I have been thinking about this tonight. The question you must ask yourself PVC, is whether you blame the problems of the world on those more powerful than yourself, or less powerful.
That is the difference between left and right.
Printable View
I have been thinking about this tonight. The question you must ask yourself PVC, is whether you blame the problems of the world on those more powerful than yourself, or less powerful.
That is the difference between left and right.
I wouldn't say that, I explained in my last post the inadequacies of the terms left/right. I am coming to think that they do more harm than good. They're not even generalisations, they conflate completely different concepts. How on earth can you place classic free-market capitalism alongside fascism and the far-right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
That's a Marxist, Class-Warfare, way of looking at things. I consider that individuals are responsible for themselves and society is responsible for itself collectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
I see no value in your "blame game".
that question simply is not relevant to me, because i have no intention of going through my life being all bitter and twisted about other peoples privilege. it is my job to make a good fist of my life, and it is my duty to assist others where I deem i am able.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
PVC exposing collectivism? Intriguing. I completely agree with your consideration. But do you not think those who are in control of the politics and economics of society are far more able to shape that society for everyone's benefit or their own?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
It is nothing to do with bitterness, and everything to do identifying who can effect positive change in society through their decisions, and who can largely just be swept along by those decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
If "Chavs" or "Scallies" are viewed with contempt, I don't think you can afford to be so sure it is so because of state intervention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
You may think the state creates/permits their joblessness right? I might think that the system creates the joblessness, the state's interevention mitigates the misery and tries to correct the innequality from being transmitted to the next generation.
What imho is the irony of it all is that the left doesn't really believe in human kindness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
:speechless: oh yes, sorry, you are quite right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Don't you see the inherent paradox of institutionalising humanity out of kindness.Quote:
Originally Posted by alh_p
I miss AdrianII I am sure he has something to say here.
As for left/right it's pretty simple, we don't want to be a part of a machine no matter how good it works. We just want to do as we please.
Nope, not when what the state is meant to do is further it and ultimately avoid dependancy on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I understand what you are getting at - but disagree. What you are thinking about is bureaucracy rather than the left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
A fair distinction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
However, the political left's preference has been for a comparatively powerful government to engender social change towards a more idealized end-state of culture/economics etc. Regrettably, nobody has come up with a way to truly smooth out the major kinks inherent in the bureacratic approach and government is virtually guaranteed to end up as a bureaucracy wherever it is not conducted by fiat or by graft.
This limitation undercuts many of the political left's best efforts.
No, it's it very core, the left loves humanity but doesn't trust the people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
And at it's core the right fears and distrusts humanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The right always talks about reducing state power, but always increases it. State power and state spending grow every year regardless of who is in charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
wrong, the opposite to Fragony's statement about the left would be far closer to the mark:Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
at it's it very core, the right trusts the people but doesn't 'love' humanity.
wrong again, authoritarian governments increase state power, and excellent example of which is the last 13 years of labour government where ~4,300 new criminal offences were created, and guess which side of the spectrum they happened to sit.............Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
By emphasising personal responsibity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Centre-right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
In some ways. It's a useless concept overall, extreme leftist when it comes to multiculturalism. Our socialist party was anti-immigration when Wilders was still bouncing in the punk scene. I see 'the left' as utopians, fits them better imho. I just got other concerns, what's for dinner and other trivialities in the greater scheme.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Actually, according to the Political Compass of 2010 policies, Labour is pretty much Right-wing and in bed with the Conservatives and the BNP. Lib-dems on the otherhand are Centre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
https://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6629/compass.png
Not always, but all too often. The Reagan administration truly did scale back federal power in a number of categories (though not of course spending). Sadly, both of the Bush administrations exemplified your point qiute a lot -- and 43 was way worse than 41. In fact, to find a series of Right Wing administrations that didn't you pretty well have to go back to Harding/Coolidge (and they had the advantage of the boom of the 1920s and resurgent US isolationism/downsize the military to work with).Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Is the same pattern true in the UK as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
really it is the mainstream of politics (the two and a half parties) that define the spectrum of politics, regardless of what the political compass says, it is designed to represent every view across the entire spectrum rather than differntiate along the spectrum that is relevant to the polity it is describing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
i would also say that that graph is not representaive of todays policy if it is placing the Cons as next door neighbours to labour on authoritarianism.
Surely the 'traditional left' on Beskar's graph should be the authoritarian left? That's why the likes of the Scottish Socialist Party belong in the top-left quarter, whereas the new liberal left like the Greens go in the bottom-left?
No, that is incorrect, what I put is correct. Also, if you take a bunch of results, you will see the linear line between the axis I pointed out. There is a strong correlation between Left-Liberatarian, and Right-Authorianism. What many people don't understand is the nature of power and no, the government isn't the only power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
please edumacate us on the nature of power then, because i have never found british left wing of mainstream politics to be any less less authoritarian than the mainstream right.............
Since Mainstream is classed as Labour being Left and Conversatives right, it is rather like the Lib-dems discribed it as "Labservative". What is interesting though, where my Political Compass score was in relation to the parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
Mine is almost spot-on where the Lib-Dem's lie, but i don't agree with almost anything on their manifesto.
I don't really like the political compass. I think it's a tedious way to see all political systems as if they were factions within the US Republican or Democrat parties.
Same here. The fact that the BNP are placed to the left of Labour shows that there is just too much to ram into a simple left/right spectrum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
It wouldn't even let you chart those factions accurately. Twin axes are somewhat limiting at best, though at least nominally better than the hackneyed left/right dichotomy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho