. But if I am right, the corollary of my hypothesis is this: that, where possible, land borders with neutral powers should be avoided. It is for this reason, I have been quietly sceptical of the Viberi expediton, which will likely give us a land border with the Germans, and why I believe we should not take the last Thracian settlements in order to avoid contact with the Sarmatians. Where we wish to avoid war with powers such as Germany and Sarmatia, I believe it would be better to leave a weakened Thrace as a buffer state - much as we left two Gallic settlements between us and Iberia for so long.

I would also like to speak briefly about motion 11.4 - holding Byzantium at at all costs. I fear the motion currently seems little more than posturing. I believe serious thought should be given as to how we can best defend the straits. On the Maronia end, I believe at least a full Consular army will be required. The Seleucids are capable of sending multiple Consular-sized armies across the straits and a Praetorian army would be overwhelmed. Byzantion, unlike Maronia, has walls so has a season's grace. However, I do not believe walls provide any further advantage against the Seleucids, given that their fearsome hypaspists would likely be able to seize walls guarded even by Roman heavy infantry. Personally, I would prefer to meet the Seleucids at Byzantion in the field, where we will have more freedom to outmanouvre them, exhaust them and use our cavalry. But given the size of the Seleucid armies and the poor communications between Maronia and Byzantion, this could well require a second Consular sized army.

Conscript fathers,

I am gratified by the praise of Numerius Auriolus, however my goal was internal development, not conquest. I would have been a lot more pleased if we had not conquered Eastern Greece, and I have only realised half of what I wanted to accomplish economically. It is nice to have a great nation, but it would be a lot nicer if the cities in it were not rebellious low tax plague pits.

Concerning motion 11.5, I still think a naval blockade is possible. I think the fleets should just be a certain size, i.e. 3 ships seems to work. Due to the width of the land bridges at least 5 fleets will be needed, three for Maronia and two for Byzantium. Why else is there a 'no travel' zone around the fleet of three ships near Maronia ?

Concerning motion 11.6, taking Rhodes will probably add 50% to our revenue due to the Colossus wonder. Considering our current disastrous financial situation, this seems like a smart thing to do.

Concerning motion 11.8, we are already very overstretched and cannot guard what we have. Conquering even more land will make this problem even worse. Still, a looting and raiding campaign I have no problems with (OOC : But what about the rebellion problems ?)

OOC : Concerning motion 11.12, we would not have the problem of guaranteed war with our neighbours described by econ21 on a lower campaign difficulty.

EDIT : As Augustus Verginius has declined to run for consul, we have no candidates as of yet. I call on all senators who are willing to run for consul to do so. I will be away during this debate, so if anyone wants to run, but does not care for one of my motions, that motion can be considered withdrawn. Note that you can run for 2.5 years or 5 years, and can run alone or together.

EDIT : I have decided to change my consular amendment proposal :
Constitutional Amendment 11.A : We will organize a poll on changing the difficulty settings of the game to M/VH, M/H. M/M, H/VH, H/H or H/M. The one with the most votes, not 2/3 majority, or even a majority, will become the new setting. Only lower house senate member votes on the poll are valid and influence is not a factor in this poll. This amendment itself does require a 2/3 majority of senate votes to pass.

EDIT : I've verified a naval blockade is not possible. I must have been confused with EU II (now that's a game with good diplomacy AI). Accordingly, I am retracting Motion 11.5.

EDIT : Motion 11.9 is retracted, as when Viberi rebels it becomes a rebel town and that will provide a better protection for us than if the Germans get it.

Senator Marcellus Aemilius,

I have re-worded my motions BUT I point out to you that the wording for Motion #11.01 states:

“……targets of Carthago and Hadrumentum as a minimum…..”

As such it does NOT insist that both are held but rather that both are assaulted. Should it seem tactically impossible to assault and hold both, the Consul is free to order you to withdraw to any position you deem most defensible. Indeed, I have previously stated that Carthago should be sacked and only Hadrumentum held.

Senator Valerius Paullus,

My wording of Motion #11.00 has been amended but its focal point is to insist that TWO Consular armies are use.

As for Motion #11.02; we do indeed have armies stationed there. This motion is merely to ensure that they are placed in such a way as to “shepherd” the Iberian force out of our lands.

On motion #11.06 – I agree that an expedition to Rhodes will be folly. The town there is woefully underdeveloped and any force we send will be even MORE isolated than if it was in Byzantion and surrounded by Selucids! I cannot support it.

On my motion #11.04 – I confess, this is purely a personal issue. However, I believed it to have been one that you, Numerius Aureolus, would understand. Long did you lobby for the taking of that city and now….when things appear to dangerous…..you present us with doom and gloom and seemingly preparations for your withdrawal from the city?

Motion #11.04 stands as submitted but Senators, it is MY wish that Byzantion be held at all costs….it may not be yours. If not then do not support it.

(OOC: any ooc amendments I will discuss in the OOC thread).

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Forgive me, I was certainly not arguing for withdrawal from Byzantion. I was merely pondering outloud how best it is to be defended. Merely garrisoning the city and awaiting a siege does not seem the best tactic. On further reflection, I propose the following motion:

Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies and the best places to hold them off are at Maronia and Byzantion. However, it notes that the distance between these two settlements makes it impractical to defend them with just one army and so instructs the First Consul to work towards guarding them each with a Consular sized armies, each with a chirurgeon.

Senators, it seems we are in agreement that now is not the time to move further east. We may wish to take Rhodes (in the light of the First Consul's information, I second to that proposal); we may wish to conduct some opportunistic raides. But we currently intend to adopt a largely defensive stance in the east.

However, in taking this defensive stance, we need to be aware that Seleucia will use the landbridges to attack us unremittingly and we must give careful thought to the forces required to repell such repeated attacks over the next five years.

Currently we have two armies near the straits. Praetor Coruncanius's Field Army I and Legio V. Neither are Consular strength and while each may be able to defeat a Consular sized Seleucid army, I believe they would be quickly worn down by two or three such encounters. To avoid the risk of a repetition of the battles that led to the deaths of two of our Co-Consuls - and to minimise unncessary battlefield losses - I believe that both Maronia and Byzantion need to be guarded by Consular-sized armies.

Senators must note that the two settlements are too far to travel between in a single season and if a Consular sized army marches from Maronia to relieve a besieged Byzantion, it will leave open Maronia for attack. Moreover, it would be reckless to depend on Byzantion repelling an assault on its walls. One only has to read the account of my battle at Ratiaria to see what hypaspists are capable of doing to Roman infantry in confined spaces, and to see why I would prefer to meet them in the open, when they can be more easily flanked by cavalry:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...7&postcount=34

Some Senators may wonder at the cost of two Consular armies, but this is a foolish distraction. We must stop Seleucia and if we do not do it properly, we will have to waste a lot of gold on emergency recruitment of mercenaries, the sacrifice of settlements and heavy attrition of smaller armies rushed to the scene. Our two armies near the straits are already at the size of one and a half Consular armies - all that will be required is a Praetorian sized reinforcement of a core of good Roman infantry.

On another matter, I would also like to request that the second Consular army heading for Africa first liberate Melite and drive the Carthaginians from Sardinia. Roman honour demands it.

Motion 11.14: This house requires the expulsion of Carthaginian armies from Sardinia and Melite, prior to landing a second Consular army in Africa.

[OOC: there is some weird buggy AI behaviour - the Carthaginians have sat on the beaches in Melite and Sardinia for many many turns doing nothing. Its unrealistic and not good for the roleplaying size of the campaign - confronting them removes this eyesore.]

Numerius Aureolus,

I had imagined that the wording of my Motion was ambiguous enough but obviously not.

By “holding” Byzantion I do not wish to restrict the future Consul and his generals to just sitting IN Byzantion……we still “hold” a settlement as long as it is under our control.

My motion merely wished to impress the fact that we must not Loose control of the city for any reason. If you feel it needs rewording I will do so.

I second your motion #11.14 certainly and without question. However, I believe your motion #11.13 is to restrictive, also I believe we will not need Consular sized armies to defend these two points personally.....if the commanders choose their territory well a legion can hold a far greater force.

Perhaps you would consider re-wording it to "Three Legions" one each for each bridging point with a third in reserve?

Now, on your tactical assessment. I agree that the Selucids will continue to strike at us, however I have a slightly alternative plan which was inspired by your raids South.

Many of the Selucid settlements directly South to us are Coastal and I feel it would be very feasible to assemble a force to strike at these settlements and raid them. We have been shown that we can raid easily into Selucid territory and withdraw before the giant awakes. Now the point of my proposal are several in nature but the main ones are:

Revenue – the sums generated by these raids are very large indeed as are the influx of slaves to our population.

Production – the destruction of Selucid troop training and arming facilities that are ALL within a season or two’s march of OUR territories.

Scorched Earth – we leave the Selucids with a ravaged land where which mainly allows our spies and diplomats a large area to view and “control” without military forces being present.

Currently we have NO early warning of any very large Selucid army marching to the Bosperous (sp) straits, I feel we need to ensure that the Selucids CANNOT recruit and train locally to our border AND that any invading armies need to traverse all the way from the Selucid heartlands before reaching us and allowing us several seasons warning.

This will not require us to remain in their lands, only to leave small holding forces behind which can be paid for from the income generated by the raids. Also the raiding force need not be larger than a legion provided it is well supported by our navy in the area so they can withdraw to the ships should it become untenable.

We currently have naval superiority in the area, we should make THE best use of it now.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Manius Coruncanius, please consult the report of the second battle of Maronia:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...0&postcount=43

A single Praetorian army can hold a ford from Gauls. It cannot easily hold a settlement from a Consular sized Seleucid one. Legio V, guarding Byzantion, is in no better shape than Legio IV was before its destruction.

Immediately after Maronia was taken, Seleucia entered Europe with a second army as strong as that which destroyed Legio IV. There was a reason why the First Consul withdrew the First Field Army from Tylis in the face of this advance - and indeed why he refused my request to march Legio V to close the breach at Maronia. The First Consul recognised that sending a Praetorian sized force against a Consular one was folly - even if we succeed, the cost of victory would be too high.

I believe Seleucia can field many more armies of the Consular size. They have many settlements and deep pockets to recruit the ample mercenaries in the lands east of Byzantion (I could have recruited around 1000 men when I ventured there last season).

Senators, we need two Consular armies at the straits. To try to hold off a great kingdom like Seleucia with any less is folly. I do not understand how Senators can recognise that two Consular sized armies are a minimum to confront Carthage, but believe that Seleucia, a mightier power, can be held back with less. Consult the kill ratios for our battles with Seleucia, or the other successor kingdom, Macedonia. They tell the story.

Senator Manius Coruncanius, if you do not will the necessary resources to defend Byzantion, but insist on it being held to the last man, then I fear you will get your wish.

I should also add, that I am quite in agreement with the idea of an active defence of Byzantion, as should be evident by my proposing the raid on Prusa. Having two Consular arimies at the straits would make it much easier to conduct raids on the east, during lulls between Seleucid offensives. Believe me, Senators, men under my command do not sit idly by if I can help it.

I will second motion #11.13 and motion #11.14

Your information has swayed me, I to now second Motion #11.13

Servius's clerk stands, opens a scroll bearing the Aemilii seal, and begins to read.


Senator Servius Aemilius has left me with the following motions for proposal before he embarked upon his expedition.

Motion 11.15 The Carthaginian armies must be drawn away from Carthago for at least 3 seasons following the fall of Lepcis Magna before any consular army lands in Carthage.

This will allow sufficient time to draw away the bulk of their forces.

Motion 11.16 The praetorian army under the command of senator Servius Aemilius will be severely outnumbered, and therefore requests the right to purchase between 4 and 8 mercenary units following the fall of Lepcis Magna.

This will give sufficient troop numbers to defend against a consular sized Carthy army, will provide local troops who know the terrain, the locations and weaknesses of the local cities, and will provide fodder in case a fighting withdrawel is necessary. Why waste good Roman lives when mercenaries are so much more expendable?


He has also given me the right to second motions and vote in his stead. I therefore feel my master would second motions 11.4, 11.6, 11.7, and amendment 11.B .

EDIT - And, after personally reviewing the situation. I think I may have a suggestion myself for the eastern theatre.
Motion 11.17 Employ two units of mercenaries from the Bythinia region, one to garrison Nicomedia and one to garrison Prusa.

This is not with the intention of actually holding the provinces, but rather with the intention of slowing the Seleucids down..and with a strong enough mercenary force sent to Prusa, perhaps Thracian infantry, you may also notice that Pissidia is nearly undefended. After our mercenaries are pushed from Prusa, they may be able to loop around and sack Pissidia, this would continue to hinder the Seleucids and prove that even when outnumbered and surrounded, Rome can still strike out and make itself a sore thorn in the side. The manpower they would need to concentrate on chasing the mercs around would delay them temporarily, one season, maybe two, but any time would be welcome if it allows more troops to reach the eastern theatre.

(OOC - Adding any army unit to these towns before you hit end turn cancels that ctd error. The mercs are the cheapest way to go, and, at this point, the only reasonable option available.)

Motion #11.15 confuses me slightly. Does your master mean to insist that the Consular army withhold from landing near Carthago until at least three seasons after your masters landing at Lepcis Magna?

If it does then I support and second Motion #11.15, even though I feel three seasons march will bring the whole of Carthage against your master….but that is his choice.

As for Motion #11.16 – it is the Consuls choice at the time that allows funds for Mecenaries and instead of a Motion I would propose your master strongly lobby the new Consul directly to release funds for such a task.

Motion #11.17 (mainly for OOC reasons) I also second.

For the record I also support Constitutional Amendment 11.B

[SENATE SPEAKER]: On a point of information, Senator Servius Aemilus, please note that Prusa already has a garrison of one mercenary unit and Nicomedia has rebelled, falling to Seleucia. I suggest you withdraw Motion 11.17.

[OOC: I already followed your suggestion, Lucjan, :bow: and the next First Consul will start from 255-su-1.zip]

Senator Servius's clerk speaks up.

I do believe that is exactly what my master intends for motion 11.15

Ah..senator Aureolus, my apologies. I am but an aid, technically my job is the management of my masters estate..but I had noticed this possibility and thought, perhaps, it may be prudent to have said something. I was unaware that the issue had already been resolved. The information I have is, clearly, not quite as up-to-date as Senator Servius's. Err, well..sadly, it may actually be more up-to-date at the moment. Who knows what little he may know of the current situation, what with being out at sea for so long.

Since it has already been taken care of, I will withdraw motion 11.17.

(OOC - Hopefully Prusa has the Thracian infantry?? They could take that unit in Pissidia to town any day.)

I may as well re-word motion 11.15 as well.

Motion 11.15 (re-worded) - The consular army on its way to Carthage is to withhold from landing until the third season following the fall of Lepcis Magna.

(So when lepcis magna falls this summer, the consular army will wait until spring before landing.)

I would have thought [B]Motion 11.15[\B] would do more harm than good to the consular army. From what I understand, most of Carthage's army are still out west, waiting for 3 seasons after being warn of an invasion of Lepcis Magna, would probably lead to most of the armies running eastwards and be in the vincinity of the Carthage when the Consular Army landed. Unless there are clearer intelligence on the disposition of the armies of Carthage, such as 2-3 consular strength armies in a season or two's march from Carthage, I would urge all senators to vote against this motion.

Just let the next consul, with the aid of our spy around Carthage to decide when is the best opportunity to land the force.

Motion 11.15 is one of those motions I have always disliked. It is not for the Senate to be involved in the minutiae of military operations, it only needlessly ties the Consuls hands, and as such I will not support it.

However, I would like to make it clear that I do believe that a landing away from the main cluster of Carthaginian cities is the correct strategy.

With a sigh, Servius's clerk stands, and wishes more senators had some ancillaries of any intelligence to explain things to them.

Three seasons time, by my master's geographer's and mentor's calculations, will place Carthage's armies between one and two seasons march to the south of Carthago. Drawn southeast near Lepcis Magna, the consular army will have sufficient time to take Carthago, garrison the city, then head south towards whatever portion of the Carthy armies make an about-face and head back to take on the Consular army.

I feel that the basic premise of landing a force to the South East of Carthage’s main cities is sound…it will draw the greater bulk of their armies to it.

However, there are several aspects that I am very worried about, not least as I am likely to be attached to the invading Consular army.

Firstly, the Consul stated that he was going to invade Afrika with TWO Consular sized formations, as yet I do not see TWO Consular armies in position. What I do see is ONE Praetorian sized army which sorely requires re-enforcement either before or directly after landing and only ONE Consular army (to which I am attached).

Now, I have stipulated in one of my motions that the invasion of Afrika MUST be with TWO Consular armies and I dearly hope this motion is passed and that the next Consul must abide by it.

For if he does not, I truly hope that our transport ships are kept close by.

My other concern is that I feel that Servius has miss calculated the speed to which Carthage will respond and be in a position to attack his force.

Should his fleet remain close to the Carthaginian coast for a season or two whilst awaiting the Consular armies to be ready then does he, or the Consul, expect the Carthage forces to remain static?

Nay I say! They will see a large fleet off their coast baring troops; they have the same access to spies that we do. They will move a force to await Servius’s landing and all this preparation will be to naught.

This plan has been visualised correctly but enacted poorly. I try not to make a poor reference to the outgoing Consul but I strongly wonder why Servius has actually embarked already?

There is NO second Consular army ready for this invasion….if Servius waits in the sea, on his ships, for such an army to be raised and then marched to a port and then sailed into position…….Gods teeth Senators! Poor Servius will be on the ocean for YEARS Sirs!

I ask the next Consul, whomever it be, to withhold this attack on Afrika until the Republic is fully ready. Until TWO Consular armies are ready to board ships.

As it stands, should one Consular army land near Carthago and Servius’s Praetorian army land near Lepcus Magna, I seriously doubt that we will survive to return to Italia.

As for Senator Servius, he has an able Praetorian legion at his command. It should be put to use aiding the liberation of our Islands before embarking for Afrika.

The freeman clerk turns his attention to young Coruncanius.


If you feel so strongly of the situation senator Coruncanius, do tell, why have you not spoken out against the goings on until now?

The other thing, is master Servius has already embarked because this entire expedition was intended to be a secret, so that Carthage's spies could not possibly know of it, and Lepcis Magna would be caught with its toga down. There is, by all rights, no possible way to contact him until we hear word from Afrika. I imagine we will be hearing of the victory at Lepcis Magna soon, then we might be able to reach him.

I have waited until now as I believed the Consul when he pledged two Consular armies……unfortunately it has taken until now for my own personal informants (i.e. to get the save file) to advise me that the second Consular army doesn’t actually exist yet!

To be honest I feel betrayed but I will perform whatever duties the new Consul puts before me with my utmost vigour.

(OOC: Doesn’t the AI have the same ability to “left click to see details” on formations and fleets that we do? Even if we haven’t physically spied out a formation we can still view some very basic details i.e. those ships have troops onboard or that particular person is leading that army and it contains at least one phalanx unit etc. If it doesn’t then that seems like an unfair advantage the humans have doesn’t it?)

The clerk smirks in agreement. I have noticed often that there are those here who would have us sending legions this way and that, long before said legions actually exist. It is very misleading.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: There is a little over a day before the deadline for motions and the submission of candidates expires. I would implore any candidate for the post of First Consul to step forward and present his manifesto. The Senate cannot be expected to vote blind for someone!

Clerk of Senator Servius Aemilius, it seems that myself and your master see eye-to-eye on such things…..

A messenger enters, out breath and panting, he staggers towards Servius's clerk and presents him with a message, the clerk looks surprised.

Senators, I have just receieved a letter from Senator Servius! Apparently, a merchant ship bound for Rome from Crete was pushed off course by heavy rains and clouded skies, they wandered for a few days before running into Servius's fleet! There, they were given proper navigational charts and this message.

The clerk begins to read the message aloud.

"Senators! I speak to you now from abroad, I can see the sun swept coast of Afrika from our fleets. The sands here glitter as if they themselves were laden with gold, and it is clear to me now why such a place would yield the republic enormous profit. But, as well, I fear the cost. Our scouts have spoken to natives, conversed with merchants leaving their ports, and even purchased from them some of Carthage's own equipment. These Carthaginians have built themselves a nation that looks as though it were gifted from the gods themselves. Their weakest army is purported to be the same size as a Praetorian legion, and their city of Carthago, purported to be the rival of Rome.

Then...when I think back to Rome, and what Rome now resembles compared to what it once was, my heart sinks. We are beset on all sides by enemies who would have our land because they think us weak, because our legions are undermanned, battered, and stretched thin.

We are drained of our treasury by the constant hiring of mercenaries to do the fighting of good Roman men, because there are not enough cities to provide us with true, honorable fighting men. So we are left to draw them from the wandering, the war tribes, and the greedy.

And we are divided within, because our personal interests cannot seem to transcend ourselves and reach an ideal that all should work for the better glory of Rome. But I do not blame you. My life is threatened here in Carthage, and your lives are threatened in the theatres in which you all reside. Why am I so selfish as to think that, say, Numerious Aureolus, or Tiberius Coruncanius, has less of a need of aid than I? Because I am human. But this expedition has given me much time and shown me many sights, that I have set my heart on overcoming such trivial things. I am not now interested in personal desires. My heart lies with Rome, and all who would work for its greater good.

It is in that respect, and I hope that this message does not arrive too late, that I am announcing that I will run for consul. I feel it is my duty, my duty to myself, my duty to the senate, my duty to the people, and my duty for the very ideal of Rome.

I hereby Mandate that by the end of my 5 year term -
1 - Rome's eastern frontier will be reinforced, stabilised, strengthened, and held no matter the cost. The Seleucids and Ptolemies will then be justly punished for their arrogance and betrayal.

2 - Carthage will be delt with on a 'bleed them dry' basis. We will take our shots where we can, run them in circles and drain their treasury dry. After they have been weakened, we will work towards conquering their heartlands. But we cannot send imaginary legions that don't yet exist to fight in outnumbered and enormously costly battles.

In the north, Quintus Libo is moving east to attack Thrace from its backside, but at the same time a small contingent of Iberians have looked across the river and set their eyes on Viberi. This is the only excuse they need, an undefended Roman town, to launch an all out war against our western front. We cannot afford this, it will destroy us. Therefore...

3 - I will put Quintus Libo to good use against the Thracians, but we must remain at peace with Iberia. Viberi will be handled in the most effective way possible. Quintus Libo will be sent to the Thracian front, and war with Iberia will be staved off for as long as is possible.

4 - While the far east is beset upon by the Seleucids, the nearer Greeks and Macedonians are near open revolt! I will stabilise our Greek and Macedonian colonies and ensure that they become, at the very least, acceptable (yellow happiness rating) of Roman rule, rather than discontented and resentful (blue, like they are now). I will strive to make them happy, supporting members of the republic, but greeks are stubborn :laugh4:, and I must work within our limitations. So I cannot promise their absolute support (green.)

5 - I will make economic development a high priority for our towns that bear the most promising economic oppertunities.

6 - Those that have less of a chance of becoming economic powerhouses, will be put to good use by working to make them into soldier producing cities. We can no longer rely solely on the cities of Latium and Etruria to protect the whole of the Republic. It takes a DAMNED long time just to march from Latium to Byzantium! The Greeks and others in the area must begin to pull their weight for the republic. They must begin to supply our lands with a military.

7 - We must also establish new avenues of diplomacy. Our diplomats should embark on missions to far away lands, perhaps Sarmatia or Armenia. Our ships can carry us to the farthest corners of the world senators, any additional trade or alliances would be beneficial in the long run to Rome.

In short, I will strive to make Rome not just into a vision of what it once was, what it was before our neighbors overstretched our lines, plunged us into chaos and war, and stabbed us in the back. I will strive to lay the foundation, the building blocks for all of Rome to be not just equal, but far greatter than it had ever been before. Travelers will look upon the Republic of Rome and see that our sands glitter with gold a thousand times brighter than those of Carthage. They will look upon the strength of our armies and be left in insurmountable awe, they will look upon the defense of our borders, and wonder as to the stupidity of any who would mean us harm. And they will look to our farms, and wonder... How in the HADES we could grow olives the size of a man!

Senators! I set this choice before you. Do what you feel is right for the good and glory of Rome!"

Servius Aemilius

The clerk sets the message aside and bites his lower lip, hoping only that he delivered the message with the passion it was written in.

I share the concerns of Senator Servius Amelius regarding the Iberian force near Viberi. You all know my feelings towards barbarians, but I am not a fool. The Republic absolutely cannot afford a war with Iberia. We must exert our utmost efforts in maintaining the peace until we have achieved domestic security. We cannot afford to wait for the city to rebel against us, we must hand control of it to another nation, immediately, so that a war does not erupt between us and Iberia if they choose to assault it.

Since a Consul is forbidden from giving lands to other nations without Senatorial approval, I propose the following motion.

Motion 11.18: The Consul must give Viberia to any nation that will accept it before ending his first turn, including hostile nations such as Thrace. If a simple gift of the territory is not enough to immediately dispose of the city, the Consul may add as much money as he deems necessary to the deal.

While I would be displeased if we had to spend 10,000 dinarii to dispose of that dungheap, even that sum would be a bargain in comparison to the costs of an added war with Iberia. Perhaps future Consuls will take such matters into account in the future before illegally expanding beyond the limits allowed by the Senate simply for the purposes of raiding.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senators, as I believe you know, I have decided to keep the polls open until Monday 6pm UK time to allow Lucius Aemilius and Manius Coruncanius to vote.

However, given that we have only just had a manifesto posted - and have a likely candidate who has not yet posted a manifesto - I am inclined to delay opening the polls until Sunday 6pm UK time, rather than begin the voting on Saturday 6pm. This would give us another day to quiz the candidates before anyone commits their vote. At the moment, I feel we may be making this key decision in the dark.

If any Senators are strongly opposed to this idea, please speak now.

What now follows is the manifesto of Senator Marcellus Aemilius:

Conscript Fathers, we are entering dark times in the Republic. We are at war on all sides except for one, and that one is now threatening us on two fronts. Some people may say that anyone wishing to run for Consul would be insane, but am, after all, the brother of Manius the Mad. :grin:

My priorities lay with consolidation and the Carthaginian Expedition. I believe that the current "staggered attack" format will succeed. According to my calculations, the Consular Army will land on Carthaginian soil three seasons from now. By that time my nephew Servius will have held Lepcis Magna for at least six months, ample time to draw the Carthaginian forces away from our striking point.

Do not forget, Senators, that the purpose of this Expedition was to make money. Our treasury has been drained by the constant warring, especially with the loss of trade with Ptolemy and Seleucia. With our strikes on Afrikan territory I aim to get that money back. Let me tell you my exact plans in regard to this:

-First of all we will only hit cities on the coast.

-Servius Aemilius will take and hold Lepcis Magna. It will most likely be the only town held in the entire Expedition. This is the first strike. It will also draw the Carthaginian forces away from my landing point.

-Two seasons later, I will hit a city on the Northern Coast, most likely Utica or Hippo Reguis. It will also bring the Carthaginian forces back here to me.

-This will continue until all cities on the Afrikan Coast are raided. I want these cities crippled so badly that the Carthaginians cannot recover from it. Ordinarily my goal would be simple conquest, be we simply do not have enough troops to spare.

-In addition, I also want the Carthaginian armies significantly lessened. We do not know exactly how many there are, but we know there are a lot.

-Finally, if our forces are still intact, we shall expel the Carthaginian forces from Melite and Sardinia.

In addition to the Expedition, I want our Greek cities to fully realize their economic potential. In order to do this, we must first pacify the cities. Religious buildings will be a priority, as will Auxilia ones. I eventually would like to see Provincial Barracks built in at least two cities.

As far as reinforcements go, the Eastern Front will be the priority. Eventually the forces of Senators Aureolus and Coruncanius should be increased to Consular-size strength to properly weather the storm.

I believe that our forces this side of the Alps are numerous enough to hold off the Iberians. They will be properly rotated if the fighting gets hard. Viberi, however, is another matter. I have absolutely no intention of warring with them, and will seek to get rid of it at all costs. If worst comes to worst, I may just give the settlement to them.

Rhodes is another priority. Its Collossus is a massive monument that calls all ships near it to dock, and thus the naval trade for our entire Republic will skyrocket if taken. This would be a huge boost to our income and it will be taken by the end of my five-year term.

In order to take it, however, one of our legions must be freed up to do so. This is why I want war on the Thracian Front to be finished up. Perhaps the Field Army II or Legio I Italia Vitrix could be relieved by the German Legion once it is done conquering in the far north.

I believe I have addressed my plans for all fronts as well as my domestic priorities. In closing, I have some words for the generals. Senators, hard times are ahead. You will consistently be tested, especially those on the Eastern Front, by armies that are larger than us. Reinforcements will be sparse. This is not a time for heroes. This is a time for brutally efficient soldiering. You must kill them without dying. If my economic and auxilia plans are implemented, then there will come a time in the near future where we are not desperately floundering for cash and all people will tremble in fear of Rome.

Thank you.

(My response to the motions will come shortly.)

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I am grateful to Senators Marcellus and Servius Amelius for providing their manifestoes. I will require some time to digest them and identify any differences in the two programmes.

In the interim, I would like to withdraw motion 11.14, requiring clearing Melite and Sardinia of Carthaginians. While my heart is still in favour of this motion, I have been persuaded that the casualties from such actions would handicap our main push into Africa. I do not wish to make the First Consul's job any harder than it already is and so I withdraw the motion.

I would also like to advise the candidates to be flexible regarding the timing of our landing in Carthage. Spies have reported large Carthaginian armies marching west from Carthage, towards Iberia. If they take the bait provided by the landings in Lepcis Magna and march east, I fear they only reach Carthage and the heartlands in Africa in around two seasons - that is to say, the time proposed by Servius Aemilius for the landing of the Consular army. I believe we have spies in Africa, I would propose using them to assist in timing the landing but above all remain flexible.

I have a series of questions for both candidates.

Do you find that we take an unnecessary risk when we give command of a large army to young and inexperienced junior officers unproven in battle?

Where and how do you intend to deploy the units in the east, in order to defend against the Seleucids?

By the end of your term, if everything goes well, which Carthaginian lands do you plan to have taken for the purpose of permanently holding?

To what degree, if any, do you plan to restrain expeditions into the forests beyond the Danube?

I welcome and thank you for your questions, Senator Coruncanius.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

Do you find that we take an unnecessary risk when we give command of a large army to young and inexperienced junior officers unproven in battle?

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It is a risk, yes. But it is necessary. There are simply not enough proven veteran commanders to lead every force. You will find that I am a very able leader, Senator Coruncanius.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

Where and how do you intend to deploy the units in the east, in order to defend against the Seleucids?

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Legio V Alaudae will be unified and immediately sent to Byzantion. Senator Aureolus has personally requested to repel any Seleucid attempts to take the city by sally battle, and I trust his combat acumen to let him. As for Field Army I, you know your fighting style best. Tell me where to place the army and chances are that it will be placed there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

By the end of your term, if everything goes well, which Carthaginian lands do you plan to have taken for the purpose of permanently holding?

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Just Lepcis Magna. We do not have the resources to completely conquer Afrika, so the Expedition will be a series of raids, just like Senator Verginius did with Gaul some time ago. Lepcis Magna is intended to be a foothold to be used for attacks on Carthage at a later date. It is situated pretty much away from the action, and I will not put a significant defending force in there nor care if it is taken.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

To what degree, if any, do you plan to restrain expeditions into the forests beyond the Danube?

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As soon as Thrace is destroyed, I intend to get rid of all lands beyond the Danube. My long-term goal is once our financial situation stabilizes that legions guard the crossings.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Do none of the candidates have any plans of ever conquering Afrika? I ask this because it seems raids are the main course of action being discussed. Now, this is all good and well to bolster our treasury and cripple theirs, not to mention slow down their unit production, but if we go down this road, I must know that there will be no long term plans of conquering the place. Reason being of course that all the infrastructure we destroy, we will then have to build back up and spend ten times more money than we got in the first place.

In short, I support either a series of raids on all the Afrikan cities we can get to, or a well thought out plan to actually conquer certain cities and areas, but not both. I would appreciate any clarification of the matter by either of the candidates. This, I believe, is a central issue in this coming election, at least for my vote.

I second motions #11.14, 11.15 and 11.16

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Cornelius Saturnius raises a good point - we are making Africa the first priority for our spare troops, but only for a grand raid?!? Senators, this strategy seems more worthy of our barbarian neighbours than Romans! If we are to move into Africa, it must be for good.

The region is very self-contained. There is at best one entrance by land, over the straits of Gibraltar. Consequently, the costs of occupying it in the long term are only settlement garrisons and a force at the straits. It would not greatly extend our land frontier. The cost in blood of taking the settlements would not be very different, regardless of whether they are held or abandoned. We would have to defeat the major Carthaginian armies regardless. Holding the settlements permanently would greatly increase our tax base, provided we do not demolish all the buildings. Looting would provide rich temporary injections of cash, but Senator Cornelius Saturnius is right, the buildings themselves are worth more than the sum of their parts.

Ultimately, we are destined to occupy Africa. If we are willing to pay the blood price to take it now, I see no point in just looting it and giving it back to Carthage. In such a case, we would merely have to pay a second blood price to take it again, perhaps from the Iberians or a renascent Carthage. No, Senators, if we go to Africa, we should stay. Carthage must be destroyed and we must take her place in the sun!

Senators, I would like the candidates to reflect on this and other Senators to let their views on the matter be known. I may even propose a motion requiring Africa to be held permanently. I believe the Speaker has granted us another 24 hours for debate and proposing of motions so we have time to deal with this matter properly.

I agree with Cornelius Saturninus and Numerius Aureolus that the expidition to Carthage must be one of conquest, and not one of raiding.

Their cities are well built and developed. These are not some ram-shack stinking barbarian hovels we are talking about! We will not have to pay an enormous amount to bring them up to Roman standards - unless we tear them down and then build them back up again!

Furthermore, taking the coastal cities will not cripple the Carthaginian military threat. They will still be able to recruit huge numbers from deep in their hinterlands.

No, I am afraid that the only way to fight in Carthage is to fight as if we mean to stay! Numerius is correct in his pointing out that once we have conquered all of Carthage, we will have a self-contained, safe area of our Republic. The way from Egypt to Carthage is impassable (OOC: landblock), we merely have to block the southern part of the straits of Gibraltar.

We must conquer Carthage - all of it!

First of all I'd like to point out I'm not a fan of this invasion at all, I find it to be a waste of troops which could have been sent to re enforce our eastern frontiers, and for that matter our Western ones at well. This whole invasion will backfire at one point or the other, it's just a matter of time.

However, what can I do about it ? It has already been decided.

Thus, I am of opinion that if we do such an invasion, we do it the Roman way. We stay, and face the consequences of our actions, in the long run I think holding the settlements will be better than raiding them, that counts in particular for the Coastal cities. As is already said, why destroy something we'll eventually have to rebuild ?

:balloon2:

I believe that the main aim of this invasion was to raise money for our failing economy due to the lost of sea trade to nearly everyone except ourselves and the Iberians. This could be achieve either by raid, for the short term gain, or conquest for the long term gain. I think it will actually hinder Carthage in that the costal cities are the best developed of their cities and thus are where the majority of their incomes and best troops are coming from.

I believe that if we are able to capture the wall cities, holding them on the city walls from the inferior swordsman of Carthage will be not a difficult proposition. As such I would lend support to an invasion rather than just a raid.

Servius's clerk stands, preparing a responce to all of the questions fielded.

From senator Tiberius Coruncanius.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

I have a series of questions for both candidates.

Do you find that we take an unnecessary risk when we give command of a large army to young and inexperienced junior officers unproven in battle?

Where and how do you intend to deploy the units in the east, in order to defend against the Seleucids?

By the end of your term, if everything goes well, which Carthaginian lands do you plan to have taken for the purpose of permanently holding?

To what degree, if any, do you plan to restrain expeditions into the forests beyond the Danube?

---

Firstly, I do not believe that senator Servius feels the risk is with giving our young generals a large army at all, but that the risk is in not providing them with adequate advice, information, and support. Commanding a large army is the same as commanding a small, it is all just a matter of organisation, and Rome's armies, senator, are the most disciplined fighting men in the world. As proven during the Publius Laevinus incident, where the men were led by Manius the Mad. This legion, in essence, had no commander, which is far worse than simply a young one, yet they still, by their own free will, worked to the best of their abilities to put the threat down. As you know they were overwhelmed, but any of our bright young generals has the ability to have fought that battle and won.

Secondly, senator Servius has mentioned to me multiple times that the blatant hard-nosed defense of static positions like Byzantium and legionary forts will not win us the war in the east until we can wear the enemy down to a manageable level through cunning tactics and superior strategy. He has mentioned leaving small garrisons in these places, and withdrawing our armies out of sight but within a short march from them. The Seleucids will be enticed into an easy target and lay siege, the legions, led by our highly skilled commanding senators, would be well able to surround and summarily obliterate the enveloped besiegers before they knew what hit them. I cannot immediately, until a more in depth study is done into our unit positions a bit later, comment on exactly who will be where fighting whom, but all our eastern generals will experience their fair share of combat.
I know senator Aureolus has specifically requested a sally battle, but wouldn't it be much more interesting to see the fear on the Seleucids' faces when they realise you're no longer in the city, but marching your spear point straight up their arse? Do you remember the Trojan Horse senator? Why not have a battle of your own go down in history for such equal cunning and guile?

Carthage is a tenuous situation at best right now, until we can free up significant resources to launch a conquering invasion, which Servius has mentioned to me to hope to be able to do within a year and a half's time, by then we will have the eastern front stabilised and be able to begin strongly securing our borders there. Until then we can only announce vague predictions and speculations. The most important order of business for Carthage is attempting a guerilla war against their armies to widdle them down to a manageable level, and then, after Rome is no longer in such terribly dire straits, could we speak seriously of conquest in Carthage. We do, however, realise that conquest of Carthage must begin within the next five years, and we hope to make significant gains in this region as soon as we can. A fair, realistic proposal for what we hope to accomplish here would be...taking and holding Lepcis Magna, Thapsus, Hadrumentum, Carthago and Utica, within the next five years.

Also, senator Servius believes that any conquering expedition on the opposite side of the Danube would be an ill thought maneouver at the moment, but he does most certainly wish to send a legion across the river to try to gather logistical intelligence and to potentially hunt down and destroy roaming Thracian armies.

Are there any further questions I can assist with?

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Good - given that I am not alone in wishing a permanent settlement of the dispute with Carthage, I propose:

Motion 11.19: This house instructs that any Carthaginian settlements taken be permanently held.

I understand that there is merit in dealing first with Carthage before turning to Asia. Its lands are much more self-contained and while it is strong militarily, it has more limited resources to draw upon than Seleucia and Egypt. But I would resent merely defending the straits for five years if all it buys us is time to conduct a raid in Africa. If all that is needed is money, a grand raid in Asia would probably make more sense. Carthage seems incapable of moving effectively against us - its landings in Melite and Sardinia have stalled. We could probably ignore it for five years. By contrast, Seleucia is a real threat whose armies we must confront, whether on our soil or by a great raid through Asia Minor.

The motion needs two seconders - I would be grateful for the support of the Senators who have just spoken.

On a point of information, I have been informed by the Senate speaker that the list of motions will be updated this evening and voting will commence at 6pm Sunday (UK time).

Servius's clerk pipes up again.

In regards to congruence with my master's views, I hereby second motion 11.19 in his name.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucjan

I know senator Aureolus has specifically requested a sally battle, but wouldn't it be much more interesting to see the fear on the Seleucids' faces when they realise you're no longer in the city, but marching your spear point straight up their arse? Do you remember the Trojan Horse senator? Why not have a battle of your own go down in history for such equal cunning and guile?

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To clarify, I agree that fighting the Seleucids in the open is preferable to merely defending Byzantion. That was the point of mentioning a sally battle - it is preferable to awaiting an assault. Unfortunately, Byzantion is currently too unruly to be left without either my presence as a governor or a significant contingent from Legio V. Senators will see the force that could be spared to raid Prusa - a mere 322 men:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...0&postcount=45

This situation should gradually be relieved if the next First Consul invests in shrines and other buildings to win over the local populace; and/or provides Legio V with substantial reinforcements.

Nothing would please me more than to have Legio V capable of fighting in the field as a mobile force - operating in the area around Byzantion rather than being constrained to stay within the city itself. Your suggestion of a trojan horse tactic is certainly one I find appealing.

The clerk strokes his chin.

It will be, not simply a boon, but a necessity, to have mobile forces in the area if Seleucia is to be layed firm amongst the dirt. The eastern theatre is, quite clearly, in sore need of reinforcements, without them and a mobile force the east will be lost. My master realises this.

I will second Motion 11.19 then.

I have openly stated before that any attack on Carthage must be designed to take and hold their core cities. The value of these places is in their trade and it would be pure folly to strip them of their great infrastructure for short-term gain. These are not poor Gallic provinces that would aid the Republic little in the long-run. These are wealthy, prosperous cities whose control will greatly benefit us... but only if they remain intact. Strip them of their infrastructure and their use to us will be greatly diminished.

For this reason, I formally support Senator Servius Aemilius for the position of Consul. This competition between the Aemilii puts me in a difficult position and I wish it to be clear that I believe the Republic will be in good hands, regardless of the outcome of this election. However, both Consuls are proposing raiding Carthage rather than conquering it. So be it, but Marcellus Aemilius plans to strip all of their cities bare, something that I do not believe is in the Republic's best interests. If we cannot conquer them now, then we should hold back from anything more than destroying their armies and enslaving their children to work in our mines. When the time eventually comes for us to conquer Carthage fully, we will then reap the rewards of earlier restraint.

Ok, a little explaining is needed.

The reason I proposed a series of raids is that we do not know how many Carthaginian forces there are out there. Our spy Decius Curtius is currently around Thapsus - he should be sent to the unknown area. I estimate that there will be at least three Consular-size armies to the west of Carthago, probably closer to five.

Five Consular-size armies in the heart of their lands, Conscript Fathers. And that's just near the coast. Who knows how many more are lurking deeper in the desert?

A direct invasion while Carthage is at full strength is foolishness, Senators. We simply do not have the resources to completely conquer Afrika. These raids will not knock out the entire cities, just their military buildings. The purpose of them is to get enough money so that we can stablilize our economy, and be strong enough to fully challenge Carthage later.

This is the same thing that happened with Greece and Macedon all over! We go in with the prospect of conquering land, and making money but it turns out that pacifying them costs too much and we've opened up whole other cans of worms now. If Carthage is taken over we will border Iberia on her homeland. I shudder to think how many armies they have there.

Please Senators, use your heads. Carthage will be conquered, but it must be a gradual process. This is but the first step.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The list of motions and their seconders (first post in this thread) is up to date. Please notify me of any errors spotted. Some motions still lack two seconders.

The deadline for motions and candidates is 6pm (UK time) on Sunday and there will follow a 24 hours period of voting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by econ21

[b][NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]
Motion 11.19: This house instructs that any Carthaginian settlements taken be permanently held.

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Might I request that you add the addendum unless the strategic or tactical situation is such that a withdrawal is the more prudent option.

I would hate to see a Consul impeached because he withdraw a handful of auxilia from a worthless city as an enemy Consular army bore down upon him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi

Might I request that you add the addendum unless the strategic or tactical situation is such that a withdrawal is the more prudent option.

I would hate to see a Consul impeached because he withdraw a handful of auxilia from a worthless city as an enemy Consular army bore down upon him.

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{Cornelius Saturninus}

I concur with Senator Paullus about this. It is never good to put extra restrictions and limit tactical and strategic options in such a way. I must request a change in the motion for further support of it.

Furthermore, I'd like to second the following motions.

11.16
11.18

We need another seconder for Motion 11.18, it is imperative. Please do so senators.

I will second Motion 11.18 then.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I wonder if this revision of motion 11.19 is acceptable:

"This house requires that any campaign in Carthaginian territory in Africa be aimed at permanent occupation, not raiding and subsequent abandonment."

I have no interest in impeaching future First Conuls or making them fight to the last man for some worthless settlement. However, it is an important decision whether we go into Africa for a grand raid or for permanent occupation.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

As long as it is not forcefully mandated that every single Carthaginian city we take must be held immediately, all will be well. I believe the revision is acceptable. The details will be left up to the Consul's discretion.

The reworded motion 11.19 is acceptable to me, and as such I will second it

I will also second motion 11.18

I am not particularly satisifed with either of the candidates' proposals for dealing with Carthage. It would appear that they are afraid to confront the might of Carthage directly. They are certainly not cowards, so it must be their inexperience. They've never commanded a large army, and I don't think they've ever seen a proper Roman Consular Army in action, although they might have read about one. They're simply unaware that no possible Carthaginian force can defeat one. Maybe if the Carthaginians succeed in coordinating the efforts of three or more of their large armies, but they've never been able to do that, they're far too disorganized. Why, they only have a handful of them. Five, according to the estimate of Marcellus Aemilius. We could crush them in five battles! A steady stream of reinfrocements and local mercenaries ought to be able to make up for the losses.

But I guess that's not an option this time around. I suppose I'd support Servius Aemilius because at least his plan involves eventual conquest. That's assuming that he doesn't cancel the invasion on the grounds that it would be too risky!

Servius's clerk ponders the remark for a moment before offering his reply.

My master's feet are set firm in the sands senator Coruncanius. Though a 'steady stream' of reinforcements may be difficult to achieve with our meager fleet somehow needing to be in multiple places at once, we were counting on a significant number of mercenaries, perhaps Berbers or Iberians, to help reinforce any gap in our lines. But the lands we take will be held.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Now that I have had a chance to study the manifestoes and words of the two candidates, I must declare myself in favour of Servius Aemilius. I apologise to Marcellus Aemilius for retracting a premature undertaking of support that I had made earlier in private. I believe both candidates would be worthy choices, but the key issue for me is that we go to Carthage as conquerors, not raiders.

Very well, it seems that the Senate has opted for my nephew Servius. I will not withdraw my candidacy, but hope that the strategy that you have agreed to is a wise choice, and also hope that Senator Coruncanius is correct when it comes to the handling of the Consular Army.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In view of events on the Senate floor, I am reinstating motion 11.14 - I believe we should drive away the Carthaginians from Sardinia and Melite first, before landing a Consular army in Africa. We could still begin by landing the Praetorian army in Lepcis Magna, if the First Consul wishes it (for example, to bait Carthaginian armies to leave the area around Carthage).

As well as removing two blots on the landscape, reclaiming the islands may provide useful experience for the leader(s) of our African expeditions. It might also give the Carthaginians more time to take the bait and march to Lepcis Magna, if the intention is to land a force near Carthage.

If we are going to Africa, we should do it right and that means removing the Carthaginian invaders from our lands first.

I agree, and therefore second motion 11.14

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Senators, I would like to propose -

Motion 11.20 "Upon the conquest of Carthage, the city be renamed to New Rome".

Seeing as how the invasion and conquest of Afrika will be a milestone in our glorious history, and the city of Carthage itself will be a great resource for our Republic, I think it fitting to rename the city as proposed as a testament to Roman expansion and Roman rule. It will also make it easier for the new people's to assimilate and become good Roman producers for our benefit.



OOC: This is possible in 1.5 and BI. Would be a cool way to implement it for our game ~:) . Of course, if there is a better suggestion for any other name, that can be made known. "New Rome" is just the first thing that came into my head, but it could have something to do with Jupiter or other Roman gods, or some other Roman name for some RP purpose. Maybe the name of a great general who conquers the city or leads the campaign. I think that'd probably make it the most interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by econ21

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In view of events on the Senate floor, I am reinstating motion 11.14 - I believe we should drive away the Carthaginians from Sardinia and Melite first, before landing a Consular army in Africa. We could still begin by landing the Praetorian army in Lepcis Magna, if the First Consul wishes it (for example, to bait Carthaginian armies to leave the area around Carthage).

As well as removing two blots on the landscape, reclaiming the islands may provide useful experience for the leader(s) of our African expeditions. It might also give the Carthaginians more time to take the bait and march to Lepcis Magna, if the intention is to land a force near Carthage.

If we are going to Africa, we should do it right and that means removing the Carthaginian invaders from our lands first.

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No!

Have the deaths of Amulius Coruncanius and Publius Pansa taught you nothing? Romans, while strong, are not invincible!

Senators, please, I beg of you to reclaim your sanity! What are our motives here? Is it to invade Carthage and make money or simply kill as many of them as we can before we are overwhelemed?!

If the Senate commands me to attack Consular-size forces on Sardinia and Melite, then my army will be battle-worn even before the invasion starts! And then there's still the fact that there's the massive amounts of troops on the actual bloody continent! As word of this debate reaches my army their morale gets lower every day. They believe you send them to their deaths!!!

Opposition to my plan has been universal, but look at my most vocal critics. Numerius Aureolus is far away in Byzantion. Not even he dares to invade Asia Minor, instead just wishes to raid it - just like my plan with Carthage! Cornelius Saturnius talks of glorious achievements and conquests, what does he care? He's safe in Tylis with his legion. He might see some action against Thrace or take Rhodes, but he's not about to face giant army after giant army!

Please Senators, I beg of you to tell me what I did wrong so I may know why you wish to see me dead along with my men.

Well, Senator Marcellus Aemilius, if you feel that you are unable to execute the orders which the Senate and the Consul give to your army, then feel free to request to be relieved from your post. I am sure that there is no shortage of brave men who would very much wish to act as your replacement.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Marcellus Aemilius, I have no objection to conquering Asia. Give me a Consular army and you may be surprised at the results.

However, I do believe that conquering Carthage is the more natural first move before venturing deep into Asia. I agree, we should not underestimate the challenge. In part, I am proposing reclaiming the islands as an exercise to gauge how well the Consular army performs against strong Carthaginian opposition. This will allow us to judge what level of support it requires. If as a result, the next Consul decides that invading Carthage requires two Consular armies, then I would not object.

I agree with you - five Consular sized armies in Africa are a challenge. To simply land one Consular army there and battle them all would be reckless. At the very least, it would need a continual flow of reinforcements to make sure our Consular army is kept up to full strength, after detaching garrisons and replacing losses. A simple strategy would be to land the Consular army with the Praetorian one at Lepcis Magna and fight our way up to the coastal road to Carthage. The Consular army, supported by a Praetorian army providing replacements, should be able to endure whatever the Carthaginians throw at it, provided a steady stream of replacements is ensured.

If we first provoke the Carthaginians to move on Lepcis Magna while we retake the islands, that would be to our advantage. It will take them longer to reach Lepcis Magna that it would our Consular army, even after retaking the islands. The Carthaginians would be further away from their reinforcements. Furthermore, with a phalanx-based army like that of Carthage, we would have an advantage fighting defensive battles - we can tire out our opponents before combat starts.

Senator Marcellus Aemilius, you seem to assume that any losses the Consular army suffer retaking the islands will not be made good. Given the priority assigned to the forthcoming Afrika campaign, this is not a reasonable assumption. There is no reason we cannot make good those losses (unless they are catastrophic, in which case we need to rethink the whole project or at least its commander). Indeed, throughout the campaign, I believe the Consul must strive to make good any losses suffered by the Consular army, until the major Carthaginian armies are all defeated, unless it is to be ground down into nothing. This reasoning is also why, in motion 11.13, I propose building up our eastern armies to Consular strength.

Motion 11.14 is partly a motion about pacing. I agree it would not be prudent to land a single under-strength Consular army in Afrika. I envisage the invasion of Afrika as a slow, deliberate exercise. The strength of the opposition, our limited resources and the wide open spaces involved imply that it will not be a quick blitz. I imagine it could be completed in the next five years, but it would not be a great loss if it takes longer.

I second motion 11.20.

Following private communication with Servius Aemilius, I am also revising motion 11.13 to give the next First Consul more flexibility:

revised Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies. However, it notes that the distance between Maronia and Byzantion makes it impractical to defend them with just one army. Consequently, it so instructs the First Consul to work towards establishing two Consular sized armies to hold against Seleucia, each with a chirurgeon.
Proposed: Numerius Aureolus
Seconded: Manius Coruncanius, Augustus Sempronius

Quote:

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Originally Posted by econ21

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In view of events on the Senate floor, I am reinstating motion 11.14 - I believe we should drive away the Carthaginians from Sardinia and Melite first, before landing a Consular army in Africa. We could still begin by landing the Praetorian army in Lepcis Magna, if the First Consul wishes it (for example, to bait Carthaginian armies to leave the area around Carthage).

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I cannot and will not support this motion! The Carthaginian armies on Melite and Sardinia are no threat to us! Thanks to the tireless efforts of Concul Lucius Aemilius the Carthaginian navy is all but wiped out and it will take them many seasons to rebuild it. The enemy armies on those 2 islands can do nothing to us, and the islands themselves are sparsely populated and of little value.

If we are to win this war with Carthage whilst we are faced with so many other challanges, we must strike fast, strike hard, and hit them where it hurts!!. Landings on these islands will only further delay the main course, which is the taking of North Africa. Furthermore, it will whittle down our strength, requiring reinforcements (which will be needed elsewhere), thus causing even more delays.

No, I say conquer Africa first, then we can defeat these armies at out leisure.

In light of recent evidence and opinions, I must withdraw my support for motion 11.14 I see now that if we hit Carthage hard at her homeland, she will be crippled. The Carthaginian armies on Sardinia and Melite are there because Carthage wants to know of an invasion before it happens. We must fight them on our terms, right where it will hurt them most; Afrika.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: I am now closing this session of Senate - no more motions may be proposed or seconded. The results of the Consul elections and the voting will be announced in 24 hours.

It comes to me, as eldest living Male in my family to now speak in favour of Senator Servius Aemilius for Consul.

Long have our two families been at odds but, today this bickering feud ends.

I will be happy to serve under Servius Aemilius as a loyal member of the Republic and I will rebuild my family alongside the Aemilius's as the new Consul leads us into a new era of prosperity.

Granted, it seems a wild dream at this moment. Such talk of prosperity must appear at odds with our situation but I can see such a dawn if we are lead by this stout citizen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Braden

It comes to me, as eldest living Male in my family...

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Hey! I'm not dead yet!

Conscript fathers,

I am placed with an impossible dilemma. Two members of my family, strong and proud men, who I am proud to be pater familias of, are both striving for that most exalted of positions, the position of First Consul.

As you can see, senators, whomever I will back as my choice, all I will achieve is a Pyrrhic victory here. I hope my family will see that my choice for first consul is not driven by a lack of respect for their skills, but for concern about the fate of our great Republic.

My son Marcellus is of course correct that Carthage is a formidable enemy and this is a very risky expedition. I have pointed this out myself, but I have also explained that our best long term strategy is the conquest of Carthage, no matter the cost.
Realize fully what I imply here, senators. We must succeed in this war of conquest against Carthage or perish as a nation. If this means starving our armies on our other fronts from reinforcements, then so be it. If it means losing territory in the east, or even the west, then so be it. We must succeed in bringing the sons of Dido into our fold !
The conquered cities must not be pillaged more than necessary (i.e. military and auxilia buildings and slaves) and then they will provide a vital boost to our economy. Initially I suggest only conquereing the Cartheginian heartland, as the desert villages are hardly profitable conquests, but then I advise destroying Carthage as a nation completely, to stop the inevitable endless desert raids from the south. Iberia should not be greatly troubled by this expedition, as we are attacking their enemy, and contrary to many reports I've heard there is no landroute at Gibraltar to my knowledge, so Iberia will not interpret this as a new threat to her border (and besides, we already share a border with Iberia).
My main concern, really my only concern is that this is a war of conquest which will remove an enemy and provide us with a profitable new province. As my son Marcellus, who I would have backed due to his experience and age, has not changed his views from raiding to conquest, I am left with no other option but to support my grandson Servius instead.

Lastly, I would like to point out that I never said two consular armies were underway to Carthage. I even stated that this was not the case, but clearly my messages to the senate have gone unheeded by some.

OOC : Rome was great.

Tiberius Coruncanius,
Greatest apologies Elder (OOC: Miss read the current .sav files family tree), but I am sure you agree that at this time our internal feud with the Aemilius’s should cease immediately. The Republic needs us united behind a strong Consul and as both were Aemilius’s we must support them as a family Elder.

Senator Lucius Aemilius,

I hope I did not imply that you had stated that two Consular armies were underway. I did not, to clarify for your honour you did not state that but neither did I state that you had. Rather only, that you had pledged that two such forces would be ready for that invasion but they are not ready whilst our future Consul is already on board ships and ready to strike.

Tis old news now and bares not taking further but I wished only to make you and the Senate aware that I would not slander you intentionally.

Carthage……now Senators, assuming that the predictions of their forces are correct that I have heard here, three perhaps four Consular armies, then it is very possible that we can defeat them.

However, we certainly DO need two Consular armies to do this. NOT because one Consular army plus the expanded Praetorian army are insufficient to destroy those armies in the field but it is rather a question of logistics.

Assume we land and immediately strike at Carthago, we take it with our usual efficiency, then we wish to move on to Hadrumentum which is now re-enforced. Do we split our Consular army significantly to garrison Carthago before marching onto Hadrumentum to face perhaps two Consular sized formations PLUS the city walls?

No, far more tactically sound to raise two Consular armies, invade and take both cities at the same time and then take apart the Carthaginian military in detail whilst safe in the knowledge that we can KEEP both cities both suppressed AND safe from a counter strike by the Carthaginians.

Currently, we do not have the coin, the population OR time to recruit that 2nd Consular army. We may have these requirements in 2 years time but not now.

We can strike against Carthage now, to a lesser extent, and keep her armies away from our own lands whilst we prepare for an invasion AND we can use the military might we have already in the Consular army I am with NOW to ensure security in the East.

All this talk of Carthage has lead us away from a more immediate problem, namely Selucia.

Ah, Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, it seems that these youngsters have forgotten the level of respect due to their elders. We of the old guard must make sure they remember the services of all those who came before them. Bah, there are some here today who never even heard the great Quintus speak! Children in the Senate...

Augustus,

I wish you great success on the battlefield in the difficult time to come but should your sword prove to be as sharp as your wit Sir, I have a butter knife you can borrow……

(OOC: :laugh4: )

You speak the truth, Augustus Verginius. It's funny how everyone is going on about the great 'crisis' Rome is in. Yeah, we have many enemies, but they are far away. Our many mighty armies have been handily defeating them in most engagements. And our terrible financial situation means that we're only making over 10000 denarii per year. Yeah, what a great crisis that is. I'll tell you what a crisis is. A crisis is when you peak over the walls of Rome and see Pyrrhus of Epirus (remember that guy?) sitting outside with an uncountable multitude of men and hundreds, maybe thousands of elephants! Well, my memory isn't what it used to be, but I think that's how it was. Sure, they read about the battle, and think, "ok, some guy named Quintus defeated some Greek army." Yeah, that's happened many times since. What they don't realize is what a weak state Rome was in, and how close it came to perishing completely! It's because of men like Quintus that a "crisis" can mean that we can only undertake one major invasion at a time! Not three, it's a crisis! Run for your lives!!

Senator Manius Coruncanius,

I am pleased to see our differences reconciled and I applaud your efforts to unite the senate behind the next first consul.
I am of course aware of the Seleucid threat, but we can gain no victory in the East. If the situation warrants it, I even recommend withdrawing from the East so as to concentrate on our offensive against Carthage. It is best to strike hard at the hornet's nest then to continue to swat at single hornets.
When Rhodes is taken, I recommend that the first consul makes peace with the Ptolemaic empire, and if possible, forges an alliance with them. It is clear that the Ptolemaic empire is losing ground to the Seleucid empire (sotto voice : as I predicted, Tiberius Coruncanius), and if they are crushed then the Seleucid empire will become nigh unstoppable.
I also recommend that the first consul orders Titus Vatinius to crush the numerous bands of brigands than are plundering our Greek and Illyrian provinces.

OOC : I see that I incorrectly blamed econ21 for using his auguries. My sincere apologies for jumping the gun there.