Latest update on 1.2 patch from Sega/CA

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Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

Now look what you go and do to make me feel bad:embarassed:

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Heh, i knew all that passive aggressive stuff my ex-gf used to pull on me would come in useful some day.

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I expected a game with far less bugs from the start.

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Thats fair enough. This is a problem that has occurred throughout the history of the TW series, so i can see your point that CA should have improved things by now.

But unfortunately the only way this is going to start to happen is if the game buying public start caring more about quality and less about shiny flashy graphics. CA have real unmovable deadlines imposed on them by the outside world that are a direct result of our (i.e. the game buying public in general) purchasing habits.

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I expected better customer service.

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There were bugs - what more can they do but fix the bugs? This is one place where i just dont understand why people are complaining. CA/SEGA are doing all that can be reasonably expected of them in this situation.

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I expected a more timely patch.

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I feel thats unrealistic - getting things like passive AI fixed is not a matter of simply finding a 'wrong line' in the code somewhere - its more a matter of balancing behaviours for certain conditions. Very, very tricky (if not impossible) to get this absolutely perfect - e.g. fix things 'too much' and you might end up with an AI that keeps charging at you even when its stupid to do so.

Thats without taking into account the fact that the source code apparently adds up to 65 megabytes (IIRC somebody said recently). Thats quite a few punch cards to look through.

Luckily, spring has arrived here and I'm more inclined to be outside anyway.

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Originally Posted by Daveybaby

I feel thats unrealistic - getting things like passive AI fixed is not a matter of simply finding a 'wrong line' in the code somewhere -

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Except for the fact that they said it was fixed in day 0 patch
then again in 1.1
then yet again in 1.2

and yet still no fix. Getting tired of hearing this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

the only reason that CA/SEGA can do this to its cutomers is cos of the uniqueness of the product and an apprent monopoly in this type of game. SEGA made a great investment when they took over from Activision. thats good business. and all monopolies exploit the cutomer since there is no alternative. but when the competition does arrive it will be a different story.

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However, it's worth pointing out that Total War has been around for nearly eight years now, and the competition still hasn't arrived. There's a simple reason for that - the Total War games are among the most complex games ever made, with two seperate but interacting environments, many thousands of individual features, text content on the order of two copies of War and Peace back-to-back and a codebase that stretches to millions of lines. Look at how far Battle for Middle Earth has made it down that road for an impression of the scale of the task.

We do try and keep bugs to a minimum - and if we could eliminate them altogether we would - but with products on this scale there is almost always something that slips the net, and I think you'll find that that's true for all software products that don't have the mission-critical requirements of, say, NASA... and even there, look at what happened to the Mars Global Surveyor the other day ;)

:grin2:

At least any software errors that slip into M2TW don't cause that sort of problem :thumbsup:

*sits back, relaxes, and waits for the seemingly inevitible CA bashing to being. Be nice - you've been warned

I don't think anyone here has an issue with the dissatisfied stating their opinion, but when it becomes "CA is lazy" or something that impunes CA in some way, I think that's going to far.

In this thread I've seen CA's work ethic, empathy, competance, and personal virtue attacked, and that sort of thing is not only unfair, but also creates an atmosphere in which CA employees may not be as willing to drop by and talk. And that is something other users here SHOULD be attacking, as it effects them directly.

I do not wish to lose the personal attention we get here from CA, and people who go beyond controlled criticism and attack CA could end up causing that.

As the previous poster stated (and thank you for taking the time to be here), none of us who don't work in the field they do can have an idea of the complexity that goes into this game. So perhaps they do use us as a bit of a last-line tester sometimes... how many of us have offered to do just that as a favor anyways? As a PC gamer, YOU KNOW you are going to get products that aren't perfect. Either accept that the first few months will be spend as an unpaid tester, or wait for the patch in the first place. They could have waited until 1.2 to release it, but we wouldn't have nearly the mod progress we do, and CA wouldn't have the Christmas sales... a lose-lose situation.

(Oh, and I suppose I'll address the "altruistic" argument... "what about the poor casual players who never even know about the patch?!?!"... honestly, do you know a PC gamer who doesn't know about patches? I can understand a console gamer not getting it, but PC gamers generally speaking are a lot more savvy. Besides, they'll get it with the expansion.)

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Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke

However, it's worth pointing out that Total War has been around for nearly eight years now, and the competition still hasn't arrived. There's a simple reason for that - the Total War games are among the most complex games ever made, with two seperate but interacting environments, many thousands of individual features, text content on the order of two copies of War and Peace back-to-back and a codebase that stretches to millions of lines. Look at how far Battle for Middle Earth has made it down that road for an impression of the scale of the task.

We do try and keep bugs to a minimum - and if we could eliminate them altogether we would - but with products on this scale there is almost always something that slips the net, and I think you'll find that that's true for all software products that don't have the mission-critical requirements of, say, NASA... and even there, look at what happened to the Mars Global Surveyor the other day ;)

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Sadly the strategy genre is stuck in the whole dumbed down basebuilding pathetic clickfests of bar fights of 40-50 guys... :no:
And I believe that the main reason is that its cheaper to reuse same Dune2 stuff and milk the hell out of the masses rather than to create something truly epic and immersive...
I believe that the lack of competition is harming the series and its outstanding how CA managed to keep their ego quite sane...
After the leaked 1.2 patch the game is really what it was meant to be and the shortness of its buglist is indicative of that...
The next step for you guys is to give us a MP campaign so we stop nagging about the PO (for marketing reasons called "AI")... :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke

However, it's worth pointing out that Total War has been around for nearly eight years now, and the competition still hasn't arrived. There's a simple reason for that - the Total War games are among the most complex games ever made, with two seperate but interacting environments, many thousands of individual features, text content on the order of two copies of War and Peace back-to-back and a codebase that stretches to millions of lines. Look at how far Battle for Middle Earth has made it down that road for an impression of the scale of the task.

We do try and keep bugs to a minimum - and if we could eliminate them altogether we would - but with products on this scale there is almost always something that slips the net, and I think you'll find that that's true for all software products that don't have the mission-critical requirements of, say, NASA... and even there, look at what happened to the Mars Global Surveyor the other day ;)

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your just reinforcing my point, if there was a similar game relased at about the same time CA would be all out to get the patch released not making more expansions.

i wasnt saying there will ever be a bug free game but some patrons seem to suggest that the patch is a favour being done to us by CA for free. after all u have already got my money. all games are pretty complex in the current market this not unique to Totalwar (at least the good ones will be complex)

and another point i like to make is since u have no competition what is the pint of dumbing down the game and trying to simplyfy the game? affectively making in a generic product.

@ Yawning angel

yeah morrowind was awesome unfortunately oblivions scaling and follow the arrow system and the fact that they took away so many otions for clothng armour etc seem to make me feel it was a step in the wrong direction in some ways. thought most other improvements were great.

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Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

Now look what you go and do to make me feel bad:embarassed:

In summary
I expected a game with far less bugs from the start.
I expected better customer service.
I expected a more timely patch.

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Yes well it hasn't happened that way, in a perfect world publishers would allow developers as much time as they wanted to make the game what they wanted and bug free, but we don't live there. Instead we live in a world where getting your product out by xmas no matter its condition seems to be a priority for some companies.

I think the customer service has been decent, theyve kept the public informed, theyve posted on the larger fansites to inform fans as to whats going on with the patches, none of them have been rude to anyone or insulting, what more can one ask for?

Well if you want a more timely patch that doesn't fix everything then demand that CA release the patch now, hell with any progress they've made, make the leaked patch the official one and then release a 1.3 later down the track.


Yes okay thats what you wanted, but you don't need to spell it out for us again. We know. :book:

I'm not going to say anymore about this because it only gets people started again, I happen to think that CA has done a decent job on M2TW, I'm still thoroughly enjoying playing it and I'm just waiting for the official patch. I just hope that no one finds anything to complain about the 1.2 patch because if its anything like this thread.... I'm going back to hide in my cave :whip:

and Nebuchadnezzar, if the game really is making you this upset, I suggest you cut the dvd up into little pieces and burn it religiously. There is no way that you should be getting this upset over a game, even if it was buggy when you bought it, they are FIXING (yes it should have definetly been fixed before but there is no use in crying over spilt milk, at least they are mopping it up (and yes they shouldn't have needed to mop in up in the first place, but its happened so they do have to!)) the game as we speak so until they release the next patch to get annoyed about please just relax, install M2TW, don't even think about the bugs, install the leaked 1.2 patch and enjoy some empire building. Otherwise there is nothing we can do to help you!

Have fun peeps, I'm outta this thread, unless I really need to respond to a reponse... :laugh4: :juggle2:

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

your just reinforcing my point, if there was a similar game relased at about the same time CA would be all out to get the patch released not making more expansions.

i wasnt saying there will ever be a bug free game but some patrons seem to suggest that the patch is a favour being done to us by CA for free. after all u have already got my money. all games are pretty complex in the current market this not unique to Totalwar (at least the good ones will be complex)

and another point i like to make is since u have no competition what is the pint of dumbing down the game and trying to simplyfy the game? affectively making in a generic product.

@ Yawning angel

yeah morrowind was awesome unfortunately oblivions scaling and follow the arrow system and the fact that they took away so many otions for clothng armour etc seem to make me feel it was a step in the wrong direction in some ways. thought most other improvements were great.

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Uhm I just have to reply to this.... you do realise that it is the UK CA STUDIO who is making the Expansion, and it is the AUSTRALIAN CA STUDIO who is making the patch..... and uhm, No one is saying the patch is a favour being done to us by CA, a favour would be fixing the game even if the company went bust in 2 months time.... It is expected that they fix the game its just nice if everyone wouldn't get so upset over it, and they are simplifying the game or dumbing it down? I didn't know that.

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Originally Posted by adembroski

I don't think anyone here has an issue with the dissatisfied stating their opinion, but when it becomes "CA is lazy" or something that impunes CA in some way, I think that's going to far.

In this thread I've seen CA's work ethic, empathy, competance, and personal virtue attacked, and that sort of thing is not only unfair, but also creates an atmosphere in which CA employees may not be as willing to drop by and talk. And that is something other users here SHOULD be attacking, as it effects them directly.

I do not wish to lose the personal attention we get here from CA, and people who go beyond controlled criticism and attack CA could end up causing that.

As the previous poster stated (and thank you for taking the time to be here), none of us who don't work in the field they do can have an idea of the complexity that goes into this game. So perhaps they do use us as a bit of a last-line tester sometimes... how many of us have offered to do just that as a favor anyways? As a PC gamer, YOU KNOW you are going to get products that aren't perfect. Either accept that the first few months will be spend as an unpaid tester, or wait for the patch in the first place. They could have waited until 1.2 to release it, but we wouldn't have nearly the mod progress we do, and CA wouldn't have the Christmas sales... a lose-lose situation.

(Oh, and I suppose I'll address the "altruistic" argument... "what about the poor casual players who never even know about the patch?!?!"... honestly, do you know a PC gamer who doesn't know about patches? I can understand a console gamer not getting it, but PC gamers generally speaking are a lot more savvy. Besides, they'll get it with the expansion.)

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I read your post twice and to be honest I agree with a lot you have said here. I am by no means an advocate for CA but those who make remarks directly to thier charecter and work ethic should be challenged.

I also agree that those who arent in the field probably cant comprehend what goes into a game and the realities of the business. In all honesty you make a well reasoned argument and I dont dispute your point of view at all.

I think those who have kicked this discussion up to the point of questioning CA misses the larger point. that larger point is that they are the problem. As I have said in prior posts, the gaming industry is in the state it is in now soely due to the consumption of the fan.

I understand we are on a site that is primarily hardcore fans and not even representative of 10% of the overall purchases of the TW series. That said, I have seen very few posters here step up and take responsibility for thier role in enabling this process.

This trend in the gaming industry is hardly new, and at this point we should all be clear that games released today will have bugs, even follow up patches. You can reconcille them anyway you wish, (industry pressure, lack of money, testers, yadda yadda), but from this point on you cant absolve yourself of being part of the problem.

If you buy PC games at release you support the industry standard as is, stop doing that, allow them to patch thier games up to what you believe to be acceptable and then make your purchase.

Not only will you be excersising your absolute power in this process, you will most likely get the game in the developed state you want, most likely cheaper and you will benefit from the many hundreds of other users who are happy to participate in the fix process.

Its a no loose, accept you dont have the game straight away and therefore cant complain about its short comings.

safety responsibility only huh.

what about quality control? or is that a term i dreamed up?

but on the other at least they didnt do like clevers did with war of the machines. release a game and not add a single patch and then disappear.

that game had a lot of potential if it had just been supported.

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Originally Posted by Odin

If you buy PC games at release you support the industry standard as is, stop doing that, allow them to patch thier games up to what you believe to be acceptable and then make your purchase.

Not only will you be excersising your absolute power in this process, you will most likely get the game in the developed state you want, most likely cheaper and you will benefit from the many hundreds of other users who are happy to participate in the fix process.

Its a no loose, accept you dont have the game straight away and therefore cant complain about its short comings.

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Odin, I take your point but there is an issue I would raise. It may sound facetious but it's not intended to be.

If no one bought PC games until they'd been patched, how would the developers get the feedback that they utilise currently to inform the design of those patches? We know that companies are unable to replicate the sort of mass testing that a released product gets from consumers using their in-house resources. They rely on consumer feedback to improve the product after launch.

I realise that you and a lot of people are uncomfortable with this but I can't see a workable alternative. It's not a question of developers devoting more time or resource to testing - they can't hope to match the variety and quality of playing styles that their consumers will bring to the game.

The upshot is that they build a working version, release it, get us to test it, patch it and hope we're all happy. This approach may not seem ideal but remember that there are benefits: non-buggy changes to the game also occur during this process (e.g., inquisitors get toned down).

Personally, I'm happy to accept the status quo. I know the game will get fixed and I've got plenty of other things to be getting on with meantime. I wish it hadn't taken so long but I realise that CA and Sega have no incentive to hold back the patch and every incentive to get it out ASAP, so I'm prepared to accept that the delay is unavoidable.

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Originally Posted by diotavelli

If no one bought PC games until they'd been patched, how would the developers get the feedback that they utilise currently to inform the design of those patches?

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through thier own vast testing of thier own product. Having an open beta test for users would achieve this, of course this is counter intutive to the current market condition, why do this when you can get paying beta testers?

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We know that companies are unable to replicate the sort of mass testing that a released product gets from consumers using their in-house resources. They rely on consumer feedback to improve the product after launch.

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While I believe your first sentence is a subjective hypothesis, lets assume your correct. Thats a problem the consumer shouldnt be bothered with, thats a condition of thier business, maybe they arent charging enough for thier product?

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The upshot is that they build a working version, release it, get us to test it, patch it and hope we're all happy. This approach may not seem ideal but remember that there are benefits: non-buggy changes to the game also occur during this process (e.g., inquisitors get toned down).

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Thats just it mate, it is ideal, for the dev/publisher and the % of users who are happy to go through the bug/mod/reporting procedure for the company. I am not nieve to the reality of the business, but I have been around the block long enough to know that businesses are driven by the consumption of thier customers. So all those people who do nt like the condition of the gaming industry, are the ones who have the power to change it. Perhaps the only ones.

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Personally, I'm happy to accept the status quo. I know the game will get fixed and I've got plenty of other things to be getting on with meantime. I wish it hadn't taken so long but I realise that CA and Sega have no incentive to hold back the patch and every incentive to get it out ASAP, so I'm prepared to accept that the delay is unavoidable.

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I can live with the status quo as well. I didnt purchase MTW2 until after 1.1 and user mods that fixed the issues. I did my dillegence I read the boards and understood what was wrong with the product and waited until there were appropriate fixes. I have also been playing TW games since shogun, I knew what to expect from CA and how this process would evolve.

I dont begrudge anyone thier use of the system, at any level, my simple point is that only one person can change the current system and thats the customer. Some of the people complaining here dont seem to want to acknowledge thier part in this process.

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Originally Posted by Durallan

Uhm I just have to reply to this.... you do realise that it is the UK CA STUDIO who is making the Expansion, and it is the AUSTRALIAN CA STUDIO who is making the patch..... and uhm, No one is saying the patch is a favour being done to us by CA, a favour would be fixing the game even if the company went bust in 2 months time.... It is expected that they fix the game its just nice if everyone wouldn't get so upset over it, and they are simplifying the game or dumbing it down? I didn't know that.

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erm have u even read the whole thread?? well it my be my bad english and i must have misunderstood all the comments made by some of the previous posters. i apologise

and just cos u didnt know something doenst mean it didnt happen, that was a very contructive comment thank you :laugh4:

hey guys i downloaded the "lands to conquer 1.2" but apparetly is for the leaked patch. Will this patch work with the official patch too? i need to know in order to leave it to my grandchildren when the patch comes out around those years. :oops:

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Originally Posted by Odin

While I believe your first sentence is a subjective hypothesis, lets assume your correct. Thats a problem the consumer shouldnt be bothered with, thats a condition of thier business, maybe they arent charging enough for thier product?

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I gave a further explanation of why developers are unable to replicate the sort of testing a product will get from customers using in-house resources: "It's not a question of developers devoting more time or resource to testing - they can't hope to match the variety and quality of playing styles that their consumers will bring to the game."

The only alternative would be some sort of massive beta testing operation but, given that that would be a logistical nightmare fraught with piracy issues, I don't see it as practical - unless customers were prepared to meet the additional cost.

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Originally Posted by Odin

I dont begrudge anyone thier use of the system, at any level, my simple point is that only one person can change the current system and thats the customer. Some of the people complaining here dont seem to want to acknowledge thier part in this process.

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I agree completely that there is a lack of perspective from many people who post on this forum. It's one thing being annoyed by aspects of the game or by the presence of bugs but to assume that CA should be able fix things quicker or publish patches faster (when we have no knowledge of the real facts) is plain stupid.

I realise that your approach works for you but I'm not convinced it would work if everyone adopted it.

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Originally Posted by neoiq5719

hey guys i downloaded the "lands to conquer 1.2" but apparetly is for the leaked patch. Will this patch work with the official patch too? i need to know in order to leave it to my grandchildren when the patch comes out around those years. :oops:

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sorry the 2.2 i meant

You know how this game should be fixed??????????By deleting it from every computer and destroying every dvd or cd containing this game.

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

You know how this game should be fixed??????????By deleting it from every computer and destroying every dvd or cd containing this game.

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A lot of anger bottled up huh? dude if u dont like it is ok just throw it away and period, get on with your life. We ( the ones who like it) will stick around till the patch get here.
Have a good life and bye

I wholehartedly agree, then no one would have nothing to complain about in the first place, because it wouldn't exist and therefore we wouldn't be talking about it right now.

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Originally Posted by diotavelli

I gave a further explanation of why developers are unable to replicate the sort of testing a product will get from customers using in-house resources: "It's not a question of developers devoting more time or resource to testing - they can't hope to match the variety and quality of playing styles that their consumers will bring to the game."

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Yes you did and I read that, but there in lies the large part of the problem. If what you are saying is correct then the only viable solution outside of your example would be to pull from that base and have open beta testing.

Other companies do it, but again, why bother if you can get that from a paying consumer anyway? I am honestly not completely intrested in the shortcomings of the PC gaming business model. I much rather worry about things I can control then things I cant, and one thing that absolutely every poster here can control is when, or whether they buy the game.

We cant control the internal processes of a private company.

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The only alternative would be some sort of massive beta testing operation but, given that that would be a logistical nightmare fraught with piracy issues, I don't see it as practical - unless customers were prepared to meet the additional cost.

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So we agree after all. Again, to me its a companies responsibility to ensure thier product meets the customers expectations. Logisitical nightmares, and piracy can be dealt with if the appropriate resources are brought to bare. this is why its an industry problem not exclusive to CA. Companies are handicapped because almost every publisher puts thier games out like this. Customers line up for prereleases, modding, you name it. So I dont blame CA at all, there trapped, yet decrease in sales would require a new outlook on the practices that go into the manufacture of a game.

that is the only viable solution, consumers that speak with thier wallet are often the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

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I agree completely that there is a lack of perspective from many people who post on this forum. It's one thing being annoyed by aspects of the game or by the presence of bugs but to assume that CA should be able fix things quicker or publish patches faster (when we have no knowledge of the real facts) is plain stupid.

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If those who were preaching that raised thier hand high and proclaimed they are part of the problem I wouldnt have an issue at all.

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I realise that your approach works for you but I'm not convinced it would work if everyone adopted it.

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It might not, but the current approach has us all running in circles, and who benefits from that ? CA/Sega they already have your cash, and we are telling them what they did wrong in the first place, then they fix it.

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Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke

There's a simple reason for that - the Total War games are among the most complex games ever made, with two seperate but interacting environments, many thousands of individual features, text content on the order of two copies of War and Peace back-to-back and a codebase that stretches to millions of lines. Look at how far Battle for Middle Earth has made it down that road for an impression of the scale of the task.

We do try and keep bugs to a minimum - and if we could eliminate them altogether we would - but with products on this scale there is almost always something that slips the net, and I think you'll find that that's true for all software products that don't have the mission-critical requirements of, say, NASA... and even there, look at what happened to the Mars Global Surveyor the other day ;)

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This is completely true, and the source of much of my frustration (I won't pretend to speak for others, if they agree with me they'll speak up and if they don't, well, they're probably more likely to speak up:beam: ) The game is massively complex and incredibly difficult to test completely. WHY then, for the love of all that is good and holy, will you not allow us to PAY YOU for the privelege of testing it for you? Enlist the fans who preorder or buy the collector's editions to do pre-release beta testing of games and patches, and redirect some of your testing budget to fixing bugs instead of finding them.

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Originally Posted by Pode

This is completely true, and the source of much of my frustration (I won't pretend to speak for others, if they agree with me they'll speak up and if they don't, well, they're probably more likely to speak up:beam: ) The game is massively complex and incredibly difficult to test completely. WHY then, for the love of all that is good and holy, will you not allow us to PAY YOU for the privelege of testing it for you? Enlist the fans who preorder or buy the collector's editions to do pre-release beta testing of games and patches, and redirect some of your testing budget to fixing bugs instead of finding them.

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Thanks Pode - you let Odin and I waffle on for half a dozen posts about how to solve the problem of paying customers testing the game after it's been officially released and then you come along and provide the solution that was staring us in the face the whole time.......

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Originally Posted by Pode

WHY then, for the love of all that is good and holy, will you not allow us to PAY YOU for the privelege of testing it for you?

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While diotavelli is giving you praise I am a little dumbfounded at your premise.

This is already occuring, the org itself has a "1.3 wishlist" and a 1.2 buglist.

CA already has paying customers testing it for them, whats thier incentive to change?

And there in lies the problem, the only incentive is from a backlash from unhappy customers not willing to buy thier next offering. Im sorry to be harsh pode but your concept is already a reality.

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Originally Posted by Pode

WHY then, for the love of all that is good and holy, will you not allow us to PAY YOU for the privelege of testing it for you?

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It's an interesting suggestion, and I'll certainly discuss it with the powers that be. It's the difference between "opting in" to the pre-patch build and not doing so, and it would definitely give a better quality product lying in the shops.... But there is one thing that is likely to scupper it, which is piracy - generally titles last 1-2 weeks before being cracked, and thats if you're both lucky and use the latest copy protection. Games getting out onto the warez circuit before release is fairly disastrous.

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Originally Posted by Odin

While diotavelli is giving you praise I am a little dumbfounded at your premise.

This is already occuring, the org itself has a "1.3 wishlist" and a 1.2 buglist.

CA already has paying customers testing it for them, whats thier incentive to change?

And there in lies the problem, the only incentive is from a backlash from unhappy customers not willing to buy thier next offering. Im sorry to be harsh pode but your concept is already a reality.

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Odin, surely you're being obtuse here? What Pode is suggesting is not "already occuring".

Currently, people are buying a product at full cost, under the assumption that it is intended to be a ready-to-play finished product and may well be so. In the case of M2TW, we discovered that the game is bugged after customers had given it a good going over. CA are going to patch the game to fix it. All of this has occured post-release.

Pode is suggesting that a group of customers will pay for their games in advance and then be recruited as beta testers. They will get early access to the game but will know that it is not viewed as a finished product. Changes required to improve playability or remove bugs will be written into the released product, not added via patches post-release.

The two situations are entirely different: beta testing happens post-release in one case and pre-release in the other.

You've been suggesting that people should refuse to buy the product until it is ready - Pode has come up with a sensible suggestion as to how this can happen. His approach would allow you to buy a product on release day, knowing that it had been properly tested and worked fine - which is what you claim to want.

I know you're determined to start some sort of consumer backlash against the PC gaming industry but you shouldn't let that determination leave you unable to grasp alternatives, surely?

All I have to say is Wow, some of the levels of ignorance displayed here are astounding. Some people really do not have any grasp of how the real world works at all, yet the claim of understanding is there. Talk about whining... This thread has made my day. ~:thumb:

Nods to Jerome for posting in here.

The point about the TW games being "most complex ever" is completely insubstantial though. Any dev is going to think that about their baby though. :grin:

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Originally Posted by diotavelli

Odin, surely you're being obtuse here? What Pode is suggesting is not "already occuring".

Currently, people are buying a product at full cost, under the assumption that it is intended to be a ready-to-play finished product and may well be so. In the case of M2TW, we discovered that the game is bugged after customers had given it a good going over. CA are going to patch the game to fix it. All of this has occured post-release.

Pode is suggesting that a group of customers will pay for their games in advance and then be recruited as beta testers. They will get early access to the game but will know that it is not viewed as a finished product. Changes required to improve playability or remove bugs will be written into the released product, not added via patches post-release.

The two situations are entirely different: beta testing happens post-release in one case and pre-release in the other.

You've been suggesting that people should refuse to buy the product until it is ready - Pode has come up with a sensible suggestion as to how this can happen. His approach would allow you to buy a product on release day, knowing that it had been properly tested and worked fine - which is what you claim to want.

I know you're determined to start some sort of consumer backlash against the PC gaming industry but you shouldn't let that determination leave you unable to grasp alternatives, surely?

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Well yes i was being slightly obtuse and slightly rhetorical in the sense that its my view that customers already pay for a product that needs to be tested.

Yes i understand what he is saying and the differences, no need to start down a negative path here. his suggestion is sensible, but hardly practical (IMHO) given the fact of the current circumstance.

the game is being purchased, tested, and reported on and the company improves it from there. That infact is occurring right now. My point is aimed at the sods who come on here and bitch about the game in its current state without acknowledgement of thier part in the process.

Im not trying to start a backlash, Im simply giving an opinion, based on logic of the impact that consumers have on the process. Im honestly not completely intrested in how CA can improve thier business model because I am convinced it wouldnt take root.

Cynical? perhaps, but my approach to life has always been to worry about the things I can control, not things beyond it.

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Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke

It's an interesting suggestion, and I'll certainly discuss it with the powers that be. It's the difference between "opting in" to the pre-patch build and not doing so, and it would definitely give a better quality product lying in the shops.... But there is one thing that is likely to scupper it, which is piracy - generally titles last 1-2 weeks before being cracked, and thats if you're both lucky and use the latest copy protection. Games getting out onto the warez circuit before release is fairly disastrous.

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:daisy:

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

:daisy:

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That's sad if it's true. You should be supporting the industry.

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

:daisy:

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AS much as I was hoping to go on and on with diotavelli, its hard to muster much after this.

You certainly are having quite a day for yourself dracula, your everywhere today. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

:daisy:

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Ah VLAD.... Weren't you banned from the .COM for making this sort of comment worthy of Baldrick from Blackadder?

I have been away for a little while, too much work. I was hoping to come back and see that, after almost 2 weeks, there might be some sort of update on when we would finally receive the new 1.2 patch, but to no avail.

I admit I don't know much about programming, but what strikes me as odd is that there are many out there who are using the "leaked" 1.2 patch and have, for the most part, good success with it. As I understand it, comments have indicated that the problem was with the installer and not the actual programming itself.

If this is the case, wouldn't one think that this could be resolved relatively quickly?

I am a devoted, but frustrated, fan of this series. I hope it all works out.

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

:daisy:

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He has been posting such nonsense in all threads... just ignore him.

I suspect the 1.2 patch is suffering from a little feature creep... When it get's sent back from QA, the devs have already fixed a few more items in the latest build so they fix the issues QA raise in this new build and send it out, which results in the possibility of more issues...

It is a case of swings and roundabouts though as while it takes longer to get the patch, in the end it will fix more...

Hey, as long as it get leaked each time around the loop, i aint gonna complain.

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Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke

It's an interesting suggestion, and I'll certainly discuss it with the powers that be. It's the difference between "opting in" to the pre-patch build and not doing so, and it would definitely give a better quality product lying in the shops.... But there is one thing that is likely to scupper it, which is piracy - generally titles last 1-2 weeks before being cracked, and thats if you're both lucky and use the latest copy protection. Games getting out onto the warez circuit before release is fairly disastrous.

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Ah milord, would CA be looking for beta-testers and bug spotters? Recruit from the community. Free, and very eager. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

:daisy:

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It must be really sad being you.

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

It must be really sad being you.

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:daisy:

Who started a game of Troll: The Flaming and didn't invite me?

C'mon man, you're ten seconds from the old " U R ALL N00BS" argument. Can't you be a little more creative in your trolling, like mention Gun Control or Abortion or something?

I support the community, I get to play online, I have them when they are released ( no, not the usual Romanian companies...).

It's sad being you because your comments are totally off the line of good judgement.

Alas, enough talk. Go back to your cracked games. Real world is not for you.

Please do not respond to Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)'s posts. The moderators will deal with his rule violations.

Can someone kick this guy out, and ban his butt?

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Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke

It's an interesting suggestion, and I'll certainly discuss it with the powers that be. It's the difference between "opting in" to the pre-patch build and not doing so, and it would definitely give a better quality product lying in the shops.... But there is one thing that is likely to scupper it, which is piracy - generally titles last 1-2 weeks before being cracked, and thats if you're both lucky and use the latest copy protection. Games getting out onto the warez circuit before release is fairly disastrous.

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Thats why you guys should switch to Multiplayer...
I havent heard of any multiplayer oriented game being pirated extensively...
WarcraftIII, BF2,Lineage2, WoW, CS, MoH you name it...
These games income is the clear indication of how much money is lost on piracy...

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

It must be really sad being you.

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Youve just called the most of Easter/South Eastern Europeans sad...and I must tell you people in Greece where Im from are FAAAR from being sad with the weather and the summer we have...
Its just that we have this all leftist hatred towards corporations of any kind...so there isnt this remorse sadly about piracy...

I agree with your conclusions, Odin: the only way we're going to get the release quality everyone is asking for is with some kind of system where you can actually play a game for a while that you haven't yet paid for, and open betas seem to be the best option there since they'll give the companies the feedback that they'd normally get from the pre-major-patch phase of the process. Without the ability to do this, consumers have no idea what they're purchasing, and that's an unacceptable situation for the industry to remain in. I do understand the risks and roadblocks currently associated with this for the developer/publisher... but it will have to happen in the future, somehow, because the issue is quickly coming to a head.

The idea of waiting for the major patch before buying the game would be quite effective at forcing reform on the industry, as eventually there will be too few pre-patch buyers to give the good feedback the company needs to get that patch into shape... and all the post-patch buyers will be waiting for the product to get to a level it can't get to because of inadequate feedback. At that point, there's no choice left except to fix the situation: the company needs feedback somehow in order to get it good enough for the post-patch buyers to buy it, and if the majority of the market is refusing to pay for the "privilege" of giving that feedback on the unfinished 1.0 product, there's little recourse except to make the 1.0 release free. By that, I simply mean what we just got as a 1.0 would be forced to be the open beta release, and 1.2 would then become the actual paying release of the product. It will take some time to get things to that point, but I honestly think it's the only way any of us are going to get relief from the hosing the gaming industry is currently allowed to give us.

Companies could of course avoid doing that and simply do without the community feedback... but I'm betting without it, the game never gets to a point that people will agree to buy it: it's amazing the amount of bugs the gaming community is currently swatting, and I don't think gaming companies can get their products to a reasonably bug-free and fan-pleasing level without that help or else ridiculous extra testing expenses that they don't want. I'm not against the community doing it, I'm just saying we shouldn't have to pay to do it for them for months, and we have to do something to make them realize that.

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Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke

It's an interesting suggestion, and I'll certainly discuss it with the powers that be. It's the difference between "opting in" to the pre-patch build and not doing so, and it would definitely give a better quality product lying in the shops.... But there is one thing that is likely to scupper it, which is piracy - generally titles last 1-2 weeks before being cracked, and thats if you're both lucky and use the latest copy protection. Games getting out onto the warez circuit before release is fairly disastrous.

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Please correct me if I'm wrong but the real testing that is needed is the main program, ie, to avoid things like shield/2h bugs and passive ai. A time limited incomplete version of mtw2 ( say 3 or 4 faction and small map)would seem to me to allow testing of the most critical things without putting out a full version which would undoubtedly get gobbled up by the warez community. Indeed even if an abbreviated version did get cracked and passed around, it may well still successfully promote the full versions sales. A bit like a better demo.

Sure there may be bugs in individual animations/descr etc files but these would be much more easily sorted.

I for one would pay to be part of making better totalwar type games. That initial payment would go towards the cost of the full game when it was fully released.

Totalwar is one game series which has legions of loyal fans just waiting for things to go right.

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Originally Posted by Foz

I agree with your conclusions, Odin: the only way we're going to get the release quality everyone is asking for is with some kind of system where you can actually play a game for a while that you haven't yet paid for, and open betas seem to be the best option there since they'll give the companies the feedback that they'd normally get from the pre-major-patch phase of the process. Without the ability to do this, consumers have no idea what they're purchasing, and that's an unacceptable situation for the industry to remain in. I do understand the risks and roadblocks currently associated with this for the developer/publisher... but it will have to happen in the future, somehow, because the issue is quickly coming to a head.

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After having wasted a good 3 years being a fanboy of Paradox I came to a very concrete conclusion on the gaming industry. That games take approx 3 patches and 6-9 months of release to the public before all the annoying bugs are removed (big and small).

After that you get some real enhancements. I just dont think its to much to ask to be at the 1.2 point when making a purchase. Was it really so hard, and such a trial of the QA dept that they couldnt find the shield bug? The two handed issue? :no:

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At that point, there's no choice left except to fix the situation: the company needs feedback somehow in order to get it good enough for the post-patch buyers to buy it, and if the majority of the market is refusing to pay for the "privilege" of giving that feedback on the unfinished 1.0 product, there's little recourse except to make the 1.0 release free. By that, I simply mean what we just got as a 1.0 would be forced to be the open beta release, and 1.2 would then become the actual paying release of the product. It will take some time to get things to that point, but I honestly think it's the only way any of us are going to get relief from the hosing the gaming industry is currently allowed to give us.

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Thats possible but unlikely. I truly believe that the industry has developed a wonderful business model and its firing on all cylindars. So you have a 100 or so die hards that arent happy, in the larger scope of things you industry rags and web sites giving glowing reviews to these games, end users happy to fix the problems for you, and on top of that you have multiple fan sites that list the bugs for you.

In a formatted efficent manner that makes its easier to fix. The killer for me is, with all this working in thier favor we still, at (leaked) 1.2 have a bug list. Of course you will always have those who will claim the complexity of the development necessitates a bug or two. No pun intended here, but your solution is decent but "why fix it if it isnt broken?"

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Companies could of course avoid doing that and simply do without the community feedback... but I'm betting without it, the game never gets to a point that people will agree to buy it: it's amazing the amount of bugs the gaming community is currently swatting, and I don't think gaming companies can get their products to a reasonably bug-free and fan-pleasing level without that help or else ridiculous extra testing expenses that they don't want. I'm not against the community doing it, I'm just saying we shouldn't have to pay to do it for them for months, and we have to do something to make them realize that.

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I benefit from community fixes, I am part of the problem here and I freely admit it. What bothers me slightly is that the end users (those who fix, and those who purchase) rarely step up to the plate and state that they infact are the cause of all this.

I will be curious to see how the new expansion pans out on the boards. I suspect that we will be rightback here having a similar conversation.

the only legally binding way that they could probably get more beta testers is if they started a closed public beta, and you had to sign an NDA and register with them (that would mean giving them your name address ekcetera which is what some companies do, and erm breaking the NDA could be nasty for the person who breaks it and its not too ahrd to find out who so, that could be an option if its properly controlled. Except that they wouldn''t have to pay to test it, which would be fair seeing they signed an NDA, but anyway thats just another path, another idea is the DevNet which Egosoft uses.

Hey Lusted do you reckon you can get the CA guys to look at the DevNet idea?

Just leave some part out. Make settlements only buildable to the 2nd level, out of 5. Send that out to the beta testers, and they can leak it all they want.

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Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke

It's an interesting suggestion, and I'll certainly discuss it with the powers that be. It's the difference between "opting in" to the pre-patch build and not doing so, and it would definitely give a better quality product lying in the shops.... But there is one thing that is likely to scupper it, which is piracy - generally titles last 1-2 weeks before being cracked, and thats if you're both lucky and use the latest copy protection. Games getting out onto the warez circuit before release is fairly disastrous.

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I totally agree. IMO piracy is worse then ever and its quickly starting to destroy the pc market.

Thanks to everyone who did their best to engage in constructive debate.

A reminder to a select few people: advocating piracy is against guild rules and as such is simply not acceptable in this forum.

Above and beyond that, what right to you have to complain about a game that you haven't even purchased?

My sincere thanks go to Jerome for braving the terrors of this thread to present his point of view. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

:daisy:

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I smell the whiff of the banhammer....~:wave:

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Originally Posted by sapi

My sincere thanks go to Jerome for braving the terrors of this thread to present his point of view. :bow:

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Ditto. Thank you Jerome. :bow:

Matty, please don't feed the troll (though it would be fair to say that Dracula's immediate future here is clouded)

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Originally Posted by Lord_hazard

I totally agree. IMO piracy is worse then ever and its quickly starting to destroy the pc market.

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Indeed. The obvious solution is to further lower the quality of games, load them up with malware and provide little or no customer support. If the pirates are so succesful, copying their practices must surely be the way to go.

Chicken? Or egg?

Actually, the obvious (and workable) solution is an online verification system such as Steam; but we digress :grin2:

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Originally Posted by sapi

Actually, the obvious (and workable) solution is an online verification system such as Steam; but we digress :grin2:

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Oh, absolutely. Because such a flawless protection scheme is exactly what the customers really want.

Forget about quality, customer support and all that other nonsense. Nobody really wants that anyway.

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Originally Posted by sapi

Actually, the obvious (and workable) solution is an online verification system such as Steam; but we digress :grin2:

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NO. Nonononononononononononono.

I would agree to Egosofts way, of registering your serial number to get the patches and other cool stuff to download, but not an onilne verification system, unless it allowed me to download the game later on (like Stardock). Just NO. What happens when you want to play the game a say a decade later and the company has gone bust or something? What does one do then? Steam is barely acceptable. It forces the program on you to play the game which I don't like but maybe thats just me.

I quite liked those things in the old days where certain hints were in the manual and without the manual, you'd be stuck at a point in game and couldn't continue (as you wouldn't know in which order for example you had to do something).
I guess the problem would then be people putting the manual online. But that would probably be rarer than the game online, especially if the company does not provide an electronic copy of the manual (someone will have to scan pages)

Or that thing where you had to enter a certain word from a certain page of the manual to start the game. That was priceless. Too bad there's always going to be the kind of people who will try to make those things available online. Not much that can be done about it. Actually I do wonder whether copy protection is overrated. The people pirating with or without would likely still be around the same but the publisher saves some cash not buying the copy protection and having to worry about constantly updating it and getting hate from the community members who use an abberant CD drive that the copy protection doesn't like.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Actually I do wonder whether copy protection is overrated. The people pirating with or without would likely still be around the same but the publisher saves some cash not buying the copy protection and having to worry about constantly updating it and getting hate from the community members who use an abberant CD drive that the copy protection doesn't like.

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I agree, a great example is Stardock, companies should follow in Stardock's footsteps, you don't need a serial to install or play the game at all, but if you want the numerous updates (which not only fix things, they also add features) you need to enter your serial number into a program called Stardock central, which is similar to Steam except it doesn't need to be running or even on your system to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Nellup

I agree, a great example if Stardock, companies should follow in Stardock's footsteps, you don't need a serial to install or play the game at all, but if you want the numerous updates (which not only fix things, they also add features) you need to enter your serial number into a program called Stardock central, which is similar to Steam except it doesn't need to be running or even on your system to play the game.

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This would be perfectly fine and acceptable to me. Steam is a DRM and bug riddled PoS. I'm completely and totally for publishers attempting to protect their software, but there's a line that's drawn when software becomes spyware/big brother/1984-ish, Steam is over that line IMO. What's even sadder is Valve had the right idea with WON. For the record I do agree that piracy is a problem, but it's not nearly as bad as some sections of the industry and publishers would try to make it out to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nellup

I agree, a great example if Stardock, companies should follow in Stardock's footsteps, you don't need a serial to install or play the game at all, but if you want the numerous updates (which not only fix things, they also add features) you need to enter your serial number into a program called Stardock central, which is similar to Steam except it doesn't need to be running or even on your system to play the game.

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The kicker is Gal Civ 2 was a top selling game for weeks...WITHOUT any protection. Heck, you don't even need the cd to play the game. You just install it (or download the entire thing online).

Gal Civ 2 was a perfect example that the same success can be had without the ridiculous protections that make it annoying for "legal" gamers.

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Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

I can't help but feel that yesterdays outburst @twcenter by Caliban regarding trolls may have been pointing a finger at me!!!

Does expressing my displeasure at having received a faulty game make me a troll? or for being observant enough to notice the plethora of bugs and then brave enough to make comment make me a troll? Am I a troll for expressing dissatisfaction for the fact that I had to wait 5 months for customer service to fix the game?

or, god forbid to ever make any negative comment in regards to the game whether justified or not make me a troll?

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.....Ja, pretty much. ~:cool:

Keep on topic please. This thread is for discussion of patch 1.2, not general game industry copy protection methods. If you want to talk about that, take it to the Arena.

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Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke

It's an interesting suggestion, and I'll certainly discuss it with the powers that be. It's the difference between "opting in" to the pre-patch build and not doing so, and it would definitely give a better quality product lying in the shops.... But there is one thing that is likely to scupper it, which is piracy - generally titles last 1-2 weeks before being cracked, and thats if you're both lucky and use the latest copy protection. Games getting out onto the warez circuit before release is fairly disastrous.

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I wish I could take credit for the idea, but it's Brad Wardell and crew at Stardock that introduced me to it with the way they handled Galactic Civilizations II. Which, BTW, has done right well for itself without copy protection of any sort, through the mechanism of requiring the CD key in order to register to get the patches.

If I ran the zoo, I would aim for a release build on the CDs to be a presentable beta (first cut beta version less any crash bugs, basically), and then all of the other fixes be bundled into a release day patch (which requires the CD key to install). In this way, the pre-release beta tests work out as discussed before, and the pirates get a weakly functioning version of the game. If they like it and see potential, they buy it in order to get the patches, and now piracy has made you an extra sale, on top of the money you previously made off us fans who burned down your preorder server the second it went live. :laugh4: Which I think is exactly the point in the dev cycle when extra cash would be most handy, as it can go toward the final marketing blitz.

In short, I think in a lot of ways this is a really good idea, and the fact that you're willing to discuss it with the brass in spite of the piracy concerns makes me VERY happy. :yes: :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Pode

I wish I could take credit for the idea, but it's Brad Wardell and crew at Stardock that introduced me to it with the way they handled Galactic Civilizations II. Which, BTW, has done right well for itself without copy protection of any sort, through the mechanism of requiring the CD key in order to register to get the patches.

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Paradox did the exact same thing with Europa Universalis 3 (except they went one step too far and gave owners of the Collectors Edition more free content to download than those with the standard edition damn them). I think it's a great policy personally.
Not only that, but when you have registered your game it is linked to your account on their forum so you can see who has the game. Only those who have registered the game get access to the tech forums. Not sure about that one.

Thats kind of like Bioware and how you can only post on certain forums there if you have a valid cd key registered on their site.

Maybe those who are upset at not being 'allowed' to trash CA/SEGA etc might want to consider where the server for this forum is hosted - If its in a litigal country like the USA, I bet the moderators would be rather quick to clamp down on any posts that are going to get them sued back into the stoneage.

Sorry, but that last post is just ignorance regarding law and legal procedure. There's a pretty well defined difference between legitimate complaints and criticism of a product which is part of free speech, at least in the US, and illegal speech. The other individual's highly controversial posts that we've been asked to ignore are not in of themselves illegal, however the behavior described clearly is. Best thing to do is warn, ban if necessary which I believe is probably occurring. The mods said it best, don't feed the troll in this case.

Discussing copy protection schemes may arguably not be on topic with this thread, but I think some of it is keeping in the spirit of the discussion. I do agree that this has gotten way off topic though, at this point.

:focus:

So, after what, a few weeks now, now that some of us have had time to digest the leaked patch, have any opinions changed?

Honestly my opinion has not. The big button issue for me, unit blobbing and cohesion, shows absolutely no improvement since v1.0 in my experience. Trying to keep my armies in sync, moving in formation, responding to commands effectively, reforming, etc... It's pretty much impossible. This is one aspect where RTW just blows M2TW out of the water. See my post in the bug thread for an aspect of this, it's not the whole picture but it shows much of it. This, coupled with the passive AI bug and extremely wierd behavior in some sieges has led me to just autoresolve all the battles I fight. Kinda sad, because it takes away that whole aspect of the game. The campaign map is fun and I like spending a lot of time on it, but fighting the battles is really the core of what this series is about, without them the game just feels empty. Sure there are some improvements, which are all well and good and to be expected, unfortunately for me the big issues that ruin the game haven't been fixed. Worse, I am starting to get the feeling and impression that this is the way the game is designed to work, and I sincerely hope that is NOT the case.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

*discussion on unit blobbing/anti-blobbing*

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I haven't seen as horrible results as any of your test pictures are showing, and my units do try to put themselves back into formation while they're marching/running. It's sure not perfect, but it's not disgusting like your pictures, either. I noticed your units sizes in the pics though. Try normal sizes: I can only guess that's why the whole anti-blobbing thing has never seemed problematic to me. In fact come to think of it, the unit size setting may be responsible for an awful lot of the discrepancy we see in forum discussions.

Hope that works for you: it would be a breath of fresh air for you to be somewhat appeased, even if grudgingly and only for 5 minutes. :2thumbsup:

actually with 1.2 things seems to ahve gotten worse in sieges for me. I now have to order each individual unit to a spot anywhere otherwise they will stop moving completely, some units just freeze and don't move again for the whole siege.... getting stuck in silly place in the city, like stopping moving in the middle of the road, this has mostly been with archers crossbowmen and taking off the skirmish option seems to help somewhat. I swear it didn't do this in 1.1

still terribly frustrating and I lose a fair amount of archers that I shouldn't have lost, but anyway.

Patch makes the game slightly better (mainly due to shield bug fix, 2H fix and siege pathfinding fix) but it is still a looong way from good:

- Battle AI is still basically inept and frequently passive (with horrible consistency if you set it to defender in a custom battle...)

- Deploying properly when defending a siege is practically impossible due to needing about 5 feet between any man and a wall

- No effort was made whatsoever to balance any units...if you don't think balance is whacked, just check out the difference in stats of Poland's 2 main missile troops and then the difference in cost. This is one of many examples of similarly priced units of the same basic type having huge disparities in effectiveness at the same task.

- Campaign AI still builds low tech armies all the time. It's so fun being the world's only superpower and crushing stack after stack after meaningless stack of mercenary crossbowmen and peasants...it really is...

So yeah, they've fixed some critical issues. Woohoo. The game still has about as much challenge in SP as Snap vs a deaf mute. I simply cannot fathom how I could lose a campaign unless I deliberately sabotaged myself. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the patch has made things EASIER. Now spearmen can actually hold out for a few seconds, I can make significant armies earlier and easier.

Like Rome, Med 2 looks great, sounds great and, for the first few days, was enjoyable. But when you dig a little beneath the surface, what you basically have is an RPG, where you are the emperor of a small country that rises to be a great empire, not a strategy game. You're not playing against the AI, you're just playing. And, personally, I don't find that to be much fun.

LOL, if anything was well defined in Law, you wouldnt need Lawyers.

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Originally Posted by PutCashIn

LOL, if anything was well defined in Law, you wouldnt need Lawyers.

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If politicians had to do their own taxes, we would have had tax reform long ago! :2thumbsup: :laugh4:


sorry for the spam.

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Originally Posted by SoxSexSax

The game still has about as much challenge in SP as Snap vs a deaf mute. I simply cannot fathom how I could lose a campaign unless I deliberately sabotaged myself.

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I'm finding the level of challenge good. I follow some houserules (e.g. avoid rushing or excessive sacking/exterminating) but don't sabotage myself. I've given up my latest English campaign as too hard (I want to do it right next time). The Mongols have arrived and my crusaders just lost Antioch to a rebellion. France is as powerful as ever, and has been joined by Germany, Denmark, Spain and Portugal in fighting me on the continent.

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But when you dig a little beneath the surface, what you basically have is an RPG, where you are the emperor of a small country that rises to be a great empire, not a strategy game.

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Tastes differ. For me, it's the RPG/strategic layer of M2TW that is rather dull. I'm finding the battles, always the standout feature of the TW series, are as good as ever.

"I'm finding the battles, always the standout feature of the TW series, are as good as ever."

Shame gs doesnt do them justice, shame :-|.

To keep discussions on-topic, 1.2, as requested, here's something I don't understand.

I waited for the patch to be released 2 weeks ago, got ready, checked net connection and everything. Then a strange 1.2 semi-official version showed up, just to be immediately withdrawn. I decided to wait for the official one, as it seemed almost everything in the patch was basically okay, otherwise they wouldn't post it in the first place, right? Honestly, I thought it was only a matter of hours.

4 days later I left for a short holiday and got back today. Checked the Guild... Still no official patch. Also, I couldn't find (maybe didn't search enough, I dunno...) any official statement about this delay.

What's going on? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Vlad Tzepes

What's going on? :inquisitive:

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people are playing the unofficial 1.02... that's what's going on :yes: and dead silence from CA as to the official release.

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Originally Posted by econ21

I'm finding the level of challenge good. I follow some houserules (e.g. avoid rushing or excessive sacking/exterminating) but don't sabotage myself. I've given up my latest English campaign as too hard (I want to do it right next time).

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But isn't this an admission that the game itself doesn't provide an adequate challenge?

I am playing the "unofficial" 1.2, and while the AI is definitely improved in terms of recruiting quality troops (but not without remaining problems like massive peasant/catapult armies) and battlemap passivity (also still with problems), it is still not aggressive or focused enough on the strategy map to make it possible for the player to be wiped out.

I notice two things in particular in this regard:

1) The AI seems to have a delay in reacting to having its cities attacked. Time and again I will beseige a city and watch the AI, on his next turn, move a nearby large support army off somewhere else toward some other multi-turn objective, ignoring me. Sometimes it will turn around and try to help NEXT turn, but by then it's usually too late.

2) Every time I see the AI move an army out of a city, it always steps out to the west of the city first no matter which direction the army is going next. It will often merge multiple stacks together in this spot, and I am guessing that this is a sort of (really bad) technique of establishing a "waypoint" built in to help facilitate making larger stacks before the units go on to do other things.

This might seem small, but it's very dumb AI and it costs the AI a lot of movement points. I also suspect that this might have something to do with the odd prioritization of AI stack movement on the map, as perhaps stacks have a protocol to move toward these one-tile-west-of-the-city muster spots before they do anything else.

I have played a short campaign as England and a long campaign as Sicily with the patch (both on vh/vh), and while the start was a bit more difficult, my eventual dominance was never in doubt.

Like you, I have been pondering some "house rules" to impose upon myself to make the game more challenging, but I know from experience that this will not be enough. The patch is a step forward, but extensive patching/modding is still going to be required to bring this up to the standards of Shogun and Medieval 1.

One other thing - in the Sicily campaign the Mongols arrived but never seemed to take any cities. I had one diplomat in the area, and as he followed the Mongol stacks around I saw that they were just roaming about Turkey, making regions go rebel but not taking a single city in about 50 years. The Mongols and Turks were at war, but the Mongol stacks would path back and forth each turn all around the eastern Turkish provinces and I never saw them attack anything.