Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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No legal tyranny of any kind, nor are the measures noted above a problem. My memories of driving in Ireland (admittedly 12 years old now) include a plethora of overly narrow and poorly graded roads coupled with a bevy of motorists devoted to driving those roads at break-neck speeds. I can't concieve of a cell-phone experience being possible under such conditions, even if it were advisable in the first place.
As you alluded to yourself, Ireland has undergone a dramatic transformation in the last 12 years. The so called Celtic Tiger has transformed a backwards stagnant economy into one of the most successful and richest in the world. In line with dramatic growth, the roads, and indeed all infastructure and almost everything else has improved by orders of magnitude. Many of the narrow death roads still exist (they do have charm though...) but they are fast being replaced. There are a lot of roads being built all around the place, including proper motorways eventually connecting all major urban centers. I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you were to return! ~:)
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might debate your safety evaluation of this class, though as I have noted already they do have some shortcomings. Interior safety barriers on SUVs in the USA are usually just as well set up as the minivans and cars now. The higher center of gravity, of course, continues as a greater concern. Your are quite correct that the use of their "light truck" designation to evade the tougher CAFE standards for sedans was a "dodge" used by the auto makers, but the uneconomical charge isn't as well grounded. While you are correct from the perspective of engineering efficiency, the US market did not find the economics relevant given available cash flow v cost of operation, and the marketing economics worked (still work?) just fine. By the way, much better sense of your views in this post. Not sure I agree, but much more compelling.
With increasing oil prices, running an SUV for suburban school and shopping runs in what is presumably pretty heavy traffic is going to start costing a serious amount of money, even on comparitively low American petrol prices. Up till now, what you call gas has been so damn cheap for you guys that it hasnt been a real concern for most of your population. However with $70 per barrel, its going to start to bite into available cash, and the market will respond. The only reason it hasnt already is because gas was so cheap. Anyway, regardless of how the market or the public responds to it, SUVs are extremely uneconomical. They are essentially double the mass of a normal car, and I would guess that the consumption of the engines is near enough double as well.
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
:laugh4:
Youve insulted my intelligence, implied im irresponsible, and in general just been an ass simply because you dont like what kind of vehicle I drive. Just when I start to think "this guy's not very nice" - you pull out tosh! Tosh!! I cant help but smile, its so adorable.
Anyway, you still havent answered an important question. A Rolls will most likely do a lot more damage to an economy car than the economy car will do to the Rolls.
If we take your thinking to the next logical step, all vehicles would have to have the exact same crash test ratings so no one will be more dangerous on the road than anyone else.
The focus should be on bad drivers, not vehicles that happen to do better in head on crashes. Its very much like the gun arguement. Just as guns dont kill people, vehicles dont kill people. I think you can figure out who kills people. ~;)
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
Does anyone know whether it is single car crashes or an accident with other vehicles that claims more lives? I would assume that more people crash into inanimate objects, but i believe the accidents that claim the most lives are head on or side crashes ... i do see where you are coming from, but in fatal accidents i believe that trucks are a better bet for survival.
Here's an article which contains a 2004 breakdown of fatalities by car model, including occupant deaths and "other" deaths (i.e., people killed in other cars, bystanders, etc.). Please examine the ratings, and see if the numbers match your suppositions. Note that these figures apply to nothing but crash-related fatalities, so they apply precisely to your point.
But don't let any empirical studies dissuade you from a tall, heavy vehicle with lots of cupholders.
I'd repost the table here, but I haven't the foggiest notion of how to re-create tables in php format. Knock 5% off my geek score.
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by PanzerJager
A Rolls will most likely do a lot more damage to an economy car than the economy car will do to the Rolls.
My dear Panzy, the issue would be primarily one of aesthetics. One would rather be driven over by this than by any Sports Futility Vehicle.
:toff:
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
There are very few people who need an SUV. First of all, for their size, they don't hold much. A full-sized van holds a lot more passengers or cargo with the same gas mileage. Spacewise, SUVs are very inefficient. I can carry more cargo in my Mazda mini pickup that gets 30 miles per gallon (about 13km per liter, I think).
The vast majority of SUV owners never take them into situations that require four-wheel-drive or excessively high ground clearance.
People buy SUVs because they are fashionable. It's disgusting that people buy these gas pigs because of a fad. If they really wanted to "support the troops" and make the US self-sufficient in oil, they would buy fuel-efficient cars. While thousands of people are giving their lives in Iraq for the oil companies, the SUV owners are here using as much fuel as they can to make the US more fuel-dependent and more polluted in the bargain. This high demand for gasoline drives the prices up for all of us.
In addition, I'm tired of huge vehicles taking up valuable parking space, and taking ten minutes to back out of said space because they are so long and have enormous turning radiuses. The drivers also can't see around them.
In a related note, I was down at San Diego's Mission Bay last weekend. In a time of national crisis with gas supply problems, what did I see? Everywhere, people were speeding around in V8-powered boats and other gas-guzzling watercraft. They can't take a weekend off from their petrol-gorging fun even in a time of disaster! There were just as many internal combustion watercraft emitting smoke and dumping unused fuel into the water than ever.
Stop supporting the US by waving flags and singing anthems. Support the nation by being conscious of its needs. Stop entertaining yourselves like unsupervised children and start being mature, conscientious people.
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by PanzerJager
A Rolls will most likely do a lot more damage to an economy car than the economy car will do to the Rolls.
There are a lot less Rolls Royces on the road than SUVs. If there were the same number of SUVs, I wouldn't complain about them.
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Youve insulted my intelligence, implied im irresponsible, and in general just been an ass simply because you dont like what kind of vehicle I drive. Just when I start to think "this guy's not very nice" - you pull out tosh! Tosh!! I cant help but smile, its so adorable.
Hey, no skin off my nose. Adorable's a better thing to be than many others. I cant personally see whats so adorable, but then again Im not such a sophisticated SUV driving Krieger like yourself. Some of us can only ever aspire to reach those dizzy heights of supreme advancement! :charge: ~D
It is 2am here and I've to be up early in the morning for work, so unfortunately I can't address your question at this minute. I will state though that the case for a RR and for an SUV are worlds apart. Totally different vehicles in just about every way. Not a very valid comparison. I will also state that crash safety test ratings are not a rating of how much of a cars momentum can be offloaded to the other car in the crash, but how well that said car can protect its inhabitants by absorbing the impact of the collision.
Here Lemur, when in doubt, just stick to the basics! ~D
http://www.metw.net/images/table.JPG
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by Lemurmania
Here's an article which contains a
2004 breakdown of fatalities by car model, including occupant deaths and "other" deaths (i.e., people killed in other cars, bystanders, etc.). Please examine the ratings, and see if the numbers match your suppositions. Note that these figures apply to nothing but crash-related fatalities, so they apply precisely to your point.
But don't let any empirical studies dissuade you from a tall, heavy vehicle with lots of cupholders.
I'd repost the table here, but I haven't the foggiest notion of how to re-create tables in php format. Knock 5% off my geek score.
alright. I drive a mid-size
but i still believe that competent drivers who do not speed (to excess) like my mother are much safer in SUV's. I agree that impact is worse with more weight, but i do not agree that mid-sized cars are safer for families with competent and responsible driverss. Better against hitting things by accident? you bet. Better against getting hit by an irresponsible driver? no way.
this is what we are talking about
since you love stats - could you find me the statistics of families killed in accidedents by car type?
mothers tend to be slower and more cautious drivers - especially with children in their cars. men may also acount for a much higher percentage of SUV driver deaths because males would be more likely to speed in an SUV due to male insanity and the probability that most women who own SUV's probably haul around families while most men probably do not AND drive like fools
lets keep this debate going
there are a million ways to call those numbers into question
and a million ways to distort facts through a 5 column graph on a reporters personal website
SO if you are a guy who drives like an idiot - you are more likely to be killed driving an SUV than a mid-size (generally)? i could agree to this
i find no point in driving an SUV
but i would still buy one for my family if my wife drove responsibly
i am not discounting your arguement wholesale - just certain aspects of it - like the idea that the bigger the car you drive the more chances of losing your life you have. i believe that this is only the case if you drive irresponsibly
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by Martyr
Subaru Legacy/Outback - Driver Deaths, 74 Other Deaths, 24
~:eek:
Well, it's been swell, everyone! Please, not too much profanity at my eulogy.
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by Lemurmania
Here's an article which contains a
2004 breakdown of fatalities by car model, including occupant deaths and "other" deaths (i.e., people killed in other cars, bystanders, etc.). Please examine the ratings, and see if the numbers match your suppositions. Note that these figures apply to nothing but crash-related fatalities, so they apply precisely to your point.
But don't let any empirical studies dissuade you from a tall, heavy vehicle with lots of cupholders.
I'd repost the table here, but I haven't the foggiest notion of how to re-create tables in php format. Knock 5% off my geek score.
Skeptical of a New Yorker piece given its editorial stance, but you have to give kudos to an article that actually reports facts and labels sources clearly. Seems the minivans do best, SUV's no better than average and a bit worse than that for the driver, but subcompacts are hammered. Does put the safety numbers in a new light. Good food for thought.
Seamus
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by _Martyr_
It is 2am here and I've to be up early in the morning for work, so unfortunately I can't address your question at this minute.
Oh that's right, there are actually jobs in Ireland now... ~;)
Just kidding. I am well aware of the phenomenal economic growth over the last 8-10 years there. Glad to hear the road system is getting the lift it needs.
I agree about quaint, but heavens. One trip over the old Conor pass road to Dingle was enough to make me think about swearing off Guiness. Fortunately, I regained my senses.
Seamus
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
since you love stats - could you find me the statistics of families killed in accidedents by car type?
Oh for Pete's sake -- I've already thrown more hard data down than anybody in their right mind ought to. Do your own research! Post some data!
I haven't the foggiest notion of how to find breakdown by "families killed." Sheesh.
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And this quote from the article directly challenges this whole Bigger Is Always Better canard:
In a head-on crash, an Explorer or a Suburban would crush a Jetta or a Camry. But, clearly, the drivers of Camrys and Jettas are finding a way to avoid head-on crashes with Explorers and Suburbans. The benefits of being nimble--of being in an automobile that's capable of staying out of trouble--are in many cases greater than the benefits of being big.
The biggest accident in my extended family had to do with a semi merging into the lane my sister-in-law was in at the time. There was nothing she could do but an emergency evasion -- there was no question of accelerating or braking out of that mess. She wound up doing a controlled slide in the grass and gravel by the side of the road, rather than getting smushed by the semi. The car didn't flip or roll, she didn't hit anything, and ultimately she was fine after a scary but controlled bout of deceleration. She was driving a VW Passat. I think that sort of evasion maneuver would have been much more difficult in a Suburban.
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I agree about quaint, but heavens. One trip over the old Conor pass road to Dingle was enough to make me think about swearing off Guiness. Fortunately, I regained my senses.
What do you mean? The Guinness in North America is trash.
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Well, it's been swell, everyone! Please, not too much profanity at my eulogy.
Well thats it then, we'll have to all pitch in and buy Prole a safer car. We cant afford to lose her to an out of control soccer mom in an Expedition! ~:eek:
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by NeonGod
What do you mean? The Guinness in North America is trash.
Certainly of lesser quality than that available at St. James Gate -- which I relished. However, if you are a fan of Guinness, much of what is commonly marketed in the USA is seems a bit...thin. Somewhat sub-par Guiness or Pabst Blue Ribbon.....nolo contendore. Fortunately the Microbrews et. al. are providing alternatives with flavor now. Moreover, the Guinness cans with widget are actually pretty decent.
Seamus
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Certainly of lesser quality than that available at St. James Gate -- which I relished. However, if you are a fan of Guinness, much of what is commonly marketed in the USA is seems a bit...thin. Somewhat sub-par Guiness or Pabst Blue Ribbon.....nolo contendore. Fortunately the Microbrews et. al. are providing alternatives with flavor now. Moreover, the Guinness cans with widget are actually pretty decent.
Seamus
Well, I do enjoy independent beer (although, technically, I believe the term "Micro-brewery" belongs to the ones run in the basements of pubs) very much. The Guinness in widget cans in Canada are still brewed by Labatt's...so... :no:
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
Re: Sport Utility Vehicles - Your Opinion
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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
i am not discounting your arguement wholesale - just certain aspects of it - like the idea that the bigger the car you drive the more chances of losing your life you have.
Eh? I never suggested any such thing. My argument is that you are no safer in an SUV than in a more nimble car, not that you are less safe. To boil my position down to its barest bones:
- Extra mass can help, but it can also hurt
- Maneuverability, braking distance and center of gravity are just as important as size and height
- People tend to gauge their safety emotionally, rather than logically
And that's it. If someone choses to drive a Lincoln Navigator rather than a Toyota Camry, safety-wise it's a wash. So you might want to find a reason besides safety to drive an SUV.
Panzer, for instance, likes to offroad. That's a pretty legit reason to have a 4x4. It would also make economic sense, if his budget allows, to have a thriftier commuter car, since there's no real reason to drive to the mall hauling all of the gear and weight associated with 4x4 capability.
I am not arguing that SUVs are bad, bad, BAD! I'm suggesting that the primary reason people give for getting them -- safety -- is bogus.
Oh, and T1Master, does it come in blue? If it doesn't come in a nice shade of blue, the sale is off.
