Torture-- Let's Get Real

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Except for my Grandad and his brother, obviously. And another old man I known who was crippled by his treatment in a camp run by people who thought in the same way as you. And all the others who suffered because, at that time, the "morality" in which you believe was the creed of a nation.

Frankly your views disgust me.

There are others who believe the rubbish you spout here. They send suicide bombers into Israeli cafes, or fly planes into famous landmarks. They don't care who they kill or how they do it because the end justifies the means and the enemy is barely human. Why do you not praise them as heroes?

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I disagree with your views as well. I do not believe in spending billions of dollars to have an ongoing war where there is cork on the end of our swords. When you make the decision to go to war, you kill until the other side can't take it anymore. Anything other than all out war is an absurd waste of time and lives. Any form of psychological torture is a humane way of avoiding real physical torture and i think it needs to be implemented in extreme cases. "Water-boarding" for a reason is acceptable, sadistic measures like those taken by soldiers at abu gharib is not.

Tribesman, not one single US servicemen has yet been charged under or punished for violating any of the Geneva Conventions. A small number have been charged under the US's Uniform Code of Military Justice for violating their Rules of Engagement (and some other charges). A much smaller number have actually been punished.

In the case of the two Psyops soldiers that you mentioned, they will face some administrative disciplinary action and not be charged with anything. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?se...rld&id=3674516 In other words, they're not really being punished at all-- and they shouldn't be. And they came out of Fort Bragg, not Fort Benning.

As far as these mysterious references you keep making to "my instructors"-- do you have any military experience or knowledge at all? "My instructors" are there to teach us to kill and to work as a team. They also teach us to follow all orders, including our Rules of Engagement. When we get to the units which we will deploy with, we will recieve classes on certain things as directed by our commander, which will probably include some briefing on general rules we should follow. When we actually deploy we will be fully briefed on our specific Rules of Engagement, which may actually change from day to day. Do you have any more questions?

Slyspy-- If your self-righteous, arm-chair hand-wringing were to be the standard, then "my instructors" would certainly not be the ones you'd want to have "turn me around". As for your concern for my potential future infamy, as the one and only thing I've been advocating here is judicious use of torture in a controlled environment on specific individuals who are likely to yield very useful information, I would say based on that that your concern is unnecessary. I don't feel that I have a predisposition towards random and unnecessary cruelty, and even if I did-- the honest truth is that no matter what a US Soldier does (with a few exceptions), he is very unlikely to get into trouble unless it's on video tape. You can ask "my instructors" about that.

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And anyway, this started as a simple academic discussion of the morality of torture, not whether or not I, as an American Soldier, personally plan on "water-boarding" anyone. Are you galoots capable of staying with the topic of a discussion, or is your repressed, neurotic hatred of the US military so strong that you cannot resist the opportunity to insult and slander the first Soldier, Sailor, or Airman you find willing to discuss?

DA

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..Are you galoots capable of staying with the topic of a discussion, or is your repressed, neurotic hatred of the US military so strong that you cannot resist the opportunity to insult and slander the first Soldier, Sailor, or Airman you find willing to discuss?

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You're trying to de-rail your own debate.. Sounds as if you want to move towards that point instead of discussing "righteous" (OMG!) torture.

No where have I stated that I hate the US. If I have implied such then that is my mistake, I did not intend to. Do not try to hide behind accusations about hatred of your nation or of the military. I live in a naval town, know servicemen in service and retired and I hate none for doing their duty.

TuffStuffMcGruff it all boils down to money does it? That most noble of motives.

I will agree that the restrictive rules of engagement (the real cork on the sword) have made the job in Iraq very difficult, but I'm not sure how allowing torture would help. I would also suggest that the Iraq war itself has served as the cork when it comes to international relations, which surely are of the upmost importance when trying to track down members of an elusive international terror group.

I would still say that if you examine recent history the views you have expressed on warfare are not those associated with the US or the democratic West. They are, however, common in the facist and stalinist states of the last century, and the Islamic terrorists of more recent infamy. Not good company at all.

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Is water boarding not physical torture?

Oh dear Del , they certainly are failing in their instruction then , as you have just made very a serious error about both the geneva conventions and the UCMJ , perhaps you might wish to check your statement .
Then again as you say later .... the honest truth is that no matter what a US Soldier does (with a few exceptions), he is very unlikely to get into trouble unless it's on video tape. You can ask "my instructors" about that.
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you seem to believe that US soldiers are above the law and you believe your instructors are teaching you this , I pity you , and the military that accepts you , you appear to be a prime example of just what the military does not need .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

I pity you

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Why how kind of you, sir, to offer your pity. I hope you will not think it too rude if I do not accept it.

DA

It seems that this thread has reached the stage where the debate moved from the actual topic to how the perticipants of the debate perceive each other.

Thanks for your contribution to the debate :bow:

Topic closed