Pirates seize U.S. freighter, hold captain for ransom

The crew chose not to be victims and took advantage of the pirate's mistake, overconfidence and the false belief that fear would render them incapable of resistance. Sending one armed pirate with two unsecured/unfrisked crew members to the engine room was a big mistake. Oorah to the Chief & his mate for having the stones to disarm the pirate. Turned the tables on the rats and eventually led to short careers for 3 of them. Their choice. The FBI should make pirate number 4 a deal he can't refuse.

Brave men, the lot of them.:bow:

Looks like it was indeed snipers that took the pirates out. Maybe they read the backroom? :grin2:

Can we still blame Obama? If not for this, then for something else?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Can we still blame Obama? If not for this, then for something else?

---

Kenya is reasonably close to Somalia isn't it? Enough to drag Obama in somehow surely?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Can we still blame Obama? If not for this, then for something else?

---

I can admit when I'm wrong. I've been gnashing my teeth over his "vote present" attitude and refusing to discuss the matter. I'm very happy to be proven wrong on his approach on this matter, and I'm happy to see that the captain escaped unharmed.

I agree that something needs to be done to rectify the overall situation in Somalia, but that in no way excuses the behavior of the pirates themselves. I'm sorry over the loss of life, but only in the general sense.

good to hear that the sailors have been rescued!
:bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I've been gnashing my teeth over his "vote present" attitude and refusing to discuss the matter.

---

Well, if it makes you feel any better, reports are that Obama merely "approved" a plan presented by Gates and Special Forces command. You'll note that he didn't draw up the plan himself, and he didn't man any of the guns or shoot any of the pirates. Really, he's an ineffectual paper-pusher who wouldn't know John Rambo from John Holmes.

Between this and his half-bow to some Saudi princeling, I think it's still safe to yell "Obama!" like William Shatner in Wrath of Khan.

KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHN!

I'm pleased for the captain that this situation has been resolved, though saddened by the loss of life. I can't fathom why the Somalians didn't realise their number was up and surrender.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I can admit when I'm wrong. I've been gnashing my teeth over his "vote present" attitude and refusing to discuss the matter.

---

What is a "vote present" attitude, please?

I'm intrigued why you think the Commander in Chief should be discussing options in public. Wouldn't that rather compromise any operation, such as the one just completed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I agree that something needs to be done to rectify the overall situation in Somalia, but that in no way excuses the behavior of the pirates themselves. I'm sorry over the loss of life, but only in the general sense.

---

Well, you will be pleased to know that the substantive solution is pretty much a European one. I realise few ever read linked articles, but this is a good summary of the wickedness that many of the Somali pirates are reacting against. As with so many things, one man's pirate is another man's privateer - or dispossessed fisherman.

Did we expect starving Somalians to stand passively on their beaches, paddling in our toxic waste, and watch us snatch their fish to eat in restaurants in London and Paris and Rome? We won't act on those crimes – the only sane solution to this problem – but when some of the fishermen responded by disrupting the transit-corridor for 20 per cent of the world's oil supply, we swiftly send in the gunboats.

The story of the 2009 war on piracy was best summarised by another pirate, who lived and died in the fourth century BC. He was captured and brought to Alexander the Great, who demanded to know "what he meant by keeping possession of the sea." The pirate smiled, and responded: "What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you, who do it with a great fleet, are called emperor." Once again, our great imperial fleets sail – but who is the robber?

I wonder what Sir Francis Drake would have done?

That's easy, he would have attacked ships and looted towns in a rather bloody fashion. Only Spanish ones though, so that makes it ok. No need to be indiscriminate!

I think we are looking at this the wrong way.

Husar is right.
The Somalian people have very few means of actually maintaining an existence, and it is plunged in perpetual poverty.
Therefore the people must seek an alternative, international way to sustain their lives.
Imagine if you were an impoverished Somalian, and you could not find a job.
What would you do?

You are surrounded by a hostile and barbarous people and cannot seek assistance from the snotty 'civilised' world, you therefore must be self-dependent.
But the Somalian land is horrid for agriculture, so, being adaptable, you take to the sea.

We in the western world have so much wealth, and so much therefore to protect.
If we lose a bobble here and a bangle there because an african is starving, what harm do we really suffer, here at home?

Nothing at all.

No, indeed, if we are feeding them through this means, by allowing for some fodder to pass by that way and fall prey, indeed, we are doing no less good for Africa than the Red Cross and the U.N.

See, there are people who keep pet snakes, and they feed their snake young rats.

But there are people who keep pet rats too, and they would not feed their pet to a snake.

So you see, we need to stop being rat lovers, and start feeding them to the snake.

Pirates are people too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glenn

I think we are looking at this the wrong way.

Husar is right.
The Somalian people have very few means of actually maintaining an existence, and it is plunged in perpetual poverty.
Therefore the people must seek an alternative, international way to sustain their lives.
Imagine if you were an impoverished Somalian, and you could not find a job.
What would you do?

You are surrounded by a hostile and barbarous people and cannot seek assistance from the snotty 'civilised' world, you therefore must be self-dependent.
But the Somalian land is horrid for agriculture, so, being adaptable, you take to the sea.

We in the western world have so much wealth, and so much therefore to protect.
If we lose a bobble here and a bangle there because an african is starving, what harm do we really suffer, here at home?

Nothing at all.

No, indeed, if we are feeding them through this means, by allowing for some fodder to pass by that way and fall prey, indeed, we are doing no less good for Africa than the Red Cross and the U.N.

See, there are people who keep pet snakes, and they feed their snake young rats.

But there are people who keep pet rats too, and they would not feed their pet to a snake.

So you see, we need to stop being rat lovers, and start feeding them to the snake.

Pirates are people too.

---

Thats all well and good but we should still shoot them.

There are deadlines to maintain.

Assigning everything the right to life clearly isn't what I do. My actions on a daily basis kill billions of organisms which I assign a less worthy form of life than those I save. without assigning myself a snake or rat lover I am definitely a pirate despiser.

International waters are to what? 12 miles. So, unless Somalia is demanding ownership of waters up to and including the Indian ocean this is a threadbare justification.

What percentage of ships were captured in these waters?

How many were fishing boats? Possibly they thought the cargo boats and oil tankers were very advanced fishing boats...

I would also imagine that if Somalia had a functioning government, everyone was fed and fair, there'd still be pirates as what other job pays this well (assuming that the government turned a blind eye to the pirates).

So, catch 'em and shoot 'em. And if you're American , resist the urge to scalp them for bounty payments.

~:smoking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

I realise few ever read linked articles, but this is a good summary of the wickedness that many of the Somali pirates are reacting against.

---

When did this meme take over? First Tribes uses it as a justification for never sourcing his arguments, and now you're saying it?

I love to read the articles. I post links to source constantly. I'm always amazed at how many Orgahs not only follow the links but find things in the articles that I missed.

Let's quash this thought before it goes completely viral. It is worthwhile to post sources and links, and people do read them. Sure, some don't, but that's hardly a reason to strip our debates of reference and resource.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHN!

---

Yes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Well, you will be pleased to know that the substantive solution is pretty much a European one. I realise few ever read linked articles, but this is a good summary of the wickedness that many of the Somali pirates are reacting against. As with so many things, one man's pirate is another man's privateer - or dispossessed fisherman.

---

Oh please. That's a good PR line that people like Hari will swallow because then they can bash the UK and not the Somali pirates.

The pirates are clearly not doing this as a reaction against alleged toxic waste dumping or overfishing, but for one reason; money. The evidence is clear in what ships the pirates are attacking; are they just fishing vessels? No, it's what gets them money.

CR

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

When did this meme take over? First Tribes uses it as a justification for never sourcing his arguments, and now you're saying it?

---

Maybe I'm just being over sensitive, but there's been several topics recently that went straight off the rails and it was evident that no-one bothered to read the article provided, just threw out their standard line.

That's always been the Backroom, but it seemed particularly prevalent of late. Apologies if it seemed like I was establishing a meme - I agree with your post as a whole.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Relaxes, believing that no-one has spotted the reality of my alt account...:sweatdrop:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Oh please. That's a good PR line that people like Hari will swallow because then they can bash the UK and not the Somali pirates.

---

Oh good. Now that we know the whole thing is merely the imagination of a writer you don't like, the problem can go back to being nicely black and white.

Pirate Hussein vows revenge against French and Americans

Kind of expected, but I imagine that if they do start injuring/killing people rather than just kidnapping them (which is bad enough), there is likely to be an escalation of force on both sides.

That article is amusing, in a way. First, we dump nuclear waste off the coast of Somalia, and people miles away begin to get sick and die at alarming rates. Next, we start overfishing in the same places. We seem to be alright.

Therefore, one of the above seems to be a lie...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

That article is amusing, in a way. First, we dump nuclear waste off the coast of Somalia, and people miles away begin to get sick and die at alarming rates. Next, we start overfishing in the same places. We seem to be alright.

Therefore, one of the above seems to be a lie...

---

OK, forget it. The whole thing is just about bad men with eye patches. Eradicate all those with the sign of Cain and we're fixed.

Quote:

---

The pirates are clearly not doing this as a reaction against alleged toxic waste dumping

---

"alledged" ???? did you read the link and follow the links off it ?
You sound just like those people on the comments section talking about Hari making stuff up because they don't like what he said as it doesn't agree with their views and can't be arsed to find out if their views are actually wrong:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Quote:

---

When did this meme take over? First Tribes uses it as a justification for never sourcing his arguments, and now you're saying it?

---

See above :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

It is worthwhile to post sources and links,

---

No it isn't , it is worthwhile when you have someone stridently sticking to a position when you know they are not closed minded but just misinformed . For example if you had a disagreement with someone like Redleg and wanted to show a UN document or a theological interpretation of scripture by a respected Rabbi then you would provide a nice link as a last resort

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

OK, forget it. The whole thing is just about bad men with eye patches. Eradicate all those with the sign of Cain and we're fixed.

---

They're poor, we know. That might explain it, but it does not excuse it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

No it isn't , it is worthwhile when you have someone stridently sticking to a position when you know they are not closed minded but just misinformed .

---

Two errors in this position:

1. You are assuming that you can accurately identify who is "closed minded" every time. This imputes omniscience on your part, and ignores your own capacity to make mistakes. Always a bad idea.
2. You are ignoring the fact that other people read the threads. So even if an ideologue ignores your sources, by linking to good, solid information you may give other Orgahs a basis on which to come to their own (perhaps less ideologically blinded) conclusions.

In fact, the refusal to post links and sources, even when you have them easily available, shows something bordering on contempt for your fellow Orgahs. Bad form, old chap.

Quote:

---

That might explain it, but it does not excuse it.

---

There lies the problem , some people see an explaination as an excuse , others see it as an explaination for consideration in forming views .
Its kinda like people pointing out the rubbbish that was touted about Iraq getting labeled as Saddam apologists who wanted to excuse a dictator when all they was saying is that some people are talking rubbish without looking at the subject

How do the Somalis know this fishing is taking place? What technology do they have to monitor the waters 12 miles out to sea? American warships seem to be having difficulties.

They have very good eyesight. They can see ships 12 miles off the coast. Astonishing... :inquisitive:
If you're going to dump toxic materials, why bother going within 12 miles of the coast, when you can just as easily dump them anywhere - preferably in a deeper chasm.

A sieve holds more water. Even assuming utter avarice these charges of dumping make no sense; charges of fish theft are more plausible but only just.

And as Evil_Maniac From Mars points out we like our fish as far as possible free of heavy metals - especially when they're radioactive.

~:smoking:

Quote:

---

You are assuming that you can accurately identify who is "closed minded" every time. This imputes omniscience on your part, and ignores your own capacity to make mistakes. Always a bad idea.

---

Not in the slightest , for starters in the main the strident repetition of factual errors when an opposing view has been put forward is generally a good indication , secondly posting a link on the open forum is not the only method of supplying linked information for a poster to view .
Besides which I often name easily identifiable and simply found sources so people can look for themselves (though I did get a ban for doing that once}

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Not in the slightest , for starters in the main the strident repetition of factual errors when an opposing view has been put forward is generally a good indication , secondly posting a link on the open forum is not the only method of supplying linked information for a poster to view .

---

This is also presuming you are always right, or that there is only one version of the facts and that you possess it. On the other hand, I admit that this is a vice of every internet debater on the planet...

Quote:

---

How do the Somalis know this fishing is taking place? What technology do they have to monitor the waters 12 miles out to sea? American warships seem to be having difficulties.

---

Keep up to date Rory , one complaint the Naval forces are using is that the pirates are using all the latest maritime technology so they not only know what all the vessels in the area are , what they are doing , what they are carrying and where they are going , but they also know where all the warships are and so avoiding them .
Its a problem the Navy has , all the pirtes have to do is look out for what is handy for them , while the navies have to watch every little thing that floats in case one little thing comes in handy for them .
BTW 12 miles :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Quote:

---

And as Evil_Maniac From Mars points out we like our fish as far as possible free of heavy metals - especially when they're radioactive.

---

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Come off it , your fishmonger could be serving you scallops from dounreay and you would be none the wiser

Quote:

---

This is also presuming you are always right, or that there is only one version of the facts and that you possess it.

---

Fair enough , I could for example link to amazing non existant legislation eh Mars:oops:

And then even after people posted other links that proved pretty comprehensively the legislation as non existant and for good measure post all the relevant actual existing legislation , I could still maintain that something was against the law when there was no law against it .:yes:

12 miles is international waters. I've not found any source that states otherwise.

Unless illegal fishing trawlers are broadcasting that they're illegally fishing I fail to see how the technology helps the Somalis.

"Handy for them"? They're stopping the fishing, right?

With all the tech they've got they must be pretty annoyed at the number of other ships they keep accidentally taking, and their GPS is way off if they're trying to protect their coastline...

EDIT: Sorry, rory, that map was hotlinked. Please host it yourself. BG

If you look closely if even helpfully shows where the 12 nautical mile line is...

There is such a concept as health and safety - of which this country has plenty. And even if the safety of the individuals isn't important, if a company got caught selling food with vastly increased levels of toxins the bad PR would cripple it.

~:smoking: