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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
On the topic of the Ptolemies using local Egyptians in their army, I had posted this earlier in the "lost" thread in the Colosseum, the info is from the Encylopaedia Britannica...
-under Ptolemy IV
"Following the defection of one of Ptolemy's best commanders, Egypt's Syro-Palestinian territory, Coele Syria, was seriously threatened by Antiochus III, the Syrian Seleucid ruler. In 219, when the Seleucid ruler captured some of the coastal cities, Sosibius and the Ptolemaic court entered into delaying negotiations with the enemy, while the Ptolemaic army was reorganized and intensively drilled. So grave was the threat that for the first time under the Ptolemaic regime native Egyptians were enrolled into the infantry and cavalry and trained in phalanx tactics. In 218 the negotiations collapsed, and Antiochus renewed his advance, overrunning Ptolemy's forward defenses. In the spring of 217, however, Ptolemy's new army met the Seleucid forces near Raphia in southern Palestine, and with the help of the Egyptian phalanx Ptolemy was victorious. Although holding the initiative, the Egyptian king, on Sosibius' advice, negotiated a peace, and the Seleucid army withdrew from Coele Syria."
And under "The Ptolemies" on EB
"Native revolts in the south, which had been sporadic in the second half of the 3rd century, became serious and weakened the hold of the monarch on a vital part of the kingdom. These revolts, which produced native claimants to the kingship, are generally attributed to the native Egyptians' realization, after their contribution to the victory at Raphia, of their potential power."
Another interesting tidbit- after the revolts the Ptolemies began recieving their kingship in Thebes, the traditional seat of power of Egyptian royalty, rather than Alexandria.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
If what you say is true then the Ptolemies only ever pressed natives into the army when the situation was desperate and the Macedonian part of the army did not provide enough men...
As you say this only happened at a time of grave threat, and once it was over they soon regretted it with the ensuing rebellions.
it was the exception rather than the norm.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
I suspect, might be wrong but couldn't find anything else, that for the Seleucid Factions you are using these descriptions from Sharrukin:
Quote:
THE SELEUCID EMPIRE
LEVY PIKEMEN; Pantodapoi
PHALANX PIKEMEN; Phalangite
SILVER SHIELD PIKEMEN;Argyraspides-Faction Ptolemy, Seleucid, Macedon, Pontus
SILVER SHIELD LEGIONARIES;Thureophoroi; Faction-Ptolemy, Seluecid, Macedon
CATAPHRACTS; (GOOD IF WE CAN USE THE SAME UNITS WITH DIFFERENT FACTION) as Parthian Lance Cataphract (no bow) Selucid's copied these from Sarmato-Persians. Long spear, sword worn over the right shoulder. Muscled iron cuirass with metal (iron) pteruges, laminated tubular arm and leg armor (iron) covering the feet but not the hands, helmet (iron) with metal mask in the form of a bearded face (the helmet could also have hair carved on to its top). The helmet could be crested with a tuft of black hair. Leather gauntlets could be worn over hands. Horse was draped in full iron armor with a brown leather strap running along the spine. Belting, bridle and straps would be brown leather decorated with bronze or silver fittings. The sword sheath and belt could have iron or bronze fittings as designs.
COMPANION CAVALRY; Heterairoi Cavalry
SCYTHED CHARIOTS; The wood would be a greyish-brown, with bands of red ornamentation, edged in white. The horses would be armored with headpiece (iron), poitrail (chest armor) in iron, and a large saddle blanket of leather or cloth (red?). The headpiece was topped by a tufted of hair. Collar and leather straps would be red, perhaps with white decorations to match the chariot body. The single crewmen was dressed similar to a Companion cavalryman except would wear a normal bronze helmet (ie, without the face mask) and might wear pant under tunic. The cuirass might be scale. Clothing colors as for infantry phalanx.
Well, from my Greek sources I cannot find anything that can support most of these units:
In peace time and war time the seleucids had a Royal Guard that was made from both cavalry and infantry.
Part of the Royal guards Cavalry were the "Hetairoi" meaning Companions (same name as the original Macedons). Another part was a unit of Syrrians, Frygians and Lydians (cavalry). Both of them or just the second part were/was called "Vasiliki Ili"=Royal Squadron.
The foot soldiers of the Royal Guard were named like the original Macedons "Hypaspistai".
There were also city guards (Macedons, Cretans, Myssians and others).
In war time there were
HEAVY INFANTRY
--"Phalanx" or "Macedons" exactly like the Macedonian phalanx.
At first all the soldiers were of Macedonian origin, later they included asians still fighting in the Macedonian way.
--Heavy mercenaries (Greeks, Galatians and may be others)
LIGHT INFANTRY ("evzonoi" as a generic name)
--Peltasts
--Javelinmen
--Archers
--Slingers
Part of them were Thracians (peltasts), Agrianes (javelinmen), Cretans (archers), Cypriots (slingers). These ethnic names were also used as technical terms: saying "thracians" you were actually refering to "peltasts".
Another part was made of various citizens of the Empire from different nations, that were forming separate units and were fighting according to each one's military tradition.
HEAVY CAVALRY
--"Agema" or "Agemata" ("agemata" is the plural of "agema") If they were one unit they should be called "Agema", if more than one "Agemata". They were men of Macedonian or Thessalian origin.
--"Cataphractoi" (meaning cataphracts in greek). They were Greek and Galatian mercenaries.
--(probably) "Nyssaioi" from the country of Margiani in between Parthia and Bactria (could be Nyssians in english, I'm not sure)
LIGHT CAVALRY
--"Tarantinoi" horse-javelinmen, meaning from Taras=Tarentum in latin (they weren't always from Taras but they kept the name).
--Thracians (not sure what exactly)
--Horse archers from various nations of the Empire.
They also used "scythed chariots" and indian elephants.
They had various kinds of siege equipment, ballistas, stone-throwers and units of engineers.
When we are talking about Macedons in the Royal Guard, the phalanx and the heavy cavalry they were not always from Macedonian origin. They were "clerouchoi" meaning in Greek that they were given a piece of land, royal land in this case ("clerouchoi" is not a military term). This was the way for the Seleucids to attract Macedons but if they couldn't get enough, "clerouchoi" could be other Greeks, may be even aborigines.
I have information about the other successor states but I'm afraid it's contradicting what I've seen in the thread.
Do you think this info can help?
EDIT: "Scythed chariots" not Scythian
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Emperor
If what you say is true
See Polybius 5.65; they raised and trained a force of 20,000 native Egyptian phalangites.
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then the Ptolemies only ever pressed natives into the army when the situation was desperate and the Macedonian part of the army did not provide enough men...
As you say this only happened at a time of grave threat, and once it was over they soon regretted it with the ensuing rebellions.
it was the exception rather than the norm.
The point was that the Egyptians weren't so terrible and unreliable as to be completely useless. I'm sure the Ptolemies did regret their use after 217 BC, but I'd be extremely interested in any detailed and historical description of a Ptolemaic army's composition post-Raphia; to my knowledge one doesn't exist.
I don't see why it would be unreasonable to include an Egyptian phalanx unit for the Ptolemies, simply link them to one of the huge city buildings to reflect their late adoption. Their benefit would not be amazing stats, but a lower unit build cost and upkeep cost than the comparative Hellenic units availabe to the Ptolemies.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
Sounds like a good idea to me!
1. Egyptian Chariot Archers; yet to see proof they existed-Scythed chariots, yes but nothing on Chariot Archers.
The latest time that chariots of ANY kind were used in Egypt was in the Late Saitic Period (405BC-335BC).
In that period, they used heavy chariots pulled by 4 horses and with a driver and a archer (both armoured). No scythes or 3 men per chariot. In fact, even before, NEVER did the Egyptians used scythes or 3 men per chariot. Only two.
The only people I know that used 3 men per chariot were the Sea People and the Hitites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
3. Onagers of all types simply did not exist at all! 3rd century AD
What siege engines to replace them then? Small catapults?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
5.Peasants; if we can make one unit for all civilized factions and one for the barbarian factions we could free up a lot of slots.
Thinking about it.
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Originally Posted by sharrukin
6.one unit of Scythed Chariots for the Hellenic factions should do.
Nope. Only one heavy chariot for the Seleucids and one Noblemen javelin throwing for the Britons. There is no Historical evidence for any other nation to use them.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
I know that the Parthians had no onagers... all steppe people were horrible at seiging, except for the Mongols, who enslaved Chinese to do it for them.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Weren't ballista or scorpions a preamble to onagers? One fired large stones, but shorter distance than the onager was capable of, and also smaller, so they weren't as effective.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranika
Weren't ballista or scorpions a preamble to onagers? One fired large stones, but shorter distance than the onager was capable of, and also smaller, so they weren't as effective.
This is a website that might be of interest on this subject. Some of the Greek Catapults fired 60lb stones.
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSieg...egeEngines.htm
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
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We should definitely start working on the descriptions and actual unit info. PM me with an aim or MSN handle or an email address and we can get that cooridinated. Or we can start a Carthage topic here. Whichever you prefer.
I already added your contact to my MSN list and from Wednesday night I'm gonna be more time online (round of exams ending). Since the Carthage Worklist is just you, me and Aymar so far (though Aymar is working more on Iberia) we can deal with it with instant messenger. I think it is the best way you agree?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Tell you what, I can take it to a Classics prof and have him look at the Greek if you want a second opinion. I'm 100% sure that the word used can be translated as weapons/arms in Polybius.
No need then. If you are 100% sure I trust you.
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The Romans of Livy's time carried Gladius Hispanicus. If he read good primary accounts that described their (the Africans) arms, he would have said they were armed like Romans.
Yet he didn't... now you got me suspicious again... ~;)
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You're being a little harsh though. Livy is still a pretty good source. Livy also goes on about how great the 'flower of his[Hannibal's] infantry' was
Sure he did say that. If Hannibal's inf kicked his beloved allmighty romans many times in a row of course they must have had the 'flower power' within :grin:
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I don't think it's unreasonable to give them the last level of barracks. I like your argument though. So what would be the barrack levels of the units then?
I posted this before:
"My suggestions:
Town Militia --> Barracks
Iberian Caetrati & Lybian Spearmen --> Militia Barracks
Iberian Scutari & Liby-Phoenician/Poeni Infantry --> City Barracks
Elite African Infantry & Sacred Band Infantry* --> Army Barracks
*plus Awesome Temple of Baal or Astarte"
Pretty reasonable you agree?
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There's some Fabius Pictor around, even though he's a bit pro-roman (since he is a Roman, go figure).
Yeah I knew about Fabius Pictor, but I never knew his original work existed. I thought only Livy had access to it. But now imagine a 'bit pro-roman' source being 'reinterpreted' by a 'lil-more-than-a-bit pro-roman source'... :shifty:
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Dionysius of Halicarnassus, though a little later in time, uses sources now unavailable to us and was as professional or even more so than Polybius. His works are translated.
Great, I'll give it a look! Thx for the tip :thumbsup:
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There are a couple that write in the time of Scipio Aemilianus, pretty contemporary with Polybius. Lemme find them for ya. Can you read Ancient Greek?
Nope. But if you gimme their names I can probably find translations like I did for Polybius ~:wave:
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
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I already added your contact to my MSN list and from Wednesday night I'm gonna be more time online (round of exams ending). Since the Carthage Worklist is just you, me and Aymar so far (though Aymar is working more on Iberia) we can deal with it with instant messenger. I think it is the best way you agree?
I agree wholeheartedly.
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No need then. If you are 100% sure I trust you.
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Yet he didn't... now you got me suspicious again...
He did, the Latin that I quoted to you earlier was his. He use variations of arma (weapons).
[QUOTE]I posted this before:
"My suggestions:
Town Militia --> Barracks
Iberian Caetrati & Lybian Spearmen --> Militia Barracks
Iberian Scutari & Liby-Phoenician/Poeni Infantry --> City Barracks
Elite African Infantry & Sacred Band Infantry* --> Army Barracks
*plus Awesome Temple of Baal or Astarte"
Pretty reasonable you agree?QUOTE]
Good stuff. Maybe town militia should be some sort of phalanx unit a la Phoenician Citizen Infantry. With stats like militia hoplites. That'd be closer to the truth for Carthage.
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Yeah I knew about Fabius Pictor, but I never knew his original work existed. I thought only Livy had access to it.
No, there's some of his stuff around. He wrote in Greek though, and none of it has been translated, except into German and French.
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Nope. But if you gimme their names I can probably find translations like I did for Polybius
Well... you really can't. There are no English translations of any that I am aware of. I'll still dig up the names for you next time I hit the library.
Our biggest problem now is the missile unit tech tree. (I'm pretty sure we agree on cavalry). Most of Carthage's missile units were mercenaries...
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor
I suspect, might be wrong but couldn't find anything else, that for the Seleucid Factions you are using these descriptions from Sharrukin:
Well, from my Greek sources I cannot find anything that can support most of these units:
In peace time and war time the seleucids had a Royal Guard that was made from both cavalry and infantry.
Part of the Royal guards Cavalry were the "Hetairoi" meaning Companions (same name as the original Macedons). Another part was a unit of Syrrians, Frygians and Lydians (cavalry). Both of them or just the second part were/was called "Vasiliki Ili"=Royal Squadron.
The foot soldiers of the Royal Guard were named like the original Macedons "Hypaspistai".
There were also city guards (Macedons, Cretans, Myssians and others).
In war time there were
HEAVY INFANTRY
--"Phalanx" or "Macedons" exactly like the Macedonian phalanx.
At first all the soldiers were of Macedonian origin, later they included asians still fighting in the Macedonian way.
--Heavy mercenaries (Greeks, Galatians and may be others)
LIGHT INFANTRY ("evzonoi" as a generic name)
--Peltasts
--Javelinmen
--Archers
--Slingers
Part of them were Thracians (peltasts), Agrianes (javelinmen), Cretans (archers), Cypriots (slingers). These ethnic names were also used as technical terms: saying "thracians" you were actually refering to "peltasts".
Another part was made of various citizens of the Empire from different nations, that were forming separate units and were fighting according to each one's military tradition.
HEAVY CAVALRY
--"Agema" or "Agemata" ("agemata" is the plural of "agema") If they were one unit they should be called "Agema", if more than one "Agemata". They were men of Macedonian or Thessalian origin.
--"Cataphractoi" (meaning cataphracts in greek). They were Greek and Galatian mercenaries.
--(probably) "Nyssaioi" from the country of Margiani in between Parthia and Bactria (could be Nyssians in english, I'm not sure)
LIGHT CAVALRY
--"Tarantinoi" horse-javelinmen, meaning from Taras=Tarentum in latin (they weren't always from Taras but they kept the name).
--Thracians (not sure what exactly)
--Horse archers from various nations of the Empire.
They also used "scythed chariots" and indian elephants.
They had various kinds of siege equipment, ballistas, stone-throwers and units of engineers.
When we are talking about Macedons in the Royal Guard, the phalanx and the heavy cavalry they were not always from Macedonian origin. They were "clerouchoi" meaning in Greek that they were given a piece of land, royal land in this case ("clerouchoi" is not a military term). This was the way for the Seleucids to attract Macedons but if they couldn't get enough, "clerouchoi" could be other Greeks, may be even aborigines.
I have information about the other successor states but I'm afraid it's contradicting what I've seen in the thread.
Do you think this info can help?
EDIT: "Scythed chariots" not Scythian
Unless I need new glasses most of what you have posted DOES support exactly what I posted!
Basilikon Agema;"Both of them or just the second part were/was called "Vasiliki Ili"=Royal Squadron."
Agema Foot Guards;"In peace time and war time the seleucids had a Royal Guard that was made from both cavalry and infantry."
Heteroi Cavalry; This was the new name of Companion Cavalry not Agema Royal Guards.
Hypaspistai-Argyraspides;"In addition to the pezhetairoi existed an elite formation of hypaspistai or shieldbearers. These men can almost certainly be identified with the socalled argyraspides or silvershields from the later part of Alexander's reign." Hypapists is the older term for these troops.
"later they included asians still fighting in the Macedonian way." These were called Pantodopoi. Levy Greeks were later called this as well.
"--"Cataphractoi" (meaning cataphracts in greek). They were Greek and Galatian mercenaries." Eastern heavy cavalry not Galatian mercenaries.
"("evzonoi" as a generic name)" Euzonoi-This may have meant light infantry or it may have meant a Thuroephoroi acting in a Peltast style of fighting as the term Peltast becomes rarer after the Alexandrian period when Agrianian(not the ethnic definition) tends to replace the term.
"--(probably) "Nyssaioi" from the country of Margiani in between Parthia and Bactria (could be Nyssians in english, I'm not sure)" The book may be refering to the Nisean breed of horse and by extention a heavy cavalry unit?
"("clerouchoi" is not a military term)." This was land granted for the express purpose of raising a regional army reserve and the troops so raised were called Cleruch Cavalry and Cleruch Infantry. How this is not to be considered a military term escapes me.
You and the information you have can certainly be helpful; But maybe a little less quick on the draw!
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Maybe I can be of some help here ~D
What language is this? Basilikoi Illoi would be the Greek.
Quote:
"("clerouchoi" is not a military term)." This was land granted for the express purpose of raising a regional army reserve and the troops so raised were called Cleruch Cavalry and Cleruch Infantry. How this is not to be considered a military term escapes me.
Well, strictly speaking, Kleruchoi is not a military term at all. Kleros is a something drawn by lot, and echo is a verb meaning have. 'Having been aportioned by lot' is the strict meaning of Kleruchoi. In Ptolemaic Egypt or Selucid Syria it would mean that the men were given land by lot in reward for service. It was used in Athens for something entirely different.
Should be Hetairoi. Interestingly enough a Hetairos could also be a homosexual prostitute. 'Companion' is diverse in its meaning. ~:cool:
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Agema Foot Guards;"In peace time and war time the seleucids had a Royal Guard that was made from both cavalry and infantry."
He's right, it should be Agemata.
There is no 'C' in Greek. Kataphraktoi, please.
The Kataphraktoi were certainly not Gallatian. Greeks probably, but not Gallatians.
Generally means light infantry. It's a fine and all encompasing term. Worthy of note, there may not have been Thracians at all in the Selucid army. Anyone who was a peltast could have been called a Thracian, just as anyone who was an archer in the Cretan style could be called a Cretan Archer.
Quote:
"later they included asians still fighting in the Macedonian way." These were called Pantodopoi. Levy Greeks were later called this as well.
Perfectly correct. Pantodopoi is a great term. The Asiatic troops were never of good quality.
Nestor, if your sources are in Greek, I'd be delighted to sink my teeth into them. Are they online? If not, can you give me book titles?
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
You and the information you have can certainly be helpful; But maybe a little less quick on the draw!
Sorry about the impression I gave to you, it wasn't my intention :bow:
I shall try first to clarify what I have found about the Selucid army. Bear in mind that I am translating from Greek into English while Greek is my native language. I will give the names also in Greek so that you can search about them.
PART ONE
ROYAL GUARDS
--"Βασιλική Ίλη"=?"Royal Ala/Squadron, Vasiliki Ili" cavalry (cannot really translate this, sorry :embarassed: ). Greek Historians think that it is not certain if this name could specify only the Syrrians, Phrygians, Lydians in the royal guard cavalry or it is more generic and covers all of the cavalry in the royal guard, including "Hetairoi" cavalry. This was actually the use of the term before the campaigns of Alexander the Great.
--"Εταίροι"="Hetairoi" cavalry. This was the new name for part of the Royal .......(?) cavalry.
--"Υπασπισταί"="Hypaspistai" infantry. I cannot find the term "argyraspidai" (I would be grateful if you can guide me). I read that Alexander the Great in 326 BC received golden and silver coated "panoplies" for 25000 men. The "Hypaspistai" were just 2000 so they couldn't be the only ones that used them and I didn't find any mention of a new infantry unit using them.
PART TWO
CAVALRY
i) HEAVY CAVALRY
--"Αγήματα"="Agemata" of Macedonian or Thessalian origin
--"Κατάφρακτοι"="Kataphraktoi" (thanx URNAMMA :bow: ) Greeks and Galatians (I could easily forget about the Galatians ~;) )
--"Νυσαίοι" from Margiani. They were riding big horses. Greek Historians are not certain about them. (They were from the city "Νύσα" in Margiani. Their name and the name of their city looks suspiciously like "Διόνυσος"="Dionysus". In their tradition they were descendants of his army from the time the Greek god campaigned in Asia).
ii) LIGHT CAVALRY
--"Ταραντίνοι"="Tarantinoi" horse-javelinmen, not all of them actually from "Τάρας"="Taras"="Tarentum"
--"Ιπποτοξόται"="Hippotoxotai(?)"="Horse Archers" from various nations of the empire.
--"Θράκαι"="Thracians" probably "prodromoi" armed with a "sarissa". "Πρόδρομοι"="Prodromoi" was just a pronoun in Greek for the cavalry that was "in front" of the main cavalry forces.
PART THREE
INFANTRY
i) HEAVY INFANTRY
--"Φάλαγξ"="Phalanx" or "Μακεδόνες"="Macedons". It's a unit exactly like the "Φάλαγξ Πεζεταίρων"="Phalanx of Pezhetairoi" of Macedon (could it be "pezetairoi"? looks more like the Greek word) They were refering to them just with a shortened name ("Phalanx") or with the ethnic name ("Macedons").
--Mercenary "Οπλίται"="Hoplites" Greeks, Galatians and others (I can again forget I have ever read about Galatians ~D )
ii) LIGHT INFANTRY ("evzonoi")
--"Θράκαι"="Thracians"="Peltasts"
--"Κρήται"="Cretans"="Archers"
--"Αγριάναι"="Agrianes"="Javelinmen"
--"Κύπριοι"="Cypriots"="Slingers"
They were using the ethnic name to express the way they were fighting. Probably the original units where from those regions but they would still call the "Archers" in their army: "Cretans" even if they were from other regions.
PART FOUR
VARIOUS
--Indian elephants
--Scythed chariots ("Δρεπανηφόρα άρματα")
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Now, about some specific differences I see in the naming of some units, or misunderstandings (Please, don't burn me, it's just a discussion :bow: )
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
Agema Foot Guards
Didn't find anything about an "agema" on foot
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
Heteroi Cavalry; This was the new name of Companion Cavalry not Agema Royal Guards
Didn't find anything about "Agema Royal Guards". In my readings they are two different things: "agemata"=ordinary heavy cavalry made of Macedons and Thracians AND "Royal Guards" cavalry="Vasiliki or Basiliki Ili" if it was a generic term or "Royal Guards" cavalry="Vasiliki Ili"+"Hetairoi" if the term is specific.
"Companions" is just a translation of the word "Hetairoi", it doesn't exist in Greek.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
Hypaspistai-Argyraspides;"In addition to the pezhetairoi existed an elite formation of hypaspistai or shieldbearers. These men can almost certainly be identified with the socalled argyraspides or silvershields from the later part of Alexander's reign." Hypapists is the older term for these troops
I wrote a few things about them but I suspect that we have a misunderstanding because in Greek we can use the word "argyraspides" as a pronoun for "Hypaspistai". Then, we can shorten our phrase by using the same word as a noun if everybody knows who we are refering to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
"("clerouchoi" is not a military term)." This was land granted for the express purpose of raising a regional army reserve and the troops so raised were called Cleruch Cavalry and Cleruch Infantry. How this is not to be considered a military term escapes me.
"Clerouchoi" could be soldiers in the "Vasiliki Ili-Hetairoi" cavalry OR in the "Agemata" OR in the "Phalanx". I didn't say they are not in the army, I'm just saying that they are not a specific unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
What language is this? Basilikoi Illoi would be the Greek
Βασιλική Ίλη
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Should be Hetairoi. Interestingly enough a Hetairos could also be a homosexual prostitute. 'Companion' is diverse in its meaning
I think I wrote "Hetairoi" in the first place, but anyway, there's something else I would like to point out: "Hetaira" was an heterosexual prostitute much like a geisha in Japan. They were educated women. One of them was "Aspasia", the wife of Pericles, the leader of the Athenians in the Golden Era of Athens, when Acropolis was built ~;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
There is no 'C' in Greek. Kataphraktoi, please
There was actually a "c" in Greek. It was the "sigma". Originally they were writing it as "c", it was used by the Byzantines and you can still, rarely, find it in modern greek writing. "Kataphraktoi" looks much better though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Generally means light infantry. It's a fine and all encompasing term. Worthy of note, there may not have been Thracians at all in the Selucid army. Anyone who was a peltast could have been called a Thracian, just as anyone who was an archer in the Cretan style could be called a Cretan Archer.
No difference there. Could make the modificatition easier by using units that can exist in other factions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Perfectly correct. Pantodopoi is a great term. The Asiatic troops were never of good quality
Pantodapoi actually means "from everywhere". I didn't find the term, sorry. It's also a pronoun and this could again cause problems. I suspect the original phrase was "pantodapoi Hoplitai"=Hoplites from everywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Nestor, if your sources are in Greek, I'd be delighted to sink my teeth into them. Are they online? If not, can you give me book titles?
My sources are Greek History books about Alexander the Great and the successor states. They mostly use Arriano, Diodoro, Curtius and others trying to explain the inconsistencies. What I found on the Internet is just confusing.
No hard feelings I hope. I cannot oblige anyone to accept my suggestions and I wouldn't want to. They are posted here just because I find the forums more interesting than the game. ~:cheers:
EDIT: "Thureophoroi", soldiers using a shield that looks like a door ("Θύρα"-"Thura") The common use was to describe the roman legionaries. Noone would like the name for them, don't you think so? ~D
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Hey, Nestor!!! Care to join EB? :grin2:
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
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There was actually a "c" in Greek. It was the "sigma". Originally they were writing it as "c", it was used by the Byzantines and you can still, rarely, find it in modern greek writing. "Kataphraktoi" looks much better though!
Are you talking about the sigma within a word: σ ?
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"Clerouchoi" could be soldiers in the "Vasiliki Ili-Hetairoi" cavalry OR in the "Agemata" OR in the "Phalanx". I didn't say they are not in the army, I'm just saying that they are not a specific unit.
They don't have to be a specific unit, but usually the only people that got land for service were wealthy mercenaries that could afford a horse and the trip over to the eastern Successor States. They were almost exclusively a cavalry formation.
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I think I wrote "Hetairoi" in the first place, but anyway, there's something else I would like to point out: "Hetaira" was an heterosexual prostitute much like a geisha in Japan. They were educated women. One of them was "Aspasia", the wife of Pericles, the leader of the Athenians in the Golden Era of Athens, when Acropolis was built
Sharrukin mispelled it Heteroi. That would be a different term all together. 'The guys that are the same'
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Pantodapoi actually means "from everywhere". I didn't find the term, sorry. It's also a pronoun and this could again cause problems. I suspect the original phrase was "pantodapoi Hoplitai"=Hoplites from everywhere.
Pantodapoi could also mean 'Men from Everywhere' if used as a noun. Perhaps 'Pantodapoi Stratiotes': Soldiers from Everywhere. They were pikemen, remember, not necessarily hoplites.
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--"Φάλαγξ"="Phalanx" or "Μακεδόνες"="Macedons". It's a unit exactly like the "Φάλαγξ Πεζεταίρων"="Phalanx of Pezhetairoi" of Macedon (could it be "pezetairoi"? looks more like the Greek word) They were refering to them just with a shortened name ("Phalanx") or with the ethnic name ("Macedons").
Well, you have to remember that rough breathing indicates an 'h' when transliterated into English...
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--Mercenary "Οπλίται"="Hoplites" Greeks, Galatians and others (I can again forget I have ever read about Galatians )
Well, my problem with that is that the Galatians usually fought like any other Gauls, as a slashing sword armed infantry. They might have used a phalanx at some point, but were mostly hired to do what they did best. Slashing sword armed infantry are ever a bane of pikemen.
The Spanish showed this against the Swiss many a time.
Thank you! I was tired, I forgot that Βασιλική took feminine endings.
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My sources are Greek History books about Alexander the Great and the successor states. They mostly use Arriano, Diodoro, Curtius and others trying to explain the inconsistencies. What I found on the Internet is just confusing.
Ah, sweet. I have some Diodoros that I am reading right now. ~D
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No hard feelings I hope. I cannot oblige anyone to accept my suggestions and I wouldn't want to. They are posted here just because I find the forums more interesting than the game.
Your suggestions are great! It's always good to have more than one source of information. And yes, we are obliged to take suggestions that are historically correct!
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EDIT: "Thureophoroi", soldiers using a shield that looks like a door ("Θύρα"-"Thura") The common use was to describe the roman legionaries. Noone would like the name for them, don't you think so?
Well, you have to remember, in an ancient context that might not have been a derogatory name. Plenty of things are formed into words by combining descriptive terms, something that doesn't appeal to modern thought. In any case, Thurephoroi isn't a bad term for the soldiers in question.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
I found a web pag with several info about greek ,persian army
http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsar...ory/index.html
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
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Originally Posted by DeadRunner
Great link, DeadRunner!! :thumbsup:
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
thx m8
http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/Alexander.html
there is another with roman like to this one have some kind of army termology of greek and roman army´s
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
http://www.redrampant.com/
this one looks like nice and is roman
and have maps
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Aymar this is for you is about carthage
http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
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Originally Posted by DeadRunner
hey i ran across that one a little while ago. its a great site about Carthage.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Is it possible for a mod to reorganize this thread. I think now we have spirialed out covering all the armies units and has resulted in a rather helter skelter bunch of posts. On most php type boards I know mods have a split topic function perhaps now it might be best to generate a seperate Infos and Descriptions threads for each of the armies we have already adressed. I've got some other stuff I've worked up to post but rather then making this thread more disorganized I though I might as well broach the spliting subject first.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
Aymar is going to create a thread for each faction.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
That's a good idea. We may want to consider having the individual threads in the hidden forum, as well, for the specific work we are doing to be somewhat of a pleasant surprise to the public :)
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
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Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
Hey, Nestor!!! Care to join EB? :grin2:
I'm no modder but I would be honoured if I could help ~:)
Anything specific I can work on?
I have information about Macedons, Seleucids, Ptolemies, Greek cities and a bit more :book:
Oh, do you know about this site?
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/p...eco-Roman.html
Didn't check all of it's content, but has heaps of ancient historians' books (Diodorus, Plutarch, Livy, Polybius)
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
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Originally Posted by khelvan
That's a good idea. We may want to consider having the individual threads in the hidden forum, as well, for the specific work we are doing to be somewhat of a pleasant surprise to the public :)
OK. I was going to create them in the general EB forum, but that might be a good idea. But, then again, we don't want to keep the info too much of a surprise do we?
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
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Originally Posted by Nestor
I'm no modder but I would be honoured if I could help ~:)
Anything specific I can work on?
I have information about Macedons, Seleucids, Ptolemies, Greek cities and a bit more :book:
Great. I'll add you to the Factions and units - info and descriptions groups regarding Successor States and Aetolian League. Remember to coordinate info with the guys within the groups.
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Originally Posted by Nestor
:stunned: That is a HUGE resource to use!!! :surprised: It will be of enourmous value to the research. Awesome link!!! :thumbsup:
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
I've been using Perseus for years. It is a great site indeed.
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
I have found this page of picture maybe you guys can take for making models
http://www.aeroartinc.com/milmin.asp
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Re: Factions and units - info and descriptions
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Originally Posted by DeadRunner
Well, well, well!!! Beautifull site to use as reference for our new units!!! Excellent work, Deadrunner!!! :thumbsup:
