Euro Area

We also do a massive amount of trade with Ireland, and so don't want to loose the market. Greece is far more peripheral.

~:smoking:

they are family, and their prosperity has a direct impact on ours.

greece.......... its a sunny place where people under 30 go to pick up std's from other young people.

Greece and Ireland are very different situations. And for the UK, Ireland will quite naturally be treated differently to perhaps all other European countries. Still I question why the unemployed Greek shouting at a bank should have been portrayed as a lazy, frustrated socialist who ought to get a job, whereas the unemployed Irishman, angry and frustrated at his banks, should be portrayed as a victim of circumstance, the subject of sympathy.

I have a lot of sympathy for both. I do wish the Irish would be a bit more fiery in their protests. Banks are said to be too big too fall. 'We can not risk a banking collapse, so instead let's, erm, let's have a social collapse'.
Apparantly social collapse is not a problem. The Irish are so small that their fall is not a problem. So make it a problem. When Dublin is burned and the palaces destroyed, then the next time, it will be said that 'we can not risk social collapse, so instead of only the ordinary citizens, let X and Y carry some of the burden too'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I have a lot of sympathy for both. I do wish the Irish would be a bit more fiery in their protests. Banks are said to be too big too fall. 'We can not risk a banking collapse, so instead let's, erm, let's have a social collapse'.
Apparantly social collapse is not a problem. The Irish are so small that their fall is not a problem. So make it a problem. When Dublin is burned and the palaces destroyed, then the next time, it will be said that 'we can not risk social collapse, so instead of only the ordinary citizens, let X and Y carry some of the burden too'.

---

I fear you may get your wish, though not quite in the manner anticipated.

There is some intelligence circulating that the dissident republican groups are planning an attack on the British mainland. These groups are very tiny, with almost no support and even less access to weaponry of note - but they have a tendency to attract young men of poor intelligence and poorer prospects. It is highly likely that the economic disaster in the Republic will boost the recruitment to these groups.

Meanwhile, Cowen has announced a cut in his salary, that of Taoiseach. Well, a cut in his cuccessor's salary to be precise. As a sign of solidarity with the hard hit electorate. A cut of €14.000 a year. This will diminish the position of Irish leader from that of highest paid political position in the west, to that of highest paid political position in the west, minus €14.000.

Quote:

---

Some Irish v UK Salaries

UK: Prime minister David Cameron - £142,500.
Ireland: Taoiseach Brian Cowen - €228,446 (£193,250.01)
Who's on top? Ireland

UK: NHS chief executive David Nicolson - £255,000
Ireland: HSE chief executive Cathal Magee – salary of €322,000 (£272,390.43)
Who's on top? Ireland

Department of finance
UK: Treasury permanent secretary, Sir Nicholas Macpherson £175,000
Ireland: Department of finance's secretary general, Kevin Cardiff €228,446 (£193,250.01)
Who's on top? Ireland

An Post
UK: Royal Mail managing director Mark Middleton £154,999
Ireland: An Post chief executive Donal Connell €500,000 (£423,097.31)
Who's on top? Ireland

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Meanwhile, Cowen has announced a cut in his salary, that of Taoiseach. Well, a cut in his cuccessor's salary to be precise. As a sign of solidarity with the hard hit electorate. A cut of €14.000 a year. This will diminish the position of Irish leader from that of highest paid political position in the west, to that of highest paid political position in the west, minus €14.000.

---

I assume thats just a typo it actually went down by €14,000 and €10,000 for the rest of them.

The heads of the state agenies like An Post and the HSE are to go down to €250,000 twas announced today(still to much in my view but its a start)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

I fear you may get your wish, though not quite in the manner anticipated.

There is some intelligence circulating that the dissident republican groups are planning an attack on the British mainland. These groups are very tiny, with almost no support and even less access to weaponry of note - but they have a tendency to attract young men of poor intelligence and poorer prospects. It is highly likely that the economic disaster in the Republic will boost the recruitment to these groups.

---

One car bomb in the City of London financial district could really :daisy: things up. Irish banks in the UK following another blast in London could topple Ireland back into the stone age. If things get worse and trust me they can get worse the UK will be seriously as affected every man women and child in Ireland buys about 3 grands worth of UK stuff basically were more important to the UK that the BRIC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Greece and Ireland are very different situations. And for the UK, Ireland will quite naturally be treated differently to perhaps all other European countries. Still I question why the unemployed Greek shouting at a bank should have been portrayed as a lazy, frustrated socialist who ought to get a job, whereas the unemployed Irishman, angry and frustrated at his banks, should be portrayed as a victim of circumstance, the subject of sympathy.

I have a lot of sympathy for both. I do wish the Irish would be a bit more fiery in their protests. Banks are said to be too big too fall. 'We can not risk a banking collapse, so instead let's, erm, let's have a social collapse'.
Apparantly social collapse is not a problem. The Irish are so small that their fall is not a problem. So make it a problem. When Dublin is burned and the palaces destroyed, then the next time, it will be said that 'we can not risk social collapse, so instead of only the ordinary citizens, let X and Y carry some of the burden too'.

---

The problem is that when Ireland rises up it is not a great old funtimes like 1968 with freelove and poetry it is far more cruel a civil war is not be too much of a stretch if we did a continential style of street protest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brenus

Yeah, but all talk show in Radio Station like LBC were why do we have to help the lazy corrupted (Mediterranean) Greeks who got more sun than here and enjoy life then it was why we have to help our hardworking Irish neighbours…
And the government (the same that didn’t want to give one kopek to the Greek and death to the Euro Zone) explaining if we don’t we will face a wave of immigration for this island…

---

Think London is prob thinking in national security terms if the South was economically dynamited then the North would effectively be nuked and we would end up with 30yrs of violence again and thousands more dead.

Irish migration to the UK basically has on the whole been positive (at least from southern Ireland)and I don't really expect that to stop anytime soon.

an excellent article on the euro-area default that will arrive imminently:

http://www.project-syndicate.org/com...reen25/English

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Furunculus

an excellent article on the euro-area default that will arrive imminently:

http://www.project-syndicate.org/com...reen25/English

---

The more they try to assure the market that they will defend the Euro (and bondholders) the more likely it is they will end up breaking it.

Quote:

---

Estonia has become the 17th member of the eurozone - the first ex-Soviet state to adopt the EU single currency.

The changeover from the kroon to the euro started at midnight (2200 GMT) in the small Baltic nation of 1.3m people. Despite market pressure on the eurozone and the Greek and Irish bail-outs this year, polls suggested most Estonians wanted the euro.
Prime Minister Andrus Ansip marked the event by withdrawing euros from a cashpoint.
"It is a small step for the eurozone and a big step for Estonia," he said, holding the euro notes.
For many Estonians, 20 years after breaking away from the Soviet Union, the euro is proof that they have fully arrived in the West, the BBC's Baltic region correspondent, Damien McGuinness, reports.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12098513

---

Yay! Welcome to the club! http://www.interinvest.lv/design/eu_flag.gif


...now underdeveloped Estonia can join in paying compensation to filthy rich Irish and corrupt Greeks...

it will be interesting to see how much strong-arming it takes to stop poland from displaying any public worry about its own imminent membership of the eurozone.....

Interesting piece on Estonia by Krugman

What If They Had A Depression And Nobody Noticed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

The more they try to assure the market that they will defend the Euro (and bondholders) the more likely it is they will end up breaking it.

---

It seems like the UK Automotive Industry in the 1970's but on a massive scale - if something is known to be government backed then others will take bigger and bigger liberties as there will always be more money.

~:smoking:

portugal heads down the toilet:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...s-in-portugal/

hooray for unworkable political constructs masquerading as viable economic unions!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Furunculus

portugal heads down the toilet:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...s-in-portugal/

hooray for unworkable political constructs masquerading as viable economic unions!

---

Portugal placed all of it's debt auction in the market today and the rate actually went down from the last time.

It has become clear to me that there is a lot of people writing for reputable newspapers that are frankly only doing guess work...with the problem being that what these morons say actually has affect on the markets.

there is a lot of people making a lot of money out of making other people scared....

and if the euro is the problem why is the UK's budget situation a mess also?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronin

It has become clear to me that there is a lot of people writing for reputable newspapers that are frankly only doing guess work...with the problem being that what these morons say actually has affect on the markets.

and if the euro is the problem why is the UK's budget situation a mess also?

---

hmmm, not including various german and french officials who are trying to push portugal into accepting a bailout...........?

because the previous gov't spent ten years heamoragging taxpayers money out of its ideologically ruptured fiscal rectum.

Probably a bit of both.

~:smoking:

Problem is not the Euro, it is the USA in causing this crisis in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

Problem is not the Euro, it is the USA in causing this crisis in the first place.

---

Just admit it: We control the world. Everything good or bad that happens to Europe is because of us. We are your masters. :evil:

Then why is it the Euro in trouble, and not a host of other countries?

The events have stressed the system and the weak ones are failing. The good times merely hid the problems.

~:smoking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Then why is it the Euro in trouble, and not a host of other countries?

The events have stressed the system and the weak ones are failing. The good times merely hid the problems.

~:smoking:

---

It is other countries in Trouble, America, US and other countries.

Even China took a hit to their profit margins due to the decrease in demand.

Main problem was a couple of European countries which abused their budgets. There are other nations such as Germany who are having no where near the issues of the UK, so it isn't a 'Euro' problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

Problem is not the Euro, it is the USA in causing this crisis in the first place.

---

are you saying that if it wasn't for the fact that complex systems (such as the global economy) tend to throw out black-swan events (such as the great depression) it would be fine to deliberately implement fundamentally flawed economic regimes (such as the eurozone)?

there is no other way to say this: monetary union without a political union to legitimise the necessary fiscal union does not work, because you need to transfer wealth from rich areas to poor areas to prevent market fracturing, and that tends to lead to seccession or civil-war unless the parties involved have given their prior consent.

there. is. lots. wrong. with. the. eurozone.

right. now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

Main problem was a couple of European countries which abused their budgets. There are other nations such as Germany who are having no where near the issues of the UK, so it isn't a 'Euro' problem.

---

and unless a black swan event comes around we could continue to pretend that it didn't matter that the eurozone economies were diverging further and further away from being an optimal currency unit, but sadly real life happens, and will happen again and again and again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Furunculus

are you saying that if it wasn't for the fact that complex systems (such as the global economy) tend to throw out black-swan events (such as the great depression) it would be fine to deliberately implement fundamentally flawed economic regimes (such as the eurozone)?

there is no other way to say this: monetary union without a political union to legitimise the necessary fiscal union does not work, because you need to transfer wealth from rich areas to poor areas to prevent market fracturing, and that tends to lead to civil-war unless the parties involved have given their prior consent.

there. is. lots. wrong. with. the. eurozone.

right. now.

---

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the concept of a single currency. Yes, there needs to be more harmonization but that is occurring anyway with the rise of globalization. The issue was the individual poor governance by countries leading to a situation they could not manage if they were administrated better.

As for the "need to transfer wealth from rich areas to poor", isn't that happening anyway? As our western money flows in the piggy bank of nations such as India, Brazil and China, the market does this in itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the concept of a single currency.

As for the "need to transfer wealth from rich areas to poor", isn't that happening anyway? As our western money flows in the piggy bank of nations such as India, Brazil and China, the market does this in itself.

---

no indeed not, provided there is a fiscal union to go along with currency union.
http://www.euro-know.org/europages/articles/rmu.html

it is one thing is lack of competitiveness pushes foriegn direct investment away from your nation, it is quite another if your elected representative decides to subsidise the easy living within another country!
http://israelfinancialexpert.blogspo...k-bailout.html

It is quite clear to me now that most people here are missing the point of this thread completely.

A Eurozone debt default does not destroy the Euro, nor does debt restructuring end in countries having to leave the Euro.

Trying to maintain the value of the bad euro loans will break the euro if we try to pretend they wont be restructured later.

Sounds funny cos its the same result but you have strangled domestic demand and encouraged capital flight to non euro countries which is a killer for a currency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Furunculus

are you saying that if it wasn't for the fact that complex systems (such as the global economy) tend to throw out black-swan events (such as the great depression) it would be fine to deliberately implement fundamentally flawed economic regimes (such as the eurozone)?

there is no other way to say this: monetary union without a political union to legitimise the necessary fiscal union does not work, because you need to transfer wealth from rich areas to poor areas to prevent market fracturing, and that tends to lead to seccession or civil-war unless the parties involved have given their prior consent.

there. is. lots. wrong. with. the. eurozone.

right. now.



and unless a black swan event comes around we could continue to pretend that it didn't matter that the eurozone economies were diverging further and further away from being an optimal currency unit, but sadly real life happens, and will happen again and again and again.

---

haha, it seems i have pre-dated an economist article saying mcuh the same thing:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bligh...urs_blame_game

Quote:

---

Ed Miliband says sorry for everything apart from spending too much

................ After the longest economic expansion in British history, the government should not have still been borrowing to spend. Instead of going into the recession with a warchest, it went in with a deficit. Recognise this error, say sorry, take the hit, and move on, would seem to be the intellectually honest and politically canny thing to do.

Instead, Ed Miliband has manouvered his party into a bizarre and extremely unpromising position. In recent op-eds, yesterday's speech to the Fabian Society conference, and today's appearance on the BBC, he has rejected the notion that Labour overspent. The 2.4% deficit the government was running would have been fine, he says, were it not for the banking crisis, which caused tax revenues to evaporate while requiring massive amounts to be spent on bailouts and fiscal stimuli.

In other words, if only economic growth were endless, if only recessions did not happen, if only this pesky "economic cycle" thing would go away, governments could spend freely and perpetually. As many commentators have noted, this is grimly redolent of Gordon Brown's insistence that "boom and bust" is something that can be transcended, rather than a cold reality that governments must make preparations and provisions for...........

---

interesting article on how the ECB is exacerbating the problem of a sub-optimal currency zone:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...etary_policy_1

oops, it would appear that not everyone is delighted with the Sarkozy/Merkel template Pour Das European Economy:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...745383,00.html

hilarious that people might have believed otherwise..........