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Slingers are really just there to kill cav in this game and suppress heavy infantry from moving. Their main purposes are to achieve asymmetric kill costs (a slinger costs 800/60 = 13.3 a man but a hoplite costs something like 16.25 and an elite infantry costs like 32.5 a man while chargers cost 100 man) and soak up arrows.
This is getting no where lets discuss some other issues.
Just a freindly question, what exactly is the proper way to use over hand spear cav. What is it good at killing?
Not much
Since 2.0 you want to use overhand spear cavalry to fight unarmoured men, while using any AP secondaries to fight armoured infantry and cavalry.
Sure but is their any reason to use them? For what are they better than infantry or underhand spear cavalry? I tend not to use them though I'd really like to see some use for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by vartan
People are afraid to use them, I think. I showed how they work in an early 2.0 beta and it's on my YouTube page. You can use light or medium cavalry with overhand spears to punish enemy foot missile units who have strayed too far forward, or whose player is being careless.
you may want to slightly bump up their missile defense values so they can do it without getting shot apart.
That's difficult. On which base should their shield or armour be increased? It would be wrong to give them 6 armour-points for the same armour another unit has witch 5 armour-points.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
You don't need to raise their armour points. And they aren't going to get shot, since the enemy is shooting at something else. That's why it's called punishment.
+ most over hand spear cav have a shield , which does well in deflecting arrows.
Sure. I just wanted to note that I don't see any way to make them more bullet/arrow-proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by vartan
... because their cav will prolly win anyway :DQuote:
Originally Posted by vartan
I suppose that I need to test the rebalanced cav first :]
Not really. Two medium cavalry with axes defeat prodromoi and Hellenic Cataphract.
Ok a few things I noticed. One, why do cappadocian hillmen get a bonus against cavalry? Two, Klerouchoi Phalangitai also get a bonus while no other phalanx does though I believe this is an old EB mistake.
I also have a suggestion for skirmishers. Since we are not going to make them better, can we at least make them cheaper? Akontistai should be cheaper than slingers or archers at least, even though they do have more men in the unit since they are considerably more useless.
They kill elephants and dudes with little armor. Problem is they just insta-rout due ot scaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin
Well anti-elephant is a very small role that rarely makes itself manifest. Dudes with little armor are better dealt with by archers who can fire several volleys off before the skirmishers come into range. Since you are limited to 5 missile units I can understand the use but why not just take a cheap medium infantry unit with javs instead assuming you can afford it? They can at least fight in melee and from my experience, you are much better off with a medium infantry unit than 2 skirms. The 20 unit limit prompts this somewhat, especially if you are purchasing cheaper archers.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
Well, skirms aren't counted as missiles and the anti-elephant role is important and not all skirms are crap. The Eastern ones are quite alright due to their AP. Complaining about greek skirms is like complaining about celts having garbage archery.
There is a 6 skirm limit currently but it is to prevent forever auto run away armies. I suppose we can lift it once Iberia is a little less ridiculous.
What's wrong with the lusos, now?
I'm not complaining, simply pointing out that skirmishers have little role in most armies. How often does an opponent bring elephants? Once every 25 battles? And what eastern skirmishers are you referencing that have ap? The Baktrian Light infantry are the only ones I can think of. I'm not talking about peltasts or higher end skirmishers like baktrians, arabians or even the iberian types. I'm solely referring to the lowest tier of skirmishers. The gund-i-palta and akontistai types.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
As far as them not counting towards the missile limit that I can appreciate, but I also appreciate that if you have 5 archers or slingers, spending some of the remaining 15 slots on skirmishers is probably a waste, especially the lowest tier.
The Iberian ones are pretty ridiculous form what I've seen last year.
Could you elaberate that? I've played them a few times now so I can perhaps say something about if they are still ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
The anti elephant slot can be taken up by charger cavalry.
First of all, Which SKirmishers have AP???
and
why is there a limit of 5 missiles, when the missile class includes Slingers Archers AND horse archers. While there is a limit of 6 skirmishers but the skirmisher class only includes ONE type of unit SKirmishers. It doesnt make sense though i can live with it.
and robin i think even if you make them cheaper they wont be any better, i dont see whats the point in making them cheaper , they will still be useless.What do you hope to get by making them cheaper ?
EDIT: and hey guys, those thraikian pelteasts are supposed to be the best of the peltestai , right? So i gotta ask what makes them better then all the other peltasts ?
Better javelins. Better armor. Better melee. Does not insta rout. All round awsome units.
Iberian ambushers have the crazy ability to murder the crap out of cavalry due to their high morale and ridiculous javelin count. Its the only faction that can feasibly actually get a bunch of their uber skirms and use them to flank and jav in the back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
Charger cav can counter elephants but that's when you have no clue how to use elephants.
I made the skirm rule do you couldn't spam an auto run-away army. I suppose we can lift skirm restrictions and just add something to fair play rules to deal with skirmishing stalling.
I say its fair game, cavalry will still beat skirms anyhow, I know gamegeek2 used that, but it failed miserably against gauls but did well enough against cavalry.
thraikians dont have better javelins. but the rest is trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Lazy O
yes, i feel the skirmisher restriction is not fair for factions that rely heavily on skirmishers like luso for example. restricting skirmishers for luso is like restricting cohorts for rome.+ skirmishers are not that good so limiting them is unnecessary.Quote:
I made the skirm rule do you couldn't spam an auto run-away army. I suppose we can lift skirm restrictions and just add something to fair play rules to deal with skirmishing stalling.
Lets say a person got an "auto run-away army" full of skirmishers , he wouldn't win a battle against a balanced army from ANY faction. That is what balance is all about its about having the EDU so balanced that spam army of any unit never wins against a well balanced army.
I misplayed against that gaul army. Engaged too early. Also that Luso army wont work well now without goidils, but the new general bonus should help some.
Lusotann get no access to archers though and its hard to say that Balearics are worth their price when matched against archers. Therefore, most players will see those skirmishers shot to pieces by archers before they can get around back and start pelting enemy infantry.
They would be very much worth it if cavalry were real cavalry and could kill slings and archers within seconds!!!!!!!
And why in bloody hell do Chalkispedes cost only 2400? Being elites phalanx with 15 morale?
/rant