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And "Count" is a legal efficiency that refers to all Counts of the Reich, whether they are normal Counts, Crusader Counts, Rainbow Horseshoe Counts, or Terrible Rabid Alpine Chicken Counts. A Count is a Count, I don't care how many words you put in front of it!
Yes but the law cares. The law makes that distinction however much you wish it were not so. If you believe there is a dispute in the law, then appeal to the Kaiser to arbitrate a rules dispute. Or maybe the Prince can do it in the Kaiser's absence.
Either way, this issue seems to be unresolvable without legislation or an arbitration. Provide one or both of those or move on.
"Well my dear brother. Arent there anyone here who represents the Kaiser when he is away? Or cant the Kaiser of Holy Roman empire afford clerk´s to write down what the nobles are saying?"
Helmut sits down mumbling to himself
"Incompetent, the lot of you."
Helmut, although Jan may not seem like the ideal choice for his position I have strong faith in him and the Kaiser obviously shares this faith. Jan has fought exceptionally well in the Holy Land since his arrival and has been a valuable asset to the Kingdom of Outremer. It would not be wise to contest his position as I can think of no better candidate for the job.
Right, that's just %^$@ing it!!
Will someone second CA 12.2!!!??
We clearly need it.
Jan I agree with the wording about setting build queue's if there is no COUNT.
Can someone shed light on how a noble becomes a Crusader Count in order to qualify as a House representative in Outremer!!??
In my mind if there is no Crusader Count to govern the province then fine, the King, as the legislation wording states, should then set the queue. What I will not have is the ability of the King to assign someone else as Governor of a province that is MINE.
It can sit vacant until a Duke is prepared to agree with one of his nobles to go out to Outremer as the House representative.
That should solve this I believe!! At least then the Dukes are able to control and NEVER lose their inherent right to govern their specific holding in Outremer.
Can that be a possible solution?
Jens Hummel:
Helmut, I quite agree. Incidentally, I believe that there is a piece of legislation, CA 12.2, that still needs seconding that I believe meshes with your opinion perfectly...
That is the weakest thing I have heard given your attempt at distinguishing between the two as a defence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
Nice try, but no dice. You want to live by technicalities Jan then you can die by technicalities.
Something my own lawyers have come to love in me.
For goodness sake! Let's get to the more important issues, like not getting killed by our enemies! I second CA 12.2!
I don't care of the wording or how we destroy Vilnius, just that the city is taken and the worms inside are murdered.
Duke Arnold,
Your position is far more sensible than Lothars. As for your question as to how someone becomes a Crusader Count, the Charter empowers me to bestow the title each Diet. I bestow the title according to House accept with Edessa.
If you disagree with CA 12.5, then simply vote against it. Or don't vote at all. But at least your not contesting my right to set build queues in Outremer.
I just disagree with your wording that I set build queues that are not occupied by "counts" because that is not supported in the Outremer Charter. Again, I welcome having this issue resolved by arbitration.
I agree, let us vote on this issue an be done with it. I request that two Electors second Charter Amendment 12.7 and that everyone else votes for it, to ensure that the proper intent of Outremer is restored.
Lothar, your CA will still not provide for Dukes to build in Outremer. Since this is a dispute with the rules, I suggest we have the Kaiser or the Prince rule on it.
Now whats next to talk about?
Very well, Jan. I was attempting to keep the Amendment minimal to prevent from adding yet another rule to the Charter. On the off chance that any Electors can actually follow your incoherent logic, I shall alter the Amendment to make it more blatant.
Charter Amendment 12.7: Clause 6 of the Charter of Outremer (Charter Amendment 9.1) shall be amended as follows:
Quote:
6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The Dukes and the Emperor will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count which is allocated to their control.
King Jan,
That is what I am saying.
I wont support CA 12.5, as it is going to sever ties with the House's and in affect goes against the whole theme of the Charter in my view.
For example:
If there is no count for you to allocate to the House specified Province of Damascus, then it is vacant and you set the queue as the legislation states.
Your wording allows you to put another noble from another house in Damascus and that is completely unlawful as it is my Province as Duke of Austria.
That is why CA 12.5 should not go through.
CA 12.4, I can live with, but with a limited time on the appointment. The Kaiser could re confirm the postion every 20 years for example.
Please note the original CA had the position as a 10 year appointment re set at the beginning of each Diet session by the Kaiser.
That's about the final take I am having on this subject.
Hans shakes his head at the deliberations
Good lords,
Instead of bashing each other's heads in, how about finding some kind of middle ground that everyone can be happy with?
I do not think Jan would have a problem with amending 12.5 to read that in the case that no governor can be found as crusader count for an outremer region, the Duke whose house the settlement is allocated to may chose to either let the King settle the queues or allow him to appoint a governor from another house.
"Well it seems that Von Kastillien did the deed. I dont think i have anything to add, specially becouse my lazy servants cant provide me with enough information about anything these days. I will come back to vote and then get back to Russia."
Helmut leaves the Diet. As he reaches the stairs outside the building,he violently pushes his head scribe straight down the stairs and then charges his watch dog, Jan against the mangled scribe. Once he reaches the poor man Helmut says with a determined voice.
" Make me look ridiculous once more, maggot and i will have you skinned alive."
*Fritz rises to his feet again*
von Runstede, I note you have not answered my question regarding the Edicts proposed by my brother Ansehelm. On the other hand, I can see why in the midst of this flood of pre-litigation.
Gentlemen, let me sum up what I am seeing here.
We have endless legal arguments due, in most part, to the appointment of my cousin Jan to the Kingship of Outremer against the wishes of our beloved comrade King Salier.
We have more proposals on laws than on actions in this Diet, a situation that will lead to the weakening of the Empire as we squabble over technicalities and let our armies suffer for it.
*Fritz pauses and closes his eyes for a moment, takes a breath, then launches into a fist-waving tirade*
And we have an Emperor who sits in Eastern luxury, basking in the smoke of who knows what Eastern herbs, relieving himself in the embrace of who knows what Byzantine women! I cannot think of a worse situation all the way back to Marcus Antonius and that wench Cleopatra!
Brother he may be, but his indolence in Byzantium with the infidels *Fritz shudders* gives me full rights to denounce his wicked ways!
*Fritz seats himself heavily, glowers around the room for a moment, then resumes looking at his feet*
Shaking his head with a large grin at the departing figure of Helmut Arnold continues unfazed after Fritz's small tantrum
I second CA 12.7.
I would certainly be more favourable to Jan's CA if he was to change the wording to what Hans just suggested, but it must remove the ability of the King to appoint Counts from outside the House it is allocated to.
Looking at Fritz with a look of pained amazement
"Denounce his wisked ways"....where do you come up with such Bollocks Fritz?
Lothar,
I am pleased to see that you are finally admitting that you were wrong. Your need to put forward a CA shows how weak your initial argument was. I will of course vote against what would be a micro-management nightmare but I applaud that you are finally following the law instead of just making stuff up. I am still more than willing to have the rules dispute arbitrated by the Kaiser or Prince is your CA does not pass. Or, they could rule now and make your need for a CA moot. Either way, I am satisified that we are getting around to what we can do legally instead of what we wish to do in our dreams.
Hans,
The Outremer Charter already provides for me to set build queues in crusader counties without crusader counts. CA 12.5 would not change that. Even if it passes, I still need the people. Without the people, I still set the build queues.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Is that not the entire point of the alternate wording I provided? To give Dukes a choice over whether they wish to see their county given to some noble from another house rather than having the King manage it in case no crusader count from their house can be found? It is would be fair for both parties and certainly appeal to a larger majority of this diet.
I will second CA 12.7 as well, I do not wish to have Bavarian Land ruled by an Imperial apointee. This does not mean that I will not listen to the needs of the KOTO, I look foreward to working with him to ensure the safety of Jerusalem.
Hans,
Damn that is a sensible idea. I fully support it as a compromise. Now, to amend the CA, would I have to send it back to the Outremer chambers for new pre-seconds? I'm thinking of just using my one personal edict to do it.
Hans that is not my concern.
The abillity for the King to set build queue's is already set.
What I am not agreeing with is the wording being changed to allow the King to allocate the Austrian House Province of Damascus to anyone else apart from an Austrian Noble. If there is none available then it is to remain vacant and the King can decide what to build.
THAT is why your wording is not good enough for me.
I do not think amending a proposal needs re-seconding by precedent.
Now, it seems that we have all talked sense and can return to the usual diet business, yes?
It has come to my attention that there is no CA calling for Ajaccio and Cagliari's incorporation into the empire. I assume our Bavarian friends would wish to fix this before the end of the diet?
//[edit]
Duke Arnold, that is exactly what my amendment to CA 12.5 would mean: The Duke may choose if he will allow the King to appoint another or rather the King simply leave it vacant. What this changes from the status-quo is that the county would not remain vacant indefinitely if the Duke wishes to have another rule it.
Duke Arnold,
With Hans's suggestion, you the Duke would have one of two choices regarding Damascus if there is no Austrian Crusader Count.
1.) Let me set the build queues as I wish.
2.) Let me assign a non-Austrian crusader count.
If you do not want a non-Austrian in control of Outremer, then just choose option 1. This allows me a little more flexibility while giving the Dukes more say in how their Ducal territories in Outremer are managed.
What do you think about this?
Gert:
I have not heard any question you asked me Herr Fritz, this Diet is going to fast for someone with my old age.
I believe that such a CA has been properly prepared, just it has yet to be presented to the Diet.
Jan, you could always work with Arnold to set a build que that both of you are happy with, I don't believe that those are the only 2 option.
*Fritz looks up from his reverie to stare at Arnold for a moment, then notes Gert's mouth moving but makes a sign that he can't hear over the clamour. Fritz quickly inks a note and sends it to Gert with a page. Then he looks again at Arnold, slowly shakes his head and resumes reading something large and weighty*
Duke Gerhard,
True, but I am going by what the law would provide. There would need to be "someone" in charge of the build queue. I will not build by committee. According to this CA, the build queue will be goverened by, a house Crusader Count, me, or a non-house Crusader Count. No me/Duke decisions. I'll take suggestions but no province is governed by more than one person at a single time.
Well, It seems like it's Jan's way or the highway....
It is a good thing that the Reich has invested heavily in road production.
In the light of these events, I wish to withdraw my secondment of charter amendment 12.5 as it has become rather...pointless.
Charter Amendment 12.8: Ajaccio and Cagliari are incorporated into the Reich. The Chancellor is directed to trade Cagliari to any foe if it can bring about a peace between our nations
Proposed: Lothar Steffen
Seconded: Mathais Steffen, Gerhard Steffen
Duke Gerhard and Hans,
I am confused, no province in the Reich has more than one person controlling the build queue. While I would work with the Duke in question. It would still have to be up to one person to decide what gets built. Hans's amendment to my CA would provide for the Duke to choose whether it be governed by myself or a non-house crusader count if there is no house crusader count. I am not sure where the "my way or hi-way" comes in. And I am sad that Hans has felt it necessary to withdraw his support of something he himself suggested. I guess running for Chancellor is awfully important to him.
Jan,
The point is that with my amendment to your idea of 12.5, it would have created a middle ground. However, you must understand that if your attitude towards other esteemed members of this diet is so hostile that you prevent its passage even after my attempt to aid you in salvaging it, then I cannot continue to stand behind it as a supporter. This has little to do with the race, but more with being cordial and explaining matters with a cool head. I do not think anyone here would appreciate being talked to in the tone in which you addressed the Dukes earlier.
*Shrug*
It is done. CA 12.5 is unseconded and I instruct the scribes to make clear that it is so. Now that is behind us so let us continue on to other matters.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
A wild-eyed ink stained Scribe wanders into the Diet and speaks in a strained voice.
My goods lords, the list of legislation has been updated.
Please, no more, I have children. When will it end?
Mercy!
He runs screaming.
Thank you, Scribe. Will you do one last service and alter CA 12.7 so that the last "is" is replaced with "are"? I do not want to be responsible for further butchering the grammar in the Charter.
Are we done with the Charter Amendments? Thanks to that poor scribe, we can clearly see something wrong.
That something is the amount of edicts compared to the Charter Amendments.
There are 3 edicts, and 8 CAs.
Does anyone else find that ... abnormal?
I hereby officially rescind CA 12.4 and CA 12.5.
I will instead use my one personal edict to put out on the floor:
Charter Amendment 12.9:
Clause 3.10 is amended to read as follows (changes in bold):
Charter Amendment 11.6 is amended to read as follows (changes in strikeout):Quote:
3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)
Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
King: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1
Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)
The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.
This legislation ensures that the King will have as much influence as his Crusader Counts while making sure that it is not a guaranteed lifetime appointment. With the stricken out language gone, the old legislation that is still in the Charter will enact. Which means the rest of the stuff in CA 11.6 stays but I will be confirmed by the Kaiser at every Diet. The rest of CA 11.6 is good legislation and should not be removed. I will also remind all of you that making the King appointment a session-by-session appointment was the will of the Kaiser when he made his "rule dispute" ruling the other night. This legislation codifies that wish into law.Quote:
Charter Amendment 11.6: The position of King of Outremer is appointed by the emperor.This appointment lasts for the duration of the emperors reign or the Kings lifetime, whichever is shorter.The King of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new King is appointed by the emperor. If the King of Outremer is deemed incapable of the assignment, he may be impeached by the emperor and 2 Dukes.
I hope this compromise will prove more palatable to all involved. I welcome any questions any of you may have about this.
Cries of anguish can be heard from the Scribes section as Matthias speaks.
I will second CA 12.9
Elberhard: I will second Charter Amendment 12.9.
And then perhaps the screaming inside my head will stop...
Please make it stop...
Thank you Ebelhard but may I ask,
Why is your head screaming?
Do you need a drink? The tavern is just down the street.
Jens Hummel:
If CA 12.2 is passed then you won't have to worry about this problem in the future.
CA 12.2 will help stop your head from screaming? No offense Jens but I prefer beer for that.
*Lothar raises an eyebrow yet again.*
Well, well. It seems some sense has finally come to Outremer. I will not deny that the King of Outremer should be given more authority than the common Crusader Count. An influence of 2 seems proper to me, as it is above his subordinates, yet below the Dukes themselves. This is as it should be. Furthermore, the abolishment of the appointment for life shows that Jan is truly considering the issue from an objective stance and not exclusively from personal interest.
Therefore I shall also second Charter Amendment 12.9.
*Lothar nods curtly to Jan von Hamburg.*
King Jan, let it not be said that I am totally inflexible.
That said, I still do urge the Diet to vote in favor of Charter Amendment 12.7. As we seem intent to rectify some of the legal conundrums that have abounded since the creation of Outremer, it would be good to finally establish that the Outremer provinces truly are part of the Houses to which they were originally given. Charter Amendment 12.7 ensures that the intent behind the creation of Outremer is upheld.
Jens Hummel:
Or we could eliminate the source of the friggin' screaming altogether.
Arnold
With that I have one more comment.
BEER!!!
Bring me and this entire Chamber gallons of beer!!!
I will cover the cost, just bring it now!!!
With that a stream of page men enter carrying every conceivable type of alcohol known to mankind.
And before anyone says there is a tavern down the road, keep in mind I don't #%^$$#ing care, and I couldn't make it that far without a drink anyway!!
Count Lothar,
I appreciate your words. I still am not in favor of CA 12.7 since I wish to have the ability to keep setting build queues when there are no counts, which the King has always had. I prefer that the Dukes send me Crusader Counts if they can spare them. If there are plenty of counts, then I will have no extra build queues to worry about. But, it is going for a vote and we will see what happens. If it does pass, I wish to speak to every Duke/Steward present so we can work out a building plan for Outremer.
That being said, these CA's already have their seconds but I will voice my support. I support CA 12.6 and CA 12.8. Everyone could use two armies to cover our growing fronts. And with the sacrifices Bavaria made to take Ajaccio, I think it deserves to be incorporated into the Reich.
Jan is interrupted by Duke Arnold's cry for beer.
Beer!?! Whoo hoo!
Jan grabs a mug
King Jan, I would like to point out that if CA 12.7 passes, you will not need to consult with the Dukes or the Kaiser on build queues unless there are insufficient Crusader Counts to govern all of the cities in Outremer. As it stands, you have assigned all provinces to a Crusader Count except Edessa. Therefore the only possible area of outside influence would be the Kaiser's ability to choose what is built in the city and that city alone. Even that would be eliminated if you could attract another Elector to go East.
Count Lothar,
You are absolutely correct. But, I wish to get the Dukes involved right away. What if we have a sudden death in battle of a Crusader Count? I would rather have the Dukes work with me before hand and have them up to speed on Outremer affairs than try to get them up to speed at the last minute. The Dukes have stated that they want to be more involved with Outremer affairs. Four of the provinces are their land after all. And I think that would be better for everyone regardless if CA 12.7 passes or not. A meeting after the Diet would allow me to show them maps and unit dispositions. They can track the progress of the war effort. A lot of men and money is going into Outremer. It is only fair to show them what becomes of it. We keep telling them that the war with the Mongols is dire and important. But, to them, it is so far away. Including them more will help them understand why we are there. If they feel they have a stake, they will be happier with this whole situation.
While it is I who am in command out there, that doesn't mean I do not value the Dukes' opinion.
King Jan,
It wont take me very long to provide you with directions regarding Damascus should Lord Zirn not recover...god forbid that!!
I already manage four provinces myself. You are the adminsitrator and King of the region.
All would ask in the event there is no Count from Austria in Outremer is a briefing on the situation and a recommendation. You would get your response from me is short order as part of my overall adminsitrative responsibilities.
Duke Arnold,
I appreciate you laying out what you would want and need regarding this matter. I figure it would be better to provide an opportunity to get more information and have you simply disregard what you do not want to know at your whim. Better to provide too much information than too little. But now that I know your preferred administrative model, I will keep my reports to you to be short and curt in the event that there is no Austrian Crusader Count.
Jens Hummel:
Please, feel free to to keep your speeches in the Diet short and curt too, von Hamburg!
*He bursts out laughing for several minutes after this. The scent of alcohol is wafting throughout the Diet chambers.*
Jan smells alcohol.
A beer would be nice right now.
Wolfgang Hummel stands and addresses the Diet.
Mein electors, I will not delay you for long. But I would fain speak.
Many of you have rightly condemned me for mein actions in the Levant. However, I ask to not be tarred with the same brush as mein father, Chancellor Hummel.
I intend to fully listen to the Dukes if elected, and offend no House intentionally. Of course, I shall rule the gut of the Reich overall, but I will not favour or spurn any particular House.
Concerning foreign policy, I would take the sword to the Sicilians. They are weak and spread out, and crippling them now would save us much trouble later. They are also fighting the Moors, who are currently preventing the Spanish from crossing the strait of Gibraltar and thus into Africa.
The French are able to be held, thanks to the strenuous efforts of Duke Frederich of Swabia, and King Davy of England. The Scottish king also has landed on the continent, and I propose that we ally ourselves with the Scots.
Edict 12.4: "The Scots are to be approached with an offer of an alliance. No more than 5,000 florins may be exchanged in order to bring this about."
If I am elected, no direct invasion of Spain shall take place. The Iberian peninsular is too far away at this present time to mount an effective campaign.
I also intend to strengthen the eastern frontier against the Poles and Russians. Extra men, if needed, shall be speedily sent to Thorn where the Franconians shall decide where they be sent.
In Italy, I shall take steps to secure our lucrative cities of Venice, Genoa, Milan, and Florence, from Sicilian attack. Garrisons shall be strengthened, and walls kept in a defensible state.
In Saxony, His Holiness allowing, I shall launch excursions north right into the heart of Denmark. I will construct a fort blocking the shallows from Denmark into the land of Swedes, and blockade the Danish ports.
In the Outremer, I will coordinate greatly with the King and his counts to effectively manage the Mongol invasion. They are the ones who know the lie of the land, and are most able to defeat the Mongols.
I will also take steps to prevent our allies, the Portuguese, from succumbing to either the French or Spanish. Such allies are rare, and cannot afford to be abandoned.
I will also maintain an effective intelligence service, so that the Reich need not be suprised by any enemy. Spies shall be sent into all our enemies' lands that we may assess their strength and their weak points.
Finally, I will also build up our navies in both the Mediterranean and Baltic seas. We must not allow ourselves to be defeated at sea.
Thank you, mein electors, for your time.
Wolfgang bows to the Kaiser and resumes his seat.
Jan walks in and kind of just looks at Wolfgang with an amused smirk.
As a matter of book keeping, Acre no longer has a Crusader Count. Count Hans has expressed his wish to return to the Reich as soon as the war with the Mongols is stabilized.
Shaking his head in wonderment, the Duke of Austria leans foward locking a deathly gaze on Wolfgang
You there!!!??
The one over there talking about running for Chancellor!!
Pointing at Wolfgang directly
Are you forgetting something or do you simply want me to ensure you lose any chance you may have of giving a good account of yourself in this election!!??
Jan hears Duke Arnold. Curious, he goes over the transcript of Wolfgang's manifesto. Jan breaks out in laughter.
Wow, it would indeed be difficult to get elected when you ignore roughly a quarter of the Reich in your Election planks.
*A somber Fritz von Kastilien stands slowly*
Though discussion has died down, I must say a word on CA 12.2, in the hope of influencing some of the Electors present.
Although I agree in spirit with this motion, surely it will open up a huge new field for exactly what it is attempting to legislate against -- confusing the issue.
*Fritz holds up a piece of parchment and squints at it*
Who decides what legal matters are "simple" and which are complex? Who decides what "over-complicating" is, and when does it become "excessively over-complicating"?
Is any question against any law going to be found "excessively over-complicating"? Or are only certain laws complex enough to avoid this law's restrictions? Which ones? Shall we then pass more resolutions marking some laws as simple and others as not simple? And how will we contain the inevitably heated and dreadful discussions that arise from such decisions?
These are all rhetorical questions at this point, my friends, and none of us need answer them at this time. But if CA 12.2 passes, they will no longer be rhetorical questions. They will be questions this body has to deal with. And I for one would rather spend my time on other pursuits.
These are indeed good questions Count Fritz. I suspect one way to deal with the legislation, if it passes, would be to say "I'm sorry" after every single mention of legal matters. The law would say you would be banned until apologizing so that is one way around that.
*chuckles*
Jens Hummel:
I shall ensure that this is the last time you ever make fun of one of my legal proposals, sir.
You really need to grow a thicker skin Count Jens. Having your legislation nitpicked apart, disected, and ridiculed is part of our process. It happens to all of us to varying degrees.
And I wasn't totally joking. We do need to figure out how to deal with CA 12.2 if it passes.
While I would not support 12.2 due to its vagueness, I personally would support its inherent message.
Jens Hummel:
Legislation is not ridiculed, for that is a most unchivalrous thing to do, especially for one who is the King of Outremer. People simply explain the faults of it but they do not ridicule it. It is clear that you simply have it in for me, and this I will remember.
Count Hans,
I agree with you that its inherent message is good. But, as legislation, it is next to useless. Without the mechanics to describe what is to be punished and how, it will just kind of sit there. The way it is worded, the work-around I mentioned should be enough to get past it.
Count Jens,
Remember what you wish. I do not "have it in for you". I remember when I was young, outspoken, and brash in the Diet. It seems like it was only yesterday.... Wait, it was only yesterday.
Anyways, despite what you may think, nothing you said has actually hurt me. What you have said may not have presented you in the best light to the rest of the Diet however. I only hope you don't direct your misplaced aggression towards someone less patient than myself.
Jens if you cannot handle the mild and justified critiscism of your legislation made by King Jan and Count Hans then you are not ready to participate in this Diet. Just explain to them why they're wrong, don't threaten them.
*Fritz sighs heavily, and stands again*
I believe, friends, that the gentlemen *he nods at Jens* was not reacting to a criticism of his legislation. I heard him say nothing at all rebutting my words. Rather, he was reacting to the tone in which Jan chose to express himself. There is an obvious difference between criticism and ridicule. Criticism is centred on discussion of specific problems. Ridicule involves less... concrete, ah, details. I chose one route, Jan chose the other.
It would obviously be better if we simply let the matter drop and concentrated on discussion of the legislation rather than discussion of the Electors.
Count Fritz,
You speak wisdom my cousin. I will try to improve the discourse of the Diet by embracing healthy criticism and avoiding ridicule.
*nods his head to the Count out of respect*
I will also take this oppurtunity to publicly apologize to Count Jens for ridiculing his legislation. I will endeavor to threat him and his ideas with the respect they both deserve.
I will second edict 12.4 (the scottish alliance one), Although I have no strong feelings either way, I believe that all legislation deserves to be voted upon by the diet.
I don't think that we should risk our english alliance to accomidate the scots though.
I will follow my father's lead and also second Edict 12.4, if only to ensure that it is put to the vote.
Elberhard: All right, the polls are up.
I must express gratitude again to the industrious scribes of Matthias Steffen (Overknight :bow:) for keeping us up to date with the proposed legislation. All mistakes are, of course, his - I mean, mine.
This full session of the Diet is closed although Electors are free to continue to listen to the sound of their own voices as usual.
Message from Ansehelm von Kastillien, as literally spoken out by him
Meine Herren
I am extremely !@#$&% off by how Outremer thinks it can do business. It's King thinks it's an !@#$&% house and that he can take away nobles from proper Duchies. Let it be !@#$&% well known to him that Outremer is not a House and can and will never be one. Whatever he wants he is not taking away nobles from Franconia, whatever he wishes. A Franconian does not need to show his !@#$&% obedience to the Outremer, as it's merely a tool, and it's King should !@#$&% well realise that. A Franconian is a Franconian, not a citizen of the Outremer, I suggest the King of the Outremer stops thinking he has a proper house, let him !@#$&% realise that he's part of the entire Reich, that he's not on his own.
I did not came this !@#$&% way to Moscow for nothing, I did this for Franconia, for the Reich. And what do you see while you are away, !@#$&% briberies by the King of the Outremer so he can get his way in things.
The late Kings would turn in their grave would they here this, they realised that their job was only minor, that they ran a part of the Reich, but that they had to realise that they had Duchies to keep in mind. This King thinks he is above all Duchies, that he is a !@#$&% Duke.
I repeat, I did not fight my entire !@#$&% way to Moscow to see some low trick being pulled off.
I suggest that the King realises this, if he doesn't he might lose the support of one of the Reichs Duchies.
Duke Ansehelm, !@#$&% annoyed
After hearing the message, Jan looks puzzled.
I am surprised that Duke Ansehelm thinks I somehow stole his Counts. I am not even sure how I would be able to do that. It is true, I did contact a couple of Franconians. They are family after all. But they were already intent on voting the way they voted. Once I saw that they already were going to vote a certain way, I wished them luck and bid them farewell. I don't even have much to offer them.
There is one exception to this. And that is Dieter. I did specifically ask Dieter to vote a certain way. He is a Crusader Count and I did not mind telling him my opinion on certain legislation. Dieter has made his own choice to be in Outremer. I did not steal him. He can leave Outremer whenever he wishes as can any person out there. Yes, while they are out there, I do ask certain things of people. But once they are off my shores, my influence ends rather abruptly.
Yes, I did vote for the Vilnius edict so Peter would vote for CA 12.9. But, I am not sure how this is "stealing" people. Many of us "horse trade" our votes. As for offering Franconians anything, I can assure you that there are no new nobles coming to Outremer at this time. I wish this were not true, for I would love to have more people, but it is fact. I haven't even spoken to my brother since he appeared in the Diet so I have no idea why he voted the way he did.
I do not see Steward Hans, Duke Gerhard, or Duke Arnold having this problem with their Counts. Duke Ansehelm obviously did not convince his people to vote the way he wanted. Is this my fault? As for past Kings, I remember King Salier specifically asking us Crusader Counts to vote a certain way so its not some new idea.
I am sorry if Duke Ansehelm thinks that I am somehow usurping his Ducal authority but I do not even know how I can do that. Except for Dieter, I have no power to tell any Franconian to do anything. If I did, they would laugh at me and they should. This is a matter of free will, not coercion.
Gert von Runstede stands
If you, as Duke or King, for that matter, want support in your Ducal edicts you go to a Duke, you don't bribe just one person, as that is undermining Ducal power.
I for one thing know, by being close to the Duke, that this is not only because of this Diet Session, but also because of the fact that you consider yourself to be more loyal to the Outremer than Franconia. Even when you were just a CC.
Now as a King you can be that, but that also means you do not belong to the house of Franconia any longer.
I have said, what I can say. Duke Ansehelm is not here now to go in to your puny accusations, but if I were you I'd start preparing for his return instead of getting drunk in the Taverns of Rome. Being a King, or a Duke or a Kaiser, is a responsible job, one cannot drown himself in alcohol every night, one has to have priorities, called the Reich. They are more important than fun, that made me commander of Duke Ansehelms infantry force, I am not one of the most important men in the Teutonic Army because I decided to go drinking every night.
That all said, I'm leaving, some people do still wish to protect the Reich instead of going for their own personal glory
Gert von Runstede walks out of the Diet
I did not bribe anyone. And I write these people because they are family just like you are. I might not be part of the house, but blood is blood. I am not sure how I am "undermining Ducal power" by writing my cousins. Your their Duke. Its your job to get them to do what you want. I can't do it for you.
As for drinking, thats my business. Heck, most of us here get plowed.
Athalfwolf stands
I think he means, Jan, is that it is going to your head. That, can mean a few diffrent things in a way.
But please correct me if I am wrong, Duke Ansehelm, is not bribing a common thing in Rome?
Athalfwolf lets out a long laugh
Why, it is been a natraul thing in German and Roman politics for hundreds of years. And our, own buiness, is no longer our own, I think I can safely say King Jan. Anything you do from here on will be closely complained about.
Count Athawolf,
I have endeavored to not let things go to my head and I pray the good Lord for strength in that struggle. Am I perfect in that? Far from it. But what I do still fail to see, is what I have done wrong in this specific matter. The Franconians did not vote exactly the way Anshehelm would have wished. How much of that can really be my fault? I can offer people all I want but they could just as simply refuse. I could coerce until I was blue in the face, but without any power in the Reich proper to back it up, I would just be spinning my wheels. I think people voted for their own reasons and I do not know what those were.
Thank you for provoking these thoughts my Count,
*Jan nods in respect*
Arnold
Anshehelm is certainly a little upset it seems.
I'm wondering whether he is getting frustrated that the Dukes really have not ability to prevent their own Nobles from going to Outremer.
Duke Arnold,
And the whole Diet as well,
Do you have any thoughts as how the Dukes could assign people to Outremer yet make it where they are not truly gone? As it stands now, it is voluntary as to whether a noble wishes to leave for Outremer. As long as the King and Chancellor agree, there is little the Duke can do. Once in Outremer, the Duke can not do anything about the noble already there. Sure they can take their county back and complain in here, but that is about it. Unless the King and Chancellor agree to send the noble back.
If there is one common theme I have heard this Diet, it is that the Dukes are feeling like they are losing control of something they should not. I have not been sensitive enough to this. So, I will ask now, how can we send people to Outremer, yet make sure they serve their own Duchy. As long as we have a mission in Outremer, there will be a need for people. But, this comes at the expense of the Duchies as Duke Arnold knows full well. For his House suffers because of the lack of manpower.
Will it require legislation? If so, what kind? Do we abandon the Outremer project? I think we shouldn't but if the project has lost support among the Duchies, then we probably should quit. We can only keep doing this if the Duchies continue to pour money and men into that land. I believe we do have a mission in Outremer. And I need the Duchies to help me. I have tried to pretend I could do this without you. But, I have basically been beating my head against the wall. So, I need to do something different. I need to convince all of you that this is all of our project. For the florins that pay for the armies in Outremer come from the farms in Franconia, the ports of Bavaria, the mines in Swabia, and merchants of Venice. The men that fill up the armies come from all over the Reich. Every noble that goes to Outremer, makes it a little harder for those who stay behind.
While I fully admit my own responsibility for this situation, according to the Diet records, this debate has been going on for a long time. If, we all no longer continue to believe that this is our project, then why are we doing this? We either need to agree to continue on, and find a way to do it that satisfies the Duchies, or leave. But the divisiveness that has grown out of this is only hurting us. I would rather we give up and come home than let this argument tear us apart.
The Kaiser has appointed me but then abandoned me to be his lightning rod for criticism. I think he had hoped that I would be a strong bulwark against Ducal power. Or, he just didn't care and spun a wheel of cards with Crusader Counts written on them so he could pick at random. I have no idea. I am tired of being a bulwark against Ducal power because I keep needing the Duchies to do anything at all. So, it seems that the wheel has turned. While I am honored to serve the Reich and the Lord, I had to say all of this. If the Kaiser disapproves of what I am saying, then he can have my resignation.
Thank you
King Jan,
Your comments are timely as the recent round of discussions has certainly elicited a very strong response.
While I've never stopped anyone of my Nobles taking the Cross to Outremer, I believe there is no real way of preventing this.
As a noble that muist initially swear fealty to their Duke, the only recourse a Duke could take against a Count would be to clearly state that the Noble will be stripped of his titles (if bonded)...possibly removing the Knighting given to him by his Duke and ensuring that he would not be allowed back into the House until such time as the Duke is happy to do so.
Before ANYONE even thinks about legislation then FORGET IT.
My house and the Ducal authority given to me by my father is absolute in my mind when it comes to Austrian affairs of state. My only concern is with the running of my Duchy is if the Kaiser were to make comment.
Of course this is the most extreme "example" I can think of and no Duke has even gone close to taking any of these actions. This is main because to date the situation has worked well.
The simplest approach...AND I LIKE SIMPLE...is to have any Noble wishing to take up the Cross to Outremer first require the consent of the Duke in question. This would be fair and just in my view as the Duchy's are where all Nobles of the Reich originate from. No one swears fealty directly to the King of Outremer before that of their Duke.
I don’t think we should abandon Outremer. However, my comments concerning Outremer still hold. Outremer is not a House. It is, in fact, made up from all parts of the original Duchies.
I believe this concept should be strengthened with further wording.
The simply feudal hierarchy of Kaiser, Prinz, Duke, Count, Baron and Elector has been disrupted by the position of King. Therefore this position should be ratified further.
In my view most will agree that the position naturally between Dukes and Counts. The title could be changed and the relationship between the position of Dukes and Counts better explained.
One such mechanism is the approval of Dukes before a member of his house can take the Cross. This reinforces the hierarchy. And other such suggestions clarifying this would also be appropriate.
In the mean time common sense, agreement a civil discourse should get us through to the next Diet session on this topic.
With an evil glint in his eyes…the tone of Arnold voice goes from reasonable to chilling.
That is of course until someone pisses me off and tries to antagonise me. As a Duke, you can do that at your peril.