Actually, faith (or at least Christianity) should be worn with humility. That's the problem with a lot of Christians. They are too proud of their own piety, and they forget that pride itself is a sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south
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Actually, faith (or at least Christianity) should be worn with humility. That's the problem with a lot of Christians. They are too proud of their own piety, and they forget that pride itself is a sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south
None of the societies you mentioned are atheist societies. In fact, I don't think there is an atheist society anywhere on the planet. So you really have no point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
god i hope you're being sarcastic.
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Originally Posted by PanzerJager
That exactly what I have been saying for a loooong time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
There is no atheist society, and there never will be, because I'm sure SOMEONE will believe in god. There is no Christian society as well because there is always someone who questions their faith every moment. In fact there never was a Christian society to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi
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Originally Posted by Soulforged
I did not claim any statistical proof except the fact that any athiest society we've had has been terrible.
Also, law is based on morality. That's obvious.
The notion that atheists cannot have morality has been debunked before and would be off topic here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derfasciti
The "atheist" societies you mentioned had the common feature that religions were outlawed. Outlawing religion is an act of oppression and it is therefore no wonder that these have been terrible. If you look at societies that were religious and opressive, you´ll notice that all of them have been terrible too.
You may notice that all societies that were not terrible were secular. But a secular society can neither be called religious nor atheist. It´s secular. In secualr societies religious people and atheists often manage to live quite happily with each other.
It's not that obvious. Law is now separated from morality, at least in my system, the common law is very obscure to me even now. So it will work fine without morality. In any case religion is not the only source of morals, it's not even the best one. Also you made a general rule of it, like the one on the article.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derfasciti
I can do the same proposition asking you to disprove what the article sais. Careful with double edge weapons.Quote:
Yup! Come on now, disprove it. Isn't this how evolution was confirmed? It was not disproven. Inductive reasoning worked wonderfully for that didn't it? Moths were natually selected, therefore all of us were too. Right?
No my primary is spanish, I talk brazilian, and I'm on myway to german, my english is not that good, i admit it:embarassed: .Quote:
P.S. Soulforged, I don't know if English is your primary language or not, but I am having a heckuva time understanding your previous post. Yeah, it is late for me (class tomorrow and all), but I don't think that explains it.
Your English is better then my Spanish. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Well then I should create a thread to see how your spanish looks like (and laugh as some of you might have done already ~D ). And I see your problem really. I think that after comparing the two, english is much more simple, spanish is way too complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Why Im not talking about trying to convert people but I wont sit back and allow my religon to become demonizedQuote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Ahhh...But your religion is already demonized, i.e. it has demons.~DQuote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south
I know it's off topic but I couldn't resist, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I mean no offense, but patriotism seems to have serious side-effects such as blindness, doesn't it?
You're praising the USA as though they are the best democracy, and the rest of the lesser countries in the world (every nation except the USA, of course) are primitive, when there are frauds in your elections (Florida?) and something supposedly guaranteed in the first Amendment of your Constitution is actually not: the liberty of free speech and of the press.
Do you remember the Watergate scandal? When Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward, along with their informant “Deep Throat” (n° 2 of the FBI), kept the White House under pressure for two years and eventually led to Nixon's resignation? Or more recently, Clinton and Lewinsky's scandal: Clinton was so hard pressed that he had to acknowledge his affair. Yes, I'll grant you, it was a time when the media were almighty and independent. Yet, you may not have cared if you have followed the pro-Bush stance through the recent years, but something terrible happened to your dear and grand country: it's become a political tyranny. Don't believe me? Ok, here's the story.
Back in the mid-90's, powerful media companies lobbied the government in order to relax the media law, which was preventing any firms from owning too many newspapers, TV and radio stations. At that time, the USA assuredly had the best law guaranteeing both independence and variety. Nonetheless, the “big ones” pressed so much so that the government accepted their requests and the media law was relaxed. Where it was impossible for a single company to hold more than 40 radio stations, Clear Channel, a Texan firm (what a surprise), now owns 1,225. What's wrong with that, you'll tell me? Clear Channel also acquired the majority of the venues in the USA, thus allowing it to threaten artists to be blacklisted in case they don't accept to perform in one of its venues. Not to mention that songs such as “Imagine” were banned, for they were considered “anti-war” or that artists criticising, directly or indirectly Bush, are off the air. Another nice example is Sinclair who bought up to 62 local TV stations. They systematically fire the local employees and replace them with their own, located in Baltimore, while they pretend the shows are still presented by local people. Sinclair broadcasts every single “pro-Bush” news report the White House fabricate. In exchange, your government intends to further relax the media law according to Sinclair's wishes.
Perhaps my favorite example, now. Prior to the presidential debate between Senator John Kerry and President Bush, the White House forbade, without any justifications, any cameramen to film the candidates from behind. Yet, at least one of those cheeky cameraman did it, and several people subsequently noticed a strange bulge in the back of Mr. Bush. A NASA scientist put the video footage through the space agency's image-enhancement process. It clearly showed Bush had a wire in the back, the sort used by actors and news-readers. He even betrayed himself when he said “Now let me finish!”, when nobody was interrupting him. Do you remember our pal Bob Woodward who helped bring Nixon down? Good, because he refused to publish the investigations his journalists conducted about “Bush's wire in the back during the presidential debate” for fear of consequences, even though he believed them to be genuine. The same thing happen to the New York Times's journalists. The White House pressured the media and the incident was soon forgotten.
Shall I add that “live-broadcasts” are now delayed by five seconds in order to allow censorship? All that for Janet's poor breast? Yes, because because Conservatives (religious) were so shocked they demanded that things so horrendous, so despicable, so frightening be banned. So much for your supposedly liberty. Broadcasters can now censor at will.
I'm not finished yet, though. Has anyone ever checked Reporters Without Borders' annual report and ranking? Have a look then. In 2003, the USA were ranked 135th out of 166 for their coverage of the operations in Irak. Impressive! In 2004 they have hardly improved and are 108th. Indeed, embedded journalists rarely are a proof of independence and objectivity. Ever wondered why you don't see the dead soldiers' coffins, or injured Americans in Irak? That's deemed anti-patriotic, of course! Better lying than demoralising the whole country, heh? What I like best, though, is Fox News calling for war on Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, because “We'll do whatever our patriotic duty is” (Rupert Murdoch, owner of Fox News, Australian), or CNN's “In deciding what to air, CNN will consider guidance from appropriate authorities” (CNN spokesman). If you're a true American patriot you must support Bush's wars, yes?
If anyone read 1984, it's sad to notice the political tyranny, inspired by the Stalin's regime, Orwell was criticising is appearing in the USA. I'm exaggerating? Remember what happened after a presenter on ABC said the way Bush called the hijackers “cowards” was absurd, then. His show was axed when several advertisers left, and Bush's official spokesman made this banal statement “[This is] is reminder to all Americans that they need to watch what they say, watch what they do, and this is not time for remarks like that”. Translation: “Be a good boy, don't question, don't criticise the government's actions and you won't get into trouble”.
You were right in a way, though. As long as you support Bush, the USA are the greatest democracy ever and the country where free speech and the freedom of the media is guaranteed.
But after all, that's only a stupid rant written by a poor inhabitant of a lesser country. Surely, you have learned better from your biased media.
Ldvs,
Most Americans don't want to believe what you say, so they will argue against you. They have built up such a image in their minds of the US being the best, the free-est, the most democratic, the strongest, the most benign, and the most moral, that they can never see their own nation objectively.
American patriotism is built on myths, like the Founding Fathers, the first democracy, individualism, self-reliance, overcoming adversity with sweat and inventive thinking, George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Charles Lindberg, Neil Armstrong, etc. It is like a religion, and don't you dare desecrate the religious artifact, the US flag! You will have to face the American Inquisition! Whereas Italians and Mexicans hang crucifixes in their homes, Americans hang flags on their houses and cars.
In that sense, your post isn't completely off-topic. I think US patriotism is the religion of a significant number of (most?) Americans.
These Americans want to feel safe and secure in their myths. They don't want to know the truth and may even react violently against anyone who tries to show it to them.
Ldvs, please take off topic rants elsewhere.
And you somehow know the truth? Every nation has heroes. Part of what binds nations is their love of the great men and women from their past. There is something wrong with that? You would rather that I be self-loathing? How exactly is a person supposed to be objective when there is so much information available?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachikaze
Azi
I didn't see it that way. Now that you said it, though... ~;) Obviously my cause isn't lost, for at least a few Americans aren't duped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachikaze
Sorry to have told blunt facts. One can't let statements such as Crazed Rabbit's pass without reacting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
If you mean you've managed to goad Tachikaze into another of his anti American screeds, I hate to break it to you, but that's not much of an accomplishment. From what I've seen of his posting he hates the US (though I've never figured out why he chooses to stay) and it's inhabitants. I've never known him to have one positive thing to say about America or Americans. Not exactly what I'd call 'turning one of the faithful'. But by all means, keep whining about what a bunch of neanderthals we all are, I'm sure that will you some converts. Now, perhaps we can take ourselves from our favorite pasttime and actually discuss the topic this thread is about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvs
The US has good music.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
And an almost universal acceptance of casual attire.
It has beautiful natural features . . .
. . . until the Republicans have their way.
Oh, and we're smart enough to import Japanese cars.
The standard response seems to always be, "should I be self-loathing?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
No, stand back and sort out the hype and PR from the reality, and be politically active. Resist the negative and reinforce the positive. Examine the real motives behind the policies of the US.
Disassociate yourself from the US. Strip away American identity and see the US, its values, and people from the outside. Peel away US dogma and try to take a neutral stance. Visit other nations and learn other viewpoints and understand them the best you can. Understand their feelings and motives, not superficially, but deeply and nonjudgementally. For a while, forget what people have been drilling into your head all these years, and try to see things with a blank slate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
The topic is over Don, but as many Americans you misunderstood his statements. Though they were against your nation that doesn't mean that you're neanderthals, or nothing less, is just pointing out that you're not the best. If you want to say it out loud "I'm proud of being american" Ok for you, but you've to understand that there's always an objective point of view of things. In my case I'll never feel proud of nationallity, i disregard nationalism in any form, as I disregard religion, see I achieved to turn it back on topic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone