04/12 Generic Fantasy WW Game Thread

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Originally Posted by Insaner

Uh I don't really understand what you mean. But it seems like it's making you wolf read Cuth more so I'm okay with that.

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It sounds like he's saying he doesn't want to vote Monty? But he was already voting him? Idgi

I'm hardly addressing you alone Zack - there are other people like Monty and Insaner who I think are probably town who are voting Cuth right now and pushing for him to get lynched.

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Originally Posted by Newyn

I'm hardly addressing you alone Zack - there are other people like Monty and Insaner who I think are probably town who are voting Cuth right now and pushing for him to get lynched.

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Your read on Cuth = my read on Barto on D1.

Cuth and GH are the final wolves. Of that I have no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Insaner

Your read on Cuth = my read on Barto on D1.

Cuth and GH are the final wolves. Of that I have no doubt.

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I'm not going to claim I have a god read on Cuth like some people who seem to think they have someone figured out just because they were right in a few games but I've watched Cuth play for longer than almost everyone here.

I'm not going to bet my mafia career on Cuth been town but his posts are definitely not so bad that he deserves to be the day 2 lynch after voting a wolf yesterday.

Also Vote:Egix in case I don't have time to post tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by dyachei

need a live playerlist if anyone has one.

think barto's push on monty looks fairly not w/w so I'm comfortable keeping monty in my top towns

I think zack still looks good, too, for his d1 and his read of barto. I think he's fallen off a bit today, but I like yesterday enough he can stay there, too.

I saw some of the interactions merl1n posted for ladd and agree ladd probably not a wolf, either. And the work merl1n is putting in at this stage looks pretty good

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Originally Posted by dyachei

thanks insaner

Town
Montmorency
Zack
ladd
insaner

lean town
fable
merl1n
GH
logic

null
Chox
csargo
cuth
egix
newyn

lean wolf

wolf

I obviously have some work to do today to work out what to do with my null section. And yeah, i'm aware of chox' claim

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I find this "I need a live playerlist" then following up with a readslist suspicious. It does explain the large number of nulls, but you can always put out a readslist omitting the people you don't remember.
I'm currently giving Dya a scumlean for this, but it also feels like wolf!Dya would try harder than this.

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Originally Posted by dyachei

need a live playerlist if anyone has one.

think barto's push on monty looks fairly not w/w so I'm comfortable keeping monty in my top towns

I think zack still looks good, too, for his d1 and his read of barto. I think he's fallen off a bit today, but I like yesterday enough he can stay there, too.

I saw some of the interactions merl1n posted for ladd and agree ladd probably not a wolf, either. And the work merl1n is putting in at this stage looks pretty good

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Originally Posted by Egix

Cos Monty said so?
Y'know, the same guy you said was being a revisionist irt that Chess Mafia game?

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@Zack Brannigan
I also said so.
Short version: In Chess, Pizza laser focused on my scum tells. GH was my scum buddy that game, and HARD DEFENDED me like never have I been defended before or since. GH also knows my scum tells, and has correctly identified my in every game he has spectated or been a villager in before the end of D1. You can count on GH answering the opposite of my flip as a guaranteed wolf in GH (so far this is 2/2, lol)

The main reason I'm not giving GH a pass this game is that last game I was in with him (in Dya's words, "That OTHER Game" that just finished) he was a wolf, and I a villager, and he called me a wolf there, so he might be gun-shy about trying to do the same thing two games in a row.

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Originally Posted by dyachei

need a live playerlist if anyone has one.

think barto's push on monty looks fairly not w/w so I'm comfortable keeping monty in my top towns

I think zack still looks good, too, for his d1 and his read of barto. I think he's fallen off a bit today, but I like yesterday enough he can stay there, too.

I saw some of the interactions merl1n posted for ladd and agree ladd probably not a wolf, either. And the work merl1n is putting in at this stage looks pretty good

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Also, lol on me for mentioning you in a post I made summing up chess when you were also my partner in that game. Sorry Zack, it's early for me (5:20 AM)

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Originally Posted by Logic

I find this "I need a live playerlist" then following up with a readslist suspicious. It does explain the large number of nulls, but you can always put out a readslist omitting the people you don't remember.
I'm currently giving Dya a scumlean for this, but it also feels like wolf!Dya would try harder than this.

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I wanted to be able to sort my thoughts and couldn't remember who was in the game. I usually don't have to ask for this on MU, I can just pull it up on my own. It's more for me? Like i use it to sort my thinking?

anyway, you can update it with csargo in the lean wolf category

vote: Csargo

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Originally Posted by Logic

@Zack Brannigan
I also said so.
Short version: In Chess, Pizza laser focused on my scum tells. GH was my scum buddy that game, and HARD DEFENDED me like never have I been defended before or since. GH also knows my scum tells, and has correctly identified my in every game he has spectated or been a villager in before the end of D1. You can count on GH answering the opposite of my flip as a guaranteed wolf in GH (so far this is 2/2, lol)

The main reason I'm not giving GH a pass this game is that last game I was in with him (in Dya's words, "That OTHER Game" that just finished) he was a wolf, and I a villager, and he called me a wolf there, so he might be gun-shy about trying to do the same thing two games in a row.

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What I get from this is that if GH flips scum, we should snap lynch Logic because he's already planting the "GH only called me town this game cause he can't scum read me as scum two games in a row" defence.

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Originally Posted by dyachei

I wanted to be able to sort my thoughts and couldn't remember who was in the game. I usually don't have to ask for this on MU, I can just pull it up on my own. It's more for me? Like i use it to sort my thinking?

anyway, you can update it with csargo in the lean wolf category

vote: Csargo

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I'm not sure about Csargo. For me, he's sitting right in his normal meta of "null until he's a liability." When he scums with enthusiasm, he's right in the middle of the pack the whole game, but not in a null way, in a swingy way (this post feels good, but this one doesn't, etc.) When he scums without enthusiasm, he's better than me at my best*, but almost in a "free dead wolf" category.
Csargo for now is in my townleans.

*Cuth and Scoobs might take umbrage with this statement

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Originally Posted by Newyn

What I get from this is that if GH flips scum, we should snap lynch Logic because he's already planting the "GH only called me town this game cause he can't scum read me as scum two games in a row" defence.

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That's not a bad interpretation of that statement. Unfortunately, it is wrong.

Hi, I see a new burst of activity has begun just now this morning. I'll return in some hours, hopefully with that wagonomics, but I came here mainly because I wanted to tap @GH:

General, I feel like you've been ignoring some of my direct questions about other players. Didn't you straight-up tell me right before Visor opened signups that one of your scumtells is evasiveness when confronted about other players? :wacky:

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Originally Posted by Egix

Cos Monty said so?
Y'know, the same guy you said was being a revisionist irt that Chess Mafia game?

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Hey, what, I didn't say so, I said GH said so.

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Originally Posted by Insaner

Oh wait, the wolves are probably killing one of Choxorn and that tonight. Which only means that I will be there to tell you about how much of a wolf GH is!

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Also, there are definitely 3P. There wouldn't be mention 3P unless there were 3P. It's probably not the cool kind though, not like the Locust of Madness. Or was it Locust of Malice? Anyway, it's probably just a neutral survivor.

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I kinda hope there aren't any 3p lol. I have 0 clue how to hunt them.

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Don't hunt them. Why would you need to do that? What did third parties ever do to hurt you?

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Originally Posted by Zack Brannigan

That's fallacious, wolves bus for terrible reasons all the time

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:anxious:

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Originally Posted by Newyn

I'm hardly addressing you alone Zack - there are other people like Monty and Insaner who I think are probably town who are voting Cuth right now and pushing for him to get lynched.

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I think the POE spread doesn't evoke confidence. Too many nullish people, with overlap among the too many people laying low as the Big Names talk it up. Cuth's reaction to pressure today has been, how do you say, frozen? Here's what I expect for when I come back toward EOD: keep Cuth in the lead and if he's scum, there's going to be CFD activity. If not then it's more likely a case of "dead air, dead townie" and that's the point at which I will consider a yolo vote.

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Originally Posted by Logic

I find this "I need a live playerlist" then following up with a readslist suspicious. It does explain the large number of nulls, but you can always put out a readslist omitting the people you don't remember.
I'm currently giving Dya a scumlean for this, but it also feels like wolf!Dya would try harder than this.

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This sounds somewhat similar to the scumreading approach you took toward ladd yesterday, as seen here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by Logic

Ladd feels like his pushes are entirely too easy, and his defenses of things feel the wrong kind of dismissive.
Vote: Ladd

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Originally Posted by Logic

@ladd

You're going nowhere with your scum-reads, as if you are afraid to commit. However:

You've got some subtle shade on Pzelda that looks like you are reluctant to vote there.

You hedge on calling a post of mine good content wise, but wolfy in tone.

You are reluctant to to do anything with a probable Barto scum-read, instead deferring to others for meta.

You give a out of nowhere ">rand Fable/Barto W/W" and don't follow up.

I feel like you are taking pot shots to see what sticks rahter than actually solving.

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Originally Posted by Logic

Sometimes, I like to intentionally fail to answer questions and see if the person asking follows up and demands from me an answer. Ladd never did.
Now, I'm not giving him lock-scum, but I don't think this is a good look. Especially seeing how he responded to other posts I have made in the interim.

His push on me seems entirely fake, and that is why I'm not switching, barring some kind of CFD onto someone I think is a villager, where I will vote a counterwagon to said hypothetical villager.

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IIRC you didn't suss or scumread anyone else that day (except saying you werent willing to TR Cuth in #173, and you said you didn't get the suspicion of me but were willing to give a slight scum-lean in #321). Hmm... *imagine me scrunching my face in one direction as I murmur*

Your town reads were all glosses on the consensus players like insaner, merlin, empoof (but not Zack or GH).

Are - are you "taking pot shots rather than actually solving"? *grumpy face MU emote*

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Originally Posted by Logic

@Zack Brannigan
I also said so.
Short version: In Chess, Pizza laser focused on my scum tells. GH was my scum buddy that game, and HARD DEFENDED me like never have I been defended before or since. GH also knows my scum tells, and has correctly identified my in every game he has spectated or been a villager in before the end of D1. You can count on GH answering the opposite of my flip as a guaranteed wolf in GH (so far this is 2/2, lol)

The main reason I'm not giving GH a pass this game is that last game I was in with him (in Dya's words, "That OTHER Game" that just finished) he was a wolf, and I a villager, and he called me a wolf there, so he might be gun-shy about trying to do the same thing two games in a row.

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Very interesting. How would you compare your Chess-era meta with your current meta, including this game?

GH actually has not talked about you very much. In fact he does not appear to have mentioned you at all today. He did give you his top town read near EOD1.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Logic
Fable

Zack
Insaner

Monty
ladd

--- town line ---

Csargo
dya
Newyn
Pzelda
Cuth
Egix

Empoof
Choxorn

--- null/idk line ---

merl1n

El Barto

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And if it's true that a wrong read on you from GH indicates he is scum, and he town reads you (as of yesterday at least) - man, it sure would be crazy if...

Ask me about people, Monty. I'm just kind of tired in general and wanted a specifically low-volume game here. Don't really think that my MU meta should fully apply here.

@Montmorency
I'm not going to quote the post, but I feel like I do owe you an answer (for whatever "owe" is worth.)

My scumgame has not evolved much since chess in 2017. I have a single scum game under my belt where I survived past N3 (of, 9ish?) and most of those I was the D1 or D2 lynch. My only real talent as scum is not spewing my teammates.

As for Zack and GH reads from yesterday: I hadn't given Zack a townread like everyone else because he wasn't cleared town to me like he was to you. For GH, the paranoia is real, and I could easily see him doing the opposite of his last scum game and calling me town. If GH flips scum, I would not be surprised if a turbolynch were pointed in my direction soon after.

My scum lean on Dya is because I resumed reading the thread from where I left off yesterday morning, and those were the first few posts I saw. They don't sit well with me right now, which is why I called them out. If you have a bone to pick with my method, please give me more details, because "this is similar to how you suspected Ladd yesterday" doesn't cut it in my book. If you are suspecting me more than just murmuring, then vote me. I maintain that I do some of my best town-work while pressured.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Ask me about people, Monty. I'm just kind of tired in general and wanted a specifically low-volume game here. Don't really think that my MU meta should fully apply here.

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That is something I'd like expanded upon.

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Originally Posted by Logic

That is something I'd like expanded upon.

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The whole "as town I'm fully plugged in and engaged and have full opinions about everyone running through my head at all times and can't not turn my brain off for as long as I'm alive" bit.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Ask me about people, Monty. I'm just kind of tired in general and wanted a specifically low-volume game here. Don't really think that my MU meta should fully apply here.

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I don't think you've commented on Cuth meta, have you?

I won't press you on Choxorn.

What would you do in a F3 between you, me, and Choxorn?

Also:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Logic's town, consider this locked in.

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Just to mark for thoroughness, this was right before the leans list I quoted. Do you have anything else to say about Logic's reads on ladd in my spoiler?

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Empoof is gut mafia for me. Can't really explain it now. Kill me tonight if you don't want me to flesh this out please.

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A weird comment I asked you about.

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Originally Posted by Logic

As for Zack and GH reads from yesterday: I hadn't given Zack a townread like everyone else because he wasn't cleared town to me like he was to you.

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I don't lock him. I only lock insaner and maybe one other player. People throw around the word "lock" too lightly these days.

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For GH, the paranoia is real, and I could easily see him doing the opposite of his last scum game and calling me town. If GH flips scum, I would not be surprised if a turbolynch were pointed in my direction soon after.

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You understand why that would make someone nervous vis-a-vis a hypothetical scum-Logic?

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My scum lean on Dya is because I resumed reading the thread from where I left off yesterday morning, and those were the first few posts I saw. They don't sit well with me right now, which is why I called them out. If you have a bone to pick with my method, please give me more details, because "this is similar to how you suspected Ladd yesterday" doesn't cut it in my book. If you are suspecting me more than just murmuring, then vote me. I maintain that I do some of my best town-work while pressured.

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Is it wrong to say you are taking pot shots rather than solving? What i noticed about yesterday's reads is you only town-read consensus town, shaded me and Cuth, and voted Ladd with hard attacks. Abstractly, is this consistent with Logic scum meta on interactions with the thread? I feel like your engagement should have been more holistic as town.

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

A few thoughts:

I was a little surprised by how... seriously? my initial post was taken. Likely the effect of phase length stuff, but It was an early game post mostly getting a very specific thought out onto metaphorical paper, with a bit of a read attached. Not really intended as a huge talking point/reaction test, but, well, here we are. As things turned out, I've been watching what people say about it with curiosity.

I think Zack's reaction was very villagery; I think people who know my general posting style would tend to classify that as villagery just by virtue of fitting into the sort of free-flowing off-the-hip type of play I settle into more often as a villager (as wolf, I gravitate towards playing a more... classical game, I'd say?). That said, it's also a very small sample size and not accompanied by any of the signs that normally come with it, that being more of a general indicator valid across a larger subset of posts, so the backpedal makes complete sense-- I think he'd be more likely to pick one view and stick with it as a wolf unless he's a level higher than I think is likely in this case. /shrug

I think Monty has a very dim view of my play (rather understandable, given my showing in past games on the Org, but I don't especially care for the way he went about his comment-- was along the lines of "yeah that looks like the sort of analysis he'd make but normally he's defending himself at the same time". Which, alright, fair. But taken as an analysis post in the traditional sense my post is garbage. Several people had, as far as I could tell, the interpretation that I was implying something relating "safeness" and alignment/that there have to be x number of people in category for no reason/whatever else when there wasn't really much overarching structure other than basically two separate readslists containing everyone I'd personally formed an opinion, however significant or insignificant, on. There are people whose approach reads into how I see their play, but that's not the case with others. What Monty's post looks like is a "yes that is a bad analysis post but you know it's normal". I can't hold either opinion against him as such, but it seems a bit, oh, passive. It takes the image of the post and grafts it onto this tree of experience without any visible effort towards... weighing the post? It takes it seriously in the context of me making relatively nonsensical posts, and just sort of stops there. I'd have a lot less issue if it was more like "no that's not really a legit analysis post, but you know cuth". Don't think I'm really conveying my meaning very well, but.

Vote: Montmorency

Insaner. I've been holding back and watching, trying to figure out what exactly his approach is. Posts seemed very standard middle of the road affair (not that there's anything wrong with that) off the bat, but he mentioned enjoying playing with wolfy and that seemed to present a slightly different picture (again not to denigrate that, I just think those pools of people don't overlap entirely most of the time), and I didn't feel like I had a grasp on what the game was to him very well until more recently. My inclination here is villager, because he doesn't really seem like the sort of person to be a very confident wolf who takes the initiative in a setting like this with most iterations of the player list. Things like pushing hard on me w.r.t. Logic, saying I'm obviously caught. Falls into the pool of people taking my initial post seriously (traditionally? don't know if serious is the right word here), perhaps in this case more "seriously" than anyone else. Creates an inconsistency out of nowhere but also not nowhere from certain viewpoints, and pursues it. I think he's been going out of his way to interact with people and figure them out, and as far as I can tell it's more likely to be coming from a villager in most worlds. No prior experience though, so who knows.

I can see the appeal to merl1n's early stuff, but I think it's being given a pass too much on some fronts just because BeginnerForumMafia, which is lazy/easy to take advantage of.

I think Empoof would take advantage of the open gamestate more as a wolf, have the feeling that his holding back and being tentative is somewhat villagery.

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reading cuth's iso and this post stands out to me as being really normal in tone for cuth? but I'm not the best cuth reader

On Cuth

No, I haven't really commented on him much. He and I haven't really ever been in the thread at the same time and that's how I've usually been able to find him in the past. From what I've read of his posts in my catchups, I think he's a reasonable enough counterwagon to Egix today, but I'd mostly like to flip Egix at this point for selfish reasons (also I think that Egix has a higher chance of being scum anyway). He was in my POE at start of day and probably isn't going to be able to work himself out of it at any point during the game, so sure.

F3 with Monty and Choxorn

Kind of a dumb question to ask me on D2 considering that, presumably, there's going to be a lot more data that happens between now and then in said hypothetical. That said, assuming the three of us are locked in stasis or something between now and then, I probably vote Choxorn just because it means that his still being alive at that point almost certainly invalidates his claim. Why did you ask that question, specifically?

Logic's reads on ladd

Don't really have much to say here, I think ladd is town. Logic's allowed to be wrong.

My light gut read on Empoof

I had a light gut read on Empoof.

logic, how do you feel about cuth knowing that he's like...the only other person that really questioned the consensus read on zack?

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

On Cuth

No, I haven't really commented on him much. He and I haven't really ever been in the thread at the same time and that's how I've usually been able to find him in the past. From what I've read of his posts in my catchups, I think he's a reasonable enough counterwagon to Egix today, but I'd mostly like to flip Egix at this point for selfish reasons (also I think that Egix has a higher chance of being scum anyway). He was in my POE at start of day and probably isn't going to be able to work himself out of it at any point during the game, so sure.

f.

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Well I'd like to know what those are.
Don't be shy now, Hank :wink:

Vote:Logic

Sheep me bronanas

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

I like Newyn. I don't know if I'm comfortable calling him either alignment yet, though.

Pzelda's opening was rather bizarre and really really awkward if wolf, so villager points there. In particular the interaction with Zack.

I'm unsettled by wagon comp on Monty, think I'd rather hold off there for now, since I'm personally not confident on reading him generically speaking.

Was going to vote Logic, but now I sorta think him calling GH and Zack null, if lazy particularly in the first case, is mildly villagery.

Hum ho.

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I kind of dont like the read he gives pzelda here but I wonder if it's wolfy or not. Like I don't like it because we know that pzelda was a wolf but would cuth have been more likely to bus here than defend a bro? I just don't know

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

I do think Monty looks better, and I'm less comfortable with my company on that wagon

plus Barto is definitely pretty low-key

and I think it's a helpful lynch no matter what

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I do think this looks decent though

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

4 El Barto (Montmorency, Zack, Empoof, ladd)
3 Montmorency (El Barto, Pzelda, Cuthillius)

most recent vote tally at the time

monty was trending up relatively heavily, i've been reading zack soundly villager all game, and i also thought empoof was town-- my only real hesitation there was gh wolf-reading him pretty strongly

didn't and still don't really have much of a personal opinion on ladd's alignment

at this point i was on board with the idea of el barto because, like i said (more or less), he typically has a certain fire that was, as zack pointed out, definitely lacking

also i think there's been a similar lynch in the past with me on the wrong side? something like that

i remember this being a Thing before

but the other option was just a completely disengaged village barto who'd been about the most talked about person this game, and that wouldn't be a terrible lynch either if it came to that

also while i was initially reading pzelda as villagery because his posting was too awkward, other people who actually knew him were saying otherwise so that was trending down

but i didn't have as much reason to go there or anywhere else, barto was the strongest wolfread i had apart from private tinfoils which were coming in and out of style throughout the phase

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and more explanation of the vote - a little weirded out at what he said he said before because I've basically quoted it and he didn't give much on the el barto thing.

I'm still kind of null on cuth

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I don't lock him. I only lock insaner and maybe one other player. People throw around the word "lock" too lightly these days.

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Perhaps "people" have more confidence in their town reads than you do? If these people had consistently bad "lock-town" reads, I might be inclined to agree with you. But in my experience, if they've got a good record reading people they've locked, it's not my business to criticize their terminology. I'm not sure why you've picked this particular point to shade, as I don't understand a town or a scum motivation for it.

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You understand why that would make someone nervous vis-a-vis a hypothetical scum-Logic?

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Is that not what I said, in so many words?

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Is it wrong to say you are taking pot shots rather than solving? What i noticed about yesterday's reads is you only town-read consensus town, shaded me and Cuth, and voted Ladd with hard attacks. Abstractly, is this consistent with Logic scum meta on interactions with the thread? I feel like your engagement should have been more holistic as town.

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Only town reads were consensus: TRUE
Shaded you and Cuth: TRUE
Voted LAdd with hard attacks: TRUE
Consistent with Logic's scum meta: FALSE

C'mon Monty. You should know this. You saw how I was in chess and how hopelessly flawed my scumgame is.

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Originally Posted by dyachei

logic, how do you feel about cuth knowing that he's like...the only other person that really questioned the consensus read on zack?

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I feel like everyone should question Zack's towniness because he is a player I would fear the crap out of in a lategame scenario.
However, Cuth's suspicion feels weird. I am having trouble seeing his perspective on Zack as from a town POV.

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Originally Posted by Fable

Vote:Logic

Sheep me bronanas

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@Fable
Were I to ISO you, would I find anything, my friend?

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Originally Posted by Logic

I feel like everyone should question Zack's towniness because he is a player I would fear the crap out of in a lategame scenario.
However, Cuth's suspicion feels weird. I am having trouble seeing his perspective on Zack as from a town POV.

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but...you have the same perspective, don't you?

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Originally Posted by Logic

I feel like everyone should question Zack's towniness because he is a player I would fear the crap out of in a lategame scenario.
However, Cuth's suspicion feels weird. I am having trouble seeing his perspective on Zack as from a town POV.

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Zack dunked on Barto within the first, like, 20 minutes of the game. That's not how he treats partners.

Nobody should even bother with him until lylo.

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Originally Posted by dyachei

but...you have the same perspective, don't you?

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Saying "Zack went from null to probably town, but tinfoil fears are still a thing" is not the same as Cuth's "I dunno why you are all so diehard reading Zack as town" (both paraphrased)

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Don't hunt them. Why would you need to do that? What did third parties ever do to hurt you?

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Just thinking about the ways this game still can be lost. With both wolves being already caught and all that.