-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
The U.S. is a secular government.
What has that got to do with the price of cheese ?
Bmolsson wrote But the law instituted by God must superseed US law since he is the protector of the constitution ? Or is Bush bigger than God ???
Since the pledge states "one nation under God " then Gods laws come first unless you want to change the pledge to "one nation just above God and Mexico but below Canada apart from the bit next to Canada"
You do not understand the U.S. legal system.
Quote:
Yes, the U.S. recognizes the right to revolution when the government no longer reflects the will of the governed. Despots have no right to governance.
That isn't what they said last week about Uzbeckistan is it . In fact they said completely the opposite ~;)
Papewaio's statement concerned U.S. citizen's rights vis-a-vis the Constitution. As far as self determination is concerned: the U.S. has traditionally been a supporter of the idea. Recall this was a basic tenet of the American Revolution and a bedrock principle of Wilsonian theory.
Try to add to the dialogue and not just throw bombs from your Island.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pindar
I'm not sure about your initial pronoun, but if your asking about the nature of law: no, law is not simply a question of force. Law is tied to the notion of authority. This authority is tied to the notion of legitimacy. Legitimacy is based upon representation. Thus, law and its enforceability is a byproduct of popular sovereignty.
Yes, the U.S. recognizes the right to revolution when the government no longer reflects the will of the governed. Despots have no right to governance.
Then why is the USA supporting Musharraf? By your definition, he has no right to governance and the Pakistani government is illegitimate. This means all the treaties the USA has signed with Pakistan are now null and void, right?
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
As far as self determination is concerned: the U.S. has traditionally been a supporter of the idea.
Not for the past 50 years it hasn't .
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
Then why is the USA supporting Musharraf? By your definition, he has no right to governance and the Pakistani government is illegitimate.
That is right.
The U.S. supports Musharraf because it is in our interest to do so. That interest is killing Islamo-fascists. This is parallel to the U.S. supporting Stalin in the 40's. At that time our interest was in killing Nazis.
Quote:
This means all the treaties the USA has signed with Pakistan are now null and void, right?
Nothing I wrote suggests the U.S. cannot sign anything with anyone. Musharraf is the head of Pakistan's government. This does not mean he is a legitimate head, simply that he holds power.
I explained before treaties exist for purposes of mutual interest.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pindar
Nothing I wrote suggests the U.S. cannot sign anything with anyone. Musharraf is the head of Pakistan's government. This does not mean he is a legitimate head, simply that he holds power.
So you and the US must then recognize the right of Islamofascists--Taleban included--to overthrow the Musharraf regime, right?
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
The U.S. supports Musharraf because it is in our interest to do so. That interest is killing Islamo-fascists.
Really ? I thought Musharraf was harbouring and supporting these Islamo-fascists , he even goes as far as having his army shoot at American troops when they a hunting these Islamo-fascists , not to mention his absolute refusal to tell you what WMD technology they have given to these people .
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
So you and the US must then recognize the right of Islamofascists--Taleban included--to overthrow the Musharraf regime, right?
Man, talk about straw men. ~:)
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
As far as self determination is concerned: the U.S. has traditionally been a supporter of the idea.
Not for the past 50 years it hasn't .
If you object to the U.S's opposition to the USSR and the spread of communism during the Cold War then we have very different value systems.
The general view of the U.S. in regards to the Third World, as expressed by Jean Kirkpatrick, was the U.S. could generally support an authoritarian state as opposed to a totalitarian state. The difference being the former, while contrary to democratic ideals, nonetheless may maintain a modicum of freedom through its economic policy and this might develop into a free society. The latter, where government control seemed omnipresent, was more likely to remain stagnant and bound to its Kremlin masters.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
So you and the US must then recognize the right of Islamofascists--Taleban included--to overthrow the Musharraf regime, right?
This doesn't follow from what I wrote.
Dictatorial systems do not have an implicit right to govern.
Hurin, are you just being a contrary because your anti-Americanism demands it or are you really this confused?
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
The U.S. supports Musharraf because it is in our interest to do so. That interest is killing Islamo-fascists.
Really ? I thought Musharraf was harbouring and supporting these Islamo-fascists , he even goes as far as having his army shoot at American troops when they a hunting these Islamo-fascists , not to mention his absolute refusal to tell you what WMD technology they have given to these people .
Fighting the Taliban and their ilk would be much more difficult without Pakistan's help.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
So peoples have the right to self determination as long as they don't choose a political system that you don't like .
Nice words Pindar , "May maintain a modicum of freedom" "might develop into a free society" .
Would you like to throw in a few ifs , buts , possiblies or once in a blue moon into it aswell ?
Fighting the Taliban and their ilk would be much more difficult without Pakistan's help.
Fighting the Taliban and their ilk would be a lot easier if there wasn't an occupation of Iraq to contend with .
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
So peoples have the right to self determination as long as they don't choose a political system that you don't like .
My likes or dislikes are not part of the equation.
Quote:
Nice words Pindar , "May maintain a modicum of freedom" "might develop into a free society" .
Would you like to throw in a few ifs , buts , possiblies or once in a blue moon into it aswell ?
How the Cold War would end was not clear. What I described was the U.S. posture as the time. It was based on a general belief that is also being followed with China at present. There are no guarantees either then or now.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pindar
This doesn't follow from what I wrote.
Dictatorial systems do not have an implicit right to govern.
Hurin, are you just being a contrary because your anti-Americanism demands it or are you really this confused?
Again with the ad hominem argumentation-- not particularly becoming, I must say. You keep expressing your own opinions as if they were incontrovertible facts (e.g. Post 102: "My likes or dislikes are not part of the equation"). Of course your likes and dislikes are part of the equation. You dislike any form of government that is not democratic. Fine, so do I. But don't pretend that your radical stance on sovereignity is shared by everyone. Other people believe in international law-- international lawyers included. You are an international lawyer and know much more about this than most posters here, so you have almost everybody at a disadvantage; yet you never give the other side of the argument, nor do you help others to understand the issues by acknowledging that your opinions are not shared by many other experts. That is at best pusillanimous and at worst intellectually dishonest. By noting some of the unpleasant consequences of such a radical view on national sovereignty, I'm just trying to point out to others who are interested in these issues that there are major differences of opinion, even amongst the experts. How about acknowledging those?
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
But don't pretend that your radical stance on sovereignity is shared by everyone.
I fail to see how Pindar’s views on sovereignty are radical. The USA is a sovereign nation. It behaves like a sovereign nation. The US government is beholden to no one but the will of the American people.
How is this radical in this day and age? I'll grant you it was a radical idea in 1776. If it is now then color me radical too.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Yeah, me too. No offense Hurin, but I've never heard you argue when I've defended the French from my Conservative cohorts by saying "The French need to and should do whatever they believe is right for them". Is it your argument that I should change that to "The French need to and should do whatever others believe is right for the International Community, regardless of the consequences for the French" ? I was making the exact same sovereignty argument that Pindar is here.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Being the legal justification was the breach of a ceasefire, I searched for this and came up with this passage.
Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by CASI
As it stands, then, the Security Council has not identified Iraq as in
material breach of the ceasefire resolution for its current failure to
comply with the weapons inspectorate: therefore, there are no grounds for
considering the ceasefire agreement as terminated or suspended.
Therefore if IRAQ did not breach it's conditions of a "Ceasefire", as under the Hague Convention, and which has since been proven as no "WMD" has been found in Iraq. Therefore the war against Iraq would be illegal.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwitt
Being the legal justification was the breach of a ceasefire, I searched for this and came up with this passage.
Discussion
Therefore if IRAQ did not breach it's conditions of a "Ceasefire", as under the Hague Convention, and which has since been proven as no "WMD" has been found in Iraq. Therefore the war against Iraq would be
illegal.
I only browsed through the discussion however its a nice read - however it discusses the concept of "material breach"
the wording in the Hague states
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm
Quote:
Art. 40.
Any serious violation of the armistice by one of the parties gives the other party the right of denouncing it, and even, in cases of urgency, of recommencing hostilities immediately.
In other words there is a difference in the meaning between the words used in the Hague Convention of 1907 (my mistake I stated initially 1903) and what the author stated in the discussion you linked. If I was a lawyer I might understand the legal difference between 'material breach" and "serious violation" - but since I am not - I can only assume that its two different definations and a "serious violation" requires a lesser defination then "material breach"
However it seems that the author failed to notice this little Article in the Convention.
Quote:
Art. 36.
An armistice suspends military operations by mutual agreement between the belligerent parties. If its duration is not defined, the belligerent parties may resume operations at any time, provided always that the enemy is warned within the time agreed upon, in accordance with the terms of the armistice.
You can not argue that the United States and Great Britian did not provide amble warning that if certain conditions were not meet - the invasion would happen.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
... if certain conditions were not meet
Was One of these conditions that it hand over all documentation regarding it's WMD. - It did - Volumes of the stuff if I remember.
Was another that it let inspectors in to prove these documents regarding it's WMD - It did - let them in and they did not find any.
What conditions did it not meet ?
Certainly the WMD argument has been proven false now.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
What I described was the U.S. posture as the time.
Which doesn't fit at all with a "tradition of supporting self determination" does it ? Or were you talking about an ancient tradition ~;)
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Was One of these conditions that it hand over all documentation regarding it's WMD. - It did - Volumes of the stuff if I remember.
And it was proven to be half truths and lies and much of what was required was missing. Once more if he destroyed WMDs that we knew he had he had to show proof of this. He never did so.
Quote:
Was another that it let inspectors in to prove these documents regarding it's WMD - It did - let them in and they did not find any.
Again they found the documents insufficient.
Quote:
Certainly the WMD argument has been proven false now.
Its been proven a likely theory it has not been proven false as of yet.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Its been proven a likely theory it has not been proven false as of yet.
proven likely that there are WMD or aren't WMD ?
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
proven likely that there are WMD or aren't WMD ?
Its been proven or should I say theorised that the most likely scenario was he secretly destroyed most of them. Which I might add is a violation of the agreements he signed.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwitt
Was One of these conditions that it hand over all documentation regarding it's WMD. - It did - Volumes of the stuff if I remember.
Yes Iraq did turn over volumnes of material - however it did not meet the conditions of the ceasefire agreement.
Quote:
Was another that it let inspectors in to prove these documents regarding it's WMD - It did - let them in and they did not find any.
What conditions did it not meet ?
Certainly the WMD argument has been proven false now.
The resolution that was based upon the initial cease fire agreement.
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUT...df?OpenElement
This link provides all of the initial cease fire conditions. Notice where Iraq was suppose to account for all Kuwaiti citizens and property that was seized. And several other conditions that were never fulfilled by Iraq or were violated during the 12 years before the invasion. To include if I remember correctly the use of WMD on their own population. President Bush '41 should of went back to war in 1992 when Iraq violated the ceasefire - however he was politicial weak in his resolve to do so.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Considering Saddam may have delegated this "destruction" function to subordinates, and then onto further subordinates and then to possibly illiterate subordinates to carry out. How can all these be adequately documented, if some were destroyed by illiterate soldiers.
I think the US was simply looking for an excuse to invade (for the reasons I outlined earlier), and I am sure it knew that some of the destruction of weapons would be carried out by unqualified people, whom Saddam would have no way of verifying their actions. It was virtually a third world country and the problems associated with those types of countries
This may have explained why the documentation was inadequate.
Still no WMD have since been found. No justification for war and the killing of 100,000's of people (and more than 1,000 "Coalition" Troops) on a technicality.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Still no WMD have since been found. No justification for war and the killing of 100,000's of people (and more than 1000 "Coalition" Troops) on a technicality.
I think the people of Iraq would hardly agree with you here. Once more he violated the ceasefire agreement. Thats all the justification we needed. That was no technicality.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Killing people, which war is, is decision that should not be reached lightly. The WMD was a filmsy reason and the evidence to date has proven that.
Had they gone and said, we want to do a "regime change", so we can ensure the oil is sold in US dollars not Euros, I think the support will be even less so.
I saw an item on "Oprah" whereby 4 million Congolese people have been killed in a period of a few years and I am sure there are other countries where horrendous actions are occurring now. Most Iraqi citizen's would have supported a "regime change" argument as would these other countries.
However, as we are discussing the legality of the war, not the motivations and possible outcomes. It was the WMD issue that was given as the basis of the war and these have been proved unfounded. It's been nearly 2 years since the war started and with US troops all over the country and no WMDs have been found.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
It was the WMD issue that was given as the basis of the war and these have been proved unfounded.
Not this again. That was only one reason of many. The fact that most of the others have been proven true is totaly irrelevant to you I know.
Quote:
However, as we are discussing the legality of the war
If its illegal why havent we been brought up on charges? ~;)
Quote:
It's been nearly 2 years since the war started and with US troops all over the country and no WMDs have been found.
Wrong a few were found. In fact the Dufullier (sp)report said it was even worse and more dangerous than we thought. Another fact you people like to ignore.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
If its illegal why havent we been brought up on charges? ~;)
Could it be because the US did not join the International Court of Justice and ratify it in Congress.
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
Quote:
Could it be because the US did not join the International Court of Justice and ratify it in Congress.
No. What would that have to do with an international body bring us up on charges like they did with Milosovich?
-
Re: How was the Iraq War illegal?
The US world face charges as indicated here if it joined.
"America is a superpower, which can evidently do what it pleases, and it can withdraw from the war in Iraq whenever it wants."
