Low Gaul morale

Personally I have always found leading Gaulic armies in EB to be a somewhat difficult task, and I think that EB has represented reality quite well, their line troops tend to be high damage-low morale mixtures (Northern and Southern Gaulic swordsmen especially) and they tend to excel when led by a good leader but are unreliable under the command of a green general. On the other hand their higher order troops, the solduros and gaesatae are extremely reliable and usually don’t rout unless the commander has horrible leadership skills.

My usual strategy for dealing with this handicap when using green generals against the Sweboz is to insure that there are plenty of slingers around, weaken their line as it approaches and then once they reach javelin range have all of your units open fire simultaneously, the sheer amount of casualties that it causes is staggering and the morale effect is immense, after such an attack a Sweboz battle line tends to rout just as quickly as a Gaulic one (the same tactic works wonders against other Gauls). Later in the game you’ll want to keep a few units of Gaesatae around just to scare your enemies senseless and to provide unparalleled infantry flanking forces, and I usually use Solduros in the center of the line as they are extremely hard to break, although sometimes I use them to insure that a flank holds though the casualties are noticeably higher. The other nifty trick is to hook your light skirmish cavalry around the enemy’s flank and sit behind them throwing javelins into their backs.

Similar tactics are effective against the Romans, though their armour is tougher so the javelins are less effective, your best chance against the Romans is to always have cavalry superiority and plenty of Gaesatae and if your general has high morale bonuses you can defeat just about anyone.

(sorry for any misspellings I’m writing this at 2AM)

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Originally Posted by Aodhan

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Personally I have always found leading Gaulic armies in EB to be a somewhat difficult task, and I think that EB has represented reality quite well, their line troops tend to be high damage-low morale mixtures (Northern and Southern Gaulic swordsmen especially) and they tend to excel when led by a good leader but are unreliable under the command of a green general. On the other hand their higher order troops, the solduros and gaesatae are extremely reliable and usually don’t rout unless the commander has horrible leadership skills.

My usual strategy for dealing with this handicap when using green generals against the Sweboz is to insure that there are plenty of slingers around, weaken their line as it approaches and then once they reach javelin range have all of your units open fire simultaneously, the sheer amount of casualties that it causes is staggering and the morale effect is immense, after such an attack a Sweboz battle line tends to rout just as quickly as a Gaulic one (the same tactic works wonders against other Gauls). Later in the game you’ll want to keep a few units of Gaesatae around just to scare your enemies senseless and to provide unparalleled infantry flanking forces, and I usually use Solduros in the center of the line as they are extremely hard to break, although sometimes I use them to insure that a flank holds though the casualties are noticeably higher. The other nifty trick is to hook your light skirmish cavalry around the enemy’s flank and sit behind them throwing javelins into their backs.

Similar tactics are effective against the Romans, though their armour is tougher so the javelins are less effective, your best chance against the Romans is to always have cavalry superiority and plenty of Gaesatae and if your general has high morale bonuses you can defeat just about anyone.

(sorry for any misspellings I’m writing this at 2AM)

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A sound approach.
Against the Romans I use more Teceitos and Tekastos, if available. Sadly the Gauls don't have a good access to AP infantry units, especially after the Soldiers reform where they lose Teceitos. In this regard, the Swêboz are actually better, since they have cheap and effective clubmen and, on top of that, easier (and more permanent) access to Teceitos than the Gauls themselves.

On my Aedui game, I just used a bunch of slingers and swordsmen against the Romans. Once I got farther down into Italy, I was able to get some good Samnite mercenaries, and some heavier cavalry. The Romans weren't really that hard. If I had waited longer until they got some reforms, I bet they would have been really tough though.

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

On my Aedui game, I just used a bunch of slingers and swordsmen against the Romans. Once I got farther down into Italy, I was able to get some good Samnite mercenaries, and some heavier cavalry. The Romans weren't really that hard. If I had waited longer until they got some reforms, I bet they would have been really tough though.

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Yeah my invasion of Italy force is typically my FM, 7-9 Northern Gallic Swordsmen all with weapon upgrades, 4 slingers, and 1 or 2 curepos mercs. Northerns tend to take pretty heavy casualties vs. triarii and especially against pedites extraordinarii. So Southern Gallic Swordsmen reinforcements from Mediolanum play an increasing role in the line, and often comprise the majority of the line by the time I sack Roma, typically sometime between 258 and 254.

Polybian heavy infantry are good but if you postpone the Roman invasion and focus on Gaul, then you can deport populations to inner Gaul from conquered cities, the key is to get huge cities in central Gaul and trigger Time of Soldiers so that you can levy Neitos and/or Arjos. Gaulic Neitos are tough as hell, and in a solid line they are a match for anything the game has to offer. I have done custom battles, neitos properly managed are a match for just about anything including gaesatae, bastarnae etc. Gather a top quality stack with a center line of Neitos or Arjos and go after Diazenis and the other eleutheroi elites in central Europe, hard battle if you want a real challenge;)

I just finished all of Time of Soldiers MICs, and right when I did that, the Sweboz decided to attack. So basically, now I have a full stack of all my cool new units ready to conquer Germania. I already had one giant battle against the Sweboz, and I beat the crap out of them, which is to be expected, my army is pretty well overpowered with the best Aedui troops.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/...3-45-22-04.jpg

See what I mean? Totally overpowered. I spent like 170k building up my armies. That army in the north heading toward Bagacos is a bunch of Belgic spearmen, swordsmen and cavalry. I also have a bunch of backup garrisons ready to resupply my main army if I ever lose too many guys, which doesn't seem likely. The only trouble I've had so far was against the Sweboz bodyguards, but a few cavalry charges on the flank took care of them pretty easily.

To kind of almost stay on topic, the later Gaul spearmen, the Gaelaiche, they're pretty decent, much better than the early spearmen. I guess Gaul morale isn't really a problem once you get going.

I am certainly glad to see teh Gauls in good order, but for players who mirror historic compositions, the Celts should only have around 6 units with chainmail, the rest would be 'normal' units.

You could have something like this:

1 Brihentin
1Argos
2 Neitos
1 Solduros
1 Mori Gaesum

The rest would be your Bataroeas, Botraos, Lugoae, slingers, Luece epos, axemen, etc... This would be the typical way I play with my own house rules, and the 20-30% mark is what the most historians agree upon. Some even less than this. Getting near accurate chainmail amounts for a Celtic army would be at the 20-30% mark, a bit less for a Briton army, and even less with a Sweboz army. Just an idea for some players. EB much funner this way and more rewarding after a victory.

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

I just finished all of Time of Soldiers MICs, and right when I did that, the Sweboz decided to attack. So basically, now I have a full stack of all my cool new units ready to conquer Germania. I already had one giant battle against the Sweboz, and I beat the crap out of them, which is to be expected, my army is pretty well overpowered with the best Aedui troops.

See what I mean? Totally overpowered. I spent like 170k building up my armies. That army in the north heading toward Bagacos is a bunch of Belgic spearmen, swordsmen and cavalry. I also have a bunch of backup garrisons ready to resupply my main army if I ever lose too many guys, which doesn't seem likely. The only trouble I've had so far was against the Sweboz bodyguards, but a few cavalry charges on the flank took care of them pretty easily.

To kind of almost stay on topic, the later Gaul spearmen, the Gaelaiche, they're pretty decent, much better than the early spearmen. I guess Gaul morale isn't really a problem once you get going.

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Yeah that army should have a pretty smooth ride into Swebotraust as long as your FM has decent healing. That's as strong as it gets really, except that you don't have many chevrons. The only way you could improve much would be to levy with Stone temples of Teutatis and fields of games for more chevrons and maybe hire some Cretans in Italy. My typical royal army has the king or crown prince, 3 brihentin/leuke epos, 4 slingers, 7 neitos/Arjos, 4 helvetians/bataroas, 1 gaesatae or druid. Gaesatae are IMO so overpowered that I don't recruit them unless I have a Stone temple of Teutatis/Taranis in the city. FWIW in my experience the Carnute druid chant creates both positive morale for your own troops and causes fear in nearby opposing troops, and that fear stacks with gaesatae fear. So when both fears are in effect it is pretty easy to start a chainroute.

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Originally Posted by Power2the1

I am certainly glad to see teh Gauls in good order, but for players who mirror historic compositions, the Celts should only have around 6 units with chainmail, the rest would be 'normal' units.


The rest would be your Bataroeas, Botraos, Lugoae, slingers, Luece epos, axemen, etc... This would be the typical way I play with my own house rules, and the 20-30% mark is what the most historians agree upon. Some even less than this. Getting near accurate chainmail amounts for a Celtic army would be at the 20-30% mark, a bit less for a Briton army, and even less with a Sweboz army. Just an idea for some players. EB much funner this way and more rewarding after a victory.

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Interesting restrictions, in that case the Gauls are still in good shape since Leuke epos outclass brihentin in some respects, and Northern Gallic Swordsmen are very cost effective with proper chevron/weapon enhancement, and Belgae swords are among the best swordsmen in the game. I won't even mention Gaesatae the only infantry that can charge straight into elephants and cut them down.

The Gaesatae are going to be powerful professional that they were in real life, bu charging into elephants and coming out on top is going to cease. They are overpowered in EB1, and while the stats in the EB2 build are provisional, the Gaesatae will not be able to take down whole armies or anything. My house rules are not to have more than 4 Gaesatae in any 1 army. Trust, its tempting to make more or an all Gaesatae army, but the victories you'd win with them would be hollow I would imagine.

Going back to the armor rates, the 15-20% for the Gauls would be maximum when you first start playing since warrior burials during this time, in real life, do not feature the same kind of iron amounts that would be found later. Time of Bondsmen and Soldiers is when you could ramp up the chainmail wearing units to 20-30% or so, and this is an estimate on the iron in warrior burials in those times. So as the reforms progress, afford yourself 1-2 more armored units than before, but no more than 6 or possibly 7, and you'll be playing close to how thing would have been. Also, in the last two reforms, think about having a bit more cavalry than you would have usually used before. The nobility and greater warriors would have increasingly turned to mounted combat after leaving the chariot. So with this in mind, Brihentin should increasingly be most of your chanimail units in the last two eras, faithfully representing the armored nobility and the 'kinghts', as Caesar called them. Again, just some tips for the player wishing to try the Gaulish hardcore history route.

Britons should have perhaps the second highest amount of chainmail wearers, but their nobles are chariot users, so they can substitute or be considered a 'chainmail wearing unit'. Perhaps in their 3 reforms, you could go with 2, 3, then 4, not including your chariots, but you should not have many of them either.

The Sweboz should have very little. Their B.C. time period was not marked with major advances in metalworking and production. I am thinking 2, maybe 3 units tops, even in the last reform as well.

This is how I play at least, and this should be rather close to historical occurrences in the military of the day that one would face.

Solduros and Gaesatae are both very overpowered. I had three units of Solduros take an entire town of Sweboz, and I only lost like 80 guys. As for the Gaesatae, if I put them up front in a battle and have them charge, most things will rout before I can get my other units to charge. It's good to hear that you're changing stuff around for EB II.

Nah, Mistophoroi Toxotai Kretikoi just need to focus fire on Gaesatae's thingies, and they'll be severely depleted, and a simple Hippeis charges can shatter them into submission (but when I using their fellow celts or sweboz, I always play gaesatae vs gaesatae, or gaesatae showered with Jugunthiz javelins...

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Originally Posted by Power2the1

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Britons should have perhaps the second highest amount of chainmail wearers, but their nobles are chariot users, so they can substitute or be considered a 'chainmail wearing unit'. Perhaps in their 3 reforms, you could go with 2, 3, then 4, not including your chariots, but you should not have many of them either.

The Sweboz should have very little. Their B.C. time period was not marked with major advances in metalworking and production. I am thinking 2, maybe 3 units tops, even in the last reform as well.

This is how I play at least, and this should be rather close to historical occurrences in the military of the day that one would face.

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Thank you, that is some very useful information for all those factions. I had hoped for something like this.

This probably means for Swêboz after the latest reform: one FM, one unit noble cavalry, one unit heavy infantry?
What about pikemen units? And BTW, are they gonna make it to EB II?

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

Solduros and Gaesatae are both very overpowered. I had three units of Solduros take an entire town of Sweboz, and I only lost like 80 guys. As for the Gaesatae, if I put them up front in a battle and have them charge, most things will rout before I can get my other units to charge. It's good to hear that you're changing stuff around for EB II.

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Solduros are one of the best units in Western Europe, which I guess isn't far from the historical truth. And it's not that difficult to counter them, if you use axemen or clubmen. The AI is dumb so it's no wonder you had so few losses.

Yeah, overpowered when fighting the AI is what I meant.

On a slightly unrelated note, I had one unit of Gaesatae rout during a battle with the Sweboz, and it was just fighting some random levy spearmen unit. It was very odd. The Gaesatae wasn't even that depleted, it still had around 100 guys in it.

On the other hand if a barbarian faction conquers and rules an ahistorically large empire, like the Sweboz conquering and ruling all Germania and Gaul at the same time, or the Gauls conquering and ruling all Gaul and Italy and Gallicizing the majority of Italy, and maybe adding Britain to the list, then one is controlling much greater economic resources than any historical Gallic/Swebian king ever did, and it is appropriate at that point to not limit oneself to historical examples since those historical kings controlled much weaker economies. The factional goals of non-Roman factions are to some extent ahistorical anyhow, especially if one includes "house rules" to vanquish the SPQR outright like I generally have.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Thank you, that is some very useful information for all those factions. I had hoped for something like this.

This probably means for Swêboz after the latest reform: one FM, one unit noble cavalry, one unit heavy infantry?
What about pikemen units? And BTW, are they gonna make it to EB II?



Solduros are one of the best units in Western Europe, which I guess isn't far from the historical truth. And it's not that difficult to counter them, if you use axemen or clubmen. The AI is dumb so it's no wonder you had so few losses.

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No problem, happy to inform y'all on the overall plan for certain things. With your guess, that sounds about right for the Sweboz chainmailed units. The elite/professional Speutagardaz pikemen I personally keep to 5 units per army keeping in mind that the elites/professionals are not a large segments with an Iron Age European army, and never was really. The Sweboz and Celts would raid, of course, with their better troops, but in large armies, consisting of levies for campaigns (full stacks in the RTW sense), the levies and semi or non professional troops would certain outnumber the professionals and elites by about 3-to-1 and more. With a 20 unit limit in all the TW games, you have to work around that and try to give a accurate representation of the armies back then.

I am not apart of the Sweboz team, but I would say that from what I have seen there will be plenty of pikemen and spearmen to go around, especially as the javelin/spear armed warrior was much more common than those with swords.

As for the Solduros they will be restricted to a much smaller area in EB2, but retain their professional status as a force to be reckoned with.

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Originally Posted by Geticus

On the other hand if a barbarian faction conquers and rules an ahistorically large empire, like the Sweboz conquering and ruling all Germania and Gaul at the same time, or the Gauls conquering and ruling all Gaul and Italy and Gallicizing the majority of Italy, and maybe adding Britain to the list, then one is controlling much greater economic resources than any historical Gallic/Swebian king ever did, and it is appropriate at that point to not limit oneself to historical examples since those historical kings controlled much weaker economies.

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True, however, the power would still have been helmd in the hands of the few, as with the Celts in the Late La Tene period. Large swaths of terrritory doesn't automatically equate with an all elite force. The Seleucids, for example, had a grat amount of territory, yet, the Royal Guard was a minority (20,000 iirc) when it came to facing large battles. Here we see settler units, archers, slingers, other levies, easterners, etc...such as what was found at Magnesia where the Royal Guard was much less than half of the total force assembled. Same goes for the Ptolemies calling up the settler phalanx (kleruchoi and katoikoi) only during certain times of emergencies. The great expense of maintaining a standing army was just vast, and most cultures, especially in Northern Europe, could not afford this year long. When a great danger loomed, then a levy was imposed upon the region, when that danger passed, the levies went back home and would not be called until a great need had for them had presented itself.