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Froggy...
I never change the formation of the units when I test them. You took the Cerls and Landsmenn and put them in 2 ranks, the most effective. But when you do that you run he 'risk' that some of them might or might not flank the spears. That is too much of a variation if they don't compared to if they do. Thus I find it much better test the units in vanilla form, there they will not flank.
Who knows, maybe your Landsmenn were better at getting around the flanks?
Great work frogbeastegg http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif
Congrats on an excellent guide, it is truly complete http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/read.gif And looong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif
That headache is now a migrane complete with flashing lights and nausia. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif
I shall have to give up on this statistics fest - I got up to the smiley in Ironside's post before my eyes crossed over. I have been trying to read it all day but I don't manage to get any further and then the formation testing with swords/axes comes back with a vengance. Of course the range issue is still open as well. I just don't have the time, energy or ability to sort all this out - I write and think in real terms not all those numbers and trying to force myself to do that takes a lot of time and effort, and the result is never quite right. It would take me months to sort out these 3 issues - months.
To me a charge bonus is what you get when your units wave their weapons above their heads and sound that little trumpet they carry before running for a few seconds, not a bunch of possibilites with different efficiencies as Ironside is trying to demonstrate. A range is what you get when you open fire, not a number in an editor so when you can open fire you are in range. If something opens fire before another unit type and does so consistantly in many, many battles regardless of who controls it and on flat terrain then to me that is a shorter range. And the idea of testing units in a formation that is not their best one is, to me, semi rediculous because testing under non-battlefield conditions is useless as it is based on something that will not happen. There is no point in testing something in idealised situations because things happen very differently in a proper battle, and in the end it is in battle that all this counts. Marching two units head on in their optimal formations does count (just) as a battle because that is what you do when you don't use subtle tactics. Of course all of this is useless for solving the three problems here.
This kind of stuff requires scientific style testing (ie with samples of at least 100 battles, proper notes and some real analysis with statistics etc) and I don't have the time to try and force my mind to work like that. I have a lot of other stuff to do, in addition to all that I have a web version of the beginner's guide to write that I didn't intend doing because the people who were supposed to be doing it have not contacted me in months even when I message them. Wonderful because I only know how to do basic HTML stuff that works on my hard drive, not the internet. I am beyond tired and that never helps my feeble number skills. Also being sick because of relatives force feeding me mince pies and other stuff that upsets my stomach doesn't help
For further proof of my non aptitude towards this kind of thing look at the one major thing that is missing from this guide, the one thing you would expect to see - a guide to how those unit statisics work. I give out the stats but nothing is said on what they mean or how they work. Suprised no one has mentioned that.
An appendix with ship stats I can do in several days with a lot of work in the editor finding stats and glaring at the numbers until they hold still for me to read. Scientifically testing ranges I can do with a couple of weeks of work. Scientifically testing axes/swords against armoured spears I can do with all the fancy things like mean medium and mode if you give me a month and a calculator. Er and a dictonary with a definition of medium and mode because I can never remember what those two are Finding out about the different types of charge and whether or not running is important to getting the full bonus I could do in a month maybe. I can't do all of them at once, especially not while sorting the other additions to this guide and the beginner's guide (which has sprung back to life when I thought it was finally dead), stumbling around with basic HTML webpages, and doing everything else I do - I am only one person and not some kind of oracle.
So I guess what I am trying to say is congratulations, you got me :waves white flag: I shall do the ships. Additions etc like Fragony's will still be sorted but issues like range can be argued amongst yourselves. I shall keep reading and if anyone manages to come up with a finalised and well proven theory that I can understand I shall include it, but at the moment this is so far above my head I can barely see it. Of course getting me to understand it is the hard part and I can't explain in a guide something I don't understand myself. The shield modifer thing was about my limit.
I will add that both the carls and landsmenn flanked equally and that the test was fair because both units behaved exactly the same but there are no figures etc to back that up so it is completely useless and a waste of time. I suppose I could bundle together a large pack of replays so others can see but I don't have the time. There is probably some number in the stats files that controls a units flanking potential etc. But basically in froggy speak they looked the same, deployed the same, fought the same, acted the same, flanked the same, therefore they are the same. If you zoomed out a little so you couldn't see the weapons you couldn't tell the difference between the carls and the landsmenn, so similar were their fighting styles and flanking. Axes killed more armoured spears in battle after battle and have done so since I got VI, therefore they are better at it or there is another use for swords against armoured spears that makes them fight more efficently. I haven't found a new tactic for the swords that makes them better than axes against armoured spears but then I don't know everything.
And that was as concise as always http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
Does the Green_generals command also give the AI green generals when one has died, or is it only the player that suffers a wet-behind-the-ears replacement? This will affect whether I use it or not: I like to play on a level playing field. Thanks for any information.
Most of the cheats and command lines affect both the AI and the player, green generals is one such command line. I shall add a note about that in the appendix.
Maybe Ironside had played the battle tutorial (voiced by the incomparable Sean Pertwee) which tells us to do exactly that - double-click to charge. Try the tutorial again and seeQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Yes, I remember that advice in the battle tutorial.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Sean Pertwee--
I noted his name in the game credits. The voice seemed somewhat familiar... I wondered if he was related to Jon Pertwee, who played (3rd) Dr. Who.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif
I know that everyone here wants to help Froggie produce the best possible guide, but I'm not sure she'll ever finish itQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
if everyone expects it to be absolutely "perfect" ("perfect" in the sense that it meets some high scientific or academic mark).
Usefulness and timeliness are more important than perfection.
When the guide is ready, I'll help put it into pdf and other formats to make it more accessible.
A belated Happy Yule to all
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/santa.gif
Ships added, cheat and command line section altered to say what affects the AI. If anyone knows what the ship stats stand for in more detail now is your chance to show off http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
According to some documentary I saw years ago on the making of Cadfael Sean Pertwee is the son of the one from Doctor Who. He was the original Hugh Barringah, undersheriff of Shropshire in Cadfael which is why the voice was nigglingly familiar to me. Cadfael was made in the Uk and shown on ITV, but it is available on DVD in America and not in the UK. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif I loved that series - medieval mystery solving with a monk and a lug in armour
Charging is a long, long debate that stretches waaaay back to the dark mists of the days after MTW was first released. Um, anyway trying to keep this short there was some investigation triggered by the fact there are 3 speeds for each unit, walking, running and charging but you could only order two speeds, meaning that one had to be automatic. The end result was that you order a march by single clicking, a run by double clicking and a charge is automatic when the unit is in range. Therefore the tutorial is either wrong or dumbing down, I used to double click to charge myself before I was convinced otherwise by the thing I read. I don't even remember which forum it was on, this one or .com. The records don't exactly go back that far on either forum and anyway several years worth of posts add up to a lot of searching I shall keep an eye out for where I got it from and if I find it I will post it. Until then proof is in the way units charge automatically when marched into range.
Hi Froggy et al,
The original 'you don't need to run to get charge bonus' hint that I saw came from a post in here from GilJaySmith, one of the CA devs. It was way back in the dim and distant past, and I have no idea what topic it was hidden in. But it was definitely there. It is at odds with what the tutorial suggests, but that is definitely how it is supposed to work.
Note to Froggy - Cadfael series one is scheduled for DVD release in the UK on 15/3/04, at a price of £11.99.
Cheers.
That is slowly pricking at my memory....I remember the post very slightly....but was that where I first saw it? It does sound about right, that must have been it. I shall hit the search function and try looking for GilJaySmith's old posts, doubt the archives go back that far but maybe....Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif Excellent news I had seen it appear on Amazon but at the significantly more expensive price of £29.99, down from £39.99. £11.99 sounds much more cash friendlyQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Hi Froggy,
That price was from Play (www.play.com), but DVDPlus are doing it for £11.87.
Cheers.
Konnichiwa,
Konnichiwa,
Everything regarding hand to hand combat relies on statistics. Meaning that the outcome of batch A can differ from batch B under the same conditions.
What I (think to) know about charge, based on what I saw and am told:
-it can be seen as an extra bonus killing. It lasts only a few moments.
-more momentum means more charge. Ukin=0.5 * m * v^2 where m is the mass of the moving kight and v its speed. More mass increases Ukin and thus charge, but v is more important as it's quadratic. The heavier and especially the faster an object is, the higher Ukin. Think of a bullet: it doesn't weigh much, but thanks to the very high speed it inflicts damage.
-What GilJay said, should be right. But I doubt you'll notice much extra killing.
-Longjohn2, another CA coder once said: charge is built up. You have to run for a few seconds to maximise it.
-units have 3 speeds: walk, run and charging (fast running).
-This game, just like STW WE, has autocharge. Which means that when a unit walks and is ordered to attack another unit, it will keep walking until it's at a certain distance. It starts charging then. This distance is set in the unit stat: engagement_treshold.
-There is no manual way to make a unit run at charging speed. It only does so when ordered to attack a unit and when within range.
-Cavalry has an engagement_treshold of 2,000. I recall that this was the maximum possible value in STW and I guess it still is in MTW.
-This distance isn't the optimum one, not when starting from walk anyway.
-The knightunit has to be running before the autocharge is triggered to obtain the best results. 2000 is about 0.5*lenght of a tile, make sure that the knight unit is running when the distance between target and him is a bit larger than that.
-Don't run around all the time as fatigue will kick in and that will decrease performance.
-Make sure that the path between the knight and target is clear: no other units (friend nor foe), no trees, no piles of bodies and don't issue new commands to the unit. Any bit of influence will decrease the momentum.
A bad executed charge kills only 1 at best, a good charge up to 10+ and instant rout (depending on what charges what).
Running isn't required to get charge, but doing so will likely give a better charge.
:Reads post, eyes glaze over. Re-reads several times carefully but eyes still glaze over: Ok if I am understanding this correctly the autocharge value is set in the stat files but is not exactly optimum. Therefore you don't quite reach full speed and full bonus if you leave it to autocharge. However if you run you lose formation slightly and therefore lose the flanking bonus you can usually pick up by staying in formation. That is unless you run and use hold formaiton to keep good formation until just before the charge hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
So a choice between 1)getting both full charge bonus and flanking attemps with a lot of micromanagement 2)Getting full charge bonus by running but losing your chance to get some men around the flanks due to men bunching together 3)getting some men around the flanks but not getting full charge bonus. Of course that assumes I understood all of that corrctly and combined it with the earlier posts on this subject without doing the proverbial 1+1=5.
As the smiley says: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif If I got that right then I get the 'pleasure' of rewriting parts of the beginner's guide to list all three options and their pros and cons. At least there was nothing about how to charge in this guide, only that you should charge a lot
And now my customary saying in situations like this: I hate statisics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/gc-yes.gif
Printable guide now available and other such hype. MS Word format, 105 pages, up to date for the 12th January, pictures all present and correct if a little fuzzy.
Now the PDF begins...:searches through thread to find out who offered to convert it: Ah yes, contacting Hajduk now.
I can convert your printable guides to PDFs as well if you need additional help with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Well Hadjuk has agreed to do this guide and I am not doing anything on it myself, but if you want to ask if he needs help you can do. He may welcome some help. The beginner's guide has no one wroking on it but does it really ned a PDF? It is very light on pictures after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Thanks for the offer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/ht_bow.gif
Where is it Where is it?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-party2.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
I stuck an advert in the front of the guide but forgot to duplicate it properly here. Ahem:
A printable version of this guide is now available in MS Word format. If you do not have Word then you can download this free Word reader to view the document. The guide is 105 pages long and has all the pictures etc present in this web guide, although some picture quality has been lost in the transition. Please note that the guide is correct and up to date as of 12th January 2004 and will not be updated at any point. This on line guide will remain the most current version. To get a copy follow this link and look for ‘printable unit guide.doc’ by frogbeastegg. Make sure you disable any download accelerators you may have before following the link or the link may not work correctly.
I should probably put this on the front page as well.
This might be a little late, but here is the relevent longjohn post on how charge works: Charge bonus
Thank you, that is a lot like the post I was thinking of, possibly even the post. Jousting fields - no wonder I didn't find it when searching
It sounds to me as if leaving the unit to charge on its own should be sufficient but the other methods of charging mentioned earlier in this topic still have uses. Is the enemy is close then run, if you have time to micromanage then run and use the formation switches, if you have space but little time just walk. No need to alter the beginner's guide then, all this is beyond beginner level and way into intermediate, or possibly advanced. Longjohn may be talking about modding when he says "Really you just have to do a lot of experimentation to get the effect you want" but I think that sums this up nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Achieving maximum charge effect is also an advanced issue, but it was discussed earlier in this thread so I did a time vs distance calculation on countercharging cavalry to see if they had enough time to get to maximum charge effect. The fastest cav have a top speed of 24 when charging, and most cav have top speed = 22 which is almost as high. The transition to this top speed is almost instantaneous. Since speed 6 = 1.68 meters/sec, speed 24 = 6.72 m/s. The proximity distance where cavalry will break into a charge is range 1500 = 30 meters, and you will have 1/2 that distance, 15 meters, against an equally fast countercharging unit to achieve full effect. For the fastest units in this game, that's 2.2 seconds. This is enough time for the unit to be considered as charging and thus get the charge bonus, but not quite enough to get the maximum impetus (momentum) that the can be achieved. If the impetus starts building up after the 1 or 2 seconds required to be considered charging, then these units won't have much impetus when they meet. I don't know when the impetus starts building up, and longjohn's post is ambiguous in that regard.
To my mind, what's really important about charging in mtw/vi v2.01 is getting a clean shot at the target unit with as many men as possible contacting enemy men immediately. I find that lots of micromanaging of units in multiplayer reduces my winning chances because other units get neglected and end up standing around doing nothing. Wide cav formation is good, but not if you clip an enemy unit and your charging unit stops moving forward. This isn't an issue in mtw v1.1 due to the swipe where apparently units were getting the charge bonus if the unit leader was running ahead without engaging. In v2.01, the unit leader stops and fights if any of his men engage which also makes disengaging more difficult.
frogbeastegg,
I did some charge tests online with Tosa last night. While this discussion of charge mechanics appears to be logical, there is still something we don't understand. The test showed without question that cav charging a stationary unit is much more effective when it enters the charge on the run rather than from a walk. The cav would appear to have enough time to maximumize the charge parameters from a walk, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Either that or there is an undocumented effect. So, double click or ctl-r at some point before your unit commences the charge is the preferred method for charging, and I guess that's what people have been saying based on their playing experiences.
Was it the same for infantry or haven't you tried them? So stats suggest one thing but it doesn't always work out like that in testing...logic would dictate (at least my logic) that the autocharge thing is set up so the unit starts to charge with more than enough time to get the full bonuses etc, and a little bit extra to spare so the charge is still reached against a unit rushing to meet yours. Setting up autocharge so it doesn't do its job seems more than a bit silly. However this is one of those numbery things and logic never enters numbery issues http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
It is at times like this I am glad I called the beginner's guide the beginner's guide If I just called it the MTW guide or something I would have to sort all this stuff out and include discriptions of all this charge malarky...fortunately I can just file it under advanced and refer people onwards to other sources with more understanding than me - let people collect their own headaches.
:hits SP to try a few tests again:
Well that was a bit inconclusive. Sometimes running made a big difference, most of the time it made no real difference on on one occasion it did far worse. Setup was feudal knights V2 against FMAA V2 steppes05, temporate, summer, normal. Of course that was against the AI and we all know how useful it is at standing still and dying when you want it to. The battle always cut off the instant the enemy routed so the charge was only lasting for about 2 seconds...if the battle had been a bit longer a more conclusive difference could have been visible. So all in all that wasn't worth much as proof for anything.
So what have we got when all this is totted up? Running makes a cav charge a bit (lot?) better? but not so much difference for infantry? or big difference for infantry? but walking and autocharging is better sometimes? and to get better benefit out of running before charging you need to hold formation and then switch shortly before impact? so it is a balance between results and micromanagement? but any differences are less likely to be seen in SP? and in the end it doesn't matter how fast you are going if you don't get a good shot at the enemy (certain). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-dizzy2.gif
Konnichiwa frogbeastegg san,
We haven't tried infantry yet. But my guess is that we won't see difference there because it moves much slower but has the same treshold. So it will have enough time (whether that is directly related or black box related) to build up max charge/impetus.
About treshold for cavalry: unless I'm looking at a modded Excel sheet, some cavalry have 1500 while others have 2000. There doesn't seem to be a relation between faster cavalry and higher treshold.
What blurs this tests, and about any test in TW games, is statistics. Run the same thing 10 times under exactely the same conditions and you'll see completely different results. Doing one or two tests and then making conclusions doesn't make rules set in stone. Doing these things under non standard conditions (fatigue, flanking, not flat maps, nearby friendly units giving morale support, different formations, AI sneakily doing different things and so on) only makes it harder to say something.
A charge executed by the books (if there is a way to do this) can result in 1 or 10+ kills. Yuuki and me have seen 1 kill by making the best charge, but most were 10++. Best was some 17 and instant rout while the knights lost nothing. I haven't seen such results when a standard charge is made. This is not to say that it's impossible, just less likely.
I would say that already running before the cavalry starts charging increases the chance to get a good charge.
This example may help illustrate how I think it may work:
0 secs charging 10% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 3
1 sec charging 30% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 5
2 secs charging 60% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 7
3 secs charging 100% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 10.
I expect that this would rather have a negative than a positive effect, as it counts as a command and disrupts the focus of charging, maybe not. Mantaining hold is a bad idea too. I think it could happen that the unit falls better on the flanks of the target. And that kills too. But it's quite some micromanagement and you may need all the time to manage the 15 other units.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
In SP, I am definitley likely to double-click cav for a charge and single-click infantry and rely on them to get the charge. Something about the distance cav charge at looks wrong, too short, and I asm pretty sure I get better results with cave if I double click.
Do they award a Pulitzer Prize for medieval guides?
Nice work, It was not only a help but a good read in many aspects. I have been absent from these forums and the game for almost a year now. In a way I am having to re-learn it.What is this hear of a viking invasion expansion? :)(like i said "absent for almost year")
Keep your swords sharpened and your minds sharp,
JS,
frogbeastegg,
The MP charge test was v0 chiv knights, v0 knights templar and v0 feudal knights all in 20x2 formation vs v0 cmaa in 15x4 except for the templar test where the cmaa were in 12x5. Two runs and two walks with the chiv, one each with the templar and one each with the feudal So the total number of charges is 4 running and 4 walking which is not a lot, and not enough to draw iron clad conclusions. However, the running cav was able to get 10+ charge kills each time and immediately rout the cmaa while the walking cav was not able to rout the cmaa during the charge. I wouldn't say there was a big difference on average in charge kills between running and walking into the charge. A rough estimate using the results of this test would be 12 kills for running and 8 kills for walking, but more tests would be required on a unit that didn't rout to get an accurate number. The converging pattern the cav takes seems to be the same whether running or walking into the charge, but I'll have to look at it again to be sure. I have the replay if you want to look at it.
I did see one thing in this test that appears conclusive. In every case, save one of the templar charges, the cmaa started out as impetuous morale, dropped to steady when the cav got within 3600 range and then dropped to uncertain when the cav commenced the charge at 1500. This negative effect on morale of cav charging inf was mentioned by longjohn, but I had never seen it in a test until now. V0 cmaa start with a morale of 4, vi v2.01 gives them +2 in MP and two flanks covered adds +4 which brings them to 10 which is enough for the unit to be impetuous. A drop from impetuous to uncertain would require a change of at least -10 morale, and I think the first drop at 3600 range is -4. It is possible to set up tests that accurately measure various morale effects, but they are quite laborous to conduct.
I would have read your guide, but so far I have not been able to successfully download it.
I just wrote a long reply and the dratted thing got deleted Excuse me while I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-furious3.gif Ahem, to type it all again.
TosaInu The infantry charging on hold formation was something Ironside said back on page 4.
Statistics always get in the way of a good test, anyone who says otherwise is a maths teacher
squippy Cav charge does look a bit short sometimes.
Rising_General Politza prize? I could change my title to 'award winning amphibian' instead of 'exploding amphibian'. I had to relearn Shogun after more than a years absence, an enjoyable process. I am sure I used to be better with no-dachi but I think my yari tactics are better.
Puzz3D sent you a PM with my email for that replay. I am sure you will find an error or two when you go through the guide, when you do let me know so I can fix it. Charging is not really mentioned in this guide except as something to do a lot, it is the beginner's guide with all the discussion on how to charge. Strangely in the 6 months it has been available this discussion never appeared.
I did a few tests just now chiv knights V0 against CMAA V0 same map etc as before. Only 2 instant routs out of 5 battles, one had more than 18/80casualties for the enemy. Not nearly enough to be conclusive but interesting enough.
"V0 cmaa start with a morale of 4, vi v2.01 gives them +2 in MP" multi-player stats are different? Is it possible to finagle a full list of the differences? It could explain a lot...
Lets see if I can sum this up neatly in a way everyone agrees with:
1.Charging is good.
2.You cannot order a charge, only walk and run. Charge is automatic.
3.Infantry can handle their own charge in all aspects, no need for running because they are slow enough to get full bonus from the autocharge.
4.Slow cav like katas will probably also reach full bonus without needing to run.
5.Medium speed cav can either run before the charge or not, it does help but not always.
6.Fast cav probably benefit most from running before the charge as they cover the preset charge distance faster and therefore have less time to build speed.
7.When in actual battle all this matters little, just do what you think you need to. Charging up hill is never that effective even if you run, walking to a flank attack is not fast enough to be effective. Use your brains and work to fit the situation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../ht_charge.gif
If the person who left a comment for me in the copy of one of my stories that ended up on the KOTOR unofficial website is reading this, well I found your comment on my guides and thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
Why do I get the feeling I probably missed something while retyping all this? If I did I will just have to add it later.