Re: If it's not one thing, it's another...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Do they? I'd be interested in seeing data comparing the amount of injuries from gun accidents vs knives and other pointy household objects.
Here is one
Deaths Due to Unintentional Injuries, 2000 (Estimates) (Chart compiled by GunCite. Source of data, except as noted, National Safety Council, Injury Facts, 2001 Edition, pp. 8-9, 84)
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvacci.html
Some interesting data from the FBI
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/...nmurder03.html
An essay on the subject - pay close attention to the wording because it seperates legally owned guns from those that were gained by illegal means for other criminal activities.
http://www.gac.20m.com/facts_you_can_use.htm
Quote:
Status Street Crime Gun Crimes Drug Abuse
No guns owned ------- 24 ----- 1 ------- 15
"Illegal" guns only ---- 74 -------24 ------ 14
Guns Legally Owned - --14 -------- 0 ------ 13
Note: these figures represent the percentage of each category's involvement in street crime, gun crimes and drug abuse.
The Dept. of Justice concluded that boys who owned guns legally were less likely to become involved with criminal activity, when compared to either boys who owned illegal guns or even boys who owned no guns, in part because of the different ways in which they were "socializ[ed] into gun ownership" and the fact they typically had "fathers who own guns for sport and hunting."
[source: "Urban Delinquency and Substance Abuse: Initial Findings--Research Summary," published by the Justice Department's Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention in March 1994.]
Re: If it's not one thing, it's another...
Woohoo another guns vs Knives US vs UK debate rehashing the same old arguments. :charge:
The simple fact is the buggers aren't getting my knives, how am I supposed to create my masterpieces in the kitchen, and keep Mrs Ja'chyra well fed, without the proper tools, I'm an artist. Mmm might have fajita's tonight :idea2: :chef:
Re: If it's not one thing, it's another...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Here's an article that sums up what I was trying to say nicely.
Now, while the article is for the most part rather reasonable, that graph is just rediculous. That's a typical misuse of statistics. They used data until 1997, but that didn't stop them to project data for the future purely on the basis of continuing the current trend! That's the most simplistic way of extrapolation.
This is the projection they made:
http://muchos.co.uk/members/A.Saturnus/US_Homicide.gif
According to that, homicide rates should be lower for the US than for the UK by now. Nothings further from the truth so. This is the real development for the US:
http://muchos.co.uk/members/A.Saturn...ide_actual.gif
As one can see did the homicide rate remain stable since 1998 and not continue to drop as it has before. The rate for the UK has increased since 1997 until 2003 but then dropped considerably again (this is only England and Wales though):
http://muchos.co.uk/members/A.Saturn...omicide_04.gif
Thus, the homicide rate for the US is still higher than for the UK and there's no reason to assume that will change anytime soon.
Another silly part of that article is this:
Quote:
After close to 80 years of rigorous gun control the gap has now narrowed to a factor of four.
Why not through in some prehistoric facts as well? Attributing anything to 80 years of gun control is absurd.
Re: If it's not one thing, it's another...
The problem is, mostly, how responsible the owner's of guns are. If anything, I think they should just make the classes more rigorous or, somehow, more pointed. No, slightly intelligent, cold-blooded killer is going to buy a gun legally, and then use it for their crime.
Re: If it's not one thing, it's another...
Your statements are kinda contradictory to me. You say that gun owners should be given (more) classes when they purchase a gun to make them more responsible. But then you say no criminal would buy a gun legally and then use it in a crime.
I would argue that legal gun owners are probably already among the most law abiding citizens there are. If we wanted to do some good- crack down on the black market for illegal weapons.
A.Saturnus, I agree about the chart as well. I didn't think its predictions were anywhere near valid. But, as you did, I felt it was a reasonable article for the large part.
Re: If it's not one thing, it's another...
Yes a knife is just as efficient in killing a human being - in fact a knife is probably more efficient if you want to use the word correctly. Most individuals that commit crimes with a gun shoot more then once at their intended target - so as far as efficiency goes... I can play the word game even more given the nature of the discussion
I was thinking effiency as in how well it does it's job, no im not just playing the word game with you.
People pick guns because it gives you more chances at hitting the target not because its an efficient killing device. - verus only one that the knife offers.
I think we've been arguing over each other again, i thought your point was knifes are as dangerous as guns, before we continue can i check if this is your point ?
Want to see me insult someone - its not to hard. However when one counters an arguement with disengous rethoric - I have a tendency to point it out in a very direct and harsh way. Which is exactly what I have done - when you and others get off the disengous rethoric - then I will become less harsh in my response to your statements.
:snore:
Many weapons that are used by criminals are already banned or restricted - but does that keep them out of the hands of criminals? No because a criminal already intends to break the law - hince the term criminal.
well we seemed to manage it over here, for the most part.
And then again it seems you haven't answered the initial intent of my first post. Do you have any idea what it takes to kill another human being
anger, indoctrination, lack of morales and many more..
If an individual has no conscience or decides to kill another human being - the matter of getting the weapon to do it with will happen - be it a gun, a knife, a rock, or a sharp pointy stick.
lets say the individual the person wants to kill is me, with the knife rock or sharp pointy stick he'll need to get in pretty close (unless he's a very good throw) this gives me some chance as i could grab the arm with the weapon and try to disarm him, with the gun he could be 10 feet away and start shooting, this gives him a few chances to shoot me before i get to him to disarm him.
an individual example isn't quite as clear cut but if the same individual wanted to kill me and a few of my friends, say 5 of us, with the knife he wouldn't stand much chance, with a gun he could probably take out a few of us, maybe all of us.
Re: If it's not one thing, it's another...
"Your statements are kinda contradictory to me. You say that gun owners should be given (more) classes when they purchase a gun to make them more responsible. But then you say no criminal would buy a gun legally and then use it in a crime.
I would argue that legal gun owners are probably already among the most law abiding citizens there are. If we wanted to do some good- crack down on the black market for illegal weapons."
I'm sorry, I was too general in my writing. I was alluding to the accidental gun deaths, while I was also saying that outright banning guns wouldn't fix the problem of gun violence, because any smart criminal buys guns on the street, which can only be traced to him if he is caught with the gun.
Re: If it's not one thing, it's another...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
Yes a knife is just as efficient in killing a human being - in fact a knife is probably more efficient if you want to use the word correctly. Most individuals that commit crimes with a gun shoot more then once at their intended target - so as far as efficiency goes... I can play the word game even more given the nature of the discussion
I was thinking effiency as in how well it does it's job, no im not just playing the word game with you.
well lool at the statistics - with a gun it often takes the individual more then one shot - not very efficient in the classical sense now is it.
Quote:
People pick guns because it gives you more chances at hitting the target not because its an efficient killing device. - verus only one that the knife offers.
I think we've been arguing over each other again, i thought your point was knifes are as dangerous as guns, before we continue can i check if this is your point ?
yes indeed Knives are just as dangerous as guns if the intent is to harm you. That the knife wielder must get closer makes it more dangerous to both the victim and the attacker.
Quote:
Want to see me insult someone - its not to hard. However when one counters an arguement with disengous rethoric - I have a tendency to point it out in a very direct and harsh way. Which is exactly what I have done - when you and others get off the disengous rethoric - then I will become less harsh in my response to your statements.
:snore:
Yep - thats because there was never an insult - just pointed and direct language concerning the issue at hand.
Quote:
Many weapons that are used by criminals are already banned or restricted - but does that keep them out of the hands of criminals? No because a criminal already intends to break the law - hince the term criminal.
well we seemed to manage it over here, for the most part.
And then why is their the preception of an increase in crime and this bogus attempt at restricting knives?
Quote:
And then again it seems you haven't answered the initial intent of my first post. Do you have any idea what it takes to kill another human being
Quote:
anger, indoctrination, lack of morales and many more..
Now your getting the point - its not the weapon that kills - its the individual - the weapon is only the tool that one uses. Should certain weapons be restricted - sure I am completely against assualt weapons being bought by the general public - and I for futher restrictions on handguns. But before the Government imposes any new gun control legislation they must first attempt to provide adequate enforcement of the current laws.
Quote:
If an individual has no conscience or decides to kill another human being - the matter of getting the weapon to do it with will happen - be it a gun, a knife, a rock, or a sharp pointy stick.
lets say the individual the person wants to kill is me, with the knife rock or sharp pointy stick he'll need to get in pretty close (unless he's a very good throw) this gives me some chance as i could grab the arm with the weapon and try to disarm him, with the gun he could be 10 feet away and start shooting, this gives him a few chances to shoot me before i get to him to disarm him.
Don't be so sure of yourself - another set of statistics show that unless an individual has extensive training in self defense - to the point that its a habitual reaction - most often the victim still becomes a victim. The best thing to do when anyone attempts to attack you with a weapon - is to avoid contact.
Quote:
an individual example isn't quite as clear cut but if the same individual wanted to kill me and a few of my friends, say 5 of us, with the knife he wouldn't stand much chance, with a gun he could probably take out a few of us, maybe all of us.
No - he just would wait until your asleep.
