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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
I'd be willing to bet the founding fathers would be apalled at the forced removal of people from their homes. If they wanna sit around in a flooded city, that's their business.
You might be surprised on what they would of thought concerning this issue.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
No, it is most unreasonable and stupid. It is punishing people who have not commited any crime, who are just sitting at home with guns for protection. It's like arguing that since some crooks use cars, all cars should be consficated.
Crazed Rabbit
The army is defending itself, as well. They're trying to secure the area - make it safer. This is a disaster area - a martial law area. What do you expect? Let them risk their own soldiers just so to satisfy somebody's sudden streak of "freedom" in a disaster zone? More guns and bigger guns for everybody are the answers against the rampant shooting with guns?
Please...
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by ceasar010
Cube is right. Do any of you want big brother coming taking your guns and property, I know I don't!
It seems like were becoming the UK (in some ways) :help:
No offence to the UK members but from what I read about your country it seems kind of like a police state :embarassed: with all the banned guns, registered knives, and security cameras. :dizzy2:
Again big brother is not coming to take your weapons - over reaction is just that - over reaction to the news story. Try actually reading about what is going on - then making up imagary scenerio's that the 2nd Ammendment will be ended based upon this one event.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by AdrianII
In Switzerland, they do respond within 15 minutes.
My wife and child could be raped, tortured and murdered in 10. Assuming the police bother to come. THIS is the grand plan you have for the safety of my family? We'll make certain a good police report gets written after the fact?
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
THIS is the grand plan you have for the safety of my family?
Yours is a gun. I would not call that a grand plan either. Three burglars or rapists, armed with guns, would easily overwhelm you.
I already said I would probably have a gun too if I lived in the United States. But I wouldn't stop thinking about ways to get rid of the darned things and the whole violent culture associated with them. If you don't do that, you are going to be sitting there with that gun beside your bed, looking at five times the murder rate of Switzerland and a whole lot more no-go areas than Switzerland, a whole lot more can't-do things, kids growing up in cars instead of on the streets, etcetera.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
My wife and child could be raped, tortured and murdered in 10. Assuming the police bother to come. THIS is the grand plan you have for the safety of my family? We'll make certain a good police report gets written after the fact?
one can dream up extreme cenarious to justify about anything one wants....
the fact stands that these events do not happen with any kind of regularity to justify having arms in the hands of regular citizens, certainly not enough to justify all the problems that those guns out there create...
but...like adrianII said and i think correctly the problem is one with the society´s views towards others.....frankly i´m at a loss to justify where such a behaviour comes from in the american society...but the truth is that it is there...
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
Americans don't like change. Thats were the behavior comes from.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
Ok gun grabbers I have not hurt any one or intend to unless it is for a good reason. But yet you want to take my property away? And my favorite means of fun (yes target shooting is better then the tw games)
If you don't want a gun fine but dont take mine. If you want to disarm america go ahead and try but you won't last long.
Why are you people so afraid of guns...a gun has never hurt anyone. You should be after the criminals instead of the guns!
I need to go out and get me that sks with the evil bayonet and grenade mount....just to anger the anti gunners ~D
WHY cant you anti gunners just leave us alone? You dont like guns? fine DONT BUY ONE THEN. You like guns? fine go buy one and exercise your god given right to be able to defend your self!
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
Cube is right you hear things like that on the news almost every day in the USA :embarassed:
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Extreme events? LOL.
Hey, I think we get the point ~;)
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Come live in America for a few years, pal. Try New York, or another big city, and tell me that that is an Extreme Event. LOL.
Los Angeles was an eye-opener for me. Rape is just around the corner there, I know. It is even part of the initiation rituals for new gang members. But how did this come about? And don't give us the crap about welfare and being soft on crime, because if those were the causes all of The Netherlands would be one big Skid Row.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
And, of course, you have to realize that it is protected under the constitution. And that is something alot of us take very seriously.
I know that. And unlike most Euro-muppets I do realise that effective gun control would a tall order given the number of illegal guns and the networks used to (re)distribute them. I would own a gun myself if I lived in the United States, no doubt about it. But that wouldn't stop me thinking about how to get out of the mess because, you see, it is not life as I know it or how I would want it to be for my kids. It is a bit like tort practice in the U.S. -- I know where it comes from, but I wouldn't want to live with it.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
I could seee why you would not want your kids around crime....but whats wrong with guns? they are not bad.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by ceasar010
I could seee why you would not want your kids around crime....but whats wrong with guns? they are not bad.
Guns aren't bad, my friend, if only they were not used so often on American streets. A year ago I would have said that gun ownership was the main reason for that violence, but my views have changed in the meantime. Lawd, ah have seen the light...
It is not the number of privately owned guns that sets your country apart, it is the violence in American culture as Redleg called it. That's what we are on about, not gun ownership.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Ronin
one can dream up extreme cenarious to justify about anything one wants....
the fact stands that these events do not happen with any kind of regularity to justify having arms in the hands of regular citizens, certainly not enough to justify all the problems that those guns out there create...
but...like adrianII said and i think correctly the problem is one with the society´s views towards others.....frankly i´m at a loss to justify where such a behaviour comes from in the american society...but the truth is that it is there...
I had three home invasions in my neighborhood alone (not my city, my neighborhood). How much more regular should they be before I should get concerned?
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I had three home invasions in my neighborhood alone (not my city, my neighborhood). How much more regular should they be before I should get concerned?
Every American home invader knows that the home owner probably owns a gun. And there have been 3 invasions in your neighbourhood alone? Apparently guns do not deter invaders. So much for your grand plan, Don.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
There is only a gun in 1 in 3 houses so he has a pretty good chance of getting a non gun owner.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by ceasar010
There is only a gun in 1 in 3 houses so he has a pretty good chance of getting a non gun owner.
That is the national average. In middle class homes the ratio seems to be over 50 %.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
Guns do help stop lots of crime they are used in defense 2.5 million time a year in the US alone (by civilians not the police)
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by ceasar010
Guns do help stop lots of crime they are used in defense 2.5 million time a year in the US alone (by civilians not the police)
They do not stop the home invasions in Don's neighbourhood.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
Perhaps because the people in his neighberhood don't have guns, and the criminals prey on middle class areas where residents think nothing will happen?
EDIT: How about dealing with the fact that guns defend 2.5 million people a year, instead of trying to weasel out of it by throwing out red herrings?
Crazed Rabbit
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
I just realized that somthing like this started off the Turner Diaries. This truely is the end.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by AdrianII
They do not stop the home invasions in Don's neighbourhood.
Aaah, but North Carolina has fairly restrictive gun laws. South Carolina doesn't have such a tight clamp and their violent crime rate is signficantly less.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by AdrianII
Every American home invader knows that the home owner probably owns a gun. And there have been 3 invasions in your neighbourhood alone? Apparently guns do not deter invaders. So much for your grand plan, Don.
They haven't come to my house yet. And no, most people are not armed around me. Many of the cities around here have laws banning firearms ownership, so if you live within the city limits, you're not allowed to own a gun.
I guess at some point, we ought to look at the fact that we're arguing apples and oranges here. It seems that for Adrian you could substitute the term 'prevent crime' for 'own a gun'. In terms of where I'm coming from you could substitute 'defend yourself'.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Perhaps because the people in his neighberhood don't have guns, and the criminals prey on middle class areas where residents think nothing will happen?
Middle class peope own more guns than anyone else in the U.S. Try and weasel your way out of that.
Meanwhile, watch how I weasel out of the 2.5 million. Could you tell me how many crimes were prevented by other means than using a gun? Just so we can compare, see. Otherwise, your number is pretty useless.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by AdrianII
Meanwhile, watch how I weasel out of the 2.5 million. Could you tell me how many crimes were prevented by other means than using a gun? Just so we can compare, see. Otherwise, your number is pretty useless.
I would also like to add that it would be appropriate style and common courtesy in debates not to just throw some numbers around but to provide a source for these numbers, so that anybody who is intersted would be able to see
a) who came up with these numbers
b) how they came up with the numbers
c) what cases of crime prevention are included in these numbers
Thanks in advance :bow:
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
I get my numbers from the NRA and other pro gun sites ~D
I dont know who has the truest numbers.
For example depending on where you look there are 50-80 million gun owners in the USA.
Depending on where you look there are 150 to 200,500 million guns in the USA
depending on where you look there are 1.5 to 2.5 million times a gun is used for defence a year.
So I just picked the ones that helped my agenda the most (but are some where near the middle)... just like the brady campaign does ~D
...........................
armed citizen...scroll down and pick a state!
http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by ceasar010
I get my numbers from the NRA and other pro gun sites
I thought so much ~;)
But seriously, although that source implies that we should treat the numbers carefully (as the source is obviously biased) that does not mean that they are automatically false.
Do you have a link were they actually give more details on the numbers?
I think it would be better to judge the credibility data based on the methodology and not just discount it on any perceived bias of the source. :bow:
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
I frequent ak47 world often they have some nice info on aks....although I bought one they dont recomend.
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Re: And So It Begins: the Begining of the End for the Second Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Aaah, but North Carolina has fairly restrictive gun laws. South Carolina doesn't have such a tight clamp and their violent crime rate is significantly less.
Here are some numbers I found that support your statement about differing crime rates.
Year 2000
South Carolina per capita
Murder 5.8
Robbery 146.6
Burglary 969.3
North Carolina per capita
Murder 7.0
Robbery 156.5
Burglary 1,216.1
However, just about every source I look at says that gun laws in North Carolina are softer than in most of the rest of the United States. Two-thirds of North Carolinians live in homes where a firearm is present. North Carolina ranks ninth in the US in gun homicides per capita. Suicide by firearm is also more frequent in NC than in the US as a whole. In 1998, firearms were used in 67 percent of murders, 47 percent of robberies, and 30 percent of aggravated assaults committed in North Carolina. Every five days in NC a child age 17 or younger is killed by a gun in a homicide, suicide or accidental shooting. Between 1986 and 1996, the firearm death rate for ages 5-14 rose 66 percent, and for ages 15-24 the rate increased 46 percent. Many illegal guns from NC turn up in murders in places as far as New York. Boston is complaining aboutthe constant smuggling of guns from both North and South Carolina into the city.
I accept your remarks about NC city councils limiting gun ownership at face value. Of course if you limit gun ownership only in one particular area of a State where guns are otherwise very prevalent and the purchase of guns for criminal purposes is so easy, you are turning the residents of that one particular area into sitting ducks.