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Another obfuscater.Quote:
Switch the shoes, and I'd say all will act like this
Why. My question was pretty easy. Isreal has the power to take over all of Palestine if it so chooses and keep all the land it won in its wars. But they dont do it. Now once more if the Palestinains at anytime since the inception of Israel had the same power to destroy it would they? Is there any doubt as to the answer?Quote:
But you must switch the shoes completely,
Another what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Yes there is: it had never happened. How can you claim absolute in something that never happened? How can you be so sure that if it was the Palestinians in charge, they would not "retreat from Gaza" when pressure becomes this high? You're also ignoring the fact that these Palestinians have not obtained neither their own sovereign state, nor full citizenship and rights of the citizens of the country of Israel. Which only spells oppression. You're claiming that if the Palestinians have the power, they would destroy Israel, while Israel isn't doing that; but you're ignoring the rest of the situation, completely. Are the Israelis being oppressed? Are they being pushed far below the line of poverty? Are their civilians dying everyday and are being considered "collateral damage" by the hands of an official military? I do not condone terrorism, but neither do I agree with oppression. That the land was officially taken to establish the country of Israel in 1948 against the will of the Arabs is past, and no good comes in debating over that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Ha! Uses of hipotetical courses, not of much use to the critical concret situation Gawain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Now, before that high-horse of morality gallops into a holier-than-thou sunset, let it be oh so clear that the main tenet of the leaders of both Zionism and Israel itself (at its inception) was also the destruction of Palestine. That's not me saying that - they said it.
And look what happened - Palestine was very nearly destroyed and it's people subjected to decades of prison camp existence and human rights abuses that would have made Ghengis Khan proud. If there is any moral high ground on Israel's side, it's an ant hill the size of a walnut.
No. Instead Israel's civilians are considered THE target.Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Quote:
Now, before that high-horse of morality gallops into a holier-than-thou sunset, let it be oh so clear that the main tenet of the leaders of both Zionism and Israel itself (at its inception) was also the destruction of Palestine. That's not me saying that - they said it.
No thats you saying it. Its another one of those blanket statements. Again how is it they dont do it now and why on the face of gods green earth did they give back land they didnt have to?
So the Palenstine people can not end the terrorism that is being committed in their name?
Nope , it doesn't look like it Red . Maybe thats why the PA security services were having their little protest at the assembly the other day .
Now if Gawain had been correctly specific he would have said.... "only the Palestinian terrorists can stop the Palestinian terrorism" ....
But of course that differentiates between Palestinians and terrorists , and terrorism and Palestinian terrorism , and we wouldn't want to do that now would we ?
Thats better Gawain so your question is now two questions for a start .
If at any time since the founding of Israel those who now call themselves Palestinians ever had the power to destroy Israel would they have done so?
A very diverse group of people , some of whom would and some of whom wouldn't , so you are talking about the extremists arn't you ? Well thats simple and was covered by....If it is the former then guess what , they are crazy .
Unless you are saying that ALL Palestinians are extremists .
Would they ever think of giving any land gained in war with Israel back to Israel?
Of course they would , sometimes the land gained is just too expensive to hold onto and becomes a hinderance to both the economy and the security of the State . In which case it is abandoned in the interests of balancing the books and improving security . Sinai , Lebanon , Gaza and some of the West Bank being perfect examples . And Golan being a prime example of when they won't as that is vital for the economy , not for the security despite all the claims that state the latter .
Unless of course you are once again talking about the extremists , who on both sides not only do not want to give up a single inch of territory , they also want every inch of all of the territory . But of course....they are crazy .
So on to your statement to Antiochus...
Isreal has the power to take over all of Palestine if it so chooses and keep all the land it won in its wars.
No it hasn't , and it has proven that it hasn't .
But they dont do it.
Yes , because they cannot .
Unless of course by power you mean the ability to Nuke the whole area , then yes it has that power .
So.... My question was pretty easy. yes it was pretty easy when you go into specifics , you shouild try it more often ~;)
Well, unless I'm the re-incarnation of both Theodore Hertzl and David-Ben Gurion, they said it, not me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Two words - American & Money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
So your arguement that this statement is rubbish is based upon semantics?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
It is a blanket statement and incorrect , if that is semantics then yes.
Ah but I would argue that it is not incorrect - just not complete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Are the Palenstine people supporting Terrorist groups such as Hamas?
Is there a ground swell of support for the terrorist from palenstine who committs an act of terror against the Israeli people?
Is the overwelming condemnation of the terrorist activity of groups like Hamas who advocate the destruction of Israel?
Personally I find both sides at fault - and both sides cause the violence in an ever ending vicous cycle. Neither side wants to stop the cycle so therefor it continues.
Israel is wrong in some of its approaches to the Palestine issue, but that does not justify the terrorist actions of groups like Hamas who instead of targeting the military or the government of Israel they target buses full of women and children.
Defending Palenstine is one thing - however it seems that you would like to negate the impact of the Palenstine People's support of terrorist groups such as Hamas.
Again the statement that Gaiwan stated of Only the Palenstine people can stop the palenstine terrorism is not completely correct - however its not rubbish if one takes out the word Only The Palenstine people can stop the terrorists themselves if they withdraw their consent by inaction of the terrorits actions.
Israel can help by insuring that they continue to change the matter in which they deal with the Palenstine people in a more humane way - and to return to the 1948 border argeement.
however its not rubbish if one takes out the word Only
ah I see , so I should edit Gawains posts for him instead of pointing out the faults in them .
Are the Palenstine people supporting Terrorist groups such as Hamas?
Not as much , their portion of the vote declined , but of course there was only an 85% turnout for the vote which is a ridiculously low figure~;)
and to return to the 1948 border argeement.
You damn pro-Palestinian terrorist supporter !!!!Whats wrong with returning to the '67 borders~D ~D ~D
Ah but when you called it absolute rubbish - you were just as incorrect as you assumed he was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Well nice selective answer - more detail is needed then just a mention of the voting record to show a decline in support. Should I say your comment is absolutely rubbish because of its faulty assumption here.Quote:
Are the Palenstine people supporting Terrorist groups such as Hamas?
Not as much , their portion of the vote declined , but of course there was only an 85% turnout for the vote which is a ridiculously low figure~;)
[/quote]Quote:
and to return to the 1948 border argeement.
You damn pro-Palestinian terrorist supporter !!!!Whats wrong with returning to the '67 borders~D ~D ~D
Well I could be serious with an answer here - but I suspect you already know why Israel should return to the 1948 map.
Well I could be serious with an answer here - but I suspect you already know why Israel should return to the 1948 map.
Yes , but you know they cannot unless the water supply is guaranteed .
more detail is needed then just a mention of the voting record to show a decline in support.
But thats democracy in action isn't it .~;)
What you mean details like the security services protesting to step up the fight against terrorism ? Mentioned it already .~:cheers:
Hence a major stumbling block in the formation of an independent Palenstine State.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
[/quote]Quote:
more detail is needed then just a mention of the voting record to show a decline in support.
But thats democracy in action isn't it .~;)
What you mean details like the security services protesting to step up the fight against terrorism ? Mentioned it already .~:cheers:
Thats close - but what I am looking for is news that the Palenstine People are activitly informing on the terrorist activities of several organizations. That they refuse to allow their children to be brainwashed with propaganda verus truth. That they decide to protest against Hamas and other organizations when a bomb goes off in a crowded Israeli cafe or bus. The vote and the security effort by the PA is a good start - but its not a refutation of terror organizations by the people.
However Israel has to do some things to help encourage the Palestine people to pursue this course.
but what I am looking for is news that the Palenstine People are activitly informing on the terrorist activities of several organizations.
Well plenty of evidence of that , just look at the bodies of "informers" turning up on a regular basis. A very risky business indeed , as it is anywhere else . Especially risky when you cionsider the minimal amount of protection either the Authority or the Occupier can give them . Plus of course the the fact that the people you are helping are just as likely to turn on you in the long term aswell .
That they refuse to allow their children to be brainwashed with propaganda verus truth.
Yep , provide decent education , decent schoolbooks and decent teachers .
If the only school in the area is built by a charitable organisation that is lnked to a political organisation that is linked to a terrorist organisation then of course the parents should send their children to another school , just as they should choose another healthcare facility if the available one has the same links .
But of course if it is the only one then they should deny their children any education or healthcare .:dizzy2:
So that raises another issue doesn't it . Providing alternative choices (at a very local level so that the the restriction of movement measures that are imposed do not remove the parents option of using another facility elsewhee on a reliable basis) .
There is the old saying "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" but if you are offered more than one horse you would have the option of inspecting its teeth wouldn't you .
So if you only have the "evil bastards" doing the "good" work in your area the only choice is to either deny your children the benefits of the "good" work (a very hard choice when it comes to healthcare) or to avail of what is there and tell your children that though they are doing good works they are really evil (that can be confusing for a child or even an adult for that matter).
There are of course in many areas a choice of facility built and run by other foundations and organisations , and they do prove to be more popular .
Though of course some of those are from the UN which some people seem to think is an "evil" organisation so that must be the same as the Hamas ones~D
So the thing is to fill the space where there is a vacuum before Dr. Evil sets up his nefarious hearts and minds program . Or where he has already set up provide a decent alternative .
That they decide to protest against Hamas and other organizations when a bomb goes off in a crowded Israeli cafe or bus.
There are protests and there is a large peace movement . Just as the same is true in Israel when the shoe is on the other foot , so to speak .
Fair enough. Then it also follows that when a civilian apartment block is being used to house terrorists, then that apartment block becomes a military target as well, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Yep Goof , so people should condemn both equally or condemn neither .
Fair enough. I condemn neither.
Goof that has to be one of the worst sigs Ive ever seen and so full of bull~D
On Palistine's behalf, things like September 11th happened. Palestine is a useless sandlot. Israel is one of the most technically advanced nations on earth. The Palestinian people have committed too many crimes against humanity to count, I daresay that it would not only be acceptable but it would be right if Israel were to remove them from their lands, if only to protect Israeli citizens. Palestine has been the number one producer of terrorist organizations, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Is there any point to Palestine? No. Israel had enough land stolen from it (i.e. Sinai), why give up more?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Also, my old landlord was Palestinian and owned about 10 gas stations in North Jersey. A real jerk, if you ask me. :balloon2:
Wow, that was one hell of a post. :stunned:
Would you like a cigarette or are just going to shower off first?
Kaiser - I found your landlord!
His name is Gary. Gary Hamas Al-Jaqueda that is. Look at this guy, he's got terrorist written all over him. Oh the humanity... :fainting:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...lestinegas.jpg
I spoke to the defence dept. and the cruise missiles are ready when you give the I-say-so. Go get 'em lad!
Kaiser:
Nobody stole the Sinai. It was sovereign -- albeit largely empty -- territory of Egypt from the independence of Egypt up through the 1967 "6-days" war, when Israel took control. It was returned, peacefully, to Egyptian sovereignty as a demilitarized zone following the Camp David Accords. From that point forward, support for the "sweep Israel into the sea" approach in Egypt has been minimal - despite Sadat's assassination by reactionaries in his own bodyguard for signing the deal.
Strategically, with Egyptian manpower off the table, the aggressively anti-Israel states in the Middle East have been aware that a conventional war against Israel would be futile. While this hasn't stopped terrorism, it did save a number of lives over the years -- they'd been fighting wars at least once every decade before.
Seamus
P.S. Don't "sugar-coat" your post next time. Let us know what you really feel.~;)