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I don't get your point, my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
It was never my intention to let the Gallic gentleman get that far and he never did. But in case he would, Cordoba could look after itself and recruit all sorts of troops - bar one or two heavier type units that have to come from castle Toledo, which is nearby.
¡Olé! :nice:
Just deploring the laborious travel times associated with Spain. Despite having an area about the same, map-wise, as France, it can take 5-6 turns for infantry to cross because of the circuitous routes. Moreover, it is choked with little bottle-necks necessitating the constant removal of bandits just to get from point A to point B.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
My comment was a snide aside that only cavalry had the requisite speed. I always find that annoying as cavalry only armies always feel like a bit of a "cheat" to me.
Historically - and that is what counts most for this player - the small cavalry band was a frequent sight on the continent's muddy roads. Small bands of heavy cavalry would be sent out for all sorts of duties: escort, spying, tax collection, mail delivery, and of course dealing with banditry. A small band of knights on horseback would take usually care of highwaymen, assorted rebels and any unruly peasantry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
For larger engagements (such as you mentioned) it would have been unthinkable for knights to take to the road without at least as small host of footmen, squires, carriers, various minor vassals, and preferably some light horsemen for reconnaissance. That's why I always have my fighting family members and generals accompanied by a unit of peasants. There is nothing in the rules or fighting mechanics that prescribes this, it is just one of those personal quirks of mine calcalated to enhance the 'historical feel' of my game. And you are right that the game forces you to think ahead when dealing with the Iberian peninsula. However, this applies to all parties, including the vile French who always want Pamplona and of course the perfidious English who seem to always land an army near Leon in breach of any alliance you struck with them.
Historically, knights would literally hide behind their footmen until they saw a chance to charge successfully at the enemy. Often these footmen would form a closed circle in which their lord could recover between engagements. I am of course talking of the heyday of medieval warfare, the War of Bouvines &cetera, which was almost uniquely a heavy cavalry affair. The 'early' game in M2TW reflects this aspect nicely, in that any heavy cavalry unit makes short shrift of every infantry unit in the game, even the heaviest, as long as you keep charging and avoid a stationary fight.
We often complain like spoilt brats about historical or technical deficiencies in our games, but we should acknowledge and praise such perfectly correct aspects as well.
I just typed something and it all got deleted D:.
So to cut it short I'd like to know if this army sounds good.
6 Tercio Pike men(I was thinking of using them like spear militia, should i be doing this?)
5 Sword and buckler men(Are these that good? Or should i use different infantry?)
4 Gendarmes
3 Pasive crossbowmen
General's unit
Siege unit
Thanks, adal8or.
It depends on what you want to use that army for, amigo. If you want to lay siege to a fortress or city the Tercio are practically useless and so are the pavise crossbowmen. But if you need to confront a horsey nation (such as the French) in the field, the Tercio might be a good proposition. Personally I despise the Sword and Buckler Men. They are totally useless if you ask me. Prolly something wrong with their morale stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by adal8or
Jinetes, dismounted feudals and upgraded spears ftw.
I'm not quite so against the S&B guys as Adrian, but by the time you can employ them, you should be getting enough of an economy where you can buy the chivalrics instead. I do like sword and buckler militia guys for town defense alongside spears though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
In games, however, I don't spend a lot of time creating ideal armies. I like a mix of sword and spear backed by bow and a good cavalry punch for the moment of crisis. Feudals, and spears work pretty well for that throughout the game.
Thanks for the help. I did a few custom battle and found that I'm probably gonna replace alot of stuff with chivalrics. I do happen to be facing the french whom if i hadn't hesitated to save and attack when the pope warned me with excommunication could have crushed. But i didn't and now their cities are building up garrisons again and they have some scary armies roaming the field. To make matters worse the English also attacked but got fended off by my pretty jinettes. I thought the English had weak military until i saw an almost full stack army in northern french territory. Funny how the French are 'bankrupt' yet are making more armies.
Garrisons are really annoying for me; I attack a city, win and then am left wondering what units to leave behind for garrison and whether to send the remnants of my army to get retrained or to attack with a damaged half stack. I'm thinking of building 2 Jinette+knight stacks for territory defense on the frontline as they seem to work well picking of half stacks trying to form into a 2 stack army. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Adal8or.
Basically all we have been saying is: make your own game. The beauty of the TW series is that they allow you to do so. You can blitz and stretch the margins of historic believability to the utmost. You can also play a 'historic game' by divising extra rules for yourself, which is what I do. My Early armies for instance are always a mix of 'historically correct' units like heavy cavalry, peasants and low quality missiles. I almost never destroy cities or kill prisoners of war. My Spanish armies are spear-heavy, my English armies missile-heavy, my French armies are horse-laden and my Italian armies are crossbow-stacked. And I seldom blitz because blitzing is a twentieth century concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by adal8or
Btw your garrisons shouldn't be a problem. You have free upkeep of spears and missile troops according to the size of the city. They are actually quite good for defense, provided that you add some heavier troops if and when you see a siege coming. Sally forth, draw the enemy into the range of your bows and (ballista or gun) towers and watch them burn and die.
I usually solve the problem of decimated elite units by moving them into small stacks that follow my main armies. If a unit in my main army is severely damaged, I give it a 'refill'. This is a good way to create full veteran units with high xp, and it bypasses the elaborate retraining process. I never destroy decimated units or mix them with inexperienced troops. As you probably know sp is particularly important for the weak spear units that some factions have even in Late.
Ok thanks.
I reloaded the save I made before deciding to get excommunicated thinking i might as well try and get a ceasefire and attack the moors who seem to be a smaller faction. They didn't accept of course even after they were excommunicated. For some reason i offered a ceasefire after they attacked my jinette unit outside Angers which was just randomly standing there and their and one of their princes got killed along with a half-full stack army including angers full garrison i think. They accepted this ceasefire but if I had have carried on, and I'm not sure why I didn't, they'd probably have been pwnt.
So now I've taught the French not to wage war with me I'm planning on somehow restocking my army in Toulouse(Or was it Bordeaux?) and moving it out while preparing small garrisons for everywhere and having one full stack army patrolling my territory for defense. Then I've got to build up a economy a little and roll out 2 or 3 armies to Moorish territory I think. YAYY
Thanks, adal8or.(Random telling of my war plans here is unnecessary isn't it? Sorry if it is)
Why not? This is da place for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by adal8or
Between the two of them, Pamplona and Toulouse should give you more than enough access to high-grade units. You might turn Bordeaux into a city to make more monneh and/or grab Rennes for the same reason.. Just a suggestion, all depends on your situation of course.
Thanks.
I didn't save up to where I got in this because I was a little peeved but oh well.
All was going well and all of a sudden I notice 2 or 3 of almost full stack milanese armies. Now I'm getting pretty scared as Milan were allied with France and probably got peeved when I attacked France even though i gave them a ceasefire. Eventually a small army of spear militia I was moving to Toulouse (yes it was Toulouse I captured from the French I think) got attacked by a Milanese army and managed to retreat to Toulouse.
Now Toulouse had about a full stack garrison and got sieged by an almost full stack Milanese army with another Milanese army roaming about the field near my territory but I felt fairly safe.
I restocked my Jinette army which now had a 9/10 star commander which was full stars when doing night time attacks. The Milanese army ran away when he saw me coming and i got his other army. Now the Milanese were begging me for a ceasefire after i just pwnt their almost full stack army and was chasing after another (This feels good :P).
But i needed siege armies, not that this would have been a problem except the Scottish who were at war with the English (English were at war with the French too now O_O) for some reason sent this huge naval fleet near the shores of Leon and dropped a just about full stack army off and attacked this mailed knight unit I'd sent out to scout. After that the Scottish full stack disappeared into their ships and didn't come out for a while. Funny how they were at war with the English and some other factions too i think yet threw a full stack army at me whom had never really even seen their territories.
Anyway, the bloody Moors had 2 of those Iman thingies near Cordoba which i owned so i ended up having 3 or 4 priests including a cardinal i think down there trying to stop them converting Cordoba and causing a riot. Even though my guys outnumbered them Cordoba eventually went to the rebels with an almost full stack defense. This put my income is minuses and I just had an ah *you know* this moment.
I had 70k or so in my coffers but oh well, I had no real armies to take Cordoba back and I couldn't be bothered.
Thanks, adal8or.
At the mo im playing as the spanish on M/M difficultly and i played and managed to mess up history a huge amount(a butterfly effect sorta) I played and took valencia and i focused on making as much money as possible and getting crossbows, spears and mailed knights to fight in wars. I married one princess to the scicilian family and another to the portugese. This is where things started getting odd. The ports attacked zaragoza but failed just and i managed to hop in and take it. Next the pope demands i go take jerusalem and go over there and manage to build a huge empire there(gaza,antioch,aleppo,damascus, adana and jedda).
After this i decided to send marchants to aleppo and antioch and made 1000s from merchant trade(most i ever got was 1063 per turn from one bloke). Scicily however took all of north africa over apart from the egytpian lands, timbuktu area and marrakesh. The portugese took over half of france and wales. The byzantines actally reduced the turks to 2 castles and a city in eastern turkey and for 50 years since owning the middle east and most of iberia the only lands i took were marrkesh and granada until gunpowder was invented. The mongols have popped up and decided to go around killing everybody, however the good news is i managed to kill their faction leader and his 2 eldest sons(i have Inn and theives guild HQ in jerusalem) before they attacked then they decided to go north instead because my cities have ballista towers and many ballistas(i choose to lure them towards the walls with ballistas then shoot them down from my walls.) and now its 1254 and i am the richest empire and one turn away from recruiting my first bombards.(how much fun).
My war plans are to sit spears at the front, swords at flanks, knights at back and missile in the middle.
Shoot them down for as long as possible and send cavalry to repeatadly charge their light infantry and missles.
thanks
Playing M/M with timescale=1.0 (400 turn campaign, I tried playing with timescale=0.5 as Venetians, and I completed the game without gunpowder being invented, or the New World being discovered)
I'm having a hell of a time, I took all of Iberia and Portugal within the first few turns, just went all-out and decided Portugal must NOT be its own independent nation, and I figured Gibraltar would be easier to defend. France went to war with me almost right away (Once I took Portuguese settlement in Galatia).
At this point I have been excommunicated (for something stupid, I did a normal cease and desist, but apparently holding my forces at a siege causes the pope to excommunicate me (but doesn't do it for AI factions?)), I captured Tunis when the Pope first calls a crusade for it (capturing it before the Papal states does). I have conquered all the way to Normandy and hold 3/4 of all Gaul. Weakening France allowed Milan to grow as the #1 power (vying with me), and keeps sending stacks and stacks of Geneose Crossbow with DFK at Bordeaux, and now England and France keep going after Caen and Normandy. But apparently its Tunis thats caused my biggest problem. Apparently the Pope keeps acting like a 4 year old child with a temper tantrum "I want it I want it I want it!" and launched a crusade after me. The bug causing no AI to lose crusading units allowed about 7 different factions to HOLD Crusading armies just outside of Tunis, and when they finally starting sieging, are sieging one after another. I'm still working through an English siege right now, but Milan is next I think.
Otherwise I'm ddoing great, I took over the two smallish Italian Islands as well as Sicily, and am expanding south to Africa (my merchants are making close to 1000K each at the gold, and about 600k at the ivory, and about 400k at the slaves), and the southern tip of the Italian peninusula. I just very well might knock the pope out if he keeps this up. But I'll probably lose Tunis, that many stacks of Crusading armies will probably be my downfall.
I started playing just last week, and after a few Calvin's Wagon style runs (wherein I screw everything up but learn a bunch in the process), I ended up with a strategy that works great.
CrusadeAgainstYourEnemies basically has it right, though I ignored developing the initial king in favor of developing Vaasco and the Prince instead. Perhaps it's just bad luck, but I've never had the king live for more than 30-40 turns after the game starts.
I started out by building churches and as many priests as I could. Priests are the absolute cornerstone to Spain's game, and I was maxed out on my agent number for as long as I could be. The priests went to the Moorish lands in Ilberia to make seed the land for invasion and to keep the Moors reeling. I also built a trio of Diplomats and started them walking down to Tunis, Rome, and some Danish land. I used my princesses to seal the early Trade Rights and Map Exchange deals to give them some easy +Charm, then sealed a marriage alliance with France. The other Princess was married off to a random event noble who had Fertile and Fair Fighter - I like Chivalry characters over Dread ones for Spain, since Spain is at its best when crusading and I'd prefer not to fight my characters' maturation.
After my initial armies were organized (2-3 units of Spearmen and Archers + 1-2 units of Knights, plus a crop of 4-6 Town Militia to hold captured territory), I built a Brothel, an Inn, and a Port in Leon, cranked the tax rate up to very high, and had the prince leave the place to avoid getting corrupted. Leon then started stamping out Spies and Assassins, whom I used very liberally while Alfonso was still King, training them by spying on rebels and assassinating nameless Captains. He quickly got the Spymaster and Assassin Master retinues, and I moved him into Leon so he could train all my new agents at a cutthroat price. During these few turns, I also built a couple Cogs, that I used to block off the land bridge to north Africa. I kept them reinforced throughout.
I ignored Valencia and Zaragosa entirely. The Portugese are weak enough that even if they do take Valencia, you can usually retake it without a lot of issue. I instead focused fire on the Moors from the very beginning. The Moors have an impressive starting base and will become extremely powerful if you let them sit, but they begin the game disorganized and off balance. I took advantage of this and went straight for their lands with the Prince and Vaasco. I won easy victories against tiny garrisons, and thanks to the influence of my multitude of Priests, the cities stayed mine. I personally used my now 4/5 skill Spies to infiltrate the cities and open the gates, but a battering ram would have worked great too. Meanwhile, my Assassins killed any Imams and Diplomats they could get their hands on to facilitate the conversion and keep the Moors from unexpectedly getting help.
By turn 20, the Moors were pushed off the Ilberian peninsula and they could not reinforce because of my Cog blockade. I converted Granada into a Town (in fact, every Ilberian settlement except Spain's initial castle was a Town by the time I got done with it). The Portugese had utterly failed to take either rebel town, so I went ahead and took them both. They were easy victories with my armies awash in cash from the two new Towns, though I did manage to simply assassinate El Cid - I had a 6-skill Assassin with a Young Accomplice, and got lucky on a 30% gamble. A few turns later, I station armies at both of Portugal's settlements and use Spies to open the gates, wiping out Portugal in one turn. Again, battering rams would've worked just as easily. I might not have been able to get very GOOD units this early in the game, but there were plenty of them to get the job done.
With Ilberia firmly under my control, I finally started building Merchants and sent most of my Assassins, Spies, and Priests down into North Africa to keep the Moors off balance - kept a few up in Ilberia to guard against heresy or a merchant attack. My Priests had gotten big Piety bonuses from converting entire regions from Islam, and leaving the Rebel factions there for a while meant that they had the chance to spawn a few Heretics for my Priests to smite. Consequently, I had 4 Cardinals at this point, so when the Pope died I was a shoo-in to control the Vatican.
With a Spanish Pope in Rome and my faction riding high, I gathered up all my generals that were below 40 and requested a Crusade on the region just west of Tunis (the name escapes me right now). My request was granted, and my men went crazy buying mercenaries. The Moors were struggling to even keep civil order in their towns now with my Priests' meddling and my Assassins constantly killing Imams and blowing buildings up, so when two armies full of Crusaders thundered across the land bridge it was over before it started.
I came away with 4 Grand Crusader generals and 2 more regions. I would've continued on to Tunis, but Sicily had sniped it away. It scarcely mattered. with only 2 castles and a heavy focus on trade buildings, I was awash in cash. Plus, I'd had a Diplomat down there for a long time, far away from the capitol, so he'd picked up Translator and a Foreign Dignitary. On top of his skill modifiers, he had 8 Influence, so I was able to purchase Tunis peacefully for 9000 florins over 3 turns. Then I decided I needed another castle up north, so I purchased Bordeux from the French for 7000 florins outright. About every 10 turns I'd buy another area for a while. Central Europe was basically always fighting, so I seemed to be the only guy with money.
It's turn 80 now in the game, and I tried to pull the 'crusade and hold' trick again when the Pope called for Antioch to be taken, but the much further distance meant that I'm not able to hold too much land with the short time limit Crusades give me. Doesn't matter, though; I'm about to wipe out Egypt, and Rebels will be easier to crush on my way back. The only other major threat is the Mongols. Milan decided they wanted a piece of me and are being very annoying by blockading the hell out of my ports, but I'm so dug in by this point that unless they were to show up with a full army stack of relatively decent units I'm in no real danger. Just finishing up building an assault force of Chivalric Knights and their Dismounted brothers before I go clean some Milanese clock.
I hardly ever use the dis Chivalric or Chivalric knights myself,as I usually have mailed ,or feudal knights with at least 3 silver chevrons by then. Experience comes fast when they escort my 10 jinettes around the map,cleaning up what's left after the javelins have stopped coming.
I've had numerous times when the french have tried to invade Zaragosa/Cordoba and my jinette army just managed to interecept them before they laid siege,as due to the fact that they had been including dis feudal knights in there armies, I didn't really see my garrison lasting very long if they laid siege.Quote:
You'd better learn to love Jinettes -- they're the only thing that can get around that mis-happen Peninsula before the area in question has been smashed.
Favourite Faction, stuff Venice. :)
Spain has the best selection of units in the game IMHO. Great Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry....Those Conquistatores are great units....Possibly the best heavy infantry and the mounted ones are great too.
Only one thing I wish to change, those damn Conquistatores units, why do they have to be recruited in the Americas. :furious3: (Historical correct but damn...)
Chivaric knights can form your main line for 9/10 of your long campaign, so there still plenty to choose.
I very much enjoyed Spain. You start with three generals, and two princesses. So that means you'll be able to pick up two more generals soon! Hopefully.
The position is good. Toledo is a great defensive strong point, and Leon will be an important city. You should cut off Portuguese expansion in Iberia immediately. Take Saragossa before they do, and if they go for the only other nearby settlements in France, oh well... Not your problem. Then take Valencia. Valencia will make your defensive grip on Iberia even stronger. The Moors will be hard pressed to defeat the Spanish with a frontier like you have now at this point.
Once these conquests are finished, I suggest making ready to expel the Moors. You are a Spanish king, and must finish the Reconquista! Which reminds me, I hope you were sending your priests into Moorish Spain. It's a great way to gain Cardinals and a good way to get a future Pope. Not to mention it improves your favor with the Pope. Hopefully you can call a Crusade. I recommend Cordoba. It'll be an easy crusade for sure. But do you really want to let his Majesty the Pope call one out in the Levant? You deserve this Spain. You're the only really good faithful Catholic monarchy out there. Right? (Heh heh.) I like to get the Pope's help early on supporting my Reconquista anyhow. If you were already going to do it, why not improve your relation with the Pope by carrying out a Crusade and taking advantage of the bonuses that provides? If you're lucky, you might even get a Knights of Santiago base.
Once Cordoba is taken care of you need Grenada. It's unthinkable to allow the Moor's a fortress in Spain. They must be thoroughly removed from Iberia. With them gone, your grip on Iberia is undisputed. Portugal remains greatly diminished in it's capacity to fight for Iberia, and you have them firmly in check. Reinforce your position, and I allow Portugal to attack me, so the Pope doesn't get after me. But they usually take their time... and that's fine. Why they do that, you can take the islands of Sardinia and Corsica! Or you could continue going after the Moors. (I usually don't. Might as well save em for future crusades right?) I recommend staying on the Pope's good side and taking advantage of calling crusades whenever you can. Another good thing about not destroying the Moors is that you can send all those clergy into North Africa to keep a constant generation of Spanish Cardinals. If you are on good terms with the Pope, or the Pope came from your lands, or most of the Cardinals are from your land.... you're in a great situation. XD
I recommend building lots of Jinettes. :D They're fast, great at flanking, ranged, and their missiles are great at taking down better armored units. They're competent fighters, have good stamina, and just in general are a great cavalry unit. You also get good Skirmisher infantry, Almugavars that can fight well and are armed with armor piercing missiles. Spain also gets good swordsmen, in the late game you get good pikes, and of course firearms! (as well as Pavise crossbowmen who will be useful for a long time and available earlier.) And great cannon. Not to mention great cavalry!
They offer a fun campaign and great units! ^_^
Which reminds me, if you prefer Orange, you should play the Moors. Cause they get many of the same units, with a much different flavor! But the Moor's and Spain both have proven to be very re-playable campaigns for me. :D
OK, so I'm a little late on the whole TW bandwagon but finally picked up M2 and after playing around for a little bit to get the hang of things, I've settled into an M/M long campaign with Spain.
As many others have seemed to have gone, my first move was to head to Zaragoza with Vaasco. The Portuguese tried and failed, so I nipped in and took my first region. Meanwhile I sent my princesses off to set up trade rights and alliances with Portugal and France, before directing them further into mainland Europe.
I regathered my troops and headed for Valencia and El Cid. A pretty decent force awaited me, but with some freshly recruited Mailed Knights reinforcing from Toledo, I took it with not too many casualties.
All this time I'd been constantly building trade improvements in Leon and subsequently Zaragoza, and we were bringing in a decent amount of income. Furthermore alliances were set up with Milan and the Moors, but only if they gave me a few thousand florins each. This gave us a pretty healthy bank balance, at which point I came into contact with the English. With plenty of money already in our pockets, I decided to see how much they'd want to take Caen off their hands. Just a few thousand, might as well I thought. I wasn't going to kid myself, it was a very isolated territory and I probably wouldn't hold it for ever, but it was a decent size town and it would repay the purchase fee within a handful of turns.
Similarly I came across the Silicians, who can captured Tunis. They only wanted 2000 for it, so still rolling in money I obliged. Next the Venetians, how about buying Tripoli off them? What's that, they'll give me it for free in return for an alliance? OK!
Time to consolidate, I had plenty of money but my army was a bit thin and my lands were stretched to say the least. The Portuguese had taken Cordoba and Bordeaux and needed dealing with. They tried to strike first, eyeing up Zaragosa but I sallied out and kept them at bay. Their treacherous was looked upon with disgust by the Pope, who swiftly excommunicated them.
Now it was time to strike the Portuguese. First Pamplona, with their forces busy in France, we caught them by surprise and the castle fell all too easily. Next, a quick phonecall to the Pope and he ordered a crusade against poorly-defended Cordoba. Back in Normandy however, the English had finally grown impatient enough and wanted Caen back. I was in no position to defend it, with just one mailed knight and a few spear militia, against a pretty full and varied stack. Never mind, sometimes you just have to take a step backward to move forward. At least it resulted in the English being excommunicated.
Cordoba fell with barely a fight, and I turned the majority of this army towards Lisbon. Defended by just the king and some catapults, it too proved no match.
So that's where I stand at present. Iberia bar Granada (the obvious next target) is united under the Spanish flag, with the two African colonies proving nice outposts and bases for quick access to the Holy Land. The Portuguese are on their knees with only a castle left. We've got the Moors cornered with just three regions and Granada is cut off from the other two. Surprisingly the French have remained allied throughout so far, though I think they've been pretty occupied keeping the Milanese and HRE at bay.
Recent return to MTW II, read through most of this thread pretty carefully but apology if I skimmed and missed the answer to this question which is:
Did anyone ever figure out how much it took to bribe El Cid?
Inspired to try, I console-cheated in over 6 million F and tried with a level one diplomat. El Cid was insulted that I doubted his loyalty and honor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoil The Mighty