So this is the Seluecid unit? My questions are why isn't their entire shield silver, and why do they look so roman? (besides the fact the centurion is standing there)Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
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So this is the Seluecid unit? My questions are why isn't their entire shield silver, and why do they look so roman? (besides the fact the centurion is standing there)Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
How about archaeological evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince
'The find was significant in that we not only found three suits of incredibly well kept mail armor that was so tightly woven they had five and six rings inside a single ring, we also found what appear to be veils made of mail attached to ruined iron attic style helmets'
Journal for the dig twenty miles west of Antioch, 13th of June, 2002.
Romans adopted their mail armor from the celts. The Galatian tribes moved into asia minor, where mail armor spread like wildfire to the Greeks and Successors. This unit is the product of some exciting archaeological finds. There are paintings of Thureos shields like this that were either deep blue or crimson, and they had an exceedingly interesting silver medusa head in the center. The shield was probably covered with silver leaf in that area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangstaman590
They look 'roman' because they were a form of Thorakitai, which is an armored Thureophoroi. The Thureophoroi were a group that split off from the traditional peltast by having a larger and heavier (celtic style) thureos shield and carrying stabbing spears in addition to javelins. Thorakitai were often armored in mail or scale armor (depending on region). Their fighting style was entirely Greek, developed through time. Romans didn't fight in the classical way we think of them very much in 270 B.C. In fact, some still fought in a phalanx with bronze armor! They look 'Roman' because everyone assumes that only Romans could fight like that, which is not true. ~;)
Sorry for the off topicness, but DemonArchangel, how do you put a different name or whatever under your username, instead of "Junior Member" or whatnot. Where yours says "Your neighborhood antichrist". I looked in the user control panel but couldn't find anything.
Because it makes them look more like Shredder, a charter member of the Saturday Morning Cartoon Archvillain Hall of Fame, which can never be a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince
Assuming junior members can do this, you must go into your User CP (that's at the top-left, a little below the Guild picture) and select Edit Profile from the list of options on the left. Then change the title at the Custom User Title box. When you are satisfied with your new title, click Save Changes. However, I don't know if junior members can do that. If not, then just wait until you are a full member. ~:cheers:Quote:
Sorry for the off topicness, but DemonArchangel, how do you put a different name or whatever under your username, instead of "Junior Member" or whatnot. Where yours says "Your neighborhood antichrist". I looked in the user control panel but couldn't find anything.
Thank you kind sir.
Now that would be an Uber General unit- surrounded by warriors of the mighty Foot clan ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sheep
Well dis is bizzar, British Belgae? I thought Belgica was a province of Gaul (well not in the game but it was). Caesar even said this De bello Gallico, the first sentence: Omni Gallia divisa est in partes tres,... (I doubt that this is properly written but hey, I don't know de bello gallico by heart). If You want it to be reallistic make it a Gaul province or a rebel but not a British. I would make the unit Gallic too. Or you could make a new faction Belgae. But It territoritry would be so small the germans, British or Gauls would conquer it in no time...
BTW: caesar said too: Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae... (And yes, I do live in Belgium, :D)
The Belgae were a people. While there was a later province named in Gaul, the people spread to different areas. The unt will be available to the Britons, Gauls, and as a mercenary unit, to reflect the spread of the Belgae.
Ranika or Psycho can go into great detail about why we have chosen the Celtic units we have chosen.
~D Do not fear Gertgregoor. All is in order. There are three variants of the belgae. Gallic (Continental), Briton and rebel. There were several tribes of the belgae both in northern France, Belgium and Southern Holland ... as well as in South-Eastern Briton and even Ireland. The Rebs with be the generic belgae tribesman. The 'Gallic' version will be Belgae warrior elite on the mainland and will be able to be raised in that area by the Gaul (Aedui) faction if it controls the area. The Briton version the Belgae in southern Briton etc. In fact, the Briton faction will most probably be the Belgae Cassi. They will all be accurately depicted with the geographical variations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertgregoor
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Originally Posted by Urnamma
Wow, thanks for the history lesson. ~D I didn't know any of that stuff, thanks for filling me in.
http://img117.exs.cx/img117/42/17ry.jpg
What about this shield for the Sacred Band?
Wow that is unbelievable, I love the 3-D look!
Are you all sure that the Carthagians should still have the Sacred Band units? I mean, are they not a little historically inaccurate?
i'd need to see it in-game to really comment, but it's freaking amazing looking on it's own. wow. ~:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
The shield looks amazing but what is that rod above it? The shield still looks cool though ~:cool:
Well the shield looks amazing. Technically and visually it´s a master-piece, but I don´t think Sacred Band is an adequate unit for this time period. The Sacred Band (both infantry and cavalry) was annihilated by the Greeks from the city of Syracuse around 340 B.C. I don´t know of other references in history about another Carthaginian Sacred Band. ~:confused:
Well, firstly, there were two sacred bands. The Sacred Band of Baal is the one you're talking about, but heavy infantry exactly like them are mentioned many times after their 'destruction'. Perhaps the Carthaginians simply did not wish to tempt fate a second time?Quote:
Well the shield looks amazing. Technically and visually it´s a master-piece, but I don´t think Sacred Band is an adequate unit for this time period. The Sacred Band (both infantry and cavalry) was annihilated by the Greeks from the city of Syracuse around 340 B.C. I don´t know of other references in history about another Carthaginian Sacred Band.
The Sacred Band of Astarte, the cavalry, existed up until 170 B.C. or so, when Astarte's temple essentially went bankrupt. (Oddly, though Tanit took the roles of the Phoenician Astarte, Astarte (the name and the Goddess) take the role of Anath).
I only know mention of a "Sacred Band" from Plutarch that you must surely know, I was hoping that you could supply me some sources to prove your point (I crave to learn)... :bow:
"(At) the river Crimesus appeared to them again, and they could descry the
enemies passing over it, first with their formidable four-horse chariots
of war, and then ten thousand footmen bearing white shields, whom
they guessed to be all Carthaginians, from the splendour of their arms, and the slowness and order of their march And when now the troops of various other nations, flowing in behind them, began to throng for passage in a tumultuous and unruly manner (...) They, for their part, stoutly received and sustained his first onset; and having their bodies armed with breast-plates of iron, and helmets of brass on their heads, besides great bucklers to cover and secure them, they could easily repel the charge of the Greek spears."
(Disciplined, equiped with iron breastplates, brass helmets and large shields, which I´m presuming are of the hoplite "Aspis"-type) :book:
"It is said that, of ten thousand who lay dead after the fight, three thousand, at least, were Carthaginian citizens; a heavy loss and great grief to their countrymen; those that fell being men inferior to none among them as to birth, wealth, or reputation. Nor do their records mention that so many native Carthaginians were ever cut off before in any one battle."
(so these were pretty wealthy citizens, and there isn´t any mention of Carthage employing its best troops again in such numbers, at least in Plutarch´s lifetime) :book:
"The tent of Timoleon then presented a most glorious and magnificent appearance, being heaped up and hung round with every variety of spoils and military ornaments, among which there were a thousand breastplates of rare workmanship and beauty, and bucklers to the number of ten thousand."
(Again, there´s mention to iron breastplates of great beuty, sugesting an Elite fighting force) :book:
Assuming for the sake of argument, that they did indeed existed afterwards, they should be armed diferently as one may easly conclude from this text.
Doesn´t this forum have an edit option? ~:confused:
Just noticed something you said, about not tempting fate. Do you mean by not sending these troops into combat at all or just not calling it "Sacred"?
(would really apreciate those sources :thumbsup:)
As you know, sources come from different fields.
Much of the source material is archaeological (such as iron breasplates found with white enamel on them, making them gleam and shine). Also, several tablets and papyrus fragments (which were found in a jar by a Tunisian Berber while he was herding goats) have been found from 1990-2002.
One of these tablets is a temple account record for the temple of Astarte in Utica. (For all those of you who thought double entry book-keeping wasn't ancient, I assure you, it was used by Phoenicians) They list nearly a thousand sets of heavy cavalry equipment, including white enameled breastplates, lances, falcatae, etc.
As for the infantry, while there is no definitive proof that the 'Sacred Band' of Baal still exists (sort of, I'll get to this in a sec), there are mentions of units fighting in the same armor, with the same weapons, and in the same way. I think they might simply stop calling them the Sacred Band while the unit was still fighting.
As for the shields, the image comes from a coin, where Baal (the lion) is killing Jupiter (the bull).
Well have these finds been released on the web? Would really love to get my hands on some translations.
Regarding the shields, it´s stated in the text I posted, that the shields were white, so it would at least have a white background behind the embossed silver Lion and Bull.
As for the armour, it shouldn´t be a linothorax...iron breastpaltes of suberb quality should be used instead. And from what you said, cavalry should use them as well.
One final question (PITA...I know.... ~;) ), is there a final word on the type of phalanx it´s going to be? I assume they should be more of a "old" greek style than a mecedonian one, right?
(Don´t you just hate not being able to edit your posts? Especially when you find wrong spelling in your posts from writing in a hurry.... :furious3: )
Wonderful stuff! the Carthies are looking simply spectacular for this mod! I say leave the Sacred Band Infantry in, historical accuracy is great but there is a need for balance as well and I doubt they're going to come cheap. Besides, isn't EB's campaign supposed to begin around or before 300 BC? That's close enough for me to justify their presence.
sarcasm, us members can edit our posts to our heart's content. lowly junior members have to show the proper respect to the elders before you get the amenities. ahh, now i'm off to get my swedish artichoke bath.. sorry old sport, members only of course. cheerio!
edit: editted for added pretentiousness
There're three types of phalanxes that will be implemented in EB.
Iphikratean (underhand spears, one handed)
Macedonian (underhand spears, two handed)
Lacadaemonian (overhand spears, one handed)
The sb uses Iphikratean phalanx formation.
Currently, no. Our last testing date was 272 BCE. As you can see above, we only use units we can find historical justification to use. A common assumption that a unit was destroyed or eliminated, when evidence exists that it was not, is not enough for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spino
Excelent, i can't wait to use some over hand phalanxes. :duel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Sorry for the double post, but what is that thing above the shield?
Omg, can we have more screenies and less pointless posts. This is the screenies thread.
That's the model. You're looking at it from above so it looks weird. That's the guy's head and shoulders.Quote:
Sorry for the double post, but what is that thing above the shield?
Khelvan: Just because there isn´t a clear statement saying that a sort of unit has ended, it doesn´t mean it hasn´t. In this case, this group was annihilated, and was never formed again to the best of our knoledge. If there were in fact troops fighting in the same fashion, I´d like to see some sources on it (not talking about the cavalry), have you considered greek mercenaries being these units? they would fight in the same manner. Also the time period from when we actually hear about this Sacred Band, to the beginning of the game is around 75 years...in those times, several generations.
Big_John.... you elitist bastard! :toff:
*moving music* We should all join forces, in one big family, for the sake of the MOD ,nay for the greater good of the gaming community! *applause*
By the way, who do I have to kill to be a member?