and so why would you need to take a gun into school unless there is some fear from a potential shooter ?
So, if you're not afraid- it won't happen? I doubt most victims of school shootings go to class that day scared the someone is going to shoot them. Sticking your head in the sand may make you feel better, but it has zero impact on whether or not some lunatic will decide to stroll into class and start shooting the place up. Not being afraid doesn't make you any safer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachikaze
You live in a civilized country. Enjoy it.
Maybe they're looking for immigrants. You could go live in this utopia.~:idea:
I know if I felt I lived somewhere so backward, barbaric, dangerous, and uncivilized as you seem to think the US is, I would do whatever I could to get out.
02-28-2008, 18:29
LittleGrizzly
Re: Another school shooting
Not being afraid doesn't make you any safer.
it doesn't, but if people feel the need to take a gun into school, even if its just incase, it shows a level of fear, which kind of validates beiruts point...
02-28-2008, 19:52
ICantSpellDawg
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
Not being afraid doesn't make you any safer.
it doesn't, but if people feel the need to take a gun into school, even if its just incase, it shows a level of fear, which kind of validates beiruts point...
so does a seatbelt in a car
a helmet on a bike
a lock on your door
or a claymore in the cookie jar... wait.
It validates nothing. We are advertising safety and responsibility, he is arguing that the danger doesn't exist. I'm glad that he lives in Canada too. I don't live in a "constant state of fear", nor would I if I lived in a castle law state or one with a less extreme conceal carry law. What would be different was - when I felt the fear of being threatened with a gun or a knife in the middle the night - I would feel safer to know that I had a gun on my hip or that someone who wasn't trying to rob/kill me might be nearby with a gun of his own.
Or we could just put armed policemen every five feet down the road and ban guns completely. But then again, why did we ever break away from England in the first place?
It is progressive to believe in helping to end poverty, educate the masses, and arm all citizens who are responsible and request it.
02-28-2008, 20:54
Beirut
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Congratulations. :bow:
Thanks! :sunny:
What I didn't know until I got there was that 1rst prize was a $5000 RESP donation from the corporate sponsors. (Registered Education Savings Plan.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
If you don't feel the need to, then dont. The problem comes when you want to prevent other law-abiding citizens from doing so.
I guess it's a question of what kind of society you wish to live in. I insist on living in a free society, which I do, but that does not give everyone the right to do as they wish. There are limitations. One of those limitations is that people don't carry handguns into schools. The majority of my fellow Canadians share that feeling. That's the kind of society we chose to live in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Weak. ~:handball:
Not really. It's quite pleasent. When I go walking, talking, shopping, swimming, out to see a movie, to a bar, drive a car, or any of a thousand other things I might do, I am not in a state of fear. I feel no need to have a handgun on me at all times. If I lived in a place where I did feel the need, I would drag my family the hell out of there the same day and go somewhere civilized.
By the by, and you may stuff this question in my ear if you wish - can a law abiding person carry a handgun on an airplane? If not, why not?
02-28-2008, 21:03
Xiahou
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Not really. It's quite pleasent. When I go walking, talking, shopping, swimming, out to see a movie, to a bar, drive a car, or any of a thousand other things I might do, I am not in a state of fear. I feel no need to have a handgun on me at all times. If I lived in a place where I did feel the need, I would drag my family the hell out of there the same day and go somewhere civilized.
Sounds more to me like you live in fear of the thought that your neighbors may be armed and take misguided comfort in that idea that laws forbid it. All that does is stop those who want to follow the law. If someone is intent on shooting you(already illegal), they're not going to allow a law prohibiting their carrying a weapon stop them. :shrug:
Quote:
By the by, and you may stuff this question in my ear if you wish - can a law abiding person carry a handgun on an airplane? If not, why not?
Most can't- not on commercial jets. It's based on the discredited idea that security personnel can guarantee everyone will be disarmed. This has been shown false on a number of occasions. Why do you ask?
02-28-2008, 21:11
Beirut
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Sounds more to me like you live in fear of the thought that your neighbors may be armed and take misguided comfort in that idea that laws forbid it. All that does is stop those who want to follow the law. If someone is intent on shooting you(already illegal), they're not going to allow a law prohibiting their carrying a weapon stop them. :shrug:
I'm sure my neighbour is armed, he told me. But his gun stays at home just as mine does.
As I said, it's a question of what kind of society you want to live in. He and I agree, and so do 99% of the people I know, that nobody except the cops (and even them sometimes...) should carry a handgun on the street, and least of all, to school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Most can't- not on commercial jets. It's based on the discredited idea that security personnel can guarantee everyone will be disarmed. This has been shown false on a number of occasions. Why do you ask?
Most? You mean some can?
I'm asking because I'm curious if you, or the people who share your views, are willing to have any limitations on the carrying of weapons?
Do you think a law abiding student should be able to pack his schoolroom-issue .357 Magnum onto a 757 for the trip home during Spring Break?
02-28-2008, 21:26
Xiahou
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
I'm sure my neighbour is armed, he told me. But his gun stays at home just as mine does.
As I said, it's a question of what kind of society you want to live in. He and I agree, and so do 99% of the people I know, that nobody except the cops (and even them sometimes...) should carry a handgun on the street, and least of all, to school.
Why are you ok with him carrying a weapon at home, but it makes you sick to think he might do so outside his residence? Again, if it's about fear- it's on your part. As I've said, and should be clear, making the carrying of weapons illegal does virtually nothing to guarantee you won't be shot by someone who chooses to break the law. As Tuff alluded to, people who carry guns 'live in fear' of crime the same way people who wear seatbelts 'live in fear' of crashes- they don't. Most people who wear seatbelts hope they never need them- the same as most people who carry guns. You seem to think that if someone is legally permitted to carry a concealed weapon, you are less safe and by the opposite, you are somehow safer. That doesn't follow.
Quote:
Most? You mean some can?
Sure. Pilots who choose to can and Air Marhalls, I believe, are required to.
Quote:
I'm asking because I'm curious if you, or the people who share your views, are willing to have any limitations on the carrying of weapons?
Do you think a law abiding student should be able to pack his schoolroom-issue .357 Magnum onto a 757 for the trip home during Spring Break?
I don't see the harm in it- as long as he/she is a responsible, law-abiding individual. I'm not too outraged that they can't either though- there's a long laundry list of prohibited items for flights. And I think airliners are technically private property, so if airlines want to screen people before entering, it's up to us to comply or stay on the ground(I know it's more complicated than that, but I don't feel like going off on a tangent).
02-28-2008, 21:30
Tachikaze
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
So, if you're not afraid- it won't happen? I doubt most victims of school shootings go to class that day scared the someone is going to shoot them. Sticking your head in the sand may make you feel better, but it has zero impact on whether or not some lunatic will decide to stroll into class and start shooting the place up. Not being afraid doesn't make you any safer.
Maybe they're looking for immigrants. You could go live in this utopia.~:idea:
I know if I felt I lived somewhere so backward, barbaric, dangerous, and uncivilized as you seem to think the US is, I would do whatever I could to get out.
A nation doesn't have to be a utopia to be less backward, barbaric, dangerous, and uncivilized than the US. I can't understand anyone who is happy in nation full of fear and violence. That's absolute insanity. It's like constantly living in a video game. People who say they want a society run by a justice based on who is the best shot is living in a boy's fantasy world, not reality.
If I were in my 20s, I would move to Japan in a heartbeat. But I refuse to give up the home I have been developing for the last 15 years just because of wacko gun nuts.
02-28-2008, 21:35
drone
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
I'm asking because I'm curious if you, or the people who share your views, are willing to have any limitations on the carrying of weapons?
Do you think a law abiding student should be able to pack his schoolroom-issue .357 Magnum onto a 757 for the trip home during Spring Break?
One thing to note about weapons on airlines. Airplanes are private property, the owners can restrict possession as they see fit. Not the best example to use for this discussion.
02-28-2008, 21:50
Mooks
Re: Another school shooting
Meh, I carry a knife around wherever I go (Excluding school). Im not in a constant state of fear or anything, its just that their is a very very real possibility of me getting jumped by people who have this absurd notion that I have money, or by thugs who get a kick out of it.
02-28-2008, 22:25
Beirut
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Why are you ok with him carrying a weapon at home, but it makes you sick to think he might do so outside his residence?
What a man does at home and what a man does in public are two entirely different things. I don`t think anyone in any country/culture/society would disagree with that.
If you want to walk around your house naked, covered in jello, carrying a handgun and singing the Soviet national anthem, feel free. Try that downtown and you`ll get a lesson in private vs. public property real fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Again, if it's about fear- it's on your part. As I've said, and should be clear, making the carrying of weapons illegal does virtually nothing to guarantee you won't be shot by someone who chooses to break the law. As Tuff alluded to, people who carry guns 'live in fear' of crime the same way people who wear seatbelts 'live in fear' of crashes- they don't. Most people who wear seatbelts hope they never need them- the same as most people who carry guns. You seem to think that if someone is legally permitted to carry a concealed weapon, you are less safe and by the opposite, you are somehow safer. That doesn't follow.
I`m not sure I would equate wearing a seatbelt with carrying a handgun, but I do see your point. I just don`t agree with it. Guns in the movie theater, guns at school, guns on airplanes, guns at work, guns at the park with the kids, guns out to dinner with the family, guns at church, guns on holiday, guns, guns guns, guns, guns. It seems less like an ideaology and more like a mental illness. I can`t see how everyone carrying a handgun all the time can be anything but a profound statement that the society they live in is out of control and has gone completely bonkers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
I don't see the harm in it- as long as he/she is a responsible, law-abiding individual.
Really?
Ok.
02-28-2008, 22:27
Beirut
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
One thing to note about weapons on airlines. Airplanes are private property, the owners can restrict possession as they see fit. Not the best example to use for this discussion.
It was a conceptual question.
02-28-2008, 23:10
drone
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
It was a conceptual question.
Maybe I should have quoted this post instead:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
By the by, and you may stuff this question in my ear if you wish - can a law abiding person carry a handgun on an airplane? If not, why not?
An airplane is private property. One of the reasons carried handguns are generally not allowed is the desire to protect that property. Federal regulations are another. If the regulations did not exist, I'm sure the airlines would still ban them, and be completely correct to do so.
02-28-2008, 23:26
Xiahou
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
I`m not sure I would equate wearing a seatbelt with carrying a handgun, but I do see your point. I just don`t agree with it. Guns in the movie theater, guns at school, guns on airplanes, guns at work, guns at the park with the kids, guns out to dinner with the family, guns at church, guns on holiday, guns, guns guns, guns, guns. It seems less like an ideaology and more like a mental illness. I can`t see how everyone carrying a handgun all the time can be anything but a profound statement that the society they live in is out of control and has gone completely bonkers.
The US must seem like a very scary place to you then. As far as I know, all but 2 states have some sort of concealed weapons permits. I guess we're completely bonkers. :smash:
02-29-2008, 01:41
Beirut
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
The US must seem like a very scary place to you then. As far as I know, all but 2 states have some sort of concealed weapons permits. I guess we're completely bonkers. :smash:
No more bonkers than us. Just better armed, perhaps.
02-29-2008, 23:10
ICantSpellDawg
Re: Another school shooting
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The National Center for Policy Analysis, a conservative think tank, reported the following statistics:[91]
* New Jersey adopted what sponsors described as "the most stringent gun law" in the nation in 1966; two years later, the murder rate was up 46% and the reported robbery rate had nearly doubled.
* In 1968, Hawaii imposed a series of increasingly harsh measures, and its murder rate tripled from a low of 2.4 per 100,000 in 1968 to 7.2 by 1977.
* In 1976, Washington, D.C., enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134% while the national murder rate has dropped 2%.
In addition:
* Over 50% of American households own guns, despite government statistics showing the number is approximately 35%, because guns not listed on any government roll were not counted during the gathering of data. [92]
* Evanston, Illinois, a Chicago suburb of 75,000 residents, became the largest town to ban handgun ownership in September 1982 but experienced no decline in violent crime.
* Among the 15 states with the highest homicide rates, 10 have restrictive or very restrictive gun laws. [93]
* Twenty percent of U.S. homicides occur in four cities with just 6% of the population—New York, Chicago, Detroit and Washington, D.C.—and each has (or, in the case of Detroit, had until 2001) a virtual prohibition on private handguns.
* UK banned private ownership of most handguns in 1997, previously held by an estimated 57,000 people—0.1% of the population. [94] Since 1998, the number of people injured by firearms in England and Wales has more than doubled, despite a massive increase in the number of police personnel.[95] In 2005-06, of 5,001 such injuries, 3,474 (69%) were defined as "slight," and a further 965 (19%) involved the "firearm" being used as a blunt instrument. Twenty-four percent of injuries were caused with air weapons, and 32% with "imitation firearms" (including BB guns and soft air weapons).[96] Since 1998, the number of fatal shootings has varied between 49 and 97, and was 50 in 2005.
* Australia forced the surrender of nearly 650,000 personal firearms in 1997. A study published in 2001 [97] shows a 47% decrease of firearms related deaths, but also reveals an overall rise in non-firearm related violent crime.
* Violent crime accelerated in Jamaica after handguns were banned. [98]
So knives in high school are okay, and handguns at college are okay, but students hugging each other is forbidden?
"From ... Virgina to ... Texas, schools are enforcing their PDA policies. leaving students to go elsewhere for that warm and fuzzy feeling."
"We feel students come to school to learn and we feel that an environment that discourages innapropriate public displays of affection is in keeping with the highest standards we could have as a community and as a school district," (school district superintendent) McGowern said.
John Lennon and Martin Luther King must be crying right now. :shame:
So knives in high school are okay, and handguns at college are okay, but students hugging each other is forbidden?
"From ... Virgina to ... Texas, schools are enforcing their PDA policies. leaving students to go elsewhere for that warm and fuzzy feeling."
"We feel students come to school to learn and we feel that an environment that discourages innapropriate public displays of affection is in keeping with the highest standards we could have as a community and as a school district," (school district superintendent) McGowern said.
John Lennon and Martin Luther King must be crying right now. :shame:
I've been to schools in Canada where that is under school rules - thankfully, it wasn't stricty enforced in most of them.
03-02-2008, 18:53
Craterus
Re: Another school shooting
The problem is that it's just too easy to get hold of guns in America. And, at risk of angering the entire American .Org population, they're not really needed either.
03-02-2008, 19:17
TruePraetorian
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craterus
The problem is that it's just too easy to get hold of guns in America. And, at risk of angering the entire American .Org population, they're not really needed either.
:furious3: :furious3: :furious3:
I don't think the problem is it's too easy to get them, I think the problem is it's too easy for lunatics to get them. The gun doesn't kill another person, a person fires the weapon which ultimatley kills the person. To get guns, I think one must pass a psychiatric test. If they are seen as unstable in any way, they cannot bear arms.
Also, you have to remember that the US was founded on many beliefs; One of those is the right to bear arms and defend yourself. Criminals can always get weapons wether they are banned or not, that's why they are criminals. The problem with taking away self-defense weapons for the "victims" in a country like the US would be devistating...seeing as we have much foreign trade and many, many enemies. Im not saying we would all be re-living the Die Hard movies, but taking away guns when your enemies have them is not the smartest thing to do.
03-02-2008, 19:29
Beirut
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
(Unrelated, but then, so was the link)
It is related. The topic of this thread is school shootings. We have an example of many schools (entire districts) where affection is outlawed and other schools (entire states I think) where weapons are permitted. How long until the same school permits handguns and outlaws kissing? It's insanity. It's not human.
What kind of a message do you think this sends to young people? Because they do pick up on these things. Sitting around the breakfast table a girl can tell her mother she got detention for hugging her boyfriend at high school while she watches her brother put a 9mm with spare mags into a holster before heading off to college. It's... nuts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I've been to schools in Canada where that is under school rules - thankfully, it wasn't stricty enforced in most of them.
I'll check that out. If true, it's as stupid here as it is anywhere.
Tell you one thing, though, Canada will land a man on the surface of the sun before we ever legalize handguns at school.
03-02-2008, 19:37
Craterus
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
:furious3: :furious3: :furious3:
I don't think the problem is it's too easy to get them, I think the problem is it's too easy for lunatics to get them. The gun doesn't kill another person, a person fires the weapon which ultimatley kills the person. To get guns, I think one must pass a psychiatric test. If they are seen as unstable in any way, they cannot bear arms.
So it's ok to limit some people's rights but not others? Way to level the field...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
Also, you have to remember that the US was founded on many beliefs; One of those is the right to bear arms and defend yourself.
That was a long time ago and a completely different situation. There is less of a need for guns now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
Criminals can always get weapons wether they are banned or not, that's why they are criminals.
And yet, I'd bet a significant percentage of gun crime happens with legally-purchased weapons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
The problem with taking away self-defense weapons for the "victims" in a country like the US would be devistating...seeing as we have much foreign trade and many, many enemies.
Many enemies? Sounds like the constant state of fear thing. Contrary to what the American media has to say, not everyone is out to get you.
03-02-2008, 20:44
ICantSpellDawg
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
It is related. The topic of this thread is school shootings. We have an example of many schools (entire districts) where affection is outlawed and other schools (entire states I think) where weapons are permitted. How long until the same school permits handguns and outlaws kissing? It's insanity. It's not human.
What kind of a message do you think this sends to young people? Because they do pick up on these things. Sitting around the breakfast table a girl can tell her mother she got detention for hugging her boyfriend at high school while she watches her brother put a 9mm with spare mags into a holster before heading off to college. It's... nuts.
I'll check that out. If true, it's as stupid here as it is anywhere.
Tell you one thing, though, Canada will land a man on the surface of the sun before we ever legalize handguns at school.
Fine - let us experiment
We are letting you experiment with gay marriage.
We are talking about universities - you are talking about 12 year olds. You bring up a stupid rule at a middle school and make it seem like the two things are comparable. They are not. Have you found a university with a "no hug rule"?
The reality is that there are not as many school shootings at middle schools that end with as many casualties as those in higher ed. Since the kids in those schools tend to be immature and there are not as many threats to their safety, guns should not be on the premises. The likelihood that those kids would turn a situation like virginia tech around is not very. There are more school shootings in highschools/universities where the merits of trained conceal carry are much more arguable. Possible reforms could include moving the 8th grade into high schools or special preparatory programs that train them for HS without as much shock. shooting list
I like guns and wouldn't feel uncomfortable if people could carry them around after some training and background checks. In NY the laws are awful - we have some of the highest crime in the developed world and hardly anybody on long island has conceal carry licenses except for off duty cops. Criminals with guns outnumber law abiding citizens with them.
Certain states take the law a bit too far and could stand to be tempered a bit. My concern is my situation in my state - which I believe to be quasi-unconstitutional and foolish. I wish we had castle law here and a few people with guns on university campuses.
03-02-2008, 21:09
Ironside
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
Also, you have to remember that the US was founded on many beliefs; One of those is the right to bear arms and defend yourself. Criminals can always get weapons wether they are banned or not, that's why they are criminals.
I suspect the big difference is just that, that your gun culture affects the criminals in such a way that you average joe criminal gets a gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
The problem with taking away self-defense weapons for the "victims" in a country like the US would be devistating...seeing as we have much foreign trade and many, many enemies. Im not saying we would all be re-living the Die Hard movies, but taking away guns when your enemies have them is not the smartest thing to do.
Foreign trade and many enemies? :inquisitive: Don't you uhm know that you got an army for that? And guns vs tanks won't end nice, especially if the guys with tanks does'nt care much about the collateral damage.
04-03-2008, 00:19
Privateerkev
Re: Another school shooting
Well, I noticed an NIU shooting thread here but it seems to have gotten wildly off-topic.
I am an NIU student. I walked by Cole not even half an hour before it happened. If anyone has any questions, I'd be happy to field them.
As for how things are lately, for most of us, it's gotten somewhat close to normal. The memorials on campus have been taken down. Our classmates are buried. The WBC was successfully kept off campus. (google Westboro Baptist Church if you don't know who I'm talking about.) The semester will go back a week to make up for the time we lost. Most everyone is just trying to get caught up in their studies.
The big arguments now are what to do with Cole Hall (it's remained closed since the shooting) and whether memorials should include a 6th cross for the shooter. (the 6th cross on the nearby Lutheran church property has been burned once already.)
As for gun-control, I'll save my comments for another thread. I have my own ideas about it but I rather talk about what happened at NIU in this thread.
04-03-2008, 01:50
KukriKhan
Re: Another school shooting
Thanks for the personal insights, Privateerkev.
Did the 6th crossburning raise much concern in the community or on campus?
04-03-2008, 03:58
Privateerkev
Re: Another school shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Thanks for the personal insights, Privateerkev.
Did the 6th crossburning raise much concern in the community or on campus?
No problem. People seem curious in general so I'm happy to help.
As for the 6th cross, it's mixed. If by concern, you mean concern over crime, then no. Mainly there is just heated debate over whether the shooter should be memorialized.
Some say he does not deserve to be in the same spot as the 5 victims. In the memorials that were on campus, any 6th cross/memorial marker would be moved or turned around.
Others say he was a victim and his families are definitely victims. Therefore he should get a cross.
The church that had their 6th cross burned argues from a religious standpoint that there should be a cross for the shooter.
And, just to show that these things bring out all sorts of people, the WBC argues that God has punished NIU for being a friendly LGBT atmosphere and that He actually sent the shooter.
04-03-2008, 14:32
naut
Re: Another school shooting
With its frequency it must be like taxes. Unavoidable.
