ISIS on the offensive in Iraq

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Originally Posted by Tuuvi

If Islamic State manages to survive the civil war and establish itself as a fully fledged nation than it will resemble North Korea in a lot of ways. Both IS and North Korea are ruled by ideologically based regimes which allow very little human rights and punish dissent with death.

IS is interested in governance as well as jihad. It's establishing courts and civil institutions, coining money, and it even gives welfare to the poor. According to its propaganda housing and healthcare in the caliphate are free. If you are Sunni and you follow their laws ISIS will not kill you.

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That's a joke, right? North Korea is a country that was established where there was already a country and it wants to stay that way. The caliphate was established where no comparable country was before and it plans to integrate the entire world into the "country". North Korea does not want to come here and kill me for not being Sunni, the caliphate does. The difference is almost an entire planet. That ISIS is interested in government makes it as much similar to North Korea as it makes it similar to Belgium. The major difference is in who they want to subdue/kill. Belgium comes out ahead in that comparison by the way.

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Originally Posted by Tuuvi

If Islamic State manages to survive the civil war and establish itself as a fully fledged nation than it will resemble North Korea in a lot of ways. Both IS and North Korea are ruled by ideologically based regimes which allow very little human rights and punish dissent with death.

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This is a non sequitur.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

It's entirely fair for us to let anything happen. It's not us actively making these things happen, so why should we be held accountable for things that other people do? If we do go out of our way to make the world a better place, then we should be praised for it, but we shouldn't be expected to do it. And if those people are hating us for doing that, then I see no point in doing so, and they can have their own dump of a place to rule. No skin off my nose if they decide to have their own hellhole on earth, as long as they don't interfere with my life.

And after our wonderful efforts to topple the brutal dictator in Libya, that place is now awash with Islamists chopping the heads of Christians. I wish Saddam and Qaddafi were still in power to keep these nutters down, and thank goodness Assad managed to hang on despite the best efforts of our wonderful Liberal Democratic evangelists.

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So, at the end of the day, you see little alternative to a series of brutal thugs clamping a lid on things?

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

So, at the end of the day, you see little alternative to a series of brutal thugs clamping a lid on things?

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For the time being, yeah that would be better for the people there. Living in a dictatorship must be horrible but what we see now is the new Heart of Darkness. Better to keep your head down than having it cut off.

“So, at the end of the day, you see little alternative to a series of brutal thugs clamping a lid on things?” We could have helped if, prior our military intervention, we didn’t help the dictators to get rid of their opposition.
We trained the dictators’ police against the “Communists” (I use communists in a broad sense, as communists were from farmers protesting against the land grabbing, unionists asking for pay rise to real communists, even if democratically elected), we helped all the wars against movement requesting little autonomy from Central government from Indonesia to Guatemala. We invaded without any thinking any country that didn’t line-up with our policy, or resisted against our interests. In the name of anti-communism, we forgot that the 1st enemy of communism are Nazism and fascism.
So, the only way, path, road for protest in dictatorships was the one we didn’t see as dangerous: religious. We thought that Islam could melt in democracy as Christianity did, like the good Social Democrats Parties in Europe.
In clamping the wheel of democracy by fear of unwanted political developments, we just created a monster, and as the Dr Frankenstein, we don’t know how to stop our creature.

"The most extravagant idea that can be born in the head of a political thinker is to believe that it suffices for people to enter, weapons in hand, among a foreign people and expect to have its laws and constitution embraced. No one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence is to repulse them as enemies" Maximilien Robespierre, 2 January 1792, opposing the Revolutionary Wars in order to free the rest of Europe from Tyranny.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

So, at the end of the day, you see little alternative to a series of brutal thugs clamping a lid on things?

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Given that a liberal democracy installed by us isn't a practical option, a dictatorship of their own kind is preferable in all aspects, most importantly for us. At least the neocons had the excuse of pipedreams prior to Iraq. However, those who wanted interventions in the same region post-Iraq ignored the clear example set by Iraq. What's that definition of madness again?

I got a nice thought for ya, what if the guys who died in Syria aren't really dead but just declared dead, and among te numerous amount of refugees the EU wants us to let in. Can somebody explain to me why that is a really stupid thing to say.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I got a nice thought for ya, what if the guys who died in Syria aren't really dead but just declared dead, and among te numerous amount of refugees the EU wants us to let in. Can somebody explain to me why that is a really stupid thing to say.

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Only if you can explain why it is a stupid thing to say that really clever lizard shapeshifters rule our planet.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Only if you can explain why it is a stupid thing to say that really clever lizard shapeshifters rule our planet.

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It's true though, we are importing sleepers who come here with fake ID's

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It's true though, we are importing sleepers who come here with fake ID's

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Can you explain what the Islamic State would gain from that? They need a lot of fighters in their own state and the goals of their state are probably not going to advance a lot if they terrorize Europe. Why would they invite fighters to come there in the first place instead of telling them to bomb things here? I mean they already have sympathizers here, why go to the trouble of importing people who already are here to the caliphate and exporting others with fake IDs through the refugee system? It's not impossible, but it seems like more trouble than it's worth. It sounds more like a scare tactic from people who don't like refugees.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Can you explain what the Islamic State would gain from that? They need a lot of fighters in their own state and the goals of their state are probably not going to advance a lot if they terrorize Europe. Why would they invite fighters to come there in the first place instead of telling them to bomb things here? I mean they already have sympathizers here, why go to the trouble of importing people who already are here to the caliphate and exporting others with fake IDs through the refugee system? It's not impossible, but it seems like more trouble than it's worth. It sounds more like a scare tactic from people who don't like refugees.

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training

They believe he was a prophet, no?

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
In fact... the whole of Matthew 5.

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Originally Posted by Husar

That's a joke, right? North Korea is a country that was established where there was already a country and it wants to stay that way. The caliphate was established where no comparable country was before and it plans to integrate the entire world into the "country". North Korea does not want to come here and kill me for not being Sunni, the caliphate does. The difference is almost an entire planet. That ISIS is interested in government makes it as much similar to North Korea as it makes it similar to Belgium. The major difference is in who they want to subdue/kill. Belgium comes out ahead in that comparison by the way.

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No. I was trying to compare human rights and political freedoms, not foreign policy objectives. The point was, IS is a brutally repressive regime, like that of North Korea, and I wouldn't wish a regime like IS upon Iraq and Syria.

Also, do you have a source for the claim that IS wants to conquer the entire world? I thought they only want to rule Muslim lands, but I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

This is a non sequitur.

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How?

"training" For suicide attack?

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Originally Posted by Tuuvi

Also, do you have a source for the claim that IS wants to conquer the entire world? I thought they only want to rule Muslim lands, but I could be wrong.

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I linked that video interview with an IS fighter earlier who said they will come and conquer Europe and more of the world. They also made propaganda videos about that relatively early on.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

training

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How to strap on a vest 101? Does it require a terror camp to teach that or do they want to secretly smuggle an entire army as asylum seekers into the rest of the world? If they train someone to be a soldier, they probably need him in Iraq given the bombings and the support the surrounding factions receive from outside. The Iraqi army is currently brokering a deal with the German and Czech governments to procure old DDR infantry fighting vehicles (BMPs I assume) that Germany sold to Czechoslovakia after the reunification. The Kurds received weapons from the West and I assume Russia isn't really going to let Assad down although I haven't really heard much about that/him lately. And don't say training to learn how to appear European, the people and converts who are already here would still be much better suited for that. Everybody is worried about people going from Europe to the IS and now we're supposed to be worried about them coming back as asylum seekers?

Again, sounds like a scare tactic to keep asylum seekers out, as though their lives weren't hard enough already. Besides, it'd be much easier to give them some money from those huge terror funds and make them migrate as businessmen or come as tourists since rich people can come here far, far easier than asylum seekers who are often poor and endangered and have to make a convincing case for the latter part.

Here is how it goes http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikegiglio/i...ope#.twWWk9V39

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Here is how it goes http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikegiglio/i...ope#.twWWk9V39

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Thanks for the link. So they are doing it, but what about this part?

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An official with the Turkish foreign ministry said in an emailed statement that authorities were working to combat refugee-smuggling generally. He pointed out that Europe accepts relatively few refugees through legal channels — a fact that likely increases the demand for smuggling. “Illegal migration has been an important issue and Turkey is effectively fighting against it,” said the official, who declined to be named.

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You said the EU wants us to take all these refugees, but maybe you forgot how the EU has a private company that patrols the borders, is not exactly known for being nice and how the governments of several countries do not stick by EU rules regarding immigration. The rules are constantly broken by Italy and Spain who sometimes expell asylum seekers who make it onto their land. Just watch some documentary about the Spanish exclaves in Africa where the few Africans who make it over the three fences are often sent back against the law after they got beaten up by border police. Those who don't make it are beaten up by the Morroccan police (who get paid for that by Spain) and even those who are let in are sent to some sort of internment camps which often operate above capacity. To say that Europe is somehow this welcoming land of naive leftists is completely off the mark.

And illegal immigration is basically illegal, that's why it is called illegal immigration, how does that lead to complaints of we should do something against it when we already have a border patrol force that is constantly accused of committing atrocities? Should we build a wall through the mediterranean sea?

Maybe we just shouldn't be nice? Send back ships, and use development aid for regions where it is required, refugees could go there without us hauling in a risky bunch. Attacks in Europe are going to happen if we allow Syrian refugees, nobody but an idiot still doubts that. It is not necesary to take that risk.

If they come in illegally, basically avoiding our law enforcement, how would it help not to be nice to the ones we catch? The ones we don't catch would still get in even if we behead or burn the ones we catch...

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Originally Posted by Husar

If they come in illegally, basically avoiding our law enforcement, how would it help not to be nice to the ones we catch? The ones we don't catch would still get in even if we behead or burn the ones we catch...

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Send back the ships while they are in international waters. And make sure refugees get a good treatment regionally so there is no reason to come to Europe. Filter out the scum and help those in need of help.

It's never going to be foolproof of course thanks to the EU with their open borders policy but at least it's a better idea.

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Originally Posted by Tuuvi

How?

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The same way that me eating a banana will bring about the dragon kingdom, or the Roman Empire magically coming back with all its provinces intact by next Thursday.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

the EU with their open borders policy

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I agree that solving problems abroad would actually be a good idea, but why do you keep saying this?

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013.../fron-o28.html

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The European Union (EU) has responded to the refugee crisis in Lampedusa by hermetically sealing off its borders and expanding the police apparatus used to repel refugees.
On October 10, just a week after over 360 refugees were drowned off the Italian island of Lampedusa, the European Parliament adopted its so-called Eurosur Regulation, which provides for the use of drones, satellites and offshore sensors to detect refugees in the Mediterranean.

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Frontex are accused of all sorts of things, including turning the mediterranean into a mass grave and all sorts of human rights abuses, yet they keep getting more money and more rights by the EU while you claim that the EU is in favor of open borders. :dizzy2:

Once they are in they can go everywhere. National borders must return.

The EU also wired millions euros to Mugabe, because... uhhh, don't know, surely that could have could have been better spend to make life a bit easier for refugees out there in the IS-hell.

Now they're gaining more support in ultra-liberal Sweden and as usual the mega-liberal police aren't doing anything about it.

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201502241203-0024580

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Originally Posted by Husar

Now they're gaining more support in ultra-liberal Sweden and as usual the mega-liberal police aren't doing anything about it.

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201502241203-0024580

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What's your point. I could make the point that IS-tactics just work. Ridiucle is normal after all, just like to socalled Stockholm syndrome people will mentally block everything they know is going on at the moment. And yes I got a degree in it but I don't find it all that interesting as people are dumb anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WMO...ature=youtu.be

This is the most shocking video IS has released to date IMHO... Absolutely revolting. This hurt me right in the antiquity lover that I am...

~Fluvius

Nice ain't it, what a waste. Savages. These mentally challenged inbreeds probably didn't even know what they were destroying, I bet our house-Assyrian wants a word with them.

There's no place for offensively shaped stones in the religiously cleansed caliphate.
All the culture they need are beards and men rapping (since singing is a sin, no?) quran verses or whatever the background music is.

And Fragony, why does there always have to be a point? This is not the point you are looking for...

Also, bored rich kid? http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/0...110541697.html

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Media outlets have identified "Jihadi John" - the suspect featuring in several Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant beheading videos - as Mohammed Emwazi from London.

The Washington Post newspaper named Emwazi and said he was a Briton from a well-to-do family who grew up in West London and graduated from college with a degree in computer programming.
The BBC later said it too had learned that Emwazi was the suspect in question.

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Did I make a point. But was a lot of cultural heritage you see being destroyed there by some inbred mongrol who's brains was fucked out his skull by centuries of keeping it in the family. This is really such a waste. And yeah, bored rich kid, they have the money to pay for the plane after all.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

some inbred mongrol who's brains was fucked out his skull by centuries of keeping it in the family

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I realize that the point has already been made for you regarding Jihad Johnny, but you have to realize that there are plenty of people who will do this stuff because they are bored/don't care/psychotic/edgy to the max. You can be very well educated and just feel like sawing a dude's head off one day. You don't have to be from a specific culture. You don't need to be from a specific race. You don't have to follow a certain belief.

Every single human being on earth has the capacity to become a walking abomination. It does not seem to take much to sway them in either direction.