Geert Wilders comes out of the closet as an anti-semite

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

We don't stun the animal while hunting. So it would seem that the jews already "play by our rules". What we want them to do, is play by rules we don't have. That seems weird.

As for the points Moros makes; I can't really see how any of that is relevant to a kosher/no kosher debate...

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But it are rules we have, do you see any extra benefit in the animal having to be concious. That's what upsets them that they can't be sure the animal is fully concious. Should we have any patience for that I think not.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'm referring to the kind that's legal over basically all of Europe.

But meh, if you want specifics, have a go at the Moose hunt we do in Norway every autumn.

The point is that if one supports such hunting, one must assume that one is comfortable with animal lives being taken that way. If so, it seems weird that one wishes to implement restrictions in one field, but not the other. To conclude, if you support hunting, you should also support methods of slaughter which are no more cruel than hunting.

And no kind of either halal or kosher slaughter is worse than hunting.

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What kind?

Packs of hounds? Guns? Flush to guns with dogs? Stalking?

I don't think you've given this question much thought or study.

Do you stun whales before you harpoon them?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

What kind?

Packs of hounds? Guns? Flush to guns with dogs? Stalking?

I don't think you've given this question much thought or study.

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All of them, if you'd like.

Though I do believe I answered your question with more specifics, try reading it again.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Do you stun whales before you harpoon them?

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Hooray! Someone brought up whaling!

I also fully support whaling, of course. But the rest of you dimwits seem to have a big issue with our brand of Whale Love, so unfortunately I can't use it as an argument... I doubt Wilders is a big fan of whaling, however fun it may be.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Hooray! Someone brought up whaling!

I also fully support whaling, of course. But the rest of you dimwits seem to have a big issue with our brand of Whale Love, so unfortunately I can't use it as an argument... I doubt Wilders is a big fan of whaling, however fun it may be.

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That makes your fur industry-point a bit confusing

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

As for the points Moros makes; I can't really see how any of that is relevant to a kosher/no kosher debate...

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As it was a response to your point. I can't but help to feel, you just shot your own argument.

Secondly the failing of killing an animal succesfully, the stress and animals being processed alive and concious is something that is prevented or limited by sedation.

Also it's funny how we are still debating this as Frags and many other have already stated. Why would one make exemptions based on religion on the first place? It's discrimination for one. If we want everyone to be able to decide what is morally acceptable for them, then why have laws in the first place? If there are exceptions in a law there should be good reasons for it, personal moral views aren't those. The Sharia surely isn't either.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That makes your fur industry-point a bit confusing

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Whales be fer eatin'. Foxes be fer wearin'.

I like food. I like meat. I like sea-food. I don't like being hungry. Nor do I like upper-class old hags torturing animals so they can wear expensive clothing cheaply and look like crap.

Enough of an answer?

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Originally Posted by Moros

As it was a response to your point. I can't but help to feel, you just shot your own argument.

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Hm? You stated that the level of stress is high in the slaughterhouse. True. Kosher slaughter won't affect the level of stress though. How 'bout trying to reduce the level of stress in the slaughterhouse then? You know, making actual progress instead of symbolic action? Same goes for animals not properly slaughtered, no need to ban kosher to fix that. Both of these suggestions will increase the price of meat though, as it will mean added expensives for the meat producer. I guess it's a lot easier to pass laws which inconvenience others than laws which inconvenience ourselves.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Hm? You stated that the level of stress is high in the slaughterhouse. True. Kosher slaughter won't affect the level of stress though. How 'bout trying to reduce the level of stress in the slaughterhouse then? You know, making actual progress instead of symbolic action? Same goes for animals not properly slaughtered, no need to ban kosher to fix that. Both of these suggestions will increase the price of meat though, as it will mean added expensives for the meat producer. I guess it's a lot easier to pass laws which inconvenience others than laws which inconvenience ourselves.

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Yes it is. Sedation helps to reduce animal suffering. Are you familiar with the concept of sedation?

Also excuse my vary late edit to my previous post, but it was dinner time while I was writing.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

All of them, if you'd like.

Though I do believe I answered your question with more specifics, try reading it again.

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I don't know anything about moose hunting, so you didn't, and lots of types of hunting are legal across Europe.

If you stalk moose the way we stalk hart then I can't see how that could possibly be cruel - the animal literally doesn't know what's hit it, it falls dead as soon as shot.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I don't know anything about moose hunting, so you didn't, and lots of types of hunting are legal across Europe.

If you stalk moose the way we stalk hart then I can't see how that could possibly be cruel - the animal literally doesn't know what's hit it, it falls dead as soon as shot.

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Cruel? Of course it's not - just like kosher slaughter isn't cruel either.

As for your demand for more details on hunting - frags managed to answer just fine.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Cruel? Of course it's not - just like kosher slaughter isn't cruel either.

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Not necesarily, but kosher also means that a cut gone wrong kinda changes things, because of fairytales a second cut won't be made and it can last a very mean long time.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not necesarily, but kosher also means that a cut gone wrong kinda changes things, because of fairytales a second cut won't be made and it can last a very mean long time.

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Bah, with our slaughter techniques we boil a hefty amount of chickens alive, to name one example.

I still eat chicken though.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Bah, with our slaughter techniques we boil a hefty amount of chickens alive, to name one example.

I still eat chicken though.

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That's not boiling that is electrified water, it stuns them

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That's not boiling that is electrified water, it stuns them

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Ah yes, the electrified water that's supposed to stun them. Unfortunately, quite a few of them die in that water, so what happened to "no slaugher without sedation", eh? That's one end of the scale, on the other end some come out without sedation at all, alive and kicking when they meet the whirring blades. And when the chicken is alive at the blade, they often squirm out of the way, before they finally die when they're boiled alive.

That's one way, the other is gassing them with CO2. That results in less chickens dying from what was supposed to sedate them, but even more chickens come of the chamber without sedation, resulting in the aforementioned boiling death.

Wonderful, eh? So humane, compared to those rotten joos....

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Ah yes, the electrified water that's supposed to stun them. Unfortunately, quite a few of them die in that water, so what happened to "no slaugher without sedation", eh? That's one end of the scale, on the other end some come out without sedation at all, alive and kicking when they meet the whirring blades. And when the chicken is alive at the blade, they often squirm out of the way, before they finally die when they're boiled alive.

That's one way, the other is gassing them with CO2. That results in less chickens dying from what was supposed to sedate them, but even more chickens come of the chamber without sedation, resulting in the aforementioned boiling death.

Wonderful, eh? So humane, compared to those rotten joos....

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If the shock that is supposed to knock them out of concious, kills them then the same effect was achieved. Also a good job trying to get a lot of other examples throw away the one and single important thing that is to be remember from this argument. There is no, one single reasons, why someone should be exempt from laws by basis of religion. You're discriminating. You're making people unequal. A personal system of believes or morals shouldn't result in your personal law. Psychopaths might believe they were right in killing people, maybe they think God wants them too. Sure that may be different and a ridiculous example, but where draw the line.Official religions? That would make a mess and would discriminate the atheïsts for one. Also when does what rule apply, converting to other religions for mild punishments,...?

HoreTore you are being ridiculous and you know it. God, I hope you know it.

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Originally Posted by Moros

If the shock that is supposed to knock them out of concious, kills them then the same effect was achieved. Also a good job trying to get a lot of other examples throw away the one and single important thing that is to be remember from this argument. There is no, one single reasons, why someone should be exempt from laws by basis of religion. You're discriminating. You're making people unequal. A personal system of believes or morals shouldn't result in your personal law. Psychopaths might believe they were right in killing people, maybe they think God wants them too. Sure that may be different and a ridiculous example, but where draw the line.Official religions? That would make a mess and would discriminate the atheïsts for one. Also when does what rule apply, converting to other religions for mild punishments,...?

HoreTore you are being ridiculous and you know it. God, I hope you know it.

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I'm not arguing for religious exemptions, I'm arguing that the method of slaughter called kosher meets the "humane" standard and is a perfectly fine way to kill an animal.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'm not arguing for religious exemptions, I'm arguing that the method of slaughter called kosher meets the "humane" standard and is a perfectly fine way to kill an animal.

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Sorry to butt in, but I'm surprised you're still arguing about it. Seriously, who gives a crap? Wilders is entitled to think that kosher method is inhumane while other methods are. That doesn't make him an antisemite in any way, shape or form.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Sorry to butt in, but I'm surprised you're still arguing about it. Seriously, who gives a crap? Wilders is entitled to think that kosher method is inhumane while other methods are. That doesn't make him an antisemite in any way, shape or form.

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The main method of persecution of jews in Europe has always been to target their various rituals. The blood jews, the well poisoners, etc.

Thus, a European majority representive targetting jewish rituals should naturally be examined closely.

In Detroit they say: "Nigga please."

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'm not arguing for religious exemptions, I'm arguing that the method of slaughter called kosher meets the "humane" standard and is a perfectly fine way to kill an animal.

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Well apparently the Dutch disagree and apparently so did the Norse. And if the majority of the Dutch feel that way it is logical and normal that they decide to put it in law. That's democracy. Whether or not you agree. Cuius regio, eius leges.

It has no point in arguing what you find acceptable. I'm sure you know what you find and don't find acceptable. No relevancy to the Dutch our their legislation, nor to any Dutch politician. If it's yourself and your personal views you want to be the subject of thread, you should put that into the title and or the opening post. ~:)

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The main method of persecution of jews in Europe has always been to target their various rituals. The blood jews, the well poisoners, etc.

Thus, a European majority representive targetting jewish rituals should naturally be examined closely.

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Only be making exceptions to laws, do you target people, silly. Also I believe you were not debating those?

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Originally Posted by Moros

Also I believe you were not debating those?

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Read post #82 to see the end of the points in the OP, read posts #83 and #84 to see the new point being debated.

As for your thoughts on democracy, I will only note that you made Stalin blush with your collectivist views...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I will only note that you made Stalin blush with your collectivist views...

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Jelly?

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Originally Posted by Moros

Jelly?

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Nah, I'm only collectivist when it comes to economics ~;)

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Nah, I'm only collectivist when it comes to economics ~;)

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And you are allowed to teach!? Heavens me. Catholic schools help our children!

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Ah yes, the electrified water that's supposed to stun them. Unfortunately, quite a few of them die in that water, so what happened to "no slaugher without sedation", eh? That's one end of the scale, on the other end some come out without sedation at all, alive and kicking when they meet the whirring blades. And when the chicken is alive at the blade, they often squirm out of the way, before they finally die when they're boiled alive.

That's one way, the other is gassing them with CO2. That results in less chickens dying from what was supposed to sedate them, but even more chickens come of the chamber without sedation, resulting in the aforementioned boiling death.

Wonderful, eh? So humane, compared to those rotten joos....

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We are really talking about different things here, it's not about the jews it's about the animals. If they don't like having their special treatment because of religious rules being revoked there is this mythical place called 'somewhere else'. They can still import it if they insist on kosher. I am pretty sure only a very small amount of jews are upset about this 100 or so max, the rest munch porkchops like the best of us. If you want to see orthodox jews in the wild you have to go to our southern neighbours.

No idea what you mean with boiling death by the way

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Whales be fer eatin'. Foxes be fer wearin'.

I like food. I like meat. I like sea-food. I don't like being hungry. Nor do I like upper-class old hags torturing animals so they can wear expensive clothing cheaply and look like crap.

Enough of an answer?

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Do you need to eat whales? No. Is it rare and therefore exclusive (and probably expensive. If it's cheap then things get even more fun)? Yes.

You're doing what they're doing, only appealing to your taste buds, instead of sight and touch.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

No idea what you mean with boiling death by the way

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Chickens are boiled after chopping its head in order to remove its feathers. If it avoids the blade, then it's still alive when it's boiled. No chance of escaping that part alive though, that's a definite end.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Do you need to eat whales? No. Is it rare and therefore exclusive (and probably expensive. If it's cheap then things get even more fun)? Yes.

You're doing what they're doing, only appealing to your taste buds, instead of sight and touch.

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Rare? Exclusive? Expensive? Whale beef?

See, this is what you get for being born in the east bloc, where you can't have any fun on the seas. Whale beef has been considered very cheap food for ages, a lot of it fed to animals. Under the level of cod, in other words.

Due it not being possible to produce it on the industrial scale required nowadays, however, it has fallen out of use. There have been some attempts during the last decade to reintroduce whales as a "normal" dinner, but it's a long way from catching on.you do get it in plenty of stores, but since it's not a big hit you mostly get it frozen(as you can't sell it fast enough to keep it fresh), further limiting its viability.

A shame really, since I like the taste...

Whales(certain kinds) are an enviromentally sustainable resource, and in a hungry world there's no point in letting viable resources rot away. Much better to have it fill our bellies than rot in the ocean. Overfishing is a problem, but overfishing is a problem for every fish resource. The stock needs to be regulated heavily, like all other fish is. If that's done sensibly, I see no reason not to man the harpoons. And speaking of fish: how is the "all animals should be sedated before they're killed"-motto doing in that business?

10% of the moose being shot is only wounded, but that doesn't stop me from eating moose.

I make other animals suffer and die so I can eat well and live. More people should be aware of that fact, instead of living in the illusion that the meat they have on their plate is produced by rainbows, sunshine and sparkling stars. I believe that will create a society with a healthier respect for food and the animals we eat.

'Chickens are boiled after chopping its head in order to remove its feathers'

You mean after chopping of it's head it's soul is still dancing?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

'Chickens are boiled after chopping its head in order to remove its feathers'

You mean after chopping of it's head it's soul is still dancing?

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No. I've said it already, but I'll repeat it:

Some chickens are not properly sedated. When that happens(and it could also happen while sedated, but that's rare), the chicken squirms out of the way of the blade. Thus, the head is still attached and the chicken alive and kicking when it gets to the next stop on the line, which is to boil it and remove the feathers.