The greatest human tragedy of all time

i think the african slave trade was the greatest tragedy...is it true that more people died on those slave ships from either starvation or disease (and also because some of the ships sank) than in the holocaust??? I remember hearing that somewhere...

Oh, and i looked at that link about the Female Genital Mutilation~:eek: and i noticed that the type 1 (clitorodotomy) doesnt seem that inhumane at all... in fact, it seemed to be the exact parallel to male circumcision, and seems that it would infact be quite hygenic...because it is not the same as the horrible inhumane REMOVAL of the clitoris which is otherwise frikkin sickening.

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

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Organized unreligion :end:
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Yes, damn that Atheist lobby!

The (perversion of the) state.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

i think the african slave trade was the greatest tragedy...is it true that more people died on those slave ships from either starvation or disease (and also because some of the ships sank) than in the holocaust??? I remember hearing that somewhere...
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Do you know how the Africans got there in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Do you know how the Africans got there in the first place?

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Where? In Africa?

I think he means the ships.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

Oh, and i looked at that link about the Female Genital Mutilation~:eek: and i noticed that the type 1 (clitorodotomy) doesnt seem that inhumane at all... in fact, it seemed to be the exact parallel to male circumcision, and seems that it would infact be quite hygenic...because it is not the same as the horrible inhumane REMOVAL of the clitoris which is otherwise frikkin sickening.

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In my opinion,

1. The practice is barbaric, done by religious elders, not doctors, does not involve pain medication, and is totally unnecessary.

2. Hygiene is possible without removing body parts.

3. The practice is done on underage, unconsenting children against their will, for the purpose of removing sexual desire.

4. It's a horrible, traumatic event that is worse than rape.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

i think the african slave trade was the greatest tragedy...is it true that more people died on those slave ships from either starvation or disease (and also because some of the ships sank) than in the holocaust??? I remember hearing that somewhere...

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I wouldn't doubt it. However, I wouldn't necessarily count it as the Greatest human tragedy.

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Originally Posted by Conqueror

I think he means the ships.

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I think he means the ships, yes, but I miss his point... Does the fact that slaves were caught during internal african wars mean that's no more an human tragedy? Thinking that way, US civil war was not a tragedy either, since it was americans killing americans, no?

Well, probably SFTS's sunday Bourbon makes him feel like whipped when one talks about whites harming blacks. A thing that definitely never happened.

Back on the topic: slave trade's numbers are very hard to figure, since the slaves often originated from deep Africa. Coastal kingdoms, knowing they could make much profit from slaves, became specialised in raiding their more continental neighbours. So you have: people dead from the wars themselves, people dying during the trip to the seashore, those dying in the transit camps and those who died during the ocean's crossing. Only a small ratio survived long enough to be sold on the New World's markets. And that lasted four centuries.

Well if you think that what makes a tragedy tragic is the fact it was unecessary, then that makes the question a lot tougher (or easier?) to answer.

For example WWI was necessary. Not because we had to have mass murder through modern warfare, but because it would take humanity into a new age, the end colonialism and into the age of ideological extremism (making serious generalisations but you know what I mean). Which was in turn necessary to get where we are to day. Perhaps necessary is the wrong word, maybe inevitable, but even still would that not rule WWI out as a tragedy?

Same for WWII, it was inevitable fascism and Nazism would have their go at glory, to an extent also the USSR and its version of communism.

Maybe the only real tragedies are relatively minor things, on a global scale. Things like an old woman stepping in front of a bus, or maybe on a larger scale an epidemic such as the Black Death.

Or was the Black Death even inevitable? Trade routes between Europe and India through the middle-east were always going to mean exposure to new diseases and the more widespread coverage of those diseases across the planet.

Maybe even the death of 90% of the native Mexican population was inevitable. Mostly it was caused by disease, out of the Conquistadores control. Could it have been avioded (since Colombus didn't know it would happen at the time)? Is it then a tragedy?

:juggle2:

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Originally Posted by Tristuskhan

I think he means the ships, yes, but I miss his point... Does the fact that slaves were caught during internal african wars mean that's no more an human tragedy? Thinking that way, US civil war was not a tragedy either, since it was americans killing americans, no?

Well, probably SFTS's sunday Bourbon makes him feel like whipped when one talks about whites harming blacks. A thing that definitely never happened.

Back on the topic: slave trade's numbers are very hard to figure, since the slaves often originated from deep Africa. Coastal kingdoms, knowing they could make much profit from slaves, became specialised in raiding their more continental neighbours. So you have: people dead from the wars themselves, people dying during the trip to the seashore, those dying in the transit camps and those who died during the ocean's crossing. Only a small ratio survived long enough to be sold on the New World's markets. And that lasted four centuries.

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Every race at one point or another has had slaves or been enslaved.

Is it the greatest human tragedy? no far from it. The history of race and ethnic relations in America is much more deep and complex than many people make it out to be. Did blacks get the shaft? Hell yes nobody here is denying that but to sit here and say whites=evil is stupid because there really wasn't a white identity like there is today. One could make the case that an irish factory worker was on the same standing as a black slave except he had it worse because his religion was looked down upon to while religion was one thing blacks were allowed to have. The civil war in America only became about abolition when it became politically prudent to do so and if had been for Eli Whitney slavery would've ended 60 years earlier. The cotton gin saved an unprofitable business. Not to mention that .5% of the population owned more than 90% of slave. This idea that every man had slaves and ran them into the ground is not only laughable but I am stunned at the absolute ignorance that abounds here in a place where I thought people, before spouting off on a topic would do there research on a topic and put it within context of the time and its place in history. To much to ask I guess

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Did blacks get the shaft? Hell yes nobody here is denying that but to sit here and say whites=evil is stupid because there really wasn't a white identity like there is today.

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Are you paranoïd or do you really want someone to say that white=evil? As far as I read this thread, none did yet. And has someone stated that every white american had slaves? I don't think so...

New european emigrants until US Independance often had to sell themselves as slaves, I read somewhere. Darn' whites, enslaving whites. Worse than blacks enslaving blacks. Because they were white, and white=evil, everyone knows that.

Edit: joking, of course.

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Originally Posted by Tristuskhan

Are you paranoïd or do you really want someone to say that white=evil? As far as I read this thread, none did yet.

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I meant in the connotation of the slave trade. Its funny you mention servants as they really are what sparked how the Americans felt about race. Early on there were many blacks indians and poor whites than rich whites so the rich had to find a way to get the other whites over to there side and propagating a racial higher-achy was one way to do it. Zinn gives a very good explanation of it.

The rise of the Communists and Nazis are the greatest tragedies of all.

As I always like to say: Life Sucks, Then You Die.

There has never been a Communist state. I'm just going to throw it out there...

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Originally Posted by CountArach

There has never been a Communist state. I'm just going to throw it out there...

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Very true. Also I'm glad to see I'm not the only one in the world who's suspicious of family values. They just seem to become almost cultish with the rhetoric conservatives give on them.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

There has never been a Communist state. I'm just going to throw it out there...

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and as long as we are around there wont be one:smash:

Communism, Capitalism, Imperialism, Liberalism and Neoliberalism are the greatest human tragedies.

Caius, I challenge you to a debate on those points.

The gauntlet has been thrown down. Accept my challenge!

(friendly and respectful, of course. For fun!) :bow:

Sure. How this will be?

I believe since it's not appropriate to host the debate here, I would ask that we take this to the appropriate subforum.

Is the frontroom okay for something like this?

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Is the frontroom okay for something like this?

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Every single one of those is political, so probably not.

backroom then? How do I set up a debate in the backroom?

Dont I need permission just to get in>?

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

backroom then? How do I set up a debate in the backroom?

Dont I need permission just to get in>?

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Join the Backroom in groups in your UserCP. LEts start it here, then we ask the mods to move it to the apropiate Subfora.

Request sent. Shouldn't be too long before I can join.

One of the tests for knowing when a child has reached a mental age capable of moral thought is to ask them whether it's worse to break a large glass by accident or a small one on purpose. The idea being 'greatest' in this sense should not refer to the magnitude of the tragedy itself, but the intent of the guilty parties.

Therfore, I select the genocide in Rwanda. There have been worse tragedies before, and there will be much, much worse after. And there have been instances, such as the Shoah, where the people of the day knowingly allowed the horrors to progress. But at least with the Shoah, you could argue that the USA didn't exactly know what it could do to make the Nazis stop.

In Rwanda, we knew exactly what needed to be done, and could have done it at any time. The only reason the genoicde transpired was because black Africans weren't considered worthy enough to die for, so we let it unfold.

Of all the tragedies that has befallen man, this one I believe is the worst. Not greed, not fear. Apathy stayed our hands. :shame:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...27#post2027527

I have invited Caius to debate. Let's have some fun, my friend! :bow:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

There has never been a Communist state. I'm just going to throw it out there...

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That's because there can't be a communist state in the first place. The term is an oxymoron.

World War I. For a lot of reasons, including the birth of the Soviet Union, causing the rise of fascism and national socialism and more generally, WWII wich was in many ways a follow-up.

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

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Indeed, the current regime of the "nation state" of Turkey is a direct continuation of the Ittihad-Terakki dictatorship and not of the empire, which had all but nominally gone down in 1908 when they had first taken over the rule.

Your point is moot. :bow:
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Didn't know that. My knowledge of Turkish history is, I admit, pretty poor, and mostly comming from biased sources.

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Organized unreligion

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Is there such a thing as organized unreligion ? If you're talking about communism or socialism, or any other late 19th c. political/ideological movement that tried to get rid of religion (such as the French separation between the State and the Church), they're either
- not organized unreligion (communism and socialism weren't specifically thought as tool to fight religion, even though they fought religion in order to achieve their aim)
- not necessarily 'bad' (I'm glad the French governement decided to put and end to reactionary biggots' influence and plots in 1905).

I perfectly see where you're coming from, since religion-bashing is quite a trend nowadays, but even then, I have a hard time seeing what is organized unreligion.