The French Presidential contest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

The disagreement about Iraq has always been presented by France to America as 'disagreement within a mature friendship'. The disagreement part is clear, but then so should the friendship part be.
Below top-level, Franco-American relathions are pretty solid. In Afghanistan, the WoT, Lebanon. And more importantly in the daily transfer of goods, people, capital and ideas across the Atlantic. These have been pretty much untouched in the last few years. But that is not enough, relations need to be repaired more fundamentally. Now would be a good time, America has moved on from the darkest years of the Bush presidency, yet feels itself isolated and unloved. It's time to show some friendship - let us not forget that the world is far, far more hostile towards America than America is to the world. I am entirely fed up with anti-Americanism. 'America is a bad civilisation', 'America has got no culture', 'Americans are loud, abrassive, sneaker wearing, gum-chewing, ignorant, trigger-happy Jesus freaks', '9/11 served them right, VT served them right'.
Gah! For too long have I believed it is anti-Bushism, anti-capitalism, anti-globalism. It is not, it is an enduring, pervasive hatred that is not related to the actions of the hated object, but, like anti-semitism, mirrors the hating subject.

Two events made me decide not to stand for it anymore. The first was reading Bernard-Henri Lévy, who showed me how to be anti-anti-American. The second was when I was having a cup of coffee with this girl. She was at a loss for a conversational topic. She could've started one about her study, or about my beautiful eyes and manly body or any other subject girls I know have smalltalk about. But no. Out of the blue, for no apparant reason whatsover, she said: 'I hate the Americans'. Literally. This opened my eyes. What kind of conversation starter is that? Why is that normal?
Right then and there I decided to not stand for anti-Americanism anymore. Well no, the next day I did because I really wanted to land her into my bed first. At which I hopelessly failed.
Which, come to think of it, could be the real reason why I dislike anti-Americanism this much. Hmmm.....

---

From one american to one frenchmen let me say that the majority of the people in my social circle (middleclass voter types 30+) dont think much about France or Europe for that matter.

I am happy that France has stayed to the right and hope you rebuild your republic, but for my two cents and for a silent numerous few here in the states we would prefer you direct your energies at solidifying the EU constitution and becoming a super power in your own right (well sell you plenty of weapons have no fear).

I respect your opinion, your very level headed. When I was in france last in 98I was travelling with an englishmen, and a Belgian, the englishmen bore the brunt of the abuse and the french I dealt with didnt give me a hard time, or the time of day.

France has an opportunity to really rechange its economy and get back in line with the EU, a closer relationship to the U.S. isnt necessary because as you mentioned the percieved deteriation of the relationship was primarily at the senior "presidential level". The antiquated alliance structure that was in place for the Cold war is still in place and functioning okay (see afghanistan).

I dislike anti french/europe as much as you seem to dislike anti american, but alas, it seems to be the EU side that wants the marriage to continue on more so then the U.S. side, a lot of us are willing to move on, learn from the relationship and wish everyone the best, the slate clean.

Evidence based on a prediction: In the run up to the U.S. election "France" and the EU as a whole will be a minimal very bottom level issue, on the flip side, the french election, and the English PM situation will have the "U.S." relationship a little higher on its docket.

I think we should continue to work as best we can on mutually beneficial subjects, but perhaps its best to let the U.S. go and meander in sadness of being unloved. I promise we will be okay, the chinese adore us and our consumption anyway. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Yeah, we got one last year. And telephones the year before. Next year, plumbing.

:beam:

---

Don't forget air conditioning. It was unbelievably hot last summer. :beam:

Congratulations to M Sarkozy.

Are you allowed to gossip about his marriage now?

:devil:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Oy, I really need to remember to proof my posts for content,

---

Oh relax. Come on, you know what I'm like, I post...stuff. I knew what you meant. ~;)

Besides, I still need to get even for you backstabbing me Capo di tutti Capi.:smash:

The CAC 40 is part of the Euronext stock exchange nowadays. They have a multi-lingual website. It looks rather technical though.
I really don't know where to get French business news in English. It must be around somewhere on the web. Agence France-Presse is a comprehensive news agency, France24.com is good for general news. Both provide full English service.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Congratulations to M Sarkozy.

Are you allowed to gossip about his marriage now?

:devil:

---

His first or his second? :smartass2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Congratulations to M Sarkozy.

Are you allowed to gossip about his marriage now?

:devil:

---

Did they find Cécilia yet then?

Word is that Royal and Hollande are not together anymore either, they were just pretending to be for the time being. But we'll have to wait for revelations in the Swiss presse, French reporters are usually too timid too ask questions - followed by them priding themselves on not being 'intrusive'.

Here's Royal and Hollande, when they were still a happy couple, preparing for the presidency by reading 'History of France for dummies' :beam: :


http://static.flickr.com/117/314161243_064c4ae74d_o.jpg

good result for the UK, we are more likely to get our aircraft carriers now. :2thumbsup:

I really never thought that in such a negatively charged environment that I could learn so much about and come to respect a country I formerly despised. I'll call it the French/Backroom paradox :book: . I guess two negatives can form a positive.

I think the epiphany first formed when it was implied that France revels in the disdain of others I thought: Brilliant! :idea2: The whole attitude thing shows that they still have so much symbolic, if not military, power they have over the world. I felt like such a tool :shame: .



Now, time for the French vodka and deserts. :barrel:

Yay Sarkozy!

his first order of business needs to be hosing down the social underclass that thinks it can riot and destroy property everytime something upsets them. And by hose down I mean hose down.

Louie your eyeopening comes from a love of me and nothing more :kiss:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

his first order of business needs to be hosing down the social underclass that thinks it can riot and destroy property everytime something upsets them. And by hose down I mean hose down.

---

How soon will he catch a bullet if he tries this?

A very questionable source(she didn't even know he won, and she wants to move to France) claims that Sarkozy's election will trigger massive strikes across France. Now while this hasn't happened yet, I ask our respected French members is this likely to even happen? And if this does happen, what will Sarkozy do about it?

Here's a fascinating breakdown of the voting patterns in the election.

It appears that Sarko owes the Elysee Palace to a lot of grumpy old shopkeepers - and that the generation which is prevalent here in the Org voted largely for Mme Royal.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

French electorate splits into two tribes of young and old

By John Lichfield
Published: 08 May 2007

A typical Sarkozy voter was a male shopkeeper in his sixties in a rural town in eastern or southern France. A typical Royal voter was a young woman student in a west or south-west city.

The sociological and regional division of France into the tribes of "Sarko" and "Ségo" is fascinating - and defies some of the conventional wisdom about the presidential campaign.

Mme Royal, the Socialist candidate, dismissed by the Right as the candidate of the past, scored heavily among the young and the middle-aged (with the exception of those aged 25 to 34). In an election restricted to French voters aged 18 to 59, Mme Royal would have won handsomely. M. Sarkozy owes his victory to a "wrinkly" landslide with an overwhelming triumph among French voters in their sixties (61 per cent of the vote) and a jackpot among the over-seventies (68 per cent).

The centre-right candidate promised to put France "back to work" and create a new, more dynamic future. His greatest appeal - paradoxically - was to people over retirement age. They were swayed not by his promises of a New France but his appeals to the "moral" values of an Old France, and especially his tough rhetoric on crime, immigration and national identity.

The regional breakdown is also fascinating. Mme Royal topped the poll in a group of départements [counties] in central and south-west France and Brittany. She also won in two of the suburban départements east of Paris and in the Pas de Calais. "Ségoland" in the west and south-west coincides roughly with her own fiefdom in Poitou-Charente and the traditional left-wing bastions of Brittany and the south-west. But her territory also covers some of France's most dynamic and forward-looking cities such as Toulouse, Nantes and Rennes.

M. Sarkozy did well in Normandy and the north but he picked up his largest scores - up to 68 per cent of the vote - in the former far-right bastions of Alsace and the Côte d'Azur. "Sarkoland" covers two thirds of France but its heartlands are the permanently reactionary and "grumpy" départements along France's eastern borders.

In sociological terms, the vote was relatively predictable. Mme Royal won among students, public-sector employees, blue-collar workers and the unemployed. M. Sarkozy won among private-sector employees, small businessmen, professionals, farmers and the managerial classes. He won an absolute landslide - 82 per cent - among shop-keepers and small tradespeople who suffer from the highly-taxed and bureaucratic French economy.

According to an Ipsos poll, M. Sarkozy won among both men and women. Mme Royal did better (48 per cent) among women than men (46 per cent). The generational schisms revealed by the poll are striking. The "internet" generation of 18- to 24-year-olds voted 58 per cent for Mme Royal. The 25- to 34-year-olds voted 57 per cent for M. Sarkozy. The "May 1968"- Mitterrand generation of 45- to 59-year-olds voted 55 per cent for Mme Royal. The 35 to 44 generation split 50-50.

Discovery1, I heard from one of my friends at school that, while there weren't any strikes as such yet, there have been a dozen dustbin fires and a few burned cars as well. And that would have been where I live, which is the Regional capital of Franche-Comté. It's not a big town, but if something happened here, then what could happen in Paris?

Also, I believe Sindicates have said they would go on strike in the case of a Sarkozy victory. This being written two days after the election, and when Sarko "technically" isn't president, they probably didn't have time yet to do something.

And, remember the riots from only a couple of years ago. That would be Sarko's major danger for now - at least that's the way I see it. The last thing he'd want is a repeat of those events.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo

It appears that Sarko owes the Elysee Palace to a lot of grumpy old shopkeepers - and that the generation which is prevalent here in the Org voted largely for Mme Royal.

---

If you're not a socialist when you're young, you have no heart.

If you're still a socialist when you're 40, you have no brain ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by discovery1

A very questionable source(she didn't even know he won, and she wants to move to France) claims that Sarkozy's election will trigger massive strikes across France. Now while this hasn't happened yet, I ask our respected French members is this likely to even happen? And if this does happen, what will Sarkozy do about it?

---

I heard from a German student here that a French friend of hers said Sarkozy and his buddies were like nazis and that there was going to be a civil war. Now I could be wrong with my judgement, but I'm pretty sure she's about as bleeding heart liberal as people get so I wouldn't really read too much into that and instead just sit back and watch what happens.

Today I heard that there are people protesting in more or less violent ways and that some leaders said they shouldn't oppose a majority vote. Those leaders may have a point.:inquisitive:

Civil war I think may be exagerated.
Riots is possible - Sarkozy said he wasn't the President of Two divided Frances but of One France. That was a clear mistake, considering the 53% who voted for him. I guess we'll see.
A few things to remember are:
-Segolene was a woman. Tragically, even here there are sexists who will have voted Sarko just because she's a woman.
-She did quite a few mistakes during her campaign. Just a few stupidities, but some people may have analysed the behaviour of the candidates during the campaigns. Hers wasn't the best, in my humble opinion.
-Some people may not have voted. I don't know the amount of people who haven't, but it could have been high enough to switch the results.
-There are still the Legislative elections in a month. This I believe is most important, because from those results depend the future Prime Minister.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenring

If you're not a socialist when you're young, you have no heart.

If you're still a socialist when you're 40, you have no brain ~;)

---

good quote.

i have no heart tho. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenring

If you're not a socialist when you're young, you have no heart.

If you're still a socialist when you're 40, you have no brain

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Furunculu5

good quote.

i have no heart tho. :(

---

It is a good quote, though it casts me as a heartless imbecile. :embarassed:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Here's a fascinating breakdown of the voting patterns in the election.

---

It is fascinating, isn't it. That the retired, shopkeepers, rural areas vote conservative and than students and youngsters progressive is a given of course.

But it get's more complicated an interesting when one accepts Sarko represents the candidate for change in many respects. What part of his voters voted for his reactionary, far-right program, and which part for his liberalism and free-marketism? This is an essential question.

It is best illustrated with the breakdown into generations:
The generational schisms revealed by the poll are striking. The "internet" generation of 18- to 24-year-olds voted 58 per cent for Mme Royal. The 25- to 34-year-olds voted 57 per cent for M. Sarkozy. The 35 to 44 generation split 50-50. The "May 1968"- Mitterrand generation of 45- to 59-year-olds voted 55 per cent for Mme Royal. His greatest appeal - paradoxically - was to people over retirement age.
18-24 year olds don't have to worry too much about work yet. Sarko, in line with Fenrig's theorem, is 'Sarko facho' for this age group. He has a great score with 25 to 35 year olds, owing to his economic program. 35-45 are split.

The 1968 generation is the cause of all problems. They still think Mao is the greatest thing ever, they stay firmly put in their jobs and functions, refuse to butch an inch and oppose all change. Bah, the 'greatest generation', the ones full of progressive ideals and longing for new ways and forms when they were young are now the most reactionary element of French society - and they totally fail to see it or acknowledge it.
Sarkozy himself did nothing to endear himself to them either, he blatently called them the root of all of France's problems too. As an aside, this generation is not as young as the article or they themselves think. If you were 18 in 1968, you're 57 now, not 45.

The retired and the grumpy old men certainly voted Sarko for his being a conservative and even a Le Pen lite respectively.


Le Monde has a good geographical breakdown of the results. A map:

https://img48.imageshack.us/img48/65...lle2007ya4.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Uesugi Kenshin

I heard from a German student here that a French friend of hers said Sarkozy and his buddies were like nazis and that there was going to be a civil war.

---

Nah. Not nazis. Sarko is going to extradite illegals, wants contolled immigrantion with a preference for those with with needed skills, wants imigrants to learn French and be able to support a family before they can import one, wants a department for immigration and national identity and he will be tougher on crime.
Hurray I'd say and long overdue. If it's nazism, then so be it. And for those who hate facism so much: it is Sarkozy who finally, after three decades, destroyed Le Pen.
Sarkozy offered a democratic, legitimate alternative with this for those who are not entirely convinced of the unequivocal benefits of uncontrolled mass immigration into France. This is what obliterated the FN, and not any left-wing self-rightous outrage.

If anybody feels the urge to riot or start a civil war against racist policies, let them go to Darfur - now there's genocidal racism that needs some urgent adressing.


The real contest between Sarkozy and his opposers will be fought in the autumn, between him and the unions. Now that's going to be interesting... :grin3:

:smg: :hmg:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Louis your eyeopening comes from a love of me and nothing more :kiss:

---

Love, love....let's say I decided it was beneficial for me to stay on good terms with you ever since you directed me to the MySpace page of your sister...:gorgeous:

:sweatdrop:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Le Monde has a good geographical breakdown of the results. A map:

https://img48.imageshack.us/img48/65...lle2007ya4.png

---

So the Huguenots voted for Royal? Or am I getting my maps mixed up?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Sarkozy is scary indeed, but not like Bush. More in a Blair / Berlusconi / Hannibal Lector kind of way.

It is not a sign of weak character to declare yourself pro-American in France. Sarkozy: 'Some opponents nickname me Sarkozy l’Américain.

Of that, I'm proud'.

I wouldn't worry about France joining in in the Iraq party. There is no political will towards that whatsoever, it's entirely unfeasable. There are more options than either lapdog or vitriolic animosity.

Sarkozy shouldn't have gone to visit Bush last year, that was a mistake. In his urge too undermine Chirac, he was dangerously close to stating that Chirac made a mistake in 2003. When of course opposing the invasion was one of Chirac's best judgements of his career. It is debatable whether France went about it in the right way, but the basic decision not to invade was right.

The disagreement about Iraq has always been presented by France to America as 'disagreement within a mature friendship'. The disagreement part is clear, but then so should the friendship part be.
Below top-level, Franco-American relathions are pretty solid. In Afghanistan, the WoT, Lebanon. And more importantly in the daily transfer of goods, people, capital and ideas across the Atlantic. These have been pretty much untouched in the last few years. But that is not enough, relations need to be repaired more fundamentally. Now would be a good time, America has moved on from the darkest years of the Bush presidency, yet feels itself isolated and unloved. It's time to show some friendship - let us not forget that the world is far, far more hostile towards America than America is to the world. I am entirely fed up with anti-Americanism. 'America is a bad civilisation', 'America has got no culture', 'Americans are loud, abrassive, sneaker wearing, gum-chewing, ignorant, trigger-happy Jesus freaks', '9/11 served them right, VT served them right'.
Gah! For too long have I believed it is anti-Bushism, anti-capitalism, anti-globalism. It is not, it is an enduring, pervasive hatred that is not related to the actions of the hated object, but, like anti-semitism, mirrors the hating subject.

Two events made me decide not to stand for it anymore. The first was reading Bernard-Henri Lévy, who showed me how to be anti-anti-American. The second was when I was having a cup of coffee with this girl. She was at a loss for a conversational topic. She could've started one about her study, or about my beautiful eyes and manly body or any other subject girls I know have smalltalk about. But no. Out of the blue, for no apparant reason whatsover, she said: 'I hate the Americans'. Literally. This opened my eyes. What kind of conversation starter is that? Why is that normal?
Right then and there I decided to not stand for anti-Americanism anymore. Well no, the next day I did because I really wanted to land her into my bed first. At which I hopelessly failed.
Which, come to think of it, could be the real reason why I dislike anti-Americanism this much. Hmmm.....

---

That's got to be a French phenomenon. I've never run into any anti-American person anywhere outside France, but I've ran into many people being critical to the dangerous and naive policies of George Bush, and the philosophy "only way for USA to remain strong is to weaken all who could possibly, some time in the future, maybe become hostile towards the USA" represented by Cheney (i.e. American politicians, whereas they hold American regular people, American scientists, American authors etc in high regard) and his closest friends, and people hating the American government's view on torture and the Guantanamo concentration camp. In short I think anti-Americanism you describe must be a mostly French phenomenon.

What I find most funny is when people say Europeans can't critisize the policy of American leaders because all Europeans were ******* during the colonial era. With that logic, Americans can't critisize the policy of any muslim leader, because while the later-to-be American people were killing and mentally oppressing each others like crazy the muslims had the most sophisticated culture in the world. Besides, Switzerland, Sweden and several other European countries have followed policies of neutrality and anti-violence in the past and have indeed moral high ground since they haven't taken part in colonialism in over 350 years.

I also find your statement of America being more hurt by the world than America hurts the world quite odd. The rest of the world is not trying to resist the type of globalization and movement of companies that effectively moves much of world capital to America, and Americans have hardly suffered any casualties by actions of non-Americans other than those of 9/11, while they've started two wars in the last 10 years, which have resulted in a total of a million dead which wouldn't have died otherwise. You can't compare some third world people burning American flags for Saturday entertainment with the starting of wars that kill thousands of people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vladimir

So the Huguenots voted for Royal? Or am I getting my maps mixed up?

---

There aren't many percent Huguenots in France these days. Remember, a great deal of the Huguenots were driven out by Louis XIV, many of which settled in Prussia.

Sorry Legio, but I have to take issue here. You might be right that we started the war in Iraq, but the war in Afghanistan was started by the other guys. We just responded.

When did Afghanistan declare war? Do you call 10 Afghanistani citizens (non-officials) blowing themselves up a declaration of war from their entire nation?

They were sheltering those responsible for killing 3000 American citizens and untold millions of dollars worth of damage. They were warned to turn them over in a month and they told us to go screw ourselves. I think nobody had any right to be surprised in early October, 2001, least of all the Taleban.

And like Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that. This is wildly off topic and I do not care to dim Louis' shining moment of a thread here. :bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Sorry Legio, but I have to take issue here. You might be right that we started the war in Iraq, but the war in Afghanistan was started by the other guys. We just responded.

---

Moreover the 9/11 commando was all Saudi and Egyptian, not Afghan, my dear, and USA did not wage war on those countries. Guess why!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tristuskhan

Moreover the 9/11 commando was all Saudi and Egyptian, not Afghan, my dear, and USA did not wage war on those countries. Guess why!

---

Please could we spare at least one topic and not start on about a oil conspiracy? They were part of a group that was located in Afghanistan. The Afghanistan government choice to support that group and then defend and shelter it. No suprise what happened next.

Hopefully Sarkozy will go far to repair the US-French relations, very well put Louis. I wonder if Sarkozy will be speaking French or English at the EU though.

Quote:

---

Which, come to think of it, could be the real reason why I dislike anti-Americanism this much. Hmmm.....

---

Lets hope It was something deeper then a women. A response to a true love of Texas, and wholesome barbequed brisket.

odd how a topic regarding the french presidential contest goes off to cover the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, U.S. casualties, U.S. wars killing a million people.

:no:

Ridiculous

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

When did Afghanistan declare war? Do you call 10 Afghanistani citizens (non-officials) blowing themselves up a declaration of war from their entire nation?

---

Afganistan (The Taliban) declared war when they refused to turn of over those responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

Please stop discussing the Afghanistan topic in this thread - Don already opened a new thread to prevent this thread from going further off topic.

Thanks

:bow:

Well the blame American ticket has always been used to cover our own inadequecies, first it was blame France, then it was blame the US, when it really should have been all along, blame ourselves. But I don't think people by and large don't have the mental capacity, especially uneducated ones, to take on personal responsibility and review the facts before dealing out judgement...

Sorry Clegane...just posted before me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

There aren't many percent Huguenots in France these days. Remember, a great deal of the Huguenots were driven out by Louis XIV, many of which settled in Prussia.

---

and the UK, i have Huguenot descent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Nah. Not nazis. Sarko is going to extradite illegals, wants contolled immigrantion with a preference for those with with needed skills, wants imigrants to learn French and be able to support a family before they can import one, wants a department for immigration and national identity and he will be tougher on crime.
Hurray I'd say and long overdue. If it's nazism, then so be it. And for those who hate facism so much: it is Sarkozy who finally, after three decades, destroyed Le Pen.
Sarkozy offered a democratic, legitimate alternative with this for those who are not entirely convinced of the unequivocal benefits of uncontrolled mass immigration into France. This is what obliterated the FN, and not any left-wing self-rightous outrage.

:sweatdrop:

---

and there lies the fundamental truth!

if labour stopped pandering to every nut-job social theory and historic guilt-trip regarding race relations, then they wouldn't be losing so many votes to the BNP.

if the conservatives were not so afraid of being re-branded the "nasty party" then they would not be heamorraging votes to UKIP.

politicians, by ignoring voter issues they consider to be difficult and distateful actually encourage the spread of extreme politics.

sarko may even have scored a double whammy:
1) he has gutted support for Le-Pen by taking a tough line on immigration and execrable social behavior.
2) he has hopefully provided a clean break from the lunatic left fringe of french politics that thatcher consigned to the UK's political dustbin in the 80's.

good for sarko.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis

18-24 year olds don't have to worry too much about work yet. Sarko, in line with Fenrig's theorem, is 'Sarko facho' for this age group. He has a great score with 25 to 35 year olds, owing to his economic program. 35-45 are split.

---

Churchills theorom, actually :bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigTex

Hopefully Sarkozy will go far to repair the US-French relations, very well put Louis. I wonder if Sarkozy will be speaking French or English at the EU though.

---

A few catchy phrases aside, I don't think Sarkozy speaks English that well.

nvm plz delete

I think it's pretty silly to focus on what language the man chooses to speak. Why the EU needs one common language, and why they can't just do things UN style, is beyond me. It's a really petty argument, and if the French want to speak French at EU meetings, (what's French for more power to 'em?) By the way, speaking of banning the French language, read your passport sometime.

I think the fact that Sarkozy is willing to talk to us in any language is far more important to Franco-American relations. Last I checked, $$$ was America's first language, and from what I've seen of his proposals, Sarkozy clearly speaks that. I think the reasons for the sore feelings on both sides would be worthy of a thread unto themselves, but the important point is, friends have tiffs. Friends make up. They don't blow their make-up beers down at the corner pub arguing over who was more justified in their hurt/angry feelings, at least not if they're men. They get drunk and all is forgotten. ~:cheers:

I'm far more interested in seeing a revived French economy than I am in other areas. A strong French economy will actually help drive the EU into becoming a stronger 4th economic (USA, Japan and China being the others). Maybe in global politics, the two superpower model works best, but in global economics, the more heavyweights, the better.

Besides, France already has the inside track on how to deal with the oil crunch. One thing I've always respected about France is their pragmatism on energy resources. Only Japan gets a higher percentage of their power from nuclear energy.

Sarko! Yippee

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I think it's pretty silly to focus on what language the man chooses to speak.

---

It might does look silly for you, but not for me, and for a whole lot of people in France, in the EU case at least.
The EU is basically a franco-germanic creation, and seriously, and surrendering one of our founding language to the notably anti-EU english would basically mean that the EU has forgot everything it stood for and became a mere free-market zone (well, actually, we're pretty much there, I know, but speaking anything else than german or french, and especially english, would be the grand finale IMO).


As for the Franco-American relations, sorry, but I doubt the average french will change his mind just because Sarkozy is pro-american. We dislike the US, mostly because, as a few people (me included) explained, the average french dislike globalization and lawless capitalism, and well, the US basically represent globalization and capitalism. We also like to pretend that we're smarter and more reasonable than everyone else, and even more so than the world first power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vladimir

So the Huguenots voted for Royal? Or am I getting my maps mixed up?

---

That is a clever observation of yours. :balloon2:

With the notable exception of Brittany, the overlap between both maps is remarkable:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img48.imageshack.us/img48/65...lle2007ya4.png


http://www.colba.net/~larouche/fonda...e-hughenot.gif

For most regions and departements, the causes, the sociological and historical reasons for being progressive or conservative are mostly unrelated to the religious divide of the 16th century. Assuming you don't have any particular interest in it, I will spare myself the effort of going over them in detail.

That's not to dismiss your observation - for a city like Bordeaux for example, I can see a clear line, a continual tradition, that caused both protestantism in the sixteenth and progressiveness in the 21st century.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meneldil

It might does look silly for you, but not for me, and for a whole lot of people in France, in the EU case at least.
The EU is basically a franco-germanic creation, and seriously, and surrendering one of our founding language to the notably anti-EU english would basically mean that the EU has forgot everything it stood for...

---

What did the EU stand for?

Quote:

---

We dislike the US, mostly because, as a few people (me included) explained, the average french dislike globalization and lawless capitalism, and well, the US basically represent globalization and capitalism.

---

In regards to the globalization comment: is it your view that anti-Americanism is then a post-Cold War phenomena?

Louis the fat (and other Frenchies)

Why do you think Aquitaine and its surroundings went significantly with Royal?

AH YAY GO SARKO

Turkey ~:wave:
EU conbstitution ~:wave:

:shakehands:

Is this the end of girl power?:help: :inquisitive:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meneldil

It might does look silly for you, but not for me, and for a whole lot of people in France, in the EU case at least.
The EU is basically a franco-germanic creation, and seriously, and surrendering one of our founding language to the notably anti-EU english would basically mean that the EU has forgot everything it stood for and became a mere free-market zone (well, actually, we're pretty much there, I know, but speaking anything else than german or french, and especially english, would be the grand finale IMO).

---

While you may have a point, I don't think English was selected as the lingua franca in this case because of England itself. I think it was selected because of the percentage of people that speak it as a second language.

And I didn't mean to imply that France was being silly for wanting to speak French. I was trying to say I thought it was silly of us to think Chirac speaking French at the EU was any sort of big deal. I don't know why the French can't speak French, the Czechs can't speak Czech and so-on, and you all use translators, as they do at the UN.

As for your particular spin on Franco-American relations, I certainly hope you're wrong, or that at the very least, you're in a minority. You've essentially said that there's no possible way for France and the USA to improve relations, because you despise everything we are and everything we represent, right down to our core values, including free markets. You are correct that it's impossible to ally two socities when one feels that strongly. I just hope most of your countrymen don't feel quite so strongly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meneldil

It might does look silly for you, but not for me, and for a whole lot of people in France, in the EU case at least.
The EU is basically a franco-germanic creation, and seriously, and surrendering one of our founding language to the notably anti-EU english would basically mean that the EU has forgot everything it stood for and became a mere free-market zone (well, actually, we're pretty much there, I know, but speaking anything else than german or french, and especially english, would be the grand finale IMO).

---

I've never seen anyone claim the Community was entirely based on the desire to spite the English, and make sure French and German would stay important languages internationally :inquisitive:

The EU has 24 official languages, actually. For internal deliberation German and French (in the case of the ECJ, exclusively French in fact) are commonly used, but English as well...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

As for your particular spin on Franco-American relations, I certainly hope you're wrong, or that at the very least, you're in a minority. You've essentially said that there's no possible way for France and the USA to improve relations, because you despise everything we are and everything we represent, right down to our core values, including free markets. You are correct that it's impossible to ally two socities when one feels that strongly. I just hope most of your countrymen don't feel quite so strongly.

---

Well, what I meant is that the ambiant anti-american feeling is not going to simply disappear because our President is less willing to oppose everything US-related.
It will sound silly, but for many people here, everything bad happening in the world is caused by the US and americans. People are starving in the 3rd world because of the US, terrorism is growing because of the US. People in France are even getting fired because of american pension funds.

France is probably as responsible for all that as is the US, but it's always easier to blame someone else.

Things could have gone better after the 9/11, as it granted you much sympathy from us (France also faced islamist terrorism), but then there was Iraq and Bush' foreign policy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenring

The EU has 24 official languages, actually. For internal deliberation German and French (in the case of the ECJ, exclusively French in fact) are commonly used, but English as well...

---

Which wasn't the case before UK entered the union.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I think it was selected because of the percentage of people that speak it as a second language.

---

Well, that's it. People have to learn english because many people speak english. Do you see how screwed up is this reasoning ? I'm all in favor of everyone speaking his own language at the EU (and in fact, a lot of people speak their own language rather than french, german or english), but if we have to speak a single language, it shouldn't be english.
That doesn't mean I want everybody in the EU to speak french or german, but English is the official language of 2 countries that AFAIK are opposed to the EU.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pindar

In regards to the globalization comment: is it your view that anti-Americanism is then a post-Cold War phenomena?

---

Well, french anti-americanism is probably older than 90's. De Gaulle, who is still seen as our post-WW2 "founding father" often opposed the US. He tried to create a "third-way", and tried to take its distance with the US/USSR opposition.
Then, we have had a strong extreme-left and left. I wasn't there back then, but from what I've been said, 1968 french riots were not only anti-governement, but also anti-capitalist and anti-american.
A lot of people in France, both in the low, labour class and in the intelligentsia were more or less openly pro-USSR. When the Khmer Rouge took the power in Cambodia, many people from the left were really enthousiastic, saying the Evil-Imperalist-US has been defeated in Asia. Until they found out the Khmer Rouge were killing most of their fellow countrymen, and decided that the Khmer Rouge weren't true communists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pindar

What did the EU stand for?

---

For Robert Shumann, Konrad Adenauer, P-H Spaak, Leon Blum, Paul Reynaud and all the other who promoted the idea of an Federal Europe during the 1948 Hague Congress, I don't think a Free-market zone with no coherent policy and knowing endless rivalries and internal struggle would fit with their ideas of an united Europe.

Okay Meneldil, I get the impression I'm not coming through properly to you. I don't know if this is a language barrier, or I'm being nebulous. Let me try again.

Go to Italy. What are the percentage of Italians that speak French? German? English?

Likewise, go to Finland. Again, of everyone that speaks more than just Finnish, what is the 2nd language that most people already know?

I'm not saying we should make everyone learn English. I'm saying as far as 2nd languages go, it is already a much higher percentage than any other language. I'm talking about NOT making people learn another language, just to get along. And what's more, I'm actually not talking about it, I'm saying that's why I think the decision was made. We have the technology that everyone can speak French, German, Italian, Finnish, whatever they want and you'll all be able to understand each other. If your argument is that just to prove that the EU is a primarily French and German institution, everyone should have to learn to speak French and German... well, I don't that's the most reasonable position in the world and I don't know that you're going to get a lot of traction with that, especially when it was France itself that put the kibash on the EU constitution.

As far as Franco-American relations go, of course electing a president that gets along with Washington isn't going to immediately resolve the problems. I understand that the USA is viewed as the root of all evil in many corners of the globe, but more so than anyplace else in the salon culture of Paris. Were I to ever travel to France on holiday, I would make it a point to stick to Bordeaux, Brittany, Normandy regions. I' would actually be afraid for my personal safety in Paris. I know most Parisians don't care enough to let their animosity rise to the form of physical violence, but I also know it only takes one...

I think there's a lot that America needs to do to mend fences and a lot that France needs to do as well. If you're going to continue to blame us personally, as individuals, not just as a society, for each and every unfortunate event that happens in the world, perhaps what you're trying to say is you don't really want to mend fences. If that's the case, I don't suppose there's much we can do to help that situation. Again, hopefully you and people that feel like you do are in a minority. No offense, it's just that you sound as though you don't want the relationship to get better, and given our mutual history, I think that would be sad. I don't argue that you certainly do have some valid reasons to feel the way you do. But just as I'm not willing to let Americans around abandon the relationship and make wise-cracks about all of you, I'm not prepared to just let it all go down the drain and resign ourselves that we just don't get along. Sorry mate, you're stuck with us. ~:pat:

Being a Social Democrat I have more faith in market laws than Communists, Conservatives and other ideological surrealists. People who don't speak English will suffer an increasing comparative disadvantage in tomorrow's labour market. Those who speak English plus one or more other languages will enjoy an increasing comparative advantage over native English speakers.

Most Americans will reach the latter, more comfortable position once Spanish has become the official language of the United States. :laugh4:

You're absolutely, 100% correct Adrian. In truth, I don't think Spanish or English will be the long-run language of the USA, but a fusion of the two. One of the biggest handicaps for Americans on foreign languages is 'which one'? But your point is valid, and frankly, in my industry (electronics), yes, one can 'get by' on just English. But if you want to be in all the important conversations and not just take it on faith that the translator told you properly, you had better be able to speak some Japanese, Mandarin and German, in that order. French and Swedish would rank just below them, and while it may be obscure in most corner, Finnish would be a big help. Though most Finnish people tell me it's almost impossible for non-native Finnish people to speak Finnish fluently without living there for at least a year or two (I can think of worse places to hole up :2thumbsup: ).

It's a shame we put so much of our national identity into our language. It would be nice if we could abandon individual languages and have one. That, or we could agree on three or four worldwide, and everyone learns the same ones. From my Spanish (of which I think speak pretty well) and my Mandarin (little bit) I do know there are times when each language is the most appropriate way of making a certain nuanced point.

The English sloppiness with the word 'love' for example is painfully obtuse if you're trying to be precise, but sublimely rich when you actually want to invoke multiple meanings, simultaneously.

Meneldil; you forgot to mention that the EU was America's fault too (we helped set it up).

What you REALLY forgot was that it was the US (most notably, Woodrow Wilson) who bears the blame for setting the stage for WW II. Although we bailed out the German economy the memories were still too near and bitter.


Oh, and it's good to having a punching bag to take out your frustrations on. Just as long as you can have a drink together at the end of the day. In less you're Irish then you combine the drinking with the punching.

Or in Banquo's case: Drinking, punching, then poetry. :daisy:

There is this well-known quote: 'The English eat to live, the French live to eat'. Something similar could be said for language. English is a means of communication, French is an idea, the cumulative expression of a civilisation.
It may not hold true for the UK, but the US could swap English for Spanish tomorrow and it would still be the same country. Not so for France.

France IS her language.

It is not a matter of a more intense adherence, it is a matter of viewing language. France was founded on her language. The creation of the French nation, the state and the spread of the French language went hand in hand. The French language represents eternal France. Political systems may come and go, kings can be beheaded, republics can fall, but the language is immortal. In her language the continuity of France is represented.

France is an idea, her language her genius and temple of her virtuosity.

:knight:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

There is this well-known quote: 'The English eat to live, the French live to eat'. Something similar could be said for language. English is a means of communication, French is an idea, the cumulative expression of a civilisation.
It may not hold true for the UK, but the US could swap English for Spanish tomorrow and it would still be the same country. Not so for France.

France IS her language.

It is not a matter of a more intense adherence, it is a matter of viewing language. France was founded on her language. The creation of the French nation, the state and the spread of the French language went hand in hand. The French language represents eternal France. Political systems may come and go, kings can be beheaded, republics can fall, but the language is immortal. In her language the continuity of France is represented.

France is an idea, her language her genius and temple of her virtuosity.

:knight:

---

French was "founded" by a German. Wasn't it Louis the Bald, son of Charlie? I suppose the nationality of royalty is fairly irrelevant. Off to the guillotine with the lot of them I say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

... French is an idea, the cumulative expression of a civilisation...France IS her language.

---

Given French sounds much better when women speak it, does this then mean French Civilization is female? :kiss2: This could explain a lot.

Meanwhile back in French election land the first round of the parliamentary elections were held. SuperSarko looks set to demolish everybody in the second round, and his party (UMP) will win by a landslide. His approval rating is still going trough the roof, and he looks certain to win an absolute majority in parliament in the second round next week.

Linky

https://img209.imageshack.us/img209/...leg1ertnh3.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Meanwhile back in French election land the first round of the parliamentary elections were held. SuperSarko looks set to demolish everybody in the second round, and his party (UMP) will win by a landslide. His approval rating is still going trough the roof, and he looks certain to win an absolute majority in parliament in the second round next week.

Linky

https://img209.imageshack.us/img209/...leg1ertnh3.jpg

---

That's rarely good news.

Can I show my ignorance and ask why you need two rounds for a parliamentary election ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doc_bean

Can I show my ignorance and ask why you need two rounds for a parliamentary election ?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wiki

The system in which deputies are elected is a mix of first past the post and run-off. A candidate must take an absolute majority in their constituency to win in the first round on 10 June which is 50% of the votes and at least 25% of all registered voters. Otherwise, if they get at least 12.5% of the votes of all registered voters in the first round, or are one of the top two candidates remaining, they go through to the second round on 17 June, where only a simple plurality is needed to win. In French elections, most seats are decided in the second round where coalitions agree on a candidate in order to maximise votes.

---

Quote:

---

That's rarely good news.

---

I think it is. 'American Sarko'* has his failings, but I love his energy and his determination to give France a right good kick up the @r$€.
He has his good points and his bad points, but If it's Sarko, it might as well be him all the way.



* Pun! 'American Psycho' is a novel by Bret Easton Ellis. It is about the life of a wealthy young self-proclaimed serial killer. Which is pretty much what a psychological review of Sarkozy would describe him as.

Teh fun stuff!

You can vote Napoléon. That is, Charles Marie Jérôme Victor Napoléon VII, the current head of the Bonaparte family. He is a member of Bayrou's party, the UDF / MoDem.

This is what a Napoléon looks and sounds like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wiki

In 2000 he stood for election as mayor of Ajaccio, the historical seat of the Bonapartes in Corsica. Subsequently, he served as a member of the Ajaccio City Council, and in 2004 he held the post of deputy mayor in that city. He is currently standing as a candidate in the 2007 French legislative election for Seine-et-Marne. In September 2005 he announced plans to stand for election in 2008 as mayor of Fontainebleau, where Napoléon I bade farewell to France's Grande Armée upon going into exile in 1814.

---

Go American Sarko, this is how I like my Royal flush. Now all that remains is trialing her for treason and inciting violence, calling for violent riots is nothing less then that. Evil woman.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doc_bean

Can I show my ignorance and ask why you need two rounds for a parliamentary election ?

---

Wow. First appearance in the backroom for me, I pick up something concerning my kinsmen, to have an idea of how the rest of the world behaves/reacts. Well first, glad to see that we don't have arguing immature people.

Then to explain it to you, I think that in most countries, you vote for a party, and then the party takes a numbers of seats according to the percentage it got. More or less: Italy for instance gives "bonus seats" to the first party to avoid hard situations

In France it's differents, since the end of the fourth republic, which parliaments were overthrown every couple of month (latin arguing peoples! :beam:). The country has been divided into circonscriptions, one for each "député" (so that's 577 if I'm correct). You vote for someone (not a list), on a first round. All those who get above 12.5% can choose to stay on the second round. Then a second round occurs with those who stayed: the one with the most important number of votes wins (Note that if you have one candidate with 40%, another 32% and a third 28%, the first is elected).

Having a more "representative" parliament based on political parties is always debated... Voting for a person has its advantages as well...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Teh fun stuff!

You can vote Napoléon. That is, Charles Marie Jérôme Victor Napoléon VII, the current head of the Bonaparte family. He is a member of Bayrou's party, the UDF / MoDem.

This is what a Napoléon looks and sounds like.

---

Oh by the way, do you plan to join the MoDem? I've been wondering since its creation....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caerfanan

Wow. First appearance in the backroom for me, I pick up something concerning my kinsmen, to have an idea of how the rest of the world behaves/reacts. Well first, glad to see that we don't have arguing immature people.

---

Well, we do have arguing people but never about France. :wink: Welcome to the Backroom! :bow:

Can anyone tell me what was going on with M Sarkozy at the G8? This video (kindly released by the Belgians apparently) seems to show him three sheets to the wind, but I thought the president didn't drink?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Can anyone tell me what was going on with M Sarkozy at the G8? This video (kindly released by the Belgians apparently) seems to show him three sheets to the wind, but I thought the president didn't drink?

---

No, he's a health freak, he doesn't drink. Presumably, neither does Putin.

I posted the video in the video thread already, for laughs. But to be honest, I think Sarko is simply late, out of breath from being in a rush. Or maybe he just had lunch followed by one of those Godzilla :daisy: that leave you all sweaty, trembling and gasping for breath. :fainting: :scared:

If you watch the longer version, he soon sounds his normal, coherent self.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caerfanan

Oh by the way, do you plan to join the MoDem?

---

Teh hot and sexy join the orange revolution. ~;)

What we need first though is a different voting system. We'll never get anywhere like this. I am in favour of simple proportional representation, with a treshold of 5% to prevent too many tiny parties.

Welcome in the Backroom, btw. :jumping:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

No, he's a health freak, he doesn't drink. Presumably, neither does Putin.

---

In my opinion he was in a rush and might have had too heavy a meal. He doesn't sound normal in the long video, though, he has trouble for breath, at minimum. Weird. But could be from soemething you eat, if you're rushed in addition....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

What we need first though is a different voting system. We'll never get anywhere like this. I am in favour of simple proportional representation, with a treshold of 5% to prevent too many tiny parties.

---

Well, amen to that. Avoid too tiny parties, and maybe give a bnus to the first parties: but this will give "politics" to parties instead of people. Not that I'm agaisnt it, but it's quite different, though...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Welcome in the Backroom, btw. :jumping:

---

:beam:

The second (final) round of the legislative elections were held yesterday. It was not the landslide victory for the UMP (of Sarkozy) that was predicted. But he did win an absolute majority.

MoDem, of Bayrou, won a whopping 3 seats, out of 577. Two of which in Bayrou's homebase in the Pyrénées. Assorted UDF centrists elsewhere only won a few seats too.

Here's the map of results. Results are based on a district, winner-takes-all method.

In other news, Royal and her husband, Hollande, have now split up romantically as well as politically.
Hollande, it should be noted, is the leader of the Socialists, Royal's party.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BBC article

The revelations are expanded on in a book to be published by Ms Royal this week, in which she says Mr Hollande had been having an affair and that she had asked him to leave their home.

---

I read about that in a paper a few weeks ago. It also mentioned that a journalist discovered that Hollande considered endorsing Jospin for the election, but Royal told him that he'd never see his kids again if he did so. Royal then threatened to sue the journalist for invading their privacy :laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kralizec

I read about that in a paper a few weeks ago. It also mentioned that a journalist discovered that Hollande considered endorsing Jospin for the election, but Royal told him that he'd never see his kids again if he did so. Royal then threatened to sue the journalist for invading their privacy :laugh4:

---

Most likely she told him they would never see power again if he enlisted Jospin...
Jospin's years (1997-2002) was the best times in France for twenty years -sure we can debate about it, but everything was much easier then- but very few want to see this man back... A true losing machine (almost as fantastic loser as Juppé the Great on the other side!)