Imperial Diet VII

*The Duke of Bavaria cocks an eyebrow as he hears his name continually mentioned with regard to the investigation into Kaiser Siegfried's death.*

Electors, surely this avenue of debate is exhausted. I have supplied the Diet with all of the information I was able to produce at the time of that most heinous event. My statements regarding the Milanese assassins are recorded in the Diet records. Unfortunately, all of my personal papers and effects were lost when Florence was sacked by the Byzantines. I have naught but my words to back up my claims. The only other man who conducted an investigation into the assassination was Duke Hans, who is now also deceased. Thus, my words, and the Diet records, are the only information that remains available on the matter. All else is gossip and idle speculation.

I am not ignorant about what is said behind my back. I hear the rumors that I personally arranged for the Kaiser's death with the aid of some 'secret' organization. That is all quite absurd and I suggest that the creators of those rumors look to a career in the theater, as it is surely the stuff of fiction with which to excite the masses. Perhaps Kaiser Siegfried was killed by some Hungarian on a grassy hill?

In any case, whether you believe my words or not, it makes no difference. I have told the truth and you are all free to make up your own minds on the subject. If you believe that I tell the truth, then the matter is done with and it is time to move on. If you believe that I am a liar and a murderer, then you had best state it to me directly. We Bavarians know how to deal with liars and slanderers.

*Lothar turns to one of his squires.*

Boy, go and make sure my sword is sharpened. I may have need of it soon.

I would like to make it absolutely clear that I have no reason to believe any German was complicit in the death of my brother. I myself often found his policies abhorrent, but it is flatly inconceivable to me that an agent of the Reich could have had our own Kaiser harmed.

:egypt:

Hans von Bavaria rushes in. He reviews the notes of a scribe he left behind.

Though it has the necessary seconders, I would like to declare my support, which is of little consequence, for Edict 14.3, and thank the Duke for bringing sense into the Diet.

von Bavaria resumes his seat int the Bavarian section

I did, of course, understand that fully Fritz. You have made it very clear that you believe the Byzantines to be behind the Kaiser's death, not myself or any other Bavarians. My statements were not directed at you; they were intended for the unidentified men who have circulated these slanderous rumors. With hindsight, there is much credibility in your statements about the Greeks. Perhaps the Milanese were themselves working with the Byzantines. Even with their renowned business skills, it did seem strange to me that they were able to raise such a large sum of money so quickly. Unfortunately, with my papers lost and the guilty Milanese noblemen long since dead, not even I would have any way to verify such a claim. I suspect that future generations will still be discussing the matter long after every Elector in this room has ascended, or descended, to their justly earned afterlife.

If my questions have already not been "serious" enough to be taken under your careful consideration, then I am of the opinion that they will never be serious enough to you.

I am done. I have explained my stance. I have explained why. I still think you have waffled on talking about Lutheran complicity in the War of Reformation. I still think you have waffled on why you believe Duke Lothar's evidence is wrong. I still think you have failed to prove why you should be Chancellor over Duke Arnold.

Since I truly believe my words will never be taken seriously by you, for the rest of the Diet, then further discussion is rather pointless. I have made my points and asked my questions. You have danced and danced. The success of your dancing will come out at the ballot box. If your dancing has convinced the majority of the voting power in the Diet, you get to be Chancellor. If your dancing is not suffecient, or turns people off, then you will not get to be Chancellor.

You know what, I don't even think you will be a bad Chancellor. I just believe Duke Arnold would be better than you. And your penchant for revisionist history is one reason why. If you can not take such honest criticism, then you truly need to rethink the whole idea of going into politics.

At least I will tell you what I think to your face. Others will smile at you and scheme behind your back. I have more respect for you than that, even though we might not agree on history. I might be Catholic, but I do not consider myself anti-Lutheran. All I have wanted is an acknowledgement that fanatacism on both sides helped cause the War of Reformation. As well as proof that the Byzantines killed our Kaiser.

Ludwig rises, the strain of several days of Dieting clearly starting to show (OOC: God I'm tired :P)

1. Young von Essen speaks with a conviction that belies his years, and I thoroughly applaud any discussion he brings to the diet, and do not believe others should shut him down, so long as it is discussion. I too would like to hear from most honourable Fritz some of the answers that this young noble seeks, and stress, as he does, that we ask not out of disrespect or animosity, but simply to get a succinct answer. More manner, gentlemen, and less art!

2. Duke Arnold, could you please, as Fritz has, comment on your policy on Antwerp, should you become chancellor?

Dearest friend Lothar, Péter says icily, the fact is that I did not grant Hamburg to Fritz von Kastilien because Stettin was his prior county and I assumed he would like it back. Also, being a freehold count, I have no authority to remove it from his power. Were he to give it up, as he did, I would give him a different land, one I am deliberating at this time.

I will not suffer criticism of my rule of Franconia from one who donates all of his house's treasury to rebellion.

In the spirit of forgiving, old friend, I second Edict 14.3.

Dieter, upon hearing Count Bohmen speak, is simply shocked silent. Finally he just gives a nod of appreciation towards the Count.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: No problem Ramses! No harm, no foul. :beam:

Arnold:

Antwerp...I'm not sure why it is so vital to single out that particular city amongst many others.

My thoughts:

Excellent gunpowder units, not especially profitable given it's location, dangerously close to the front lines and has no garrison to speak of.

I'd would say that it will be under threat in the near future depending on how you Ludwig, fair in defending Bruge.

In all likely hood it may fall to the French.

I thank you for your answer

you are correct, of course, Duke Arnold. But being the other half of Flanders, it is important to me.

Very well, as there is common interest among more than one elector, I will attempt to find those questions in the transcript and cover them adequately per Sir von Essen's private letter.

Here we are, my stance on the Lutheran contribution to the War of Reformation. Father Luther's warnings about the inevitable Byzantine treachery stirred up righteous anger about the errors of the Reich's leadership in setting us on the path of Unification. This clearly had a role in preparing the Reich for the coming violence, but gathering sticks does not create a fire. Luther brought together men of like minds to stop an action which he rightly predicted to have disasterous consequences.

Let's be clear, Luther's tracts and words have been proven out by history. In all the hundreds of years since the dominance of old Rome have so many cities ever been exterminated by one nation? Even by all the people of Europe?

No. Byzantium's atrocities are beyond any conception I could manage, even as a staunch Lutheran, before the war; but they were not beyond Father Luther's comprehension. Luther gathered the tinder that would burst into flame, but he did so purposefully, with the intent of saving the Reich from itself. Jan von Hamburg was the spark that caused Luther's justly angry supporters and starry eyed detractors to burst into flame. There is blame aplenty to go around, but let us never forget that without a spark the orderly transformation of the Reich's body politic into a Lutheran group might have been violence free.

I stress might because there is no certainty. What is certain is that a single event began the War of Reformation and lit the fires of rebellion and rioting, and that even was the return of Jan and his rabble rousing call to arms.

On to the matter of Kaiser Siegfried, my brother, and his assassination. I have only the proof of primary benefit to argue in my favor. Duke Steffen's investigation was, in my view and the view of the Emperor, incomplete and inadequate, cut short as it was by the cataclysm and the loss of his home city. I do not believe my version of these events to be conclusively true, but they best fit the information I am in possession of. As I challenged the Emperor, so I challenge all of you; if you know something regarding my brother's death that I do not, speak now.

Blood calls to blood, and if it is not my fate to die first I will see my brother's murderers as their eyes glaze over and their trip to **** begins.

Was there another issue?

Fritz's voice has remained calm throughout this speech, but by the end of it the papers in his hands are a twisted wreck. Without glancing down Fritz discards them on the floor, and takes his seat.

:egypt:

Wildly trying to break the tension that has filled the room, Hans von Bavaria quickly scribbles down a few sentences and decides to just get over introducing his edict, though he has not really worked everything out yet.

The English are the only friend we have at the present, and we would do well to aid them however we can. I know our forces in Outremer are spread thin and there are thousands of Byzantines headed toward Acre, but still, I would propose this:

Edict 14.4: In the likely case of a Turkish attack on the English in Damascus, a force shall be sent to aid the English if possible and if it seems there is any hope left for the situation.


I am not very well-informed about the Outremer, so forgive me and inform me if this Edict betrays any of my ignorance or inexperience.


Knowing it is not very well thought out, Hans resumes his seat praying that it will at least be noticed.

Andreas stands.

I will second Edict 14.4, Herr von Bavaria. As difficult as it is to imagine having the spare forces to help the English at Damascus in the near future, failing to do so would not only allow an ally to lose land we gave them, a terrible consequence in and of itself, but open a second front in Outremer against the Turks. If forces are by some miracle available, we must spare them for such an endeavor.

I will second edit 14.4 also

Matthias thinks a bit before speaking on the newest proposal.

I must admit that the English predicament in Damascus has mostly escaped my notice. I have been focused on the Greek armies marching south on Acre.

Outremer owes the English, their agreement to take possession of Aleppo and Damascus has helped us greatly in defending against the Byzantines. The Turks taking Damascus would be an unfortunate blow, as they would then border us and Jerusalem.

I do wish to assist the English, but I am not sure I have the forces to do so currently. Two large Greek armies threaten my position north of Acre and the Citadel itself. Not only do they block the most direct route to Damascus, but if I do move east, that will leave Acre open to assault. Those armies will have to be destroyed or dispersed before a force can be sent to Damascus.

Andreas and I, working with the Chancellor, will do what we can to enforce this edict if it passes, but any assistance is at least four years off.

I wish I could offer more, but keeping Acre and my army intact is my highest priority.

I will consult the latest reports when I can and see if I can figure something out.

Dieter stands up,

First off, I want to offer my appreciation to Sir Fritz in patiently attending to the questions of young electors.

To see him acknowledge the very complex layers of history is heartening. I won't pretend to completely agree with his interpretation of history. But I have a feeling that trained historians will be going over the details of this War for hundreds of years. So I won't pretend to have some sort of deeper understanding. All I wished was for Sir Fritz to acknowledge that there was complexity and multiple reasons for the War. He has done so and I am satisfied.

As for the issue of the Kaiser's murder, it seems there was more to the issue than the Diet records made clear. While I am not yet convinced that the Byzantines are responsible, I do hope we one day learn the truth. In that, Sir Fritz and I can at least agree.

I still have my choice for Chancellor. It is due in no part to some sort of deficiency on the part of Sir Fritz. It is only due to the exceedingly high quality of Duke Arnold. When silver is placed next to gold, it does not in any way diminish the glean of silver.

But I did owe Sir Fritz an apology for something I said and I have given my apology to him in person. I was wrong when I called him "unfit". I am young and new to the Diet. My emotions got the better of me and I offer no excuses.

Dieter gives a slight bow of the head to Sir Fritz

Now on to the topic of Edict 14.4. This edict does have the required seconders but I do support it. While it is no secret that I wish to see Damascus returned to the care of the Reich, I much rather see the English govern that city, rather than the Turks.

von Bavaria speaks again, noticably more confident:

I am glad that the Edict has the required seconders, and would like the Electors to consider a point which I failed to mention earlier. The Turks are the enemy of both the Egyptians and the Byzantines. Perhaps defeating them at Damascus would cause them to focus more of their attention on these two enemies instead, who are also of course, our foes. Though the situation would be bad if their army took Damascus, it would be much worse if their southward bound armies were diverted to the west once they saw our situation.

I had the same reservations as Herr Steffen, which was why I was somewhat lacking in confidence in the edict. However, though I personally wish to serve in Bavaria or Italy to become more experienced, I hope that others will come to the aid of Outremer and this will be able to be accomplished if not immediately, then hopefully before Christian rule of Damascus is merely a distant memory.

Ehrhart surveys the diet hall, somewhat unsure of the reaction he will receive for putting forth an edict before reading off a scroll

My esteemed nobles of the empire, I put forth to you an edict of Swabia:
Edict 14.4 Wolfgang Hümmel and Dietrich von Dassel will be confined to the Pillory rather than the main Mausoleum proper.

My belief on this matter is that these two traitorous rebels should not sully the ground our honorable and noble ancestors rest upon. They are not worthy to be worshipped together with men such as our most exalted emperors and dukes that are buried there, and are more comparable to men such as the late Jens von Kassel, who turned against the empire and German authority.

It is common knowledge that they are guilty of high treason, iciting rebellion, unlawful occupation of German lands, conspiring to rebel, premeditated murder of fellow Germans and disobeying authority. Indeed, they were the first to spill the blood of German soldiers before any loyalist had, at Normandy, Bern and Staufen. When told to cease their rebellion and rejoin the empire without many consequences, they refused and instead continued the fraticide and directly caused the loss of German lands to the French and possibly the Byzantines to the south as well, as Swabia was unable to lend her forces to her neighbor duchies.

Alexander Luther:

In that case, I demand that you include Duke Hans and Jan von Hamburg to the list, as they also participated in the same premediated murder of Germans as their fellows did. Jan von Hamburg particularly deserted his post at Outremer, leaving the defense of this important eastern front to the maligned Matthias Steffen, to sail to Europe, recruit an army solely for the purpose of killing Germans, and helped start the War of Reformation in the process, which claimed over a hundred thousand lives.

The war is over, Ruppel. Let it die.

I applaud the good Elector Ruppel for his wise policy of barring all those who are unworthy from eternal rest in the Mausoleum. However, I do not think this legislation goes far enough. I will agree with Edict 14.4 if the names of Hans and Jan von Hamburg are added to the list.

Hans was the first Elector in history to take up arms against a fellow German when he marched against Peter von Kastilien and Tancred von Tyrolia. He was also personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of Germans at Metz and Bern.

Jan von Hamburg, in turn, abandoned his appointed position as King of Outremer without even so much as consulting with his fellow Crusaders before leaving, thus causing a crisis of military leadership which jeapordized the entire defense of Outremer. He struck a deal with a Pope who was an enemy of the Reich, a Pope who was later removed from power through the wise actions of Kaiser Elberhard and Dieter von Kassel. He sold an ancient and valued relic of Christendom to further his own means of transportation. Then, when he arrived back in the Reich, he also took up arms against fellow Germans, slaying them happily in cold blood. As if that were not enough, he was responsible for sparking the War of Reformation, which cost well over 100,000 civilian lives and untold amounts of economic damange.

While we're at it, let us add both Edmund Becker and Ludwig von Bohmen to that list, as they both rebelled against authority. Though they are not yet dead, we should surely ensure that they are properly rewarded for their treachery. For that matter, let us also add Peter von Kastilien and Tancred von Tyrolia, as they surely rebelled against Kaiser Siegfried and violated the Charter when they marched on, and sacked, Constantinople.

Let us also add the names of Lorenz Zirn and Fritz von Kastilien, for they committed the atrocious crimes of sacking their own cities. Dieter von Kassel should similarly be reprimanded for killing a Pope, which, of course, should also require retroactive legislation to ensure that Kaiser Heinrich, Otto von Kassel, and Gerhard Steffen are added to the pillory for similar crimes. We must not, of course, forget my own crimes in supporting the above named rebels, so I must certainly reside there at the end of my days as well.

Have I missed anyone else that has erred and is deserving of scorn? I certainly hope not, for it would certainly taint the Reich to have any unworthy man resting at eternal peace with Christ. It is, after all, our job to determine whether a man's soul is damned for eternity, not that of the Lord Almighty.

If you wish to include them, please propose it in your own edict, Luther.

Both of the men you name did not start a rebellion and both wished to stop the war via diplomacy. However, as neither of the rebels were willing to cease their rebellion and fight the French instead with almost no repercussions from the late Duke Hans, it was necessary to use force after the rebels had murdered fellow Germans first to prevent further escalation. King Jan, god rest his soul, returned from Outremer with the stated goal of preventing Swabia from falling to the rebels and to counteract the influence of your fanatics at Bern. Afterall, there was not only the Christian army, but the Lutheran army as well.

Luther, the war may the over, but should we honest Germans really wish to dishonor and desecrate our forefathers by laying to rest two traitors of the empire next to them and worship them in the same breath? I think not.

Shaking his head in astonishment at his life long friend, Arnold can only look on as the fury and venom spews forth from Lothar's mouth.


£$% me, I'm glad I didn't make that list!!

Christ on the Cross, we are a bunch of heathen scum when it's all said and done.

Truer words were never spoken, Arnold. I propose that every Elector that has ever lived be cast into the pillory. Surely we have all sinned in some way or another. We cannot pollute the pure resting grounds of the Imperial Mausoleum with villains like Maximillian Mandorf, who is rumored to have raped a priest, even if he has been declared a Saint since then. Let us clear all the filth out and leave the Mausoleum clean and barren, the way Eden was after those abominations, Adam and Eve, were tossed out on their arses.

Alexander Luther:

My fanatics?

What madness is this?

I called for the formation of a second Lutheran army specifically after Jan von Hamburg arrived and created a rabble of his own! Get your facts straight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Hans was the first Elector in history to take up arms against a fellow German when he marched against Peter von Kastilien and Tancred von Tyrolia. He was also personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of Germans at Metz and Bern.

---

And yet he did not kill a single German man in the process of pursuing Prince Peter, but aided his capture peacefully. He has also only raised his sword against the rebels at Bern after Dassel had attacked its loyal German garrison with cannons and arms that you supplied him with.
At Metz, he fought rebels that were more French than German. The kind of unorganized rabble that every elector has faced during the period of the cataclysm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Jan von Hamburg, in turn, abandoned his appointed position as King of Outremer without even so much as consulting with his fellow Crusaders before leaving, thus causing a crisis of military leadership which jeapordized the entire defense of Outremer. He struck a deal with a Pope who was an enemy of the Reich, a Pope who was later removed from power through the wise actions of Kaiser Elberhard and Dieter von Kassel. He sold an ancient and valued relic of Christendom to further his own means of transportation. Then, when he arrived back in the Reich, he also took up arms against fellow Germans, slaying them happily in cold blood. As if that were not enough, he was responsible for sparking the War of Reformation, which cost well over 100,000 civilian lives and untold amounts of economic damange.

---

From what I know, he left his position secretly as not to alert those who supported the unlawful rebellion in Swabia. The pope may have been an enemy, but he became one only through the actions of Dietrich von Dassel who killed the pope and exterminated the papal city of Durazzo. If it were not for Dassel, King Jan would have returned via vessels provided by a friendly pope. The war of reformation, as we all know was started through the violent offspring of Lutheran teachings in several small hamlets across the empire already. It was only tipped off when both Dassel, Luther, and Jan called for men of faith to gather at Bern. Again, if Dassel had not rebelled or joined forces with the rightful Duke at that time as he was offered, this would not have occured.

Ah, you are entirely correct, Elector Ruppel. Your wisdom once again prevails. We must ensure that those who were the ultimate cause of all this suffering be sent to the Pillory. We must, of course, ensure that Kaiser Siegfried is placed there as well. Surely no one is bold enough to state that this entire conflict was not caused by his unilateral and vastly unpopular decision to unite the Reich with the Byzantine Empire. There is our ultimate culprit, and a man who must also join the rest of the list in mortuary purgatory.

Duke Lothar, the point behind my proposed edict is not to banish anyone who has sinned in their life to the pillory, but rather those who openly rebelled against Imperial authority thus commiting high treason, were the first to spill German blood, and did not stop when asked to do so by lawful authority.

As we all well know, good men such as Prince Peter, Edmund Becker and Ludwig von Böhmen saw reason and rejoined the empire without spilling German blood. Contrast this to Dassel and Hümmel. As you suggested in your letter you wrote and presented, you did have second thoughts about supporting such rebellions and that it may not have been the best thing to do.

Well, then the first German blood that was spilt on the battlefield was between Wolfgang Hummel and Athalwolf von Salza. Indeed, I believe it was Athalwolf's crossbowmen who notched up the first few fatalities. Thank you for reminding me that your own Duke must then be added to the list.

If I remember correctly, the battle of Normandy ensued when Hümmel moved to attack Duke von Salza and Rheims. Defending your own lands against rebels certainly is legal I would presume?

Alexander Luther:

The root cause of the Swabian Civil War occured early on during Kaiser Siegfried's reign when Wolfgang Hummel was directly ordered to assault and occupy the city of Bruges.

The city, at the time, was suffering from an unholy Plague, where around 50% of its inhabitants were either already sick or dead. Now, this was common knowledge at the time. And yet Hans still ordered Hummel in. Wolfgang Hummel, a loyal vassal of Swabia at the time, was specifically ordered by his Duke to, pretty much, get the plague and die.

But, since Hans was already Duke at the time, he is a hero.

Legal? Is that how we are defining this, then? All men who have broken laws are to be sent to the Pillory? Well now, that is certainly a bold statement, but I agree to it. We must, therefore, obviously include the late Ulrich Hummel for his violations of the law during his Chancellorship. It also brings us back around the Peter von Kastilien and Tancred von Tyrolia, who declared war on an ally of the Reich without the approval of the Diet. Thank you for continuing to improve our list of those unworthy of spending eternity in anything approaching quiet dignity.

From what I gather in the archives, it was not known to Swabia nor the empire that Bruges was plague infested. Indeed, Hümmel himself in a letter to the late Duke Hans expressed the wish to be able to take command of the Swabian Household Army and be allowed to take Bruges.

Duke von Salza hears of the accusations against him

Yes, I may have spilled German blood, but it was worthless, rebel blood! I was defending our homeland!? If I wanted to not kill fellow Germans, can you think of what would've happened if I let Hummel past?

I would like to second Erhart Ruppel's edict.

I would like to point out, there are other ways of refusing to do something then rebelling and killing fellow Germans. He could've directly appealed to the Kaiser?

DUke von Salza sits down

Alexander Luther:

You are examining the wrong maps, Ruppel. It was common knowledge in that time period. Indeed, all the up-to-date maps of that era (OOC: savegames) had that Bruges was beplagued already marked on there!

My apologis Duke Lothar, but I believe you are taking my words out of context.
I clearly stated that it would be legal to defend yourself and your lands if you are attacked.

Alexander Luther:

I see. And you are now apparantely the sole determiner of what is and is not legal.

My apologies Ruppel, let me now swear fealty to you.

The archives state that it was only known that Bruges was infested with the plague after it was taken or during the battle. (OOC: We did not have a spy there and the turn Hümmel moved into Bruges, it was not possible to see whether it was infested, only when he actually started laying siege to it)
Yet he decided to press the battle rather than retreat.

Then surely Duke Hans must again be subject to the Pillory. He attacked the good people of Metz, who were only defending themselves against an outside aggressor. Surely the citizens of the city themselves are capable of defending their own lands? If they take up arms against an outsider, then the outsider must, by nature, be the attacker and not the defender of their homes. This will again force us to include Lorenz Zirn and Fritz von Kastilien into the list. Also, it casts doubt on Wolfgang Hummel himself, for he was beloved by the people of Bruges, likely more so than any Lord has been loved by a people. Surely his efforts in defending the people of Bruges against Hans and Athalwolf's attempt to reconquer them is legal by your standards. After all, Bruges was clearly his land not only by right of conquest, but also by the desire of the people themselves.

Obviously amused by the thrust and counter thrust Arnold can be seen writing down ever name mentioned by any of the combatants. To no one in particular the Duke looks over his shoulder to his fellow Austrian nobles and his retinue.

I'm still highly impressed that I haven't made it onto anyone's list, although I'm sure my father would be unhappy considering the legacy he gave me and how much time I've invested in maintaining and expanding upon it.

I'm rather shocked actually.

Now looking entirely glum at not being mentioned Arnold resumes his note taking

Come now, we cannot be endorsing traitors can we? I pledge my support to this Edict.

Dieter turns to Luther but does not talk directly to him.

And what of this heretic? Was it the Kaiser's decision to let the man who caused such loss of life in our sacred Empire into these most important of halls?

I shall ask you to consult your geographer on this matter. Caen, Bruges, and Metz are all part of the Duchy of Swabia and thus subject to the Duke of Swabia or the Count assigned to rule the lands.

As Metz rebelled against the Duke and indeed against the empire by throwing out its garrison and destroying Imperial property, while being ruled by a local mob, it was clearly a valid target for the Duke to restore his authority at.

Hümmel on the other hand unlawfully occupied Caen and Bruges, preventing their funds and arms to reach the lawful Duke and consequently Imperial men at arms that needed equipment to defend their homes against rebellion and the French. If you contrast this with Edmund Becker, Hümmel used those forces to attack fellow Germans and refused to reconcile on favorable terms while Edmund Becker used his troops to defend against foreigners only and eventually rejoined his Duchy.

True, true, rebels must certainly lose any rights to their lands, be they peasant hovels or entire Duchies. The Pillory must be limited to those who attack lands that are rightfully and legally held by others. This is excellent, as it vastly increases our list. For, with the exception of the newer arrivals into the Diet, nearly every Elector in the Reich, living and dead, has been responsible for attacking foreign lands that they did not have any legal right to. I will not bother to list all of the names of the nobles who have conquered a foreign city, but I hope Arnold will be pleased to note that he can finally be included on these grounds.

*Lothar nods his head respectfully to the Duke of Austria.*

Welcome to Purgatory, my friend! It seems to be a popular place these days.

Standing abruptly and raising his fist in triumph, Arnold lets out a cry of success

Yyyyesssss!!!!!

Now we're talkin' Lothar!!!

Alexander Luther:

As a matter of fact, Bresch, it was. And I immensely regret falling for his deception, for I was lured here on the basis that we were able to be reconciled and beyond these petty disputes! These people are dead and have lost in their causes. Should the Lord see fit, their ultimate judgement will be decided elsewhere.

For now, we should focus on issues for the living. Living! Why must we debate on what section of some Mausoleum two Electors fall in when there are Byzantine territories that need to be reconquered??!

Finally, I once again request that I be granted a vote in this Diet. With people like Bresch improperly slandering my name after I have repeatedly apologized, I must be allowed to defend my honor.

History is written by the victors, eh Ruppel? Consider this, Peter will be Kaiser in due time and who will be the victors then?

I will be blunt, it matters not one whit what you do with my remains once I'm dead. I've seen enough meat chopped, chewed, and in every other guise mistreated to know it's real worth. Those men are dead. They can't help us defend the walls. Do with them as you will for all of me, but realize this; in your own time you too will be castigated and humiliated by those who come after. This is the fate of all prominent men. Think on it well before you attack those who have gone before you.

Now, where will the Not-Imperial-but-ever-so-much-better Mausoleum for Heroes of the Resistance againt ****fool Unification be placed? I'd volunteer Hamburg, but I fear if my young friend the Count of Hamburg ever makes it out of Palermo to see it he may not be too pleased.

With a contemptuous shrug Fritz returns to his seat.

:egypt:

I have argued my point, and it is not about rewriting large volumes of history, but simply to pay our respects to our ancestors who have fallen in defence of a unified empire and who have helped forge our empire rather than wantonly destroy it for their own petty squabbles and refusing to come to the aid of their fellow electors.

Now, since you are so clever Duke Lothar, you certainly wish to tell me why Jens von Kassel is confined to the Pillory when men such as Hümmel and Dassel are not? Has he committed any greater atrocities than those men have?

And Luther, of course we wish to reclaim our lands, but as the diet does not close for another day and there was little talk about anything still ongoing, I felt that this would be a good time to present this edict. Whether or not we debate and vote on it or not, the diet will not be cut short either way and we might as well use this time. If you do not wish for debate, you may find the tavern next door.

Perhaps everyone, not just electors, whoever fought a battle against German rebels since the beginning of time should be confined to the Pillory. Hamburg was a rebel German city long ago. Now it may be considered one of the greatest cities of the Reich, but Dietrich von Saxony and his army of swine surely attacked it and killed Germans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Alexander Luther:Finally, I once again request that I be granted a vote in this Diet. With people like Bresch improperly slandering my name after I have repeatedly apologized, I must be allowed to defend my honor.

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Yes, Father Luther should either be given the right to vote or he should lose the ability to propose a CA/edict.

If your an elector, you gain both abilities. If your not, you have neither abilities and are only a spectator.

Since CA 14.4 already is co-proposed by Kaiser Elberhard, taking Father Luther's name off of the legislation will not effect whether the legislation makes it on the ballot.

The Charter is quite clear on Elector rights. If Father Luther is not an elector, then he simply does not have elector rights. If he is an elector, then he can vote.

Ludwig rises, concern on his face

I have said many times before, that I am not one worthy to speak of loyalty. I put loyalty to my employer before that of the Reich and my Kaiser, and I can never repay that price.

Perhaps, then, to save my own immortal soul, but also because I am a religious man and believe that after death, only the Lord shall have the right to judge us, I cannot support this edict.

I am sorry, Duke von Salza, if you preceive this as yet more disloyalty on my behalf. It is not meant as such, or disloyalty to our most noble house, or as disrespect to you or Herr Ruppel in any way. I understand your reasons for this edict. I just hope you can understand mine.

Ludwig bows slightly to the room at large, and then more profusely to his Duke and sits

Elector Ruppel, the reason Jens von Kassel is confined to the Pillory is simple: no man thought enough of him to defend his worth in the Diet. He had no friends or admirers and all unanimously considered him a traitor and worthy of disgrace. Clearly that is not the case with either Dietrich von Dassel or Wolfgang Hummel. You may view those men as vile traitors, but I, for one, believe that they were noble and honorable men who were fighting to make the Reich a better place. Whatever sins they may have committed and whatever laws they may have broken, I do not believe that their errors are sufficient to condemn them to permanent disgrace in death. They have paid for their mistakes with their lives, surely that is enough.

I would also like to ask a serious question, discarding all sarcasm. Why have you not included Jan von der Pfalz in your edict? He was a rebel just as much as Wolfgang and Dietrich. He knew exactly which side he was joining when he pledged loyalty to Wolfgang. Furthermore, unlike Ludwig von Bohmen, Jan von der Pfalz never reconciled with Duke Athalwolf. He died an unrepentant rebel, yet you have chosen to ignore his 'crimes' though they are identical to the other two men you name. If you truly believe that all true rebels should receive the Pillory, then Jan must be included with your legislation. If you do not include him, we can only conclude that you have proposed this legislation out of a personal vendetta against men who have already paid the highest price for their actions.

Let the dead rest in peace, Ehrhart, they can do you no more harm.

Matthias stands after he can take no more of the present debate.

Enough! It is obvious this Diet Session has gone on too long. We should have kept it to the customary three days, as we have gone from debating legislation to refighting the battles of the past.

What did the Kaiser ask when he opened the Session? "Let the past be the past". Yet here we now are, fighting in the mud over semantics and where we should rebury our dead.

We are better than this. We need to be better than this, or our enemies will triumph.

It is obvious that enmity still remains amongst us, but we must put it aside and focus on rebuilding the Reich. There are wounds that will never heal, except when we are all dead, and no legislation or verbal sparring can close them. But we must go on anyway, or this Empire will fall.

Matthias takes his seat, with a sidelong glance at the empty throne.


OOC: FH's edict should be 14.5 not 14.4.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...4&postcount=15

I am in complete accord. Let us finish this now, and be over with it.

Elberhard: I believe this Diet has run its course. I am closing this full Diet session. Ballots will be prepared shortly. Debate and discussion may continue.

It seems we will have to agree to disagree then, for my belief is that neither Hümmel nor Dassel were honorable nor noble, as honorable and noble men would not openly rebel against authority, wantonly destroy Imperial property, refuse to rejoin to fight the French, and commit treason. Nay, honorable men would put aside their differences when given that offer and wait for a diet session to bring across their point rather than deplete Imperial resources and throw the empire into even deeper peril. The late Duke offered such, but these men rejected.
Of course I will not disagree that Jens von Kassel did not have many supporters, but the diet protocols also do not show that there ever was a vote to place him in the Pillory. Who made the decision then?

Now, as for Pfalz, he may have died a rebel, but never did he attack fellow Germans when he had the opportunity to do so by coming to Staufen and instead focussed his attention north to defend against Danes and Frenchmen. That is honorable. Indeed, he kept out of the war except by name.

Elberhard: Given the state of the voting and Fritz von Kastilien's conceding defeat, I am happy to announce that Duke Arnold is now Chancellor of the Reich!

Matthias speaks.

Congratulations to Duke Arnold. Having been a Chancellor, I praise him for taking the position during such trying times.

Matthias bows to the Kaiser.

With your Majesty's leave, I will depart for Outremer. The task ahead of myself and Andreas is daunting, but I will not rest until the Kingdom has regained its standing.

May God preserve us and smite our enemies.

Matthias exits.

Karl Zirn speaks,

Excellent news! We can now move forward. Matthias, I wish you safety in your travels and success with your enemies. How I only wish I could return with you. Good Luck my friend.

The old count slowly walks out of the Diet ready to return home.

Standing and moving to the chamber floor Arnold says a few words to Matthias and Karl as they leave.

Proceeding onto the floor the Duke is clearly very focused.

My Liege, Prinz Peter, Viceroy Matthias, Dukes, Nobles of the Reich.

I accept the vote that has been cast here over the past few days and would like to thank Fritz for conducting himself with honour and decorum in his campaign against me.

I certainly have no issue with any of the men that vote in favour of Fritz and I would like them to know that at this time.

I will now move the Chancellors office to Ragusa and you will all receive orders and recommendations forthwith.

Elberhard: All knights flying Imperial colours, including those in the most advanced Gothic armour, now swear a personal oath of allegiance to the Kaiser. Those existing regiments that were able to do so, have joined my army in its march on Rome.

I wish to announce that any other Imperial regiments that have not joined me may stay with their current commanders. Similarly, any future regiments that the Chancellor wishes to recruit may be freely deployed. I will only call upon those regiments in the event of a future rebellion against lawful authority.

As for those regiments that have already joined me, I require their services for the moment until Captain Draganos and his army of Latinkon have been disposed of. Thereafter, any surplus regiments will be sent to where they are most in need. Swabia seems the most likely candidate.

Arnold:

So I'm free to recruit them as I see fit, those that haven't joined you can stay where they are and after you've got your arse into gear and hammered those two other Byzantine armies any Imperial Knights in the reinforcement column can be redeployed...most likely going to Swabia?

Is that the translation I can use Oh might one?

Elberhard: Sadly, Chancellor, my arse - although still magnificent - is not as young as it once was, but I will endeavour to move it as fast as I can. However, I am glad to see your hearing and mind remain as razor sharp as ever, Arnold.

Perhaps I could be of use in leading those men to Swabia ?

Once their use ot our Emperor is over, of course...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by econ21

Elberhard: Sadly, Chancellor, my arse - although still magnificent - is not as young as it once was, but I will endeavour to move it as fast as I can. However, I am glad to see your hearing and mind remain as razor sharp as ever, Arnold.

---

Arnold:

Indeed your Majesty, the gossip from the English section of my entourage has confirmed that, even though it is somewhat older, your arse is still as fine a specimen of German flesh as can be gazed upon by womankind!!

I'm looking forward to seeing it in action on my way to Ragusa.

Karolinger!!! Get off those god damn boats will you!!!??

Arnold:

My lords!! The Reich is in serious trouble.

I refer you to the current reports.

(OOC: Latest save in the Orders and Reports thread)

The lose of Milan has crippled us...we have no florins and the plague has struck in Staufen:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i184.photobucket.com/albums/...4-09-09-95.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i184.photobucket.com/albums/...3-13-44-14.jpg

Rather than make unilateral moves, I would have your thoughts on the matter which will then allow me to make the cuts that are necessary.

I believe it is obvious that all excess resources that can be gathered must be directed towards Italy. As we have already seen, the loss of these cities is crippling to the Imperial Treasury. Genoa now stands isolated and defenseless and a powerful French army is marching on it as we speak. Even if I were to march there with the remnants of my army, I would not be able to hold it. We thus face losing the last of our Italian cities and suffering a further blow to our income. If this happens, we may never recover.

I know there are few resources to spare, but we must find some way to fund recruitment. Perhaps destruction of all non-essential buildings across the Reich will allow for a full levy from both Innsbruck and Genoa. In truth, even this will be a stopgap measure. I believe that the fate of the Reich lies in the hands of Kaiser Elberhard and Freidrich Karolinger. God help us all.

Elberhard:

Count Karolinger is currently on reserve duty for a while, Lothar: as Duke perhaps you would wish to provide orders for the movement of his army? (Household Army Otto?)

As for my army, I am intending to strike Manouel of Zavarinikeia and then take the bridge to Venice. Unfortunately, I am not sure I will be able to get the city under siege this year. I would welcome any thoughts from Duke Lothar or others on alternative moves.

I would welcome the Chancellor's views - or anyone else's - about the best way to get the four spare regiments of Imperial knights to Swabia.

Kaiser Elberhard,

My answer depends on whether you believe you will need BHA Otto to aid you in attacking the armies around Venice. If you do not, I would prefer that it march west to aid me at Milan. Of course, that would only be possible if the route was clear. If it is not, I would prefer that it remain near you for safety. With Count Karolinger on reserve duty, I do not want to leave the fate of that army in battle to chance.

Arnold:

Kaiser, you're movements are what I would have requested.

I'm becoming somewhat less tolerant of politics and other issues that do not have any immediate result on our strategic situation. Therefore I'm not interested in sending those Imperial Knight all the way to Swabia but rather using them immediately in Northern Italy for maximum effect.

The various theater's of war are as follows:

Swabia is now fully defensive due to plague and no further income.

Franconia is also defensive until the siege in Magdeburg is resolved, therefore freeing it up to attack.

You have the ability to attack and so does von Kassel.

Austria also has the ability to attack which it will.

In essence the armies that can engage in offensive operations MUST do so immediately to alleviate our economic situation.

If troops die then I have no problem with it...our overheads must be reduced in some way and fighting is one of them.

I will therefore be recommending that both the Swabian and Franconia forces that are not under siege be placed in defensible but hopefully tempting positions for the French and Danish to attack. This will expend some of their forces against us and allow for a better offensive operations in the future. Additionally von Kassel can't simply sit in Palermo and wait. I will also be recommending that he leaves a token force there and marches into southern Italy.

We simply can not have any units unused at this time.

While there is no doubt that Bavaria needs aid as well, Swabia stands to lose two further counties this very year, namely Metz and Bruges. That would reduce Swabia to exactly Staufen, which is plague-ridden, and Bern. I believe that reinforcements of some kind, as emperor Elberhard has generously proposed, would be of aid to stop the French advance, because at this very moment, there is little hope of even waging a defensive war against France without any influx of heavy cavalry.

If Metz and Bruges fall this year, then the road to Frankfurt and Nuremburg is wide open. And we are all aware that our heartlands are almost completely undefended and would require even more time to be reinforced.

I would like to point out that if Genoa falls, Bavaria will consist only of the citadel at Innsbruck and even that settlement is threatened by a nearby Hungarian force. No Duchy is in a more dire situation than Bavaria.

Of course I am aware of the Bavarian plight, but as of now, both Genoa and Innsbruck stand unbesieged, while Bruges and Metz will likely fall to the French unless some miracle happens, leaving both Duchies with exactly two counties.

However, Swabia has less than 1 full army and Bavaria has two armies at her disposal.

I will not argue over who would be more deserving or who has absolutely greater need. Both Duchies are badly hit and could use some help.

That is absurd. First of all, I do not think Bruges is in any serious risk of falling. Ludwig von Bohmen is a capable commander and he has a large army to help him defend the city. The French forces that besiege him are not unusually highly experienced or otherwise advantaged in any exceptional manner. I expect Bruges to resist the siege and destroy the attacking force, thus limiting Swabia's only threat to the movements around Metz.

Furthermore, I do not know how you can possibly say that Bavaria has two armies at her disposal. BHA Gerhard has been all but destroyed and BHA Otto is the only significant force remaining in Bavaria. If you mean that the Kaiser's army counts as a Bavarian army, I should remind you that it is moving on Venice, which is an Austrian city, and is not earmarked to aid Milan or Genoa. Genoa will almost certainly be under siege by a powerful French army next year.

Furthermore, the Imperial Knights you are requesting are on foot and will take many years to reach Swabia. By the time they arrive, the issue will be decided there one way or another. In contrast, they can be of immediate assistance on the Italian front. It is simply absurd to send them to Swabia at this time.

We must cut the size of Household Armies that are in reserve and continue to have taxes high. I understand there are few reserve Household Armies, but we must be conservative nonetheless.

My Lords, Gentlemen,

Make your cases here and go ahead and commence your authorised attacks using the forces under your command (OOC: The save is open for any an all generals to take the initiative. I've taken screenies of the opening events so do as you please), once these have finished I'll then make the determinations I must as Chancellor.

I'm on the way to Ragusa as I write this so I shall be back with the 2nd AHA by the end of this season.

I have to point out at this time that there is no possible way I will authorise a 6 year trip for four regiments of DIK when they can be engaged in battle effectively right now...that simply will not happen at this time.

Likewise von Kassel will be ordered to leave whatever troops he deems necessary to defend Palermo and then proceed to the southern part of Italy to commence offensive actions down there.

If you're an army commander you better be productive right now or I will begin reducing regiments and allocating resources to commanders that can produce results immediately. The only exceptions are Swabia and Franconia. Although I am now loathed to use Staufen given the plague or to invest resources in war theater's which are deadlocked with the enemy.

Duke Steffen's recent actions are an example of what must be done to receive what little resources I maybe able to eek out of this situation.

The Chancellor.

A letter arrives from Outremer.

Quote:

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Kaiser Elberhard, Chancellor Arnold and my fellow Electors. It seems that the Greeks have left the way to Antioch open after the destruction of Captain Modestos and his men. I am dispatching Sir Andreas with a portion of the Army of Outremer, including Cannon, to retake the city. Once the city is taken, I will make my way, once again, to the Iron Bridge with the remainder of the army.

The reconquest has started. It may take a long time, but by God it has finally begun.

On the topic of reinforcements and expenses, I have suffecient men at the moment. Though if Antioch is taken it will need repairs and militia troops when the city can recruit them.

May God aid Duke Arnold in his duties. No Chancellor has faced such difficulties.

Viceroy Matthias

---

Arnold:

I've spoken to Sir Andreas already Viceroy and he is cleared to proceed as you have planned.

God speed and good luck. Some good news is desperately needed. Might I also add that Fritz has done an impressive job near Hamburg.

Austria nobles:

I would ask Lord Zirn to split his forces as best as possible and attack the Hungarian half stack between him and Vienna and also send part of the 1st AHA to Vienna to assist in the defense of the siege which is surely about to begin.

I would also ask Lorzen Zirn to destroy the Polish forces near Zagreb!!!

Austria!! Attack now or we shall lose the initiative.

The Chancellor

Elberhard:

Chancellor, Electors, I present to you ... Venice.

She is but a shadow of her former self, with not even a functioning market. But she is still Venice, the love of my uncle Leopold and the most @#$%^&!!!ing beautiful city in the world.

In view of the losses my army is sustaining and the impracticality of transferring them to Swabia, I will retain command of the four spare regiments of dismounted Imperial knights for now. They guard the bridge to Venice as we speak.

In light of the formidable Byzantine army at Bologna, careful consideration must be given to the movement and command of Bavarian Household Army Otto. One of the bridges in North Italy would appear to be the most defensible location. And I wonder if young Hans von Bavaria should be assigned as an aide to Count Karolinger (who is on reserve duty) just in case? It might be wise for his Duke or the Chancellor to contact Hans to check on his availability.

Another letter arrives from Outremer, bearing the mark of Andreas von Salzgitter.

Quote:

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Gentlemen, Antioch has been retaken for about the loss of 40 spearmen. The Byzantines left it in bad shape, and many buildings need repaired. I would kindly ask permission of the Chancellor for taxes to be set to low if Matthias does not give instructions that forbid it. It is needed to keep the order here.

Also, loyal merchants, gladdened of our return, have donated a little over 1,000 florins to the Imperial Coffers. If at all possible, perhaps this could be spent on repairs or militia to guard the city and keep order.

Thank you for reading,
Andreas von Salzgitter, Crusader

---

This is splendid news! With the recapture of Venice and Antioch, along with the possibility of saving Hamburg, our financial situation may turn around soon enough. If we can generate sufficient profit to recruit on at least two fronts at once, I believe we will be able to emerge from this situation victorious.

Indeed, brilliantly done Chancellor, you appear to be leading us to victory on nearly all fronts with minimal sacrifices!

(OOC: Err, Fritz is still in the field, so this doesn't make much sense, but after his 'thoughts' in the battle I felt guilty or something. :idea2: )

Fritz von Kastilien

:egypt: