No Joke: GOLD Thursday, 9/9 P.D.T

That's a very interesting read crushinator and one that has a very plausible argument. I would have to agree that a pirate would be bound to be put off with regular updates. This to them means searching, and no doubt waiting, for a new hacked version of the update to become available. The pirate then has to wait longer than the paying customer to be able to play the updated game. As was said, convenience plays a major part in this.

I remember losing the manual with CD key for my Command and Conquer Generals game. Something I obviously only noticed when attempting to reinstall the game to a new computer. To get a replacement, I had to borrow a digital camera and take photos of the receipt (it was amazing that i still had this after so many months), CD and the game's box to send to EA's customer service branch. This processs took the best part of a month to get resolved. I can tell you I felt very inconvenienced and the temptation to try to obtain an illegal copy instead was high.

Regards

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Originally Posted by Díaz de Vivar

But I have no patience with people who have no patience...

IMO, it isn´t a convincing argument.

Here we are talking about RTW: publisher, magazines, webs are overwhelming us with this game for 2-3 years (screens, videos etc) and many people can´t wait. You have been stimulating the lions and now they are smelling the flesh blood you request patience...

A simultaneous release would cost money and non-simultaneous release (the situation here) will cost sales. It´s fair and simple. ~:)

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Couldn't care less what you think. This is not one of those issues where people can discuss it and come to a reasoned and moderate compromise. In my opinion it's the law. What's fair and simple is: don't steal. It's not our fault if you steal from us. We are not at fault if you want to be a thief. I can't make it any plainer than that.

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

Couldn't care less what you think. This is not one of those issues where people can discuss it and come to a reasoned and moderate compromise. In my opinion it's the law. What's fair and simple is: don't steal. It's not our fault if you steal from us. We are not at fault if you want to be a thief. I can't make it any plainer than that.

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so you are ok with people stealing your software.. as long as they acknowledge that is actually theft? and that they are a theif? ~:dizzy:

you dont mind about the massive amounts of lost revenue then?

edit: im not trying to stir aggression, or cause conflicts on these boards. Im just trying to understand the developers attitude to piracy better

Surely we, honest folk, are paying a premium for our software because of theiving gits who can't be arsed to pay out for a quality product.

That sucks.

IMHO the forum moderators should take note of those who confess to be using a warezed version of any of the Total War series and ban their account and IP! ~:mad:

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

Couldn't care less what you think. This is not one of those issues where people can discuss it and come to a reasoned and moderate compromise. In my opinion it's the law. What's fair and simple is: don't steal. It's not our fault if you steal from us. We are not at fault if you want to be a thief. I can't make it any plainer than that.

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Yes, here your argument is convincing. I agree: if i steal the game, i´m a thief. This isn´t my situation because i´ll buy the game.

However, and here is my question, what do you (devs and publishers) do to try to persuade these thieves to buy your games?. A simultaneous release is one solution. Ok, will cost money but you´ll gain customers and you´ll sell more games and people won´t complain about being a second class customer. I think that have a bandage over one´s eyes isn´t a good solution. ~:)

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Originally Posted by crushinator

personally i think the way forward is content delivery systems such as steam or stardock central. These are two example of companies who have taken a realistic look at the problem and are finding new ways to combat piracy.

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Totally agree with this, I have used both (HL2 phase 3 preload complete ~;p ) and for those of us on reasonable fast connections it really is the way forward... By making updates and expansions a normal part of a product rather than the all in one box approach you can squeeze our pirates by stopping them gaining access to the updates and expansions...

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Originally Posted by RTKLamorak

so you are ok with people stealing your software.. as long as they acknowledge that is actually theft? and that they are a theif? ~:dizzy:

you dont mind about the massive amounts of lost revenue then?

edit: im not trying to stir aggression, or cause conflicts on these boards. Im just trying to understand the developers attitude to piracy better

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This is all my personal attitude. The company's attitude is: if we find anyone distributing a pirate copy of the game, we will sue them to hell and back, and individuals will be dispatched to visit them with glaives and maces. In the words of Harry Harrison: "We could have sent an H-bomb through instead of me, so how about a little politeness, eh?"

"I couldn't care less" refers to people who want to argue the morality of it with me. They're wrong - end of story. Sure, we could spend money to make it harder to steal, but nothing's bulletproof, most copy protection systems are cracked within days of release, and if someone finds it "harder" to copy a game, that still means they've taken the decision to try to steal it. And the internet community does love to pride itself on its independence and frontier spirit - or if you're feeling uncharitable, the right to steal.

It isn't just games, of course. How many people have registered their shareware?

Stardock's games are small and Stardock has enough revenue streams that they can afford to self-publish. And good on them for it, too. I'm all in favour of digital distribution. But CA needs lots of money to develop a game and that comes from a publisher and then it's up to the publisher to choose the distribution method. And Rome is something like 2.5Gb. That's a big download. (Pirates: if you haven't started by now, you might not have it by the time it ships!) The hardcore might well be interested in that, but the chances are that Rome's potential market for grannies who want something in a box to give to their grandson this year is bigger than Stardock's entire digital market.

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

But I have no patience with people who have no patience...

I know the industry loses money because of downloads in situations like this, but the point remains, this is because *they* have decided to become thieves because they can't wait a few days to play what is, at the end of the day, just another game. Not because the industry is doing something 'wrong'. Because they WANT. WANT! WANT NOW! GIMME! NOW! NOW FOR ME!

You have to wait for some things in life. You have no automatic right to anything you want. You certainly aren't entitled to something *right now* just because you exist, it exists, and someone else has one. Stealing from us because you can't stand the thought of someone in America having something you don't - and which they paid for - is ridiculous.

If you can't learn that lesson then you don't learn the value of things - just how to avoid paying their cost.

And if people think like that, then they'll find a way to 'justify' being a thief no matter how far the industry bends over backwards in an attempt to relieve the 'pressure of opportunity'.

When the world becomes the Culture then this problem won't arise. Until then, feh.

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Yeap. I really don't understand how someone that has waited 1 year for a game can't get enough patiente to wait for two more weeks to buy the game!!! It's just childish!!! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

This is all my personal attitude. The company's attitude is: if we find anyone distributing a pirate copy of the game, we will sue them to hell and back, and individuals will be dispatched to visit them with glaives and maces.

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ah k, thanks for clarifying that.

With my crappy 56k connection its not worth trying to pirate the game(not that i would), much simpler (and quicker!) to part with my hard earned £25 and buy the game.

I get pretty weary of the "Gotta have it now before I wet my pants crowd" (you know, the RTS typse." However, I also recognize that if the delay in release is two weeks for one region vs. the next, those same folks are very likely to download it first. These are the instant gratification types, it is not about money, it is timing.

I loathe the current anti-piracy schemes, and I use no CD cracks, esp. with CA's titles. Why? Because I don't like having my registry updated on every boot following running one of these games (I notice that message...some others miss it.) I also don't like having to fiddle with CD's any more than I must. I've had MTW play a part in corrupting a machine badly enough to require a format--a dubious distinction that no other game can claim (on my systems.) At the same time, I don't pirate software, nor make it available for others to pirate. But I'm glad the no-CD hackers are out there.

I agree with CA that if you don't buy a copy of the game and instead download a version, that is theft. However, the argument that downloading it before you can buy it is theft (although you plan to and later DO purchase it) is pure bull$hit. If you don't buy it later, then, yep, it is theft.

Like Gil says, you cannot try to compromise and reason for downloading and stealing a Warez version. A thief is a thief, regardless of the pleas and motives behind the action. If someone enters your house and steals your belongings you wouldn't like it. Although technically not as intrusive and upsetting as having your house burgled, morally speaking, downloading and stealing software is no different.

However, I think crushinator's quoted passage really speaks volumes and offers interesting alternative ideas in tackling the issue of pirating software. The word convenience makes total sense to me as the majority of people that will play RTW will be law-abiding citizens that purchase the game. I for one have alwways been an avid hater of games that require to the CD to be in the CD-ROM drive to initiate them!!! Why??? CD's get old and worn and sometimes they do not run anymore... why o why make the game dependent on them to start? Surely the CD-key should be sufficient. Because of this major irritation I've often looked for no-CD cracks so I can run the software without the CD, and yet I am not a thief, nor a pirate.

Regards

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

However, the argument that downloading it before you can buy it is theft (although you plan to and later DO purchase it) is pure bull$hit. If you don't buy it later, then, yep, it is theft.

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Excuse me but no. It's theft before you buy it. It's theft with an apologetic, "Oops, sorry, I'm buying it now" after you've bought it.

Go try it in your local shop if you disagree. Tell them you don't want to pay for it now, but you certainly promise to pay for it later, and since your word is the word of a gentleman you see no reason why they shouldn't let you walk out with a copy right now.

If there is a "try before you buy" deal for a product, then that's one thing. The fact that you *think* there is a "try and then buy" deal is something completely different. Specifically, bull$hit.

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Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri

Yeap. I really don't understand how someone that has waited 1 year for a game can't get enough patiente to wait for two more weeks to buy the game!!! It's just childish!!! :rolleyes:

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During that year he can´t obtain (steal) the game because is impossible.

And clarifying something, i bought STW, Mongol Invasion, MTW (spanish and US. versions) and Viking (Spanish and UK versions). ~:)

agree with comments on no-cd cracks...... i have a 3 year old CD-RW drive that sounds like a turbine starting up whenever it is accessed, and also struggles to read discs consistently (i finally brought new one this week tho ~:) , was only thing in my new PC pc over 6 months old ;o ).

Is it actually legal to use no-cd cracks on fully paid for and licensed software?

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

You have to wait for some things in life. You have no automatic right to anything you want. You certainly aren't entitled to something *right now* just because you exist, it exists, and someone else has one. Stealing from us because you can't stand the thought of someone in America having something you don't - and which they paid for - is ridiculous.

If you can't learn that lesson then you don't learn the value of things - just how to avoid paying their cost.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by RTKLamorak

agree with comments on no-cd cracks...... i have a 3 year old CD-RW drive that sounds like a turbine starting up whenever it is accessed, and also struggles to read discs consistently (i finally brought new one this week tho ~:) , was only thing in my new PC pc over 6 months old ;o ).

Is it actually legal to use no-cd cracks on fully paid for and licensed software?

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Technically, no ;-) You're breaking the EULA that says you won't modify the software in any way. (In ye olden days modding was technically illegal too... but modern EULAs usually make explicit allowance for mods.)

However... skating lightly over the surface of this dodgy topic... I agree that damage to the physical medium of the CD after you've installed it is frustrating, and for that reason I personally have no problem with their use *in that circumstance only*. I also think that more games should take the Unreal Tournament approach of releasing an official no-CD patch six months down the line, and that publishers should replace damaged media at no cost.

However, as this wouldn't be a real Gil post without using the 'T' word, it's important to remember that using a no-cd crack so that two people can play a game at once when you only bought one copy is definitely theft.

whoever is in britain and cannot wait better pre-order the US version, i mean whats the difference anyway? ~;p

i doubt rome will arrive here anytime soon, just like the past releases of MTW, STW and their expansions it took an awful lot of time to be released here(UAE), so i just pre-ordered it online.

You can "If only..." and "But..." all you want to justify illegal downloading, but the bottom line is that people will break the law when there are no consequences to doing so and it is to their benefit. If a law cannot (or will not) be enforced, then people will break that law.

Also, try that "I'll buy it later" argument at a car dealer. I'm sure they'll understand. Yeah, I know, "but" software is different...

This discussion is going nowhere fast. :no:

Is this a discussion? oh...

Sounded like Thieves vs. Software Engineers to me, and we all know who has a leg to stand on.

(have been burned personally by software piracy)

I'd just like to ask if there is any official word on the UK release. I'm waiting to see how the final game turns out, but it's nice to know how long I'll have to wait after the American ginea pigs test it for me. Course that's a publisher thing rather than a dev thing, but no harm in asking, right? :looks hopeful:

I'd love to be in the crowd counting the days, I almost wish I'd never played that demo - no, I do wish I had never played that demo. This game should be everything I have been waiting for for over a decade, I should be excited ... I wish I was. Curse that demo!

Piracy? Hate it. No cd cracks? Never use them. I hate having to swap the discs and keep them handy, but somehow the very idea of a no cd crack feels wrong. I've never had a damaged disc in the tenish years I've been using them. Never. I take good care of my discs.

Likewise one could argue that the ' minimum specs to run this game ' claim on the box is a declaration and when these specs prove to be less than adequate, words like TRADE DESCRIPTION ACT and CONSUMER PROTECTION should spring to mind and the same applies when any bug stops the game from being played anywhere less than 100% perfect.

Remember swords can be double edged. I wouldn't know a CD crack from a builders' crack but maybe, just maybe if people got what they paid for then perhaps there would be less of this sort of thing.

It makes me angry to hear talk like this when I think of the pitiful after sales on offer.

.......Orda

I agree with Gil here an official nocd patch would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Jambo

However, I think crushinator's quoted passage really speaks volumes and offers interesting alternative ideas in tackling the issue of pirating software. The word convenience makes total sense to me as the majority of people that will play RTW will be law-abiding citizens that purchase the game. I for one have alwways been an avid hater of games that require to the CD to be in the CD-ROM drive to initiate them!!! Why??? CD's get old and worn and sometimes they do not run anymore... why o why make the game dependent on them to start? Surely the CD-key should be sufficient. Because of this major irritation I've often looked for no-CD cracks so I can run the software without the CD, and yet I am not a thief, nor a pirate.

Regards

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In regard to the CD's necessity to run the game, I can give you a sad example that happened to me a couple of years ago. And as a matter of fact with the MI CD. One day, I arrived home from work and decided to continue playing one of my Mongol Campaigns. I inserted the compulsory CD to start the game and when the reader began spinning I started hearing a strange scratching sound. I found it strange, but wasn't really concerned, and waited for the game to load. I waited 10 min!!! Then I stoped the game load with Task Manager and pressed the eject button. Result: a recently bought CD with a quarter of it's surface scratched!!! :bigcry:

Today, I always use a No-CD crack to play the game. But I've bought all the games...

Epilogue: Fortunatelly I could get a new CD by sending the old one to Electronic Arts explaining what happpened. But I stopped playing for 1 month!!! :sad:

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

Excuse me but no. It's theft before you buy it. It's theft with an apologetic, "Oops, sorry, I'm buying it now" after you've bought it.

Go try it in your local shop if you disagree. Tell them you don't want to pay for it now, but you certainly promise to pay for it later, and since your word is the word of a gentleman you see no reason why they shouldn't let you walk out with a copy right now.

If there is a "try before you buy" deal for a product, then that's one thing. The fact that you *think* there is a "try and then buy" deal is something completely different. Specifically, bull$hit.

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That is completely not what I said. Don't try putting words like that in my mouth. I said nothing about "try before I buy." I was addressing the lack of availability for some. Believe what you want, but theft is taking something with no intent of paying. Lawyers can write all sorts of things to screw the consumer (and they are quite good at it, look at any EULA), but that doesn't change the "is it right?" or "is it wrong?" decision. Legal does not equal ethical, nor does technically illegal necessary equal unethical.

You have just addressed the real fear of the software vendor...that a download will be used as a try before you buy. What is disturbing is that part of the concern is that someone might try it and not like it. Why should a company have the individual's money for providing a product they wish they had not bought? I realize that part of the concern is that some would play the download and never buy, and some would wait until the initial prices drop. I don't consider either ethical. The one that never intended to buy is the guy/gal that cheats no matter what. Another possibility is those RTS folks with really short attention spans. They get a few hours worth of entertainment, save a few dollars, and decide they don't need to buy. Again, I won't defend them. But your lumping of folks who are not out to defraud in the same category with those who are is convenient simplification and cover. When you start lumping folks this broadly, before long all customers are your enemy.

And for your info, I have returned some software to the store after attempting to use it and discovering it was so bugged as to be alpha or development code--and not patched to make it acceptable. Age of Sails II comes to mind. And yes, I got store credit for the return. My return was under the "fitness for use" and "fraudulent claims on the box" categories. Had to do the same thing with an early version of Madden many years ago. The managers quickly acquiesced in both cases, contrary to "policy" and the EULA -- what a joke that legal POS is. It is quite simply the difference between what is RIGHT and what is WRONG. I don't advocate returning (or failing to pay for) something because you don't like it--that is simply wrong. I do advocate doing so because it fails basic fitness for use criteria--that is right and sends a clear message to the creator/distributor/vendor.

The problem here is with an industry that can get away with shipping a broken product and tell a consumer that once they have broken the seal, they are stuck with it. (No, I'm not accusing CA of this, by a longshot.) Eventually, the customer has had enough and figures out a new way to play "the game" on better terms.

I've worked for a software developer who was geared to sell, sell, sell even though he was making his money off of annual license fees and failing to provide support. The software needed some overhauls to get it up to snuff for the users, but as long as the money was coming in he didn't care and was really starting to torque his customers. We had some considerable differences about this and other things...I had/have real ethical problems with his approach. He was a real caveat emptor kind of guy. No, he isn't Bill Gates, but he thinks like him.

I hate piracy of games. It only harms the PC gaming industry and encourages developers to go towards consoles instead.

CA have slaved away for the past few years to bring us this great game and it is only right that we fulfill our end of the bargain and pay for it proper. (think of us next time you collect your payslips guys)

There is no point in downloading a cracked-virus/hacked ridden version of the game because you have no patience to wait a week or two!

I mean how long have we waited for this? Some of us have been waiting for well over a year and a half, and quite frankly another two weeks is peanuts in comparison!!

The fate of all WAREZ gamers... :hanged::rifle::furious3:

As for CD swapping. Now I do not mind having a cd in the drive for the process of authentication when the game starts, but a full install option is something I like. Modern Hard drives are huge and people often have Gb's of space to spare... Plus its a lot more efficient to have as much running from the HD as possible.

I do not like cd swapping, but I do not like no-cd cracks either.

Besides isn't the DEMO the Try before you buy option??

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Originally Posted by The_Emperor

I hate piracy of games.

(snip a bunch of good points)

Besides isn't the DEMO the Try before you buy option??

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Yes, the demo is the free test drive. If you don't like it, don't buy the game. If you feel it doesn't provide enough to form an opinion, then wait for reviews from sources you trust. There is NO EXCUSE for downloading pirated software. It's just plain wrong, and frankly I find it amazing that anyone would argue otherwise.

Actually, to be perfectly honest, the majority of consumer products are not try before you buy. You don't get to try out your 28" Flat Screen TV, you don't get to try out a boardgame, you don't get to try out a DVD. Simply put, you have either got to go by word of mouth whether that be by a review or a friend who's already bought it, or you buy it and then attempt to return it.

In reality you are often better afforded with a computer game, as there's usually a demo and there will be countless reviews. That is assuming you have the will power to resist buying the product until after the first reviews start to appear.

Hello,

If there a week+ delay for the UK release does anyone know of a good mail order company that can ship outside the US as close to next day as possible?

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Originally Posted by The_Emperor

I do not like cd swapping, but I do not like no-cd cracks either.

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And pray tell, why? The no-cd crack just lets you run your legal copy without the CD in the drive. So you dislike something that makes your use of the software easier??? Hello???

It has other benefits, it also keeps the game from writing to the registry on the following boot--something that you would really hate if you understood the risk that involves. There is no real need for the CD in the drive, and there is no need for the game to be dicking with the registry and risking nasty corruptions. What the current anti-piracy system amounts to is software vendors treating all of their customers like thieves and causing their legal customers unwarranted trouble...hmmm...I see a theme developing... As an aside, have you ever noticed in MS Office that just about any search you type in "Help" will contain a link somewhere to fighting software piracy? And MS should worry since they charge twice as much for an "upgrade" each time, while providing less.

No matter what sort of anti-piracy scheme you develop, it will be cracked. What you really want to minimize piracy is for your customers to feel like they are getting a good bargain. That revolves around both convenience and a good product. The CD schemes in common use defy the convenience aspect.

I have no problems with the CA folks continuing to make a good profit off of these games, I very much want them to and will make my small investment/donation to the cause each time. I also detest true pirates. However, I don't see no CD-cracks as piracy, any more than I see gun owners as killers, or a guy drinking a beer as an alcoholic, or someone who happens to own a burner (that could be used for piracy) as a pirate...