Pike & Musket TW ( XVI-XVII mod) in the RTW

In retrospect, Malachai MacDomnall Ui Machoran would be a good 'heroic' Irish commander. After assassinating his treasonous brother Aedhan, he led the defense of the Aran Islands and the Burren for many years, successfully defeating numerous uprisings, and English invasions, with vastly inferior forces and outdated weaponry and armor for much of that time, until the Spanish and French both gave him a large gift of rifles and swords (crafted in the Irish style, showing an amount of appreciation and respect for him) for his men.

Malachai MacDomnall Ui Machoran, (1564 - 1645, he actually sort of disappeared, he wandered off into the hills singing and no one saw him again)
Command; 5 (Malachai was a decent quality commander, but it was other attributes that made him a good leader)
Piety; 7 (Malachai was a deeply religious man, one of the reasons he grew to dislike his brother)
Loyalty; 4 (Malachai loved Ireland dearly, enough that it pushed him over the edge to learn that his brother was an English pawn)
Acumen; 5 (Malachai was a good mathematician, but not nearly as much as his brother, and he refused to use non-Irish systems of measurement for anything, so trade was badly slowed due to having to work things through the very...very unique 'Gaelan' system of measurements)
Dread; 4 (Much like Aedhan, Malachai was a terrifying figure, tall and imposing, and near merciless in the destruction of his enemies on the field, but was a truly honorable man to his prisoners, treating them well, and always doing his best to offer their master's reasonable ransoms)

Vice/Virtue;
chivalrous3; This should do the trick.

" Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States"

What is it with you guys and Papacy? Papacy is too weak in that period. Did Pope have the power to grant his followers an 'exotic unit'? Did he have the power to assign _important_ offices? Did anybody listen to the Pope in XV c. anymore? The last 'crusade' was well over 50 years ago, in Varna, and ended in disaster because nobody cared. The Pope only has as much power over HRE as they allowed it themselves...
Now, Imperial Court or Reichstag, did have actual power over the german states, and could do all these things. I don't think Brandenburg and Saxony should be in the same faction, their interests quickly became too conflicting - in 30 years war Saxony was allied with Sweden against the Empire, how do you want to represent that if all Electors become one faction?

Well, cegorach said that the papacy would be in for sure, so we give them some power.

And besides the rewards for accomplished missions can be changed I believe, so I dont see the problem

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Originally Posted by eadingas

" Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States"

What is it with you guys and Papacy? Papacy is too weak in that period. Did Pope have the power to grant his followers an 'exotic unit'? Did he have the power to assign _important_ offices? Did anybody listen to the Pope in XV c. anymore? The last 'crusade' was well over 50 years ago, in Varna, and ended in disaster because nobody cared. The Pope only has as much power over HRE as they allowed it themselves...
Now, Imperial Court or Reichstag, did have actual power over the german states, and could do all these things. I don't think Brandenburg and Saxony should be in the same faction, their interests quickly became too conflicting - in 30 years war Saxony was allied with Sweden against the Empire, how do you want to represent that if all Electors become one faction?

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As for the Pope, he doesn't have to be granting anything, as we can prevent him from giving any valuable gifts. The offices can also be altered so they won't change the gameplay at all.
I agree Pope had no real power then, but if I have to choose Pope or Reichstag, its the first one.
It's so because as I said before I think it's not quite sensible to make a couple of one-faction states with no chances of survival in conflict with some of their major neighbors. I really think it's much better to have a collective faction representing allied states, or states with common goals, foes, friends. If (because I myself don't know much about German history) Brandenburg and Saxony happened to be enemies at some point in the past, then one of them will have to be made rebel and the other would go to the Electoral States. I know it's kinda unfair for the faction which would be made rebel, but you have to remember we have only 21 faction slots. Adding one more german faction complicates the whole faction assigning situation quite a bit.

I don't remember if there were already decisions been made as to what are the possible factions here, as I think for RTW we have to rework the list a bit. So a list of factions I think are possible:

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. The Cossacks
12. Crimean Khanate
13. Switzerland
14. Denmark
15. Repubic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa
17. Hungary/Transilvania[/color]
18. Electoral States
19. Moldavia
20. Brandenburg
21. Portugal
22. Georgia
23. Persia
24. Scotland
25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name)
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc.
27. Knights Hospitallers

So these are my ideas, what are yours?
I'm hoping we can work this out together. It would be a step forward if we decided about faction-arrangement.

And I aslo want to say that I'm not sure if my ideas are always good, but I'm doing it so that we can have a point to discuss and come to some conclusions profitable for this mod.

Regards,
EC

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25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name)

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Fez maybe? The problem with that one is that despite the fact I researched it a good bit during the summer, I couldnt find any info before the XIX cent at all. And even those I couldnt read coz it was written in whatever Fez language is.

09. The Papacy
15. Republic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc.

Hmm, wouldn't that make a better Senate+Rome set, BTW?
And the Senate faction will always be 'wasted'. It's almost unplayable, only playable if you are willing to fight against the hard-coded disabilities this factions has... it's single-province in the vanilla game and it works well - as long as it's surrounded by allies (which Imperial Court or Reichstag - or Pope+Italians - would be)
And, as much as I like Ukraine and the Cossacks, should they get their own faction for the time period of this mod?... should be strong rebels... the Cossacks always rebelled and fought for independence, but were always too weak to grant it for themselves. There was never a 'free Ukraine' state except for short periods of bloody-quelled insurgencies...so it would be a bit of wishful thinking to give them that independence in the game...

Sorry for Spamming,

Heres my suggestion working on ECs list which Im quite happy with.

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. The Cossacks (make rebel)
12. Crimean Khanate
13. Switzerland (make rebel as well, with a BIG garrison army and low unrest)
14. Denmark
15. Repubic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa (make rebel)
17. Hungary/Transilvania[/color]
18. Electoral States
19. Moldavia
20. Brandenburg
21. Portugal
22. Georgia
23. Persia
24. Scotland
25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name) (make rebel)
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc. (either include with the POPE or rebel)
27. Knights Hospitallers

and a few more coz we are still over the top

Leave out Knights (talk about a weak, single-province state... but can rebels build fleet?) and Moldava (they never expanded on their own, only as protectorates of Turkey or Poland, so making them rebels is enough) and you're left with 20. Replace Crimeans (same thing as with Moldava - since 1478 they were never independent) with Saxony.

Sounds good to me, althoug I have to say I was expecting to see some vassal-relationship between Turkey-Crimea or Turkey-Moldavia. Ah, well...

On another note, remember the post about huguenotes I wrote?
I just thought that if we make a separate huguenote state (which I dont really think possible but hey!) we could make them vassals of both England and France so when war between England and France starts they have to choose.

If we didn't have the limit, Moldavia and Crimea would be a fine addition, but since we have to choose, I'm pretty sure they have to go. Crimea acted sometimes like a sovereign nation, but as soon as the Khan's actions started to go against Sultan's will, he was coming to Crimea, removing him and put another ruler without even as much as a symbolic fight. I don't think there is a way to represent this relation in game engine other than simply having Crimea as part of Ottomans, but maybe with separate units and buildings for that region?
As for the Huguenots... it would be fun to have them... but don't they appear too late in game to have their own faction from the beginning? It will be very hard to represent Reformation with the game engine as it is... other than through buildings and traits, we have no way of inducing rebels at a certain point in the game and who would want to build a building that gives him increased unrest?
(BTW, are Marian Reforms changed to Reformation for this mod, or to something else?)
(also, remember that at the time Hugenots didn't call themselves that. They used the name 'Reformees', and Hugenots was a derogatory name used by their enemies)

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(BTW, are Marian Reforms changed to Reformation for this mod

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I believe so, yes.

I think that, as we cant have them as a faction, we could just have a "Huguenot" hidden resource that would add up to unrest say +20, and besides make them very rebellious provinces.

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also, remember that at the time Hugenots didn't call themselves that. They used the name 'Reformees', and Hugenots was a derogatory name used by their enemies)

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~D Yeah, all i know about them comes from French and Irish sources, so.... Im inconsciously biased.

The Crimean Khanate will have to be in. It's not merely a one province faction like Saxony for that matter, but a three province state. It played a signifficant role in the wars of Russia, Poland and sometimes Turkey. Besides their army was very specific and original (they were the followers of the Golden Horde and the Mongol Empire) what cannot be said of Saxon army. If there are Cossacks included as a separate faction, and there is a discussion about Hugenots, I sincerely believe there can be no discussion whether or not to include Tatars. They could be a turkish protectorate tho. Just as the Cossacks are going to be a polish protectorate.

I'm not saying Saxony has to go, but all in all it was signifficantly less important than the Crimean Khanate.

I was wondering if Portugal has to be in - it was most of the time under spanish control. And I too think the Hospitallers should not be included, they were just insignifficant minor faction, and they could only occupy Rhodes as Malta is too small to make it a region in its own rights.

Moldavia is not a must as well, I agree it can be made rebel.

Well I just looked at SwordsMasters list and have to say I agree with his suggestions about Cossacks, Genoa, Switzerland, so we would be left with:

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. Crimean Khanate
12. Denmark
13. Repubic of Venice
14. Hungary/Transilvania
15. Electoral States
16. Saxony (ah well or any other suggestion: perhaps some collective italian faction like Electoral States is Germany, or any other)
17. Brandenburg
18. Portugal
19. Georgia
20. Persia
21. Scotland

And SwordsMaster, I don't consider this a spam - we're trying to work out a sensible and reasonable compromise here, hence we have to have a clear situation. A list makes things clear.

Regards,
EC

Ah! somehow I didn't notice Portugal on the list. You're right, Portugal doesn't have to be a faction, not in a game that concerns only Europe. Even as independent, it NEVER expanded or fought any wars in Europe or anything... this is why it had to expand through colonies. It can start as rebel - the Spanish didn't 'conquer' it (in game terms) until 1580. So we can have Crimea back this way.

oh, well, but I somehow consider Portugal more important than Saxony, as it was very closely linked to Spain in the diplomatic sense, marriages, treaties, civil wars, etc, but I guess if we need that free slot we could just give them a strong garrison and leave them rebel.

@EC, I meant Spamming as I poste 2 post with some 5 min difference in between.

The list I last posted makes it possible for both Portugal and Saxony to be in.

There are ofcourse other possibilities. I think if Cegorach reads this what we're now discussing, he wont like getting rid of Cossack faction. First of all they have never started a country. They were either hired to armies and then happy; or left alone which caused them making troubles, rebelling.

The Khmelnytsky Uprising wasn't the first, there were many more before, the situation that that one time it kinda worked out, I think can be compared to a situation in game where one of yours provines rebells and your eastern neighbor takes it few turns later as you're weakened by constant warfare...

I'm saying this now, because I'm leaving for 3 days tomorrow and wont be able to confront Cegorachs disapproval for the idea of making Cossack rebels.

It might be I'm going to come here again tonight, and perhaps with some fresh screens, but it's not sure yet so I may just as well not come.

See you around crew.

Regards,
EC

well, but IMHO, as a faction, cossacks are less important than Portugal, Saxony or any other "formal" faction. And we have to remember that we HAVE to choose.

@cegorach Is there anything else you need about spanish units? unit desc or something?

If you do, could you please post a list of thing that need to be done? As I said before I have no accounts of what I did and what I didn't prior to mid-October.

Please don't make the Cossacks a rebel faction. It is true that were not the largest or most powerful of the other nations in the mod, but in comparison to the Crimean khanate they were a more important force to be reckoned with. I mean what about Georgia, and Scotland, I mean were they really that important on their own? And the Knights too, I mean, how powerful or important were they?

I have been faithfully following this mod for a long time, although I haven't started posting in the forums until recently, specifically so I could play as the Ukraine/Cossacks, please please please don't make them a rebel faction.

Sorry, but that is all they ever were in that time period - rebels. Very strong, very nasty and surely a force to be reckoned with, but rebels nonetheless, not a 'state' or a 'faction' in any sense. An archetypal rebels, so to speak, as well as a solid source of mercenary force for both Poland and Russia...

rebels, yes, but so was scotland, more or less, and ireland, and the knights and the tartars

of all of them, the Cossacks were the most significant in Europe during that period.

The Cossacks certainly were a faction, they less organized and not very european in nature but yes they were a faction/nation. During the Thirty Years' War, and both before and after, many Western nations tried to form treaties and alliances with them. Although in smaller numbers, they fought in the 30YW, at first with the Catholics, and then with France. Ivan Sirko, one of the most famous of all cossacks even fought in the 30yw. Unlike scotland, or the tartars, this was a war they joined as a free nation, not as an at of rebellion, they weren't being pushed by other nations into joining either, it was a decision made by the cossacks for themselves.

True, they were not as sophisticated or as organized as most European nations/factions, however they were a faction/nation. They were just a very different one.

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Originally Posted by commieanarko1986

rebels, yes, but so was scotland, more or less, and ireland, and the knights and the tartars

of all of them, the Cossacks were the most significant in Europe during that period.

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Disagree. Ireland are included in the mod as rebels so no discrimination going on there. The knights were also a faction with some independent tradition at the time, nonetheless the lack of space means we cannot include them either.
Scotland was indeed a faction and a pretty important one. The kings of England actually descend from a scottish dinasty (I can be wrong here).

The cossacks DESERVE a place in the mod that is right and they were going to be included (as were the knights, etc) but there is no space available. Maybe after some sort of patch is released to allow more space we can have them in.

Of course western nations tried to ally with them, they were a blade under the russian belly, that was VERY useful to destabilize the russians and/or the tartars.

Why don't you make the Crimean Khanate the rebel faction instead? They were essentially puppets of the Turks with little real independance, even if they did start wars on their own. Besides, who was going out of their way to form alliances with the tatars, apart from the cossacks who were willing to accept just about anyone as an ally at the time. If a country wanted peace with the crimean khanate they had to get an alliance with the turks, not the crimean tartars.

Ok, now consider it objectively:
Who would you set as REBEL? A faction that is a remaining of the Mongol empire, mayb vassalized by the Turks, but an independent faction with different fighting stiles, etc...

Or a band of rebels and criminals who fled Russia, Poland and mixed themselves with the population in the area.Who build a fort in the river and fought the Tzar, the king of Poland and the Tatars because they wanted to recruit the cossacks into their armies. Did the cossacks have an administration? an official currency? Taxes?

Yet again, Im not saying they dont DESERVE to be in the mod, but just that if we have to choose, and we HAVE to choose, the cossacks are not the ones to get the slot.

Maybe If Cegorach considers that Saxony can be left out coz their weapons, etc is similar to the German states, the cossacks would get the slot.

Regards.
SM

I agree with all that SwordsMaster here said about the Cossacks. I don't think I need to remind everyone once again who the Cossacks really were and what are the arguments as not to include them as a faction. Instead what I want to say is that they have to be in this Mod anyway, but not as a faction, but as different regional units, rebel forces always present at the start of any campaign (as they were always there through out this mods time period) and probably as mercenaries. And in this way, they would resemble themselves much more accuratelly.

I'd like to have a go with them too commieanarko1986, but including them would mean getting rid of another faction. Only some german faction could be thought as a potential candidate to be out, but it'd better not be so. Georgia, although not particularly important from your point of view, was a country strong enough to withstand Ottoman campaigns and preserve its independence. This, and a fact the mod actually needs them (they will fights with the all mighty Ottomans, hence will balance their power and still not crush it) makes Georgia a player on our political map.

Regards,
EC

Factions

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. Crimean Khanate
12. Denmark
13. Republic of Venice
14. Hungary/Transylvania
15. Electoral States
16. Saxony
17. Brandenburg
18. Portugal - replaced with Cossacks,
19. Georgia
20. Persia
21. Scotland

My thoughts:

18. Portugal - slot replaced with Cossacks,

Portuagal really didn't matter much for the rest of europe, it was doomed to be quite isolated and expanded only overseas. It wasn't really possible for them to expand in the continental europe,unless they would defeat Spain somehow, which was far too difficult.
Cossacks are really different - it was one of key factions, even though semi-independent.
Its importance was recognised by many countries - Poland, Russia, Tatars, Turkey, HRE, Sweden and Hungary. Notice that Cossacks together with Tatars were able to mobilise huge forces and change the balance of force in eastern europe forever.
Actually Cossacks were much more important ground and naval power than Georgia or Brandenburg for most of this time ( 1480-1700), so I see no reason not to place them in this mod.

Second - I have spent A LOT OF TIME searching for sources and people who could help me with this mod, especially when it comes to units, and I found some.
The latest 'discovery' is Sad Ronin, and I actually proposed him to support this mod not any other, rival mod ( like Citadel TW) and I am not going change my mind when it comes to this.
He will present some of his ideas here later, I have seen some of these and found them more than interesting, certainly useful enough not to support the idea to remove the Cossacks from this mod.

19. Georgia

Pretty modest piece of information I have about this faction, but it is one of these 'key factions' so should be in the mod, I believe.

20. Persia

It will take some time to find something about it or someone who will do it - anyone from Iran here ?


Knights Hospitallier

Although small, one-province faction it was a very formidable naval power. I hope, however that rebel fleets could affect the game in similar way. Anyway we will have to make the Papacy quite powerful in the sea, and possibly give them Rhodes as well ( or for HRE, maybe).
I don't know if it is possible to implement, though.



The rest is rather all right, in my opinion.


and @eadingas

Moldavia DID expand on its own, around 1480 they were really quite important - most of my moldavian units come from this period, although they won't get their own slot.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~:)

You still need to get rid of one faction there though, game limit is 20. (excluding slaves, which HAVE to be slave and nothing else, or the game doesn't work)

You can't just take the rebel slot and give it to another faction. You do know that, don't you?

hmm, maybe as Persia doesnt have enough background to exist yet, we could give the Persian slot to the Cossacks.

Anyway, I strongly think Portugal was far more importand from the European point of view than the Cossacks.

Portugal was also campaigning in N.Africa, ruled the Spanish economy (most of the banks were owned by portuguese men), also it was an ally in the truglle with the Protestants and a REALLY strong naval power, thatis apart from their sheer income from trade overseas.

All the cossack material doesnt have to be lost, we can use most of it making the cossack rebels.

Anyway, I´ve gathered afew more images we could use in different informative scrolls and other random images, I´ll send them to you later.

Regards

Scotland should most definitely not be rebels, considering that the United Kingdom came about as a result of a Scottish king (King James) annexing England into a single kingdom with it, after becoming king of both Scotland and England.

The Irish should be rebel. I'd like to see it otherwise, but in all reason, given the limit, they did not have much effect (as a nation) outside of a very long war with England. However, they did have numerous secondary points, and I still think the Spanish/French should get an Irish ancillary, or possibly some Irish named commanders, or even Irish troops trainable in some regions, specifically in Leon and in Aquitane, where there were actual offices to sign up Irish immigrants into special units, maybe even just have a structure for them available in large/huge cities, or have a port required (since it was connected to ports, where the Irish were free to sign up upon disembarking, but not actually required, could also give a small pop growth boost)? Could even be the structure required to give commanders in the city aforementioned Irish ancillary. However, they're discussed here at length because of their unique military, and the fact that the Spanish and French hired so many of them, and held them in very high esteem (not actually unlike Cossacks, I should think), and that they may possibly, later, be added to the M:TW version, though that'd be far off. The Irish as a nation would really only matter as an enemy of England, and ally to France and Spain, but aside from those things, it was a major trade port, but it did not engage in wars in Europe as the Irish nation, it did that as mercenaries and soldiers in exile.

The Cossacks I'd be vaguely ambivalent about. They would be an interesting faction, but wouldn't top the list of factions I'd add. I would think maybe ditching Saxony might be viable though, and putting in Cossacks instead. However, I do think Portugal was pretty important, and more so than the Cossacks. I'd think dropping Saxony, since it'd be pretty much identical to Germany, would work. Persia I know waaay too little about in this period to offer an opinion.

Is it possible to make perhaps a patch or two versions for this mod, one with cossacks as rebels and one with portugal or saxony or something else as rebels?

Slaves... Ahrrrr

So we need a pool.

In my opinion Persia will have to go, but + what ?

Persia + Portugal,

Persia + Saxony,

Persia + Georgia ( Russia will have to guard its south more carefully)
or what else ?


@patch

This is a good idea. We could call it Georgia patch, Portugal patch or Saxony patch or whatever.
I am still not sure if it is easy to implement.


@Swordmaster

I did get it, thanks !



regards Cegorach/Hetman :book: