Jag, liberal isn't having people sacked based on no evidence. This is about as "liberal" as Stalin.
Based on this you're hard left authoritarian.
Hell, even I'm more liberal than you!
~:smoking:
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Jag, liberal isn't having people sacked based on no evidence. This is about as "liberal" as Stalin.
Based on this you're hard left authoritarian.
Hell, even I'm more liberal than you!
~:smoking:
If you are so heavy-handed with a political party then you may as well ban it outright. There's not a huge difference between terrorising and persecuting based purely on association with a political party, and banning that party altogether. These people have not committed a crime, therefore how can you justify persecuting them like this (because that's what is being done to them)?Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
As Drone said, at least the government could show a litle discretion and simply keep an eye on those on the list - if they keep their jobs now then they know they will be being watched. Arguably, even this is unfair discrimination, although it may be common sense under the circumstances.
OK then, you let the people speak; however immediately afterwards they are driven out of their jobs and purged from the civil service for ever. That's true freedom isn't it. :dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
you showed nothing, is all you showed was that you prefer the rule of emotion to the rule of law.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
peadophiles are people whose fetish is against the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
the BNP is xenophobic, and yes it attracts some people who have broken the law with racially motivated intimidation or violence.
but. there. is. nothing. illegal. about. being xenophobic. in. britain.
if you break the law then hopefully you will end up being busted by the law.
the BNP is a legally constituted political party, that is all there is to it.
except your liberalism doesn't extend to being a member of a legally constituted British political party.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
this is as ridiculous as the argument over hunting with hounds:
a lords report confirmed that hunting with foxes is no more cruel than any other commonly used method, and yet the fox is still considered vermin but you can't kill it with hounds and men in red coats.
i point this out to many anti-hunting advocates, that the only rational argument is to remove foxes from the list of pests, and they say they don't care. as far as their concerned those rich toff's are getting what they deserve.
your argument is the same, it cares nothing for the rule of law, only emotion. if the BNP are acting in a manner that is illegal, then ban the party.
Well I wouldn't call them friends , scum that I have known over the years would be a more appropriate description , the sort of scum that ran with the headhunters ,f-troop and the 657 . Really nice fellas with a stunning selection of white power tatts . They may dress in suits now when they are campaigning for the BNP but they are still scum .Quote:
You have a friend or friends who are members
But anyway heres a simple question for those that are saying the police and prison service should not be allowed to say which legal political party its employees can belong to in case there is a possibility of their personal views conflicting with their job .
When Sinn Fein again became a legal political party in Britian back in '74 would you have objected if its members were working in the British policeforce or running the prisons ?
you are quite right, fringe politics exists only because the electorate perceive that mainstream parties care nothing for what really matters to people on the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
being a member of sinn fein is not illegal, acting illegally by passing on information to a proscribed terrorist organisation should be punished to the maximum extent of the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
I nearly mentioned them in my last post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Again, unless a clear link could be found to the IRA or its splinter-groups, there would be no reason to discriminate against them.
However, I would keep a watchful eye. Nothing official since that would be discrimination, but you need to use a bit of discretion.
this is why we have intelligence services. i'm sure the nuttier elements of the BNP are under watch from MI5, just as were sinn fein.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
i belive in most of there policies but still think the party members are corrupt, hell one of them is friends with a mafia leader in italy :hide:
And if this list had not got out we'd never know... just as we'll never know of all the supporters and voters that are not on that list (there are bound to be much more supporters and voters than there are members) and where they may be working.
Parties like this will always exist and draw their support from the ignorant. In the case of the BNP, they are not a serious fascist party and it is mainly tabloid rags that provide the fuel and create a niche for "immigrants are to blame for everything - thugs welcome" parties like the BNP. The government condemn them for exactly the same reason the police are doing - to look good.
Rebuttals?Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
:laugh4:
LOL@ using the Human Rights Act that they oppose.
It makes me think of a man who opposes wooden boats in favor of paper boats. When this boat starts to sink, he's frantically calling out for wooden boats.
You never did answer this question JAGQuote:
Originally Posted by drone
For some of our foriegn members who may not know, the BNP are in fact a racist party, panaroma (i think it was) managed to get footage of one the head guys saying all i want to do is :daisy: kill pakistanis, and then the leader tells him yes but we won't get elected by doing this....
If you want crazy extreme immigration views and british nationalism you can join UKIP, if your a racist you can join BNP, its pretty simple really....
The bnp are a racist organisation, this is widely known by everyone...
UKIP are not a racist organisation but have strong anti immigration policys and bang on about patriotism like bnp
If you have those political views you join UKIP, if you are a racist you can join BNP... quite simple really...
His beliefs aren't important - his actions are.
Its pretty simple really... you don't let people have power over other people who have a prejudece against certain groups, this position is inevitably abused to advance thier racist views, see stephen lawrence as just one example..
I assume you think I should be sacked as a Doctor based on many of my views I've shared here?
and why the hell would i ?
Can you people seriously not see the difference between firing people from positions of power because you simply don't like thier views... and firing someone from a position of power who is a member of an organisation that wants to kill minoritys!!
If you join an organisation calling for the deaths of minoritys then obviously i would have severe reservations about you being a doctor, let alone someone in such a position of power like a police officer...
But that will never happen, but a vote for the BNP might shift the middle somewhat more to the right that is why I would vote for them if I was english. Vote for Wilders for the same reason.
A vote for the bnp is no different from a vote for the nazi party back in the 30's
The BNP may have some moderate members who are little more than Tories with populist leanings,
Any tories who thought the tory's policys werent extreme enough on immigration and the eu went to ukip, politicians join ukip, racists join bnp....
Those dissenters must be crushed!!!!!!!
:rolleyes: you clearly know nothing of the bnp, they are clearly a racist party, it is not even paticularly hidden, go look up some documentaries on the bnp
We have a party called ukip here in the uk which has similar views, the bnp leader even went so far to call them the 2nd best party in britian, so obviously me jag and all the other thought police would want any ukip members struck from the police and the like... ?
NO!!!
because the bnp are racists, ukip are a political party i strongly disagree with...
there is no difference between allowing a KKK member to be a police officer and a bnp member...
You are denying people something because of there political leanings!
NO! go read up on the bnp, and then read up on ukip if you dont believe me, we are denying people something because of thier racist views!!
I realise jag's paedophile example was flawed, as these bnp members haven't actually commited a crime, so i have constructed a better one...
There is a political group that advocates sex with children
There is a member of that group teaching at a school
Do you send your child to that school ?
Hell no, unfortunatly a minority citizen doesn't even have a choice when it comes to police officers, if a racist one decides to penalise him he is fairly powerless to stop it...
While a paedophile is beyond doubt a sexual offender, we cannot similarly label members of the BNP as racist, or perhaps more specifically lawbreakers, in that we would accuse them of breaking the laws of the land in order to pursue their own beliefs.
Well we charge people for looking at sexual pictures of children, this because they support paedophilia by just visiting it, they have proven themselves to have views that are dangerous to vunerable members of society
The ones that just view pictures aren't actually going out and abucting children, but we still do no allow them to work in schools, swimming pools and other places with children.
It is similar with members of the bnp, by joining the bnp they aren't actually unfairly treating minoritys in thier job, they are simply stating they think its ok to treat minoritys unfairly (like the paedo states its ok to think of children sexually by viewing pictures)
Do you think that racist politicians should be removed from office?
No, but then im not sure i would want to wait all the way until our very own krystanacht (terrible spelling i know) but for simply being a racist politician then no...
InsaneApache is right. Who let all this riff-raff into the room?
I have been wondering the same thing... :tongue:
Originally Posted by JAG https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...s/viewpost.gif
Plus I am sick of people saying 'you are denying them because of their political opinions!!!!!', RUBBISH. THEY are denying themselves the opportunity to work in schools and police the streets becuase of their bigoted fascist views. I don't MAKE them become communists, THEY make themselves become Communists and THEY should take responsibility for their actions, not me.
agreed
STFS, seriously read up, the problem with bnp is racism not thier type of goverment, i would happily allow non racist facists in the police force, same as communists...
Infact im sure in the UK police officers are allowed to be members of UKIP, which basically invalidates the idea that this is the thought police, we are going after racists not right wingers!
But is joining a political party an illegal action?
Being a racist should stop you from potentially having power over minoritys in the same way having sexual thoughts about children should stop you from being around them, simply thinking of children sexually is not a crime but im sure everyone would agree that anyone with that view should be a teacher, the same way that someone who views minority as somehow lesser or deserving of punishment should not be in a position to put thier views into practice
Yes and teaching children to be proud of Britain and being scared of what unregulated immigration can do is so much
Like i said... i have no problems with members of UKIP, who espouse these views, or i have a disagreement with them but they are allowed (and should be) to hold whatever position they want, racists who want to kill minoritys are an entirely different matter...
Sacking those people will martyr them and gain more publicity and support for the BNP.
I think gain from getting rid of racist police more than outwieghs any small gain bnp would make from this
No more than you know all BNP members. I am merely inverting all your comments and you disregard me saying I don't know any or how they really act. Kind of telling really.
being simply a communist a facist or a socialist isn't inherently wrong in itself, i would certainly never support firing a police officer for those reasons... being a racist is an entirely different matter, do you in america allow KKK members to join the police force ?
Few are as resolutely as blinkered as Jag.
At least he can debate without resorting to petty insults which is much more than i can say for you or some others debating with jag, play the ball not the man!
and as a side note i often find those who like to throw around accusations like that are often most guilty of it themselves... ahem....
Just as no left winger can truely do anything that is bad, anything right wing is the worst sort of evil
Im sorry are we reading different topics... i thought it was only BNP members being fired... when did we start firing members of right wing partys like UKIP and the torys ?
People deserve to be sacked for being members of a registered political party?
Racists cannot be given powers in our name (police force ect.) and private companies should be allowed to fire employees who are racist, maybe they should get some kind of settlement but you cannot blame a private company for not wanting racists in thier organisation, i certaintly would not want any racists tainting my business...
To be fair, I don't remember Jag ever claiming ot be liberal. He appears to be the iron cudgel of the left.
If you really can't argue jag's point then don't post rather than simply trolling because you are annoyed he's right...
you showed nothing, is all you showed was that you prefer the rule of emotion to the rule of law.
:rolleyes: you simply don't read my posts do you...
You would not have atheists who are members of a group that just wants to kill christians in a position where they could have power over christians
It is no more emotional than wanting people who have sex with children kept away from children... i would infact call it the hieght of logic whereas crys of 'thought police' are just pure emotion, if you have an argument to make then make it, by simply throwing out one liners calling my arguments emotional its makes you seem as if you have no argument.
peadophiles are people whose fetish is against the law.
the BNP is xenophobic, and yes it attracts some people who have broken the law with racially motivated intimidation or violence.
but. there. is. nothing. illegal. about. being xenophobic. in. britain.
like. there. is. nothing. illegal. about. thinking. sexually. about. children. but. you. still. would. fire. a. teacher. with. sexual. views. of. children.
Edit: wow! this has got to be the longest post i have ever made...
You don't allow a registered and convicted sex offender to teach children, but even a suspected sex offender is still innocent until proven guilty. If you can prove someone is a sex offender, they shouldn't be allowed to teach. Likewise, if you can prove someone should not be in the police force because they have committed a crime of some sort, fine.
But when it comes down to it, Churchill said it all. The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists. Everyone gets due process - I don't care if that person is a Stalinist, Nazi, Liberal, or Conservative, it doesn't matter. In a liberal democracy you cannot discriminate based on political views in this manner.
You don't allow a registered and convicted sex offender to teach children, but even a suspected sex offender is still innocent until proven guilty. If you can prove someone is a sex offender, they shouldn't be allowed to teach. Likewise, if you can prove someone should not be in the police force because they have committed a crime of some sort, fine.
Im not talking of a suspected sex offender, im talking about someone who is a member of an organisation that supports sex with children....
Its simple, either your principle holds so strong that you would send a known sex with children supporter into a school or you agree that it is right to remove someone who has views that make them unsuitable for that position...
But when it comes down to it, Churchill said it all. The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists. Everyone gets due process - I don't care if that person is a Stalinist, Nazi, Liberal, or Conservative, it doesn't matter. In a liberal democracy you cannot discriminate based on political views in this manner.
Errm, noones going to jail, racists are being removed positions where they can penalise minoritys..
though i think rather than make a point you simply wanted to call me and jag facists... :rolleyes: intellectual inferiority is no excuse for trolling....
The idea that in a democratic society, no anti-democratic party should be allowed is silly to me. Surely, if the majority favored abolishing the democracy, that makes it the correct choice, since the society is run along democratic principles?
If it wasn't clear that these people were BNP members before the list was leaked, weren't they being poor operatives for the BNP? The goal of a political party being to spread their ideas and positions among the general populace, if no one knows you're a BNP member, you're not doing a very job, no? :clown:
Being a member of the BNP, a political party, does not mean you should be discriminated against for it. A member of the BNP has the same right to exercise their democratic will in a liberal democracy as you do - without being penalized for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
I wonder what the outcry would be if someone started refusing to hire Labour Party members?
Didn't say they were.Quote:
Errm, noones going to jail
How about we wait until they actually do penalize minorities before we remove them from the positions? :rolleyes:Quote:
racists are being removed positions where they can penalise minoritys..
This is simply dripping with irony.Quote:
intellectual inferiority is no excuse for trolling....
The idea that in a democratic society, no anti-democratic party should be allowed is silly to me. Surely, if the majority favored abolishing the democracy, that makes it the correct choice, since the society is run along democratic principles?
I would agree, it is infact not the BNP political party that is being targetted or banned, it is individual members who are in positions of power which it is unacceptable for racists to hold...
seriously having a bnp copper is no different from having one from the kkk, sure they may not discriminate against minoritys in thier work, but it is highly unlikely, and no more of an acceptable risk than allowing someone who is part of a group that advocates sex with children (but has comitted no crime) to become a teacher as far as im concerned
If it wasn't clear that these people were BNP members before the list was leaked, weren't they being poor operatives for the BNP? The goal of a political party being to spread their ideas and positions among the general populace, if no one knows you're a BNP member, you're not doing a very job, no?
Jag mentioned it earlier, members of the police force and the like have to sign contracts stating they are not a member of racist partys and the like... im sure they found plenty of creative ways to be 'good bnp members' whilst in the force...
It's been a long time since I read JAG in "full fig." :laugh4: JAG, you are a true believer in your cause, and your passion for your beliefs readily evident. :yes:
As to the list etc.:
Yes, acting on information from an internet list is chancy -- the internet is full of fabrications -- but it may be deemed legitimate cause to conduct a proper inquiry.
Assuming hiring contracts containing such "I am not a member of" clauses are themselves legal in the UK, than any corrections or police personnel who signed a hiring contract containing that clause and who are subsequently discovered to be members of such a group are subject to summary dismissal (and could, technically, be sued by their previous employers I believe [sorry, I'm a Virginian not a Brit, and though the VA code is based on English common law its not a 1-1 correspondence]).
In general, I believe membership in a political group should NOT be actionable, though it can serve as sufficient warrant for a different level of observation and supervision. The ACTIONS of any individual should be, and are, actionable. Here in the USA, I'm happy to know who's a member of the Aryan Nation or other such splinter groups. It lLets me know I can ignore them/not vote for them without wasting a lot of gray matter on it -- just like with the Greens.
Ultimately, I think that your political movement is pretty poorly set up if you have to hide your membership for fear of becoming a total social pariah -- that's not a good sign of "grass roots" support. However, if the BNP want to campaign on a platform of "put us in office and we'll end the whole shebang and set up a semi-totalitarian misoxenist paradise," and the UK voters are so insipid as to elect them, then enjoy the brave new world they enact. But come on, even USA voters aren't THAT ignorant -- your average brit isn't either.
Being a member of the BNP, a political party, does not mean you should be discriminated against for it.
And being a member SKA, a political party that supports sex with children, should not mean you get discriminated against for jobs working with kids.... or should it... ?
what do you think ?
A member of the BNP has the same right to exercise their democratic will in a liberal democracy as you do - without being penalized for it.
Im not advocating taking away thier right to vote or be a member of the bnp, just they are unable to be a bnp member and a copper in the same away a ska member cannot also be a teacher
How about we wait until they actually do penalize minorities before we remove them from the positions?
How about we wait until each individual member of ska has sex with kids before we ban them from teaching positions ?
They are part of a racist organisation, the police protect and serve, how can we trust the police to protect and serve us all when they hate certain groups in our society..
You can hold whatever political views you like, but when you support the theory that certain sections of the population are lesser beings you simply cannot be trusted to protect and serve
If you views non whites as lesser beings why would you...
make all the effort you can to find someone who killed a non white
risk your life to save that of a non white
consider the safety of a white and a non white person to be of eqaul importance
imo we simply cannot trust them to be so impartial when they view entire sections of the populations as somehow lower beings...
This is simply dripping with irony.
Resorting to name calling in a debate is a far surer sign of a lack of intellect than spelling mistakes...
though i do apologise... im just sick of the constant trolling in this thread... yours wasn't even so bad i just mentally added it onto all the other comments and directed my anger at you...
Here in the USA, I'm happy to know who's a member of the Aryan Nation or other such splinter groups. It lLets me know I can ignore them/not vote for them without wasting a lot of gray matter on it -- just like with the Greens.
What would your opinion be on aryan nation members in the police force... ?
I strongly disagree. I would argue that abolishing democracy is the one thing a democratically elected government cannot (or should not be able to) receive a mandate from the electorate to do. However it is almost 5am here so I will not attempt to expand on this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
However I was not aware that the BNP intend to abolish elections if elected. Though it would not surprise me if it were true, I was only aware that they were far-right racists. Could someone be so kind as to provide a link?
I would like to see how you can reject one of the outcomes of a democratic election and not the others.Quote:
I strongly disagree. I would argue that abolishing democracy is the one thing a democratically elected government cannot (or should not be able to) receive a mandate from the electorate to do. However it is almost 5am here so I will not attempt to expand on this point.
:shrug:
It wouldn't suprise me but as far as im aware its not one of thier stated policys
actually quite the opposite is a stated policy
We favour more democracy, not less, not just at national but at regional and local level
http://bnp.org.uk/2008/02/bnp-policies/
the bottom one is about democracy...
as you can see from thier views they have some policys that would come into mine and jag's line of thinking, transport being the best example, or enviroment, it is not thier political line of thought that the problem is with, it is thier racism...
"I've got it somewhere. Damn where did that list go..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
rubbish, fringe parties exists because the mainstream parties don't deal with problems felt by some sectors of society, like poor working class whites with few opportunities who find the communities flooded with immigrants, and the Gov't telling people their is no upper limit to a level of desirable immigration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
But really what's it to you why someone dislikes someone, and most of all what's it to the government. It's a party that works within the boundaries of the system you can't just 'mold' the system into a friendlist. Think of it, I hold a deep contempt for socialist and green party's, both are harmfull for our society, I really really dislike them. Racism is a petty emotion that leads to a lot of petty emotion with closet totalitarianists. That would be you and JAG you guys freak me out I simply can't believe how you can't see what road you are taking.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
^^Yes as I was saying, tabloid rags... etc... :book2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculu5