You need to try my almohead all missile army LadyAn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif It can be beaten, but it is a lot of fun to play with. A big challenge
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You need to try my almohead all missile army LadyAn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif It can be beaten, but it is a lot of fun to play with. A big challenge
Elmarko,
I'm not so sure she would want to use that army Elm. Simply irresistable LadyAn trashed that Elmohead all missle army of yours back on Dec 6th in a 15k battle after taking out AMP's Spanish cav heavy army, long lancer lines and all, and then went on to sack a Byz army as well. In fact, she personally dispatches all 4 enemy generals (2 captured and 2 routed) in a tour de force that ranks with the best I've seen against an all vet lineup, and does it with a muslim faction no less.
Check out the "Irresistable.zip" replay:
http://www.3ddownloads.com/strateg....ble.zip
Hmmmm... I dunno really if its fair or not. I do not care much. I only know i hate facing them when used by someone who knows how to use it. Point is that I prolly would have much difficulties with most armies that that person choose to field against me. I just wished they would choose the latter way of playing so I could enjoy this game as well, outcome will be same, just more enjoyment my side.
Cheap tactic... not really cheaper than any other tactic... since it is counterable. Is it enjoyable to face it... not really.
Wether or not something is being called a 'cheap tactic' depends on if you like that tactic or not. Some call my russian army lame others think it's cool others think it's overpowered, others think it's underpowered, etc., etc.
I only dislike tactics when they frustrate the balance of a game and require specific counterarmies. Imo you should be able to come up with an army with which it is possible to counter all other armies. Jst like in STW.
the only reason this all cav thing works is because almost all the maps a steppe flat or simular .
I would like to see them in rocky desert
but i must admit lancers are very powerfull
catholic .....YAAAaaaaawwwnn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/wacko.gif
I think that this all cav thing works because defenders are unprepared http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
Ah OK, I blamed Elmarko for that one, Puzz3D...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
Annie
LOL LadyAn. As discussed previously, Ann routed Amp's high val lancers thru my army like a goatherder and my men were wavering before anybody even got near them. hehe I had a few handgunners stick around for a bit, but the 5 arbs, the 2 or so camel units, and the arques and naptha guys all ran off fast. But remember I also had you and the player in the back, moving up on me so I could not face LadyAn's army as it flanked me badly. LadyAn did a great job of continuing the routing and she rolled over all of us. My all missile army is very good, but hard to play with. Most people that try it do not like it at all. It is not overpowered at all, but it is different, challenging and a lot more fun to play than an all cav, or heavily lancer-ed army, or any of your extremely boring armies LOL :P hehe
but still the fact stays that the game needs redressing some issues but will it improve.... or must we still accept those sweeping lines acroos a map?
i tested with amp yestersay with all cav 1 line setups and we both couldnt win vs this with a balanced setp.
it dont need much skill to move this cavs and turn them in, the cav is just extrem overpowered.
moving in this game is less important, doule units isnt realy helpful, just sometimes....but if u double an enemy unit and than comes a cav around and attack ur unit this unit is death. so doubling and flanking is realy risky.
the cavbonusses are jsut too big, they get too many bonusses
and this reduce clearly the skill u need to win, u just need to turn the cav in and in the other sec ur enemy routs.
u dont even has to target units, jsut move them in..... thats stupid as a nob can select all units and doubleclick behind ur lines.
another big problem is, that enemy routed units still efeect ur units, and always units keep fighting and march behind routed units, cav u cant move away by targetting an other unit, u have to doubleclick on the field. than u can select the target, thats clearly stupid.
but back to the routing units wich effects u all the time, i saw many replays where an enemy routed unit move truth ur lines and makes u rout. as u get -6 moral because they are in ur back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/redface.gif
so this is a mainreason, why u sometiems rout when ur winning imo the rout in all direction is nice but not very usefull if the skill shold decide about the outcome, otherwise its important to elemite the effect of routed units just a few men rout from a big unit, they never will rally, but they rout trought ur lines and kick ur army, thsi is clearly stupid, as u cant do something against it.
u can counter cav u can counter h2h units and u can stop flanking units, but u cant do something against this stupid routing.
Imo its very important to do something vs all this "bugs" or the gameplay gets worser and worser. U can already see, that bad player win vs ver good players, as moving or some nice traps just work if all are very tired. this bad players never do some nice moves they just trn the whole army and move in. the moralbonusses are to big the advance by staying close in just a way to hard.
koc
Hm, interesting ... I was able to defeat Crand's "cheesy" cav rush with a balanced army (4 arbs, 4 sword, 4 spear, 4 cav), and also CBR's cav rush with the same balanced army, and then CBR defeated my cav rush with a balanced army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif When I get home I will upload the replays. I am also sure that AMP can defeat my cav rush with a balanced army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif IMHO it all depends on whether the defender is prepared for the rush or not. If you receive the rush in an open formation then indeed you have little chance, but in a close formation even a balanced army can defeat the "overpowered" single line cav rush.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
All in all, I do not think that the fact that you cannot defeat the cav rush with a balanced army in an open formation would be a "bug" or a balance issue. This is not to say that there are no bugs (just think of the foyer) or balance issues (archers, cav archers, etc) but imho the thin line cav charge is not amongst them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
As we cannot balance the game that easily, the first big step might be done, when the so called top players who are moaning about imbalanced kav lines stopped using them. Great names are always an example to newer players.
Enough words lost
ELITEofBomilkar
well it depends fo some things, thats clear, but anyway the cav is too strong, and the spears to weak vs cav.
an easy solution is to higher the combatabiltys for spears vs cav.
if u play normal and u stay on an open field where i can flank u have problems to stand vs a cav rush
imo cavs should clearly lose vs spears, the spears hold the cav, yes......but they kill nothing and u can always turn ur cva back from the spears...
koc
as im not a top player, i can test more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif
i fully agree with koc about the flanking many times ive flanked a unit with infantry and a cav comes along and just takes it away without even needing to fight, flanking is a risky business nowadays .. i think he also sums up this thread with the test he and Amp have done. it is very easy to beat a balenced army with all cav, there is no reflection of skill involved :s thats the point ..
With lancers being so strong it makes it even worse, i find it nearly impossible to even hold lancers without a spear unit let alone beat them .. maybe its my skill but maybe its not, im not sure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif
Well I havent tried it against AMP (He must be the ultimate Cavalry (ab)user http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif ) But when prepared my balanced army have defeated a thin line rush in several 1v1 tests.
Problem is ofc that you rarely are prepared in a normal battle and a balanced army(with 4 spears) is weak against someone who brings 2 or even no spears.
Maybe spears should be a bit cheaper and maybe kill a bit more but if you really want to kill cavalry buy billmen/halbardiers
Yesterday we had a few 3v3 battles where all units had valour 3 (playing with 22k and 25k per player) to simulate more or less a 5k battle with +6 morale to all units. Armour and weapon upgrades were still allowed ofc.
The game is suddenly very different. You cant buy 16 heavy cav and just a few Lancers means you have to reduce something else in your army. Even my Egyptian 12 cav with 4 arbs were a lot stronger than in a normal game and my horsearchers killed more as the enemy had less armor.
I wish the expansion would bring a general morale increase (+6 or perhaps only +4) we would be then be playing with less florins and no one would complain about thin cav lines or all heavy cav armies or that Lancers are too strong.
CBR
the problem as i see still stands
the game units allow a perfect rock scissor paper match up, but it allows to much an army which relies on one of teh 3 aspects where its become very hard to beat by any othet sensible combo unless its teh arch-counter as used in teh game rock-scissor paper.
in old shog u could counter almost every one-sided army by a balanced army (with exception of teh ashis upgraded army) , in theory in MTW its possible to lose 100 games in a row if your enemy everytime makes the right gamble of unittypes.
furthermore cav is studpily strong, i too faced amps semi all combatcav army. even a boxed formation of your infantry is useless.
and people can not expect from teh better player not to use thin lines, since there are enuf weaker players who are dumb enuf not to see why they have won, and start thinking they are the better player themselves.
my latest invention is to play 1 vs 1 by chosing the same faction as my enemy does and as possible using the same combat cav amount as he does. the more he uese, the more i use in next battles.
games get more boring, and hardly epical, but the sheeps grow big in numbers and fat so...
if someone could ever shoot the devs from their clouds, that would be nice
Kocmoc,
I think you are wrong about routing units inflicting a morale penalty on enemy units. All my tests indicate that routing units have no morale effects on other units. If the routing unit inflicts some casualties on the way through, that would cause a morale penalty.
Spears are a defensive unit. They aren't supposed to kill a lot, but they are supposed to hold their ground for a long time.
Of course, if your flanking unit is itself flanked you loose. The smart player holds a cav in reserve just for this reason. This game is supposed to be about flanking. If you get flanked you should loose.
LongJohn stated recently on this board that balanced armies are not going to beat certain unbalanced armies. That is an intentional aspect of the game. If you want to beat the all cav army in the open field, a balanced army is not the best configuration for the job.
You could play at low florins so stop players taking all high powered units, but since there is so much routing in low florin games it becomes tedious trying to recover units which are running in all directions only to have them rout again and again before they even engage. I recently played some 5k games and they were ok, but you cannot push your units very hard. Since all the morale penalties are of a fixed magnitude they each have a relatively larger effect in low florin/low morale games. Routing the first unit is usually decisive at low morale.
A way so simulate 5k games with higher morale is using LongJohn's suggestion of requiring each player to use equal valor units. In that way, all the increased combat values cancel out and you're left with just the higher morale. You can do it with all v1 units at 8.5k for +2 morale, all v2 units at 15k for +4 morale or all v3 units at 25k for +6 morale (5k * 1.7 * 1.7 * 1.7 = 24.6k). Thanks goes to CBR for pointing out the florin calculation to achieve the different morale levels. The all cav knight armies disappear from the game, and cav's ability to rout unints with their charge is reduced.
One of the interesting consequences of doing this is that the cost of ranged units is effectively reduced relative to non-ranged units because their valor upgrade is cheaper. You could disallow or allow the cheap weapon and armor upgrades on ranged units depending on whether you view them as having a strictly ranged role or also a hand-to-hand role in the battle.
All the players who participated in the all valor 3 games enjoyed the gameplay.
so its all ok
cool, somehow many feel other.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
go and ask soem other, routing units effects ur fighting units.
I watched those replays where CBR beat cheetahs all cav army. Anyone can do that being in a small box formation. Especially if that person is in box formation before the game starts. If you're spread out much you'll have to many flanks to protect.
This is MTW and not STW so it's different and we just have to accept the changes.
I prefer the STW type of play, but that's never gonna happen.
Sad fact is that most likely nothing we say here will be used to improve MTW. Maybe it's better to shift the focus to RTW. I'd be a strong supporter of limiting the amount of diff troops in that game.
youssof_Toda,
There are going to be more units in RTW than MTW.
PuZZ,Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Not to tread on ur shoes or anything...FasT not know enuf as ur mind does or stores http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif But workin on it..
But routin units do effect moral of other troops FasT not know how much or how little but it does..im 99% sure..Maybe Devs could clear this up???
Anyway to ur other point about spears..IMO this is really the weak and the most disapointing thing in MTW..For 2 reasons..let me explain...
ok spears r a defensive unit,more of a holdin unit..ok thats kool..Problems though with these units..
Spears can hold MAA for a while in battle i guess but lose in time..Ok NP with this..
Spears r supposed to be a anticav unit rightNP with this but big problem.Yes big problems.
Most use them to protect flanks or hold middle...The problem we all see and know is that u can catch these cavs with spears but when u do they dont kill enuf..thats problem 1 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/cool.gif
2 problem is ur engaged with ur spear against the Knight etc...Wow my spears r killin um.(Knight)Not for long u retreat ur knights away with only a few loses,then u have options like attackin other side,reinforce weak spots or run around and get the rear of other spears or units.
The top players know this and others r learning fast i guess..
Spears need to kill cav fast thats a fact....
K back on topic about cav 1 line.........
Is it not possible to inflict a penalty on the amount of lines u use for cav's?.....
Knight IMO should be awesome killin machine's just not have the power against spears unless there reared or out of formation.......
in the end i would agree with youssof, teh mtw game is wasted. every night i have some batt;es none of them match with old shog mi, in epicness, excitment, funa nd whatever.
luckily some aspects are better worked out, but every day i see a shift towards certain type of armies and use of them.
40 different units is more then enuf
20 roman and 20 barbarian
My guess:Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
60% of units will be useless.
10% will be overpowered.
30% will be used.
Are they adopting the 'more-is-better' approach?
STW-->MI: more units, did the game get better?
MI-->MTW: more units, again did it get better?
MTW-->RTW: more units, will it get better? I sure hope so.
I don't want to be too cynical I saw a few screenshots and in fact I think they look great. My critisizm is that I got the idea they are jst adding units for the bulk so they can put 'over 200 different and unique troops' on the box when they sell the game and not because of the tactical usefullness of them.
Maybe a possible way is to move the units more into different categories. For instance: Heavy cav stats almost all the same for the different factions. Faction's X heavy cav gets a little more speed and a little less armour etc., etc. You can give em different names and get ur 'over 200 different and unique troops' on the box and we'll get our game.
Possible list of diff categories:
1. Heavy cav
2. Light cav
3. Arch cav
4. Heavy Inf
5. Medium Inf
6. Light Inf
7. Archers
8. Siege weapons
i think even the devs have said somewhere that single lines of units is unrealistic .. im sure they can limit it to say ranks of 3 ..
"LongJohn stated recently on this board that balanced armies are not going to beat certain unbalanced armies."
i would of loved to have been at this CA meeting did some investor say something like .."ok lets make it so, some armies have no chance against some others http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif, and therefore there is no point in playing the battle whatsoever" ??????
is this a new selling technique or something? its like arranging a football match where one side has no boots, would you go play??
baz, investors don't care about the game, it is about how many you sell, for how much and how much profit.
Many units in MTW are same stats with different cloths.
On the other hand, I do like the idea that some factions have specialize abilities. The problem was there was zero playtest in MP to finetune the balance of the armies and there is no mechanism to let the community make the stats evolve.
The argument that we must keep the same stat in MP and in SP is bogus. MP and SP, as known in STW and MTW are two different games, and players must treat it that way. There are constraints to the SP army that are not in the MP, so I don't see why MP shouldn't have different stat file.
As for the stat evolution, it is not difficult. Just have the MP menu a choice of stats (same as choice of map). Standard, community-approved stats could be made available for download. Just need to have a way to make it more "official".
All what I said could be obsolete because Rome:TW would have online campaign, right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
But even so, setting up single battles will remain a good "quick game" alternative. I hate having to commit a solid block of my time to start and finish a campaign.
Annie
its also funny where the devs show up. its so hard for me to support them again after VI. TW rome did look nice, and so do many games, this game needs real competition. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/redface.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif
i full agree with mag, here u need nearly no skills i have setups where i just doubleklick once and my army is winning.
all what i see is chaos and extrem weird routings, but there isnt real controlling, nether any good moves.
and cav in 1 line (not important wich cav) is extrem strong, the bonusses spoil this game in any direction.
i select my units doulbelklick and the enemy is dead, this can every new player do.
i win most of my games, but the way i win them dont makes me happy, as i dont need to move my units nicely nether i can build some traps, flanking is stupid....so always frontal attack where ur supporting cav decide it, if the charge hits ok, than u won......lol
im sure the worser player are happy, as they can "control" it now, its just easy, selecet unit and click somewhere......the cav kills it and rout it.....
koc
i know amp would agree too with his new version of the balanced army.
i cant believe most people see a future for thsi game in this way. we agreed to go sunday to MI. lets all pray VI brings what we want. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif