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I guess it means something else for you, far-right has nothing to do with racism, quite the contrary, or I couldn't think of anything more the contrary. Far right is anti-governance, do not mistake me with extreme right, which has been hijacked as well by the way.
On a side note, we have a little anniversary today. On this exact day, 9 years ago US-led NATO commited aggression on then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in an operation ironically named "Merciful Angel", supposedly to protect native Albanian population in Kosovo.
Clinton administration claimed that there were hundreds of thousands of dead Albanians, that there were mass killings in football stadiums, numerous mass graves filled with civilians. And, as we all know, later proved that it was unimportant that nothing of that were true. There were around 2000 dead, terrorists, serbian police officers and civilians all put together. There were no mass murders in football stadiums, and to this day there is no trace of those mass graves where supposedly hundreds of thousands of native Albanians were buried, although, occasionally, some mass graves of non-Albanians were found in Kosovo but that is another story...
The agression, which started 24th March, 1999 at 20:03 CET by dropping bombs on Novi Sad, lasted eleven weeks during which NATO couldn't harm Yugoslavian army, so instead turned to civilian infrastructure like roads, bridges, railways, coal plants, electrical system, television buildings and even Chinese embassy building. The direct damage estimates vary but 4 billion dollars is generally accepted (this is not counting military installations, buildings and infrastructures because in a way those were legitime targets, although it remains to be explained how can any target be legitimate in an illegitimate aggression). Total damage estimates comes between 30 and 35 billion dollars.
Novi Sad Varadin bridge.
http://content.answers.com/main/cont...bridge1999.jpg
Novi Sad Liberty bridge
http://www.webheaven.co.yu/nato/most_slobode.JPG
National Television building
http://www.ce-review.org/01/15/image...news15_rts.jpg
Passenger train on a bridge
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904...nger.train.jpg
Chinese Embassy
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/990...se.embassy.jpg
Downtown Belgrade
http://www.kosovo.net/usce.jpg
But, what is much more important than buildings or the damage to the economy, during the aggression 1500 soldiers and police officers died and 1500 civilians also lost their lives, of which 89 were children.
What is also interesting is that paradox terms like "humanitarian bombings" were frequently used by NATO to describe their actions. In the end, when NATO finally got its forces on the ground ending the supposed mass murders of Albanians, right in front there noses, we've seen exodus of about 200,000 Serbs and other non-Albanians, villages burned, churches, monasteries and other holy places desecrated, not to mention murders.
This is the basis of indepented state of Kosovo. I don't know what else to say except: "God bless America and NATO..."
Finally we reach an agreement :)Quote:
GOD BLESS POLAND!!!
I can only add
AND ITS BRAVE WARRIORS!!!!
"THE United Nations war crimes tribunal in The Hague has acquitted a former commander of the rebel Kosovo Liberation Army of all charges of war crimes in a decision that could inflame anti-Kosovo sentiment in Serbia weeks after Kosovo declared independence.
Ramush Haradinaj, who briefly served as prime minister of Kosovo three years ago, was found not guilty of the murder, persecution, rape and torture of Kosovo Serb civilians and some ethnic Albanians.
The crimes were said to have been carried out by men under his command in 1998, when the rebels fought to free their largely ethnic Albanian region from Serbian rule.
Another rebel commander, Idriz Balaj, was also acquitted, while a third defendant, Lahi Brahimaj, was sentenced to six years in prison for torture and cruel treatment of prisoners.
The two men are expected to receive heroes' welcomes on their return home.
In summarising the verdict, the judges said the trial had many shortcomings, including vague evidence and widespread fear among witnesses, suggesting the full version of events had not been told.
The full judgment is not yet available, but in their summary, the judges gave weight to evident intimidation of witnesses, stressing that although the court heard almost 100 witnesses, they had great difficulty in getting many to testify freely. They said they granted 34 witnesses permission to hide their identities, that 18 were subpoenaed because they refused to testify and that others said they dared not talk once they were in court.
Prosecutors complained repeatedly about pressure on the witnesses, saying that it had been greater than in any other trial at the tribunal.
Those most afraid, prosecutors said, were former fellow rebel fighters who had been expected to testify as insiders. At least three designated witnesses were killed before the trial, prosecutors said.
For Serbs, the acquittal of two of the former rebel commanders, whose forces were backed and supported by the West, is likely to be viewed as one more insult.
Kosovo has long been portrayed as a victim of Serbia. Only one other case at the tribunal has focused on abuses and killings by Kosovo Liberation Army fighters, although human rights groups have documented numerous killings and instances of mistreatment of those not siding with the rebels."
I can’t wait the non-guilty verdict for Croat Ante Gotovina. I suppose the 200,000 Serbs would have left their home on voluntarily basis.
Killing Serbs is not a crime for The Hague… The farce is on...:clown:
Brenus, unless the text above is entirely your own work, you need to provide a credit or source and ideally a link.
Not doubting your assertions, it's just a courtesy to the original authors.
:bow:
This is one of the reasons why international law continues to have so little credibility; its strongest governmental backers (liberal interventionists) are content to ignore it when it is convenient for them.
I am not so sure about those numbers, but it is a fact that Nato intervention provoked and condoned inverse ethnic cleansing on a massive scale, and that the practice is still going on today. The degree of western support for Albanian nationalists in Kosovo was a huge mistake, no doubt about it. The bombings didn't even rid the world of Milosevic; his early retirement had to be 'bought' later on with a huge EU aid package.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Sadly, most post-1989 humanitarian interventions have been disasters.
I knew that thread would prove useful. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
What is your problem, exactly? The moment that the tribunal prosecutes a non-Serb you criticize it because they supposedly only do it to appease the Serbs, and when they acquit a non-Serb it's because they're out to screw them?
There isn't really any doubt about the double standards at work here. It is a matter of common knowledge that Western diplomats pressured the chief prosecutor to drop the case, and when Western countries, which basically run Kosovo as a mandate territory, aren't going to cooperate with the prosecution what chance is there that the case will succeed?
Prosecutor: "We are going to prosecute X, Y, and Z. We need you stop their militia intimidating and killing witnesses."
West: "You can't do that, they are respected political leaders, we won't accede to your request."
Prosecutor: "They are war criminals."
West: "You can't prove that."
Prosecutor: "Because the witnesses are being intimidated and killed."
As has been pointed out, verdicts like this (especially when compared to the 27 year sentence given to the Bosnian Serb speaker of parliament) make it even less likely that actual Serb war criminals will ever be brought before the court, because it is irredeemably tainted with bias and/or dysfunction.
Funny thing is that the U.S. fully supports this tribunal whilst refusing to join the International Criminal Court, and for the very same reasons: bias and dysfunctionality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious Mental
[lunatic_jumping_in_front_of_the_crowd]
IF THERE WERE NO POLES, I'D QUIT BEING A TURK TODAY !!!1111EPICEPICEPIC
WITH FULL RESPECT TO MARTIANS, OF KOORZEZ.
Oh Poland,
Shall you rise
Very high
With Turkey
I know
This does not
Sound like
A Song
Dedicated
To Two
Heroic nations
But at least
I tried
With my full
Respect to
Ray Charles
Thanks.
[/lunatic_jumping_in_front_of_the_crowd]
:poland: :smoking: :turkey: > :texas:
I don't have the exact data, but 200,000 refugees, mostly Serbs but not exlusively, is a pretty accurate figure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
The bombing actually helped Milosevic. He was very low at the polls at that time, I think it was an all time low. The bombing allowed him to take the mantle of defender of the country. That's why we had ellections in the year 2000, not in the 2002 when they were scheduled. He hoped to use this to get another 5 years, but it backfired...
I can't help but wonder why those humanitarian missions have been disasters. Let's say that all those reports were true, and that Milosevic clear goal was to ethinically cleanse Kosovo of all Albanians (it seems a bit far fetched but still)... Now in that case Nato was ready to organize entire bombing campaign that involved numerous countries, spend millions/billions of dollars, act without the authorization of the UN etc... but in the other case when it already had troops on the ground, whose only responsibility was to prevent that from happening - did nothing. The question is why....
Please tell me guys, am I being paranoid here? What's the reason for it?
Biggest problem with all these peace mission is that no one understand that if two sides are fighting war, they hear only real strenght. Not some soldiers who at least will be trying to stop them but real strenght which can destroy them easy and won't be wasting time on deliberations.
If NATO or UN sometimes behaved like Mongols ("you don't respect us so you will be killed without shadow of mercy") total number of deaths would be lower. Look at Sierra Leone - if UN attacks there and started massive killing both sides soldiers (these dumbs should be killed all IMO - no clean side) and after killing 50% told rest to stay and respect UN orders - they would do that.
Now when UN call sides to casefire it looks like Pope into mtw 2 - Pope is being listen only if you benefit from that.
And one more
LONG LIVE TURKEY - Their government case into Constitutional Courts shows us that turkish separation of powers is 10 times better than into corrupted EU.
Krook, when the van comes, come quietly :laugh4:
Now that's probably around the second point that you've ever made that I agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
I thought my sarcasm was too overwhelmingly obvious. I was wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
@ LEN - Thank you for that, you made my day :laugh4:
Sorry: Article from the “The Sydney Morning Herald, Kosovo leader cleared after troubled trial, Marlise Simons in Paris, April 5, 2008”.:shame:
“The moment that the tribunal prosecutes a non-Serb you criticize it because they supposedly only do it to appease the Serbs,”: Ok. I see a Big misunderstanding here.
I don’t criticise the prosecution of a non-Serb because it supposed to appease the Serbs, I criticise the Tribunal for the fact that almost all non-Serbs are found none guilty.
The charges are down-sized at a ridiculous level (Gotovina charged with 35 people killed, when without any evidences and no bodies, News and The Hague talk about 20,000 “genocided” in Srebrenica…)
The Hague just prosecutes a non-Serb just to find him non-guilty…:clown:
“Please tell me guys, am I being paranoid here?” You are Serb. It is the “bomb the Serbs” politic. Sorry.:beam:
I can see the very democratic aspect of a very democratic Republic of Kosovo, repecting all minorities' human rapes, err, rights.
Kosovo je srbja
You know, I don't know how we (Serbs) managed to pick a fight with every powerful state in its prime. Since we came to the Balkans, we had wars and uneasy relationship with Byzantium, later with the Ottomans during their prime. After they became too weak we switched to Habsburgs, with them gone we managed to piss of Hitler's Germany, immediately after that we said piss off to the Soviet Union and now, at the beggining of the 21st century we were involved in conflict with the US. I guess that's goint to last until China takes over as number one and then we have to think of something to annoy them :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Seriously Brenus, you need to stop defending Serbs here, you're gona lose your credibility :laugh4:
@Boyar Son
you need an "i" between "b" and "j" - Srbija
Peeing off China would be the best way to end your impopularity. Le Monde would write: 'Nous sommes tous des Serbes' and all of Europe would be behind you (except Montenegro of course :laugh4: ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Seriously, there are many encouraging developments in Serbia and in the wider region. The handling of the Montenegro issue is one of them. I hope "Kosovo" will be handled in equally peaceful fashion, new leaves will be turned and we can all go admire your beautiful capital, this time without ill-advised aerial support...
Oh thanks:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
"your beautiful capital": Er, Adrian, don't push too far. Belgrade isn't beautifull, except few spots, as the Fortress, perhaps the pedestrian Street (forget the name)...
Novi Sad is the town to go, with the Danube and the Strand. Nice ice creams in Dunavska Ulica, honest pizeria (I miss the Hungarian pizza), cheap beers and cigarettes (ok, I did smoke Croats ones), nice pubs, cevapi etc...
"you need to stop defending Serbs here": Err, I don't defend the Serbs as such. When they do (did) wrong I said and say it. I am against double standarts.
And my best man is a Serb. The translation is Kum, so you know what that means. In fact, I have to...:beam:
Friends and colleagues who have been there tell me Belgrade rocks. They say it's like Paris, only with twice the sense of humour and twice the number of pretty girls. That's good enough for me, even though Novi Sad may be beautiful as well. Novi is more intimate, more intellectual, more ethnically mixed than Belgrade, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Apparently, Serbians have a real problem with authority. ~;) Start importing some punk bands to the US, our kids have lost their edge, and the music sucks. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
“They say it's like Paris, only with twice the sense of humour and twice the number of pretty girls”
Pure Propaganda: the Germans during Operation Punishment in 1941, almost destroyed Belgrade. And what the Germans missed the Americans finished it in 1944.
Tito rebuilt Belgrade in a pure Stalinistic Architectural Style (see Novi Beograd) and all the Danube River Banks are either factory either buildings looking like factories.
Knez Mihajlova, I remember the name, is quite good (French Cultural Centre is there) but all other streets are more like New York Style than old Paris.
For pretty girls, yes, they are. The melting pot between West East and South had created really beautiful girls.
If you go South (in Sumadija), moustache starts to appear.
And do like Serbian sense of humour… A black and cruel one: After they shot down a B2, they print a card stating: “Sorry, we didn’t seen it”.
An F-117 if I remember correctly. And if I remember correctly again, their speaker said: 'Of course, if only we had known that it was invisible we wouldn't have shot it down'...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
An F-117 traveling along frequently traveled and publicized flight path in our effort to fight another "clean" war. :shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Do you know more about that? There was talk of a Russian magnetic device used by the Serbs. Others say it was just a lucky shot, still others claim the plane crashed due to malfunctioning software (which it uses a lot because it has no large mechanical stabilizers). Yet others spoke of a Serb spy in Nato headquarters who briefed Belgrade on flight paths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Somebody once told me that the Serbs managed to screw up the guidance of plane launched missiles by using rigged microwave ovens. Does anyone know if this is true? (or even possible? :inquisitive: )
No sources I can recall due to the passage of time. If it was the result of some Russian "magic" device the scenario would become very complicated. Who crewed the device? How did it get there? Why weren't more of them shot down? Magnetic devices are good at spotting large amounts of submerged metal but not so good at finding plastic floating in the sky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Truth is that we did submit our flight plans to some foreign (or the actual) FAA and the details weren't classified. The Russians may have a hand in the shootdown but it was most likely in the form of information.
Well, I believe we hit one more. It managed to land in Hungary but it was beyond repairs. One could be a lucky shot but two lucky shots are improbable so there was definitly something at work. I've heard many theories ranging from using some advanced russian equipment to using some ancient ww2 radars that didn't have some sort of filters (I'm not very well versed in this militaty stuff) that managed to spot the plane. Of course spies and intelligence leaks are somewhere in between. But nothing official is known.
When the first one was down, commander of AA defence at the press conference only confirmed that it was down and said "Don't ask me how". So I guess it will remain a mystery for some time.
Unfortunately, 1999 bombing was anything but a "clean war". After 79 days of bombing Serbian Army wasn't even scratched, but there was a lot of civilian buildings, infrastructure, power plants, TV buildings etc.... destroyed and civilian casualties surpassed military ones...
Like the Serbian campaign in Kosovo, you mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Concerning the Russian device, the spy or the radar, I suppose there are reasonable explanations for everything - if only there was a shred of evidence...
But Sarmatian sure has a point about 'clean wars'. If you terrorize the enemy by hitting civilians, radio stations and unimportant bridges, but no enemy soldiers, how cool is that? :shame:
That was used as an excuse for the aforementioned "clean war". Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dead Albanian civilians, mass executed on football stadiums. But the problem is that Hudini rose from the grave and made them disappear along with that WMD in Iraq, that bastard...Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Since we're talking about serbian humour I thought it would be fun to post some graffitis that were written during the bombing. Unfortunately, 90% of them lose the joke in translation I'll post several that don't...
1. Last phase of the war - Humanitarian action of saving Nato
2. Give one radio locator (for guiding missiles) to Madeleine Albright - she needs to be hit with something hard
3. :daisy: Apaches, we've had enough of Indians, send some cowboys
4. 13 nominations for Academy Award - Saving of private Stoun, Ramirez, Gonzales and Zelko
5. Mr. Clinton, come to visit us, signed Gavrilo Princip
6. Another F117A taken down and now sports...
7. It's not true that CNN lies! They're right when they say: "You are watching CNN..."
8. Monica, let go of that, you don't know where it's been...
9. Contest: Collect 6 radio locators and you get a Tomahawk, organized by USAF
10. You amateurs, you can't even make an invisible plane properly!
11. To Russians: Don't be afraid, Serbia is with you...
12. Clinton to his wife: "Where is our dog?" Hillary: "Tony? We left him in England."
13. Clinton: "Monica was good, but Tony's better"
14. In Serbia we finally saw the invisible (graffiti in Skopje, Macedonia)
15. I'm selling F 117A, low mileage, in good condition, can be sold in parts.
16. It's your brains that's invisible
17. I'm selling a piece of arable land in Budjanovci (small village in Srem where F 117 fell) and I'll throw in a stealth plane for free...
18. Sorry about that. Do you have an F 118?
19. Budjanovci - Nato 1:0. Well, Budjanovci did have a home court advantage
The Serbian treatment of it's own citizens was uncivilized, and you got an uncivilized response. Who wudda thunk it :dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
“The Serbian treatment of it's own citizens was uncivilized, and you got an uncivilized response”: Can’t really comment on the first statement, however to answer to uncivilised by uncivilised means is a little bit short.
That is is. But it's how our world is being run. After Milosevic sent his military, there was no other option but war. If he had sent police forces instead and tried diplomacy, there would be no war(assuming they didn't gun down people).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Act civilized, and you get treated civilized. Act like a barbarian, and you get a barbarian response.
Well, mostly anyway.
Particularly if those means are used in a 'humanitarian' intervention. If you can call it that anyway. The use of ground troops had been excluded from the start and Nato didn't know what to bomb half the time. Yet every night we saw Nato spokesman Jamie Shea talking out of his Cockney rectum about its attacks on refugee convoys, the town centre of Pristina or hospitals, about the number of Serbian tanks destroyed, about the use of depleted uranium munitions or about indications that the Albanians had started their own campaign of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
And yet again you show your ignorance. Only police forces were used. Army only provided intelligence, and I believe special forces were used in a few occassions. That's the reason there were so many police casualties (around 500 in 1997,1998 and beggining of 1999), they weren't really equiped and trained to deal with organized terrorists with military equipment and training.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
There were only 2000 casualties (and use the term only very loosely here, only in comparison to inflated figures Nato presented, for me 1 casualty is too many), around 500 Serbian policemen and most of the rest KLA members.
Now, no doubt Milosevic methods were rather brutal often with excessive force, but were far less brutal than the methods KLA and later Nato used....
What does it matter who did it? IT WAS DONE!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
“IT WAS DONE!”: What: The burning of the villages, the "ethnic cleansing"? It did happen AFTER the start of the bombing campaign. Well, the Serbs couldn’t retaliate against the US, could they? I even remember this pathetic episode when the Serbs captured 2 US soldiers, and the entire world yelling because they were in Macedonia, out of the game…
“Act like a barbarian, and you get a barbarian response.” So basically you agree with Milosevic’s politic… Because it was the KLA who put bombs in Refugees camps, which started the terror campaign against the scatted rural Serbian population, kidnapping, rapes and torture…
So, according to you, they got what they deserved.
I forgot… Serbian victims don’t count…:clown:
Beware this post will include ignorance!
IMO if the Kosovo people are unique enough and want to be their own country, let them. Why not?
In the UK right now they are talking about Scotland becoming its own country. I am from Scotland but I get the sick feeling that lots of Scots are going to want independance because they watched Braveheart a few times.
We went through 2 World Wars together, Scotland and England. Neither would exist without the other, this is our Island that we share... WE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE!! The way it is at the moment is brilliant. But it is a fact that there are more fools in a country than not, so Scotland may well end up "independant" because Mel Gibsons fantastic acting abilities.
sigh
Some people here never cease to amaze me.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
Welcome back to the 30's crappy nationalistic era.
Exactly. The resistance against a free Kosovo stems from what I'd like to call neo-imperialism, lacking a better word. Lands and people should belong to a certain state against the will of the majority of said people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius Dynamite
Do you realize you just made a case for partitioning of just about every country in the world with that sentence?
And how is hat bad? If people want their own country, I say go for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Can't really care either way. I don't support those who wants to secede, nor do I support those who wants to keep the country together.
So says a resident from a country who violated international law when it declared independence.
And how is hat bad? If people want their own country, I say go for it.” Well, it shouldn’t THAT bad if the new “republic” wouldn’t insist to keep in her borders people who don’t want to be part of it. The Kosovo wants International Untouchable Borders, so protected by the same law that they broke. Kosovo refuse partition to the Serbs, but want partition from Serbia. Kosovo declared it will not accept parallel institutions which they practice a lot. Kosovo just wants to prevent others to do what it did.:beam:
What justice a Serb can expect from a Kosovar Court, when you see what The Hague did…:clown:
Plus the fact that this partition was impose by force, namely the NATO bombing campaign followed by the Ethnic Cleansing of the none Albanians population under the eyes of the Vice-Roy Kouchner, actually minister of Foreign Affairs in France. All this are against the International Treaties…
By the way, a new intellectual, French, after Kouchner who recognises he lied during the Bosnian War about the Concentration Camp, Simone Weil, first Female minister in French History, survivor of Auschwitz, just wrote that what she saw there was nothing compare the Camps…
I can’t wait for the Memoirs of Madeleine Albright who will explain that Srebrenica massacre satellite pictures never existed…
About book, apparently Carla Del Ponte had things to say: Murderers of Serbs were never investigated… She won’t get the Pulitzer with this kind of scoop..:beam:
Yes. E.g., it is methods of ETA that I view despicable, not their claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Then again, we did not say the Serbs in Kosovo should not be able to join Serbia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
"An appeals panel at the UN War Crimes tribunal has cut jail terms for two former Bosnian Muslim army commanders.
Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura had been convicted over atrocities committed by their troops, including foreign Islamic mujahideen fighters, during the Balkan wars of the 1990s.
The victims were Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Serb civilians.
Kubura's sentence was trimmed to two years, Hadzihasanovic's to three and a half years.
Time already served means freedom for both men, who were among the highest-ranking Bosnian Muslims to have stood trial in the Hague." Euro News today.
The farce is still running...:clown: