Catholic Church get's sued over existence of Christ

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Originally Posted by Quietus

Where's the proof?

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Ok, it isn`t a fact, but it isn`t a proof either.

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Does the Flying Spaghetti Monster exist? Yes? No? Or You can't make the determination?

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Maybe, maybe not. A such monster would be easily observable, I imagine, thus its existance is unlikely because of lack of observations. I do not know, however.

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Right, if you wipe the slate clean, there's no God, because there's no proof. You start from Zero. Claiming God means going right to 1. Claiming 1 is not true (no God doesn't mean going left to -1) you simply stay at Zero where the slate is clean.

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No. Then you have made a claim, and the burdon of proof is now upon you, too.
If I claim that I have made cold fusion and tell you how, you might claim that it isn`t possible. Then, you will have to prove that, if I refuse to prove anything. You cannot know if you don`t disprove it.
Same if I claim that I am a god. If you say that I am not, then you`ll have to prove it.

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Originally Posted by Viking

Ok, it isn`t a fact, but it isn`t a proof either.

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Maybe, maybe not. A such monster would be easily observable, I imagine, thus its existance is unlikely because of lack of observations. I do not know, however.

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Leprechauns, Unicorns, Chupacabra, Loch Ness monster, Dragons, Yeti, Chimera, Gargoyles, Minotaurs, et al?

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No. Then you have made a claim, and the burdon of proof is now upon you, too.
If I claim that I have made cold fusion and tell you how, you might claim that it isn`t possible.
Then, you will have to prove that, if I refuse to prove anything. You cannot know if you don`t disprove it.
Same if I claim that I am a god. If you say that I am not, then you`ll have to prove it.

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Ok. Start from Nothing (clean slate).

I say there's earth and there's proof of earth.
I say there's the moon and there's proof of the moon.
I say there's God, where's the proof? None. It doesn't exist.

I say there's earth 2, where's the proof? None. It doesn't exist.
You say cold fusion, where's the proof? None. It doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Quietus

Leprechauns, Unicorns, Chupacabra, Loch Ness monster, Dragons, Yeti, Chimera, Gargoyles, Minotaurs, et al?

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Yes. If you make claim that there is a monster under my bed, then I can just go and have a look and see that it indeed isn`t.
Claim that Yeti exist, and I`ll go and have a look. Himalay is however huge, and to conclude that Yeti doesn`t exist is close to impossible. I could be be lucky and find him if he exist, so proving existance is easier than disproving. But the lack of real evidences when they should have been easily seen, makes their existance unlikely.
Dragons can be disproved by scientifically method, I believe.

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Ok. Start from Nothing (clean slate).

I say there's God, where's the proof? None. It doesn't exist.

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No proof does not equal non-existant. If I claim that there is a black stone on the Moon without having a proof for it, it could still easily exist.

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I say there's earth 2, where's the proof? None. It doesn't exist.
You say cold fusion, where's the proof? None. It doesn't exist.

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I don`t see where you are going.

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Originally Posted by Viking

Yes. If you make claim that there is a monster under my bed, then I can just go and have a look and see that it indeed isn`t.
Claim that Yeti exist, and I`ll go and have a look. Himalay is however huge, and to conclude that Yeti doesn`t exist is close to impossible. I could be be lucky and find him if he exist, so proving existance is easier than disproving. But the lack of real evidences when they should have been easily seen, makes their existance unlikely.
Dragons can be disproved by scientifically method, I believe.

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In short, Yes or No? Or Maybe?

Or better yet, what's the difference between a Leprechaun and God?

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No proof does not equal non-existant. If I claim that there is a black stone on the Moon without having a proof for it, it could still easily exist.

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But you have some proof. The moon is a rock. A black rock is only a rock that absorbs all the visible spectrum, hence dark according to your eyes.

Secondly, black stones do exist. It's only a matter of probability.

What's your proof in god? God doesn't even have a physical property. God is metaphysical or Supernatural.

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I don`t see where you are going.

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You're starting from a positive (1) not a neutral position (0). So, if you say God, that's already a positive. If I say Earth, that's a positive.

If I say Earth 2, that's a positive. What Earth 2? It doesn't exist.

[quote]

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

:focus:

Ahem...

Most futile debate going on right now...

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Viking click here for new thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1028753

:focus:

Ahem...

Most futile debate going on right now...

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Originally Posted by CBR

lets see...
A drastic change in the political situation in the middle east and lots of cities called Alexandria or something Alex that can be dated to that time.

Several successors and their relatives fighting wars for more than a hundred years in that area after his alleged death. etc etc

All of that fitting nicely with what the sources are telling us, but none of these sources are contemporary, as the early ones are AFAIK all lost but used in later sources so we actually do have some names of these early sources.

These later sources do have problems as they are all describing the person Alexander in slightly different ways. Some of the details are without doubt fantasy but to go so far and say that he never existed would be odd.

Oh and Alexnder was supposed to be a son of a god too but I dont think anyone are worshipping Alexander and Zeus these days.


CBR

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hmm, lets see . . .
A drastic change in the religious situation in the middle east and lots of people calling themselves Christians can be dated to that time.

Several sects and schisms carrying on theological disputes for more than two thousand years after his alleged death. etc etc

All of that fitting nicely with what the sources are telling us, but none of these sources are contemporary, as the early ones are AFAIK all lost but probably used in later sources though we may not actually have some names of these early sources.

These later sources do have problems as they are all describing the person Christ in slightly different ways. Some of the details are without doubt fantasy but to go so far and say that he never existed would be odd.

. . . there does seem to be a bit of a double-standard ~:)

Ajax

edit: to add a smily . . . no bad will intended

Hey People.
Befoe you continue try to think of life like this,

If you have faith you can live your life Without Worrying what will happen to you when you die,
You can be happy to die Knowing that You have faith that you will be taken to heaven.

Or you can be like me without faith,
Logically disecting every little bit of life untill you Relize, Theres going to be no life at all in the end.
Any where, No earth no sun no humans no planets. Just One big huge Copmpacted star that has long ago spent its energy And Compacted its self in to A HUGE black hole which will continue to suck matter in to itself.

(any kind of luck its mass will get to great and it will explode creating a nother big bang
"the chances of that happening forever and ever in to eternaty most definatly is not 100%")

Staying awake At night Knowing That all life will end, And thats the end of it all plain SUX!

Try to think of how depressed others may feel when they become to accept your non religious way of thinking.

Let People beleve in religion. I wont say it wont do no harm, Cos we all see the religious Wars, But atleast these days there killing them selfs, And not the inocent pagans or athists which could be and previously were targeted as heratics.

The alternative to religion is cold and bleak.
And really who needs that in this world we live in.

Thanks for that, all is now clear. I am converted to Just a Girlism and I will sit around all day, everyday, for the rest of my life knowing that I can go to heaven because I believe in the God-that-has-a-heaven. I didn't realise I was so unhappy before this revelation. :elephant:

You have a point though, and I don't mind what people believe, until it impinges on my life, or threatens to.

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

hmm, lets see . . .
A drastic change in the religious situation in the middle east and lots of people calling themselves Christians can be dated to that time.

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A new religion came into that existence but it took a few hundred years to actual call it a drastic change so we can't say lots of people were Christians back then. And as Jesus travelled in a very small area how did the religion spread then? By people (especially Paul in the early beginnings) spreading the word and some who liked those words. Pretty much all who converted would never have seen Jesus nor his miracles. And of course Paul just saw Jesus in a vision so he wasnt even a witness but that didnt stop him from preaching his version of Christianity.

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Several sects and schisms carrying on theological disputes for more than two thousand years after his alleged death. etc etc

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And there even older religions that exists today but does that mean their miracles and gods are true too?

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. . . there does seem to be a bit of a double-standard ~:)

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Oh yes indeed. Miracles, gods and visions are apparently to be taken as facts ~:)
Now of course that doesnt mean Jesus never existed and if people want to believe that Jesus is the son of their god then fine by me.


CBR

Jesus Existed. NON debatable IMO.
If he was The son of God is debatable.
"I Hope thats not the topic cos were in for a long night if that 1 kicks off."

And christanity was also helped to be spread by the romans after they "EVENTUALY" accepted it as their cheif religion,
And then all i care to remember about christianity is that It murderd so many pagans and other religions to force the new beileiff,

So i guess All that killing and burning people alive at the steak untill they renounced their faith kinda helped a little With "A drastic change in the religious situation"

But i dont see how thats anything to do with, the issue of if Jesus existed or not.

if you ignore the religious aspects of it
there was a Guy called jesus, And he was a carpenter, he told some good tales of how to live.
People liked him and he was talked about
(no tv's People talk to eachother n stuff)
storys spread and 1/2 the people who told em now never met him.
so jesus did exist,
and the romans killed him,

i dont see how they can say jesus did not exist.

Personally, I fail to see the point in denying the existence of a man called Jesus (or Josephus) who was considered the Son of God by some and who managed to pull off a fairly rare and impressive trick, that of spawning a whole new world religion. His historical existence or lack thereof is entirely irrelevant compared to his existence as a concept.

Now, I'm no big fan of Christianity, but I can dig many of the basic points Jesus is claimed to have preached - "peace and hippie love", as one pundit put it. Plus the promise of universal salvation not tied to one's ethnicity, gender or whatever if one only accepts certain articles of faith - I can appreciate the equal-opportunity nature of that, compared to many others. And I fail to see what's wrong with an ideology of being nice to other people and so on.

'Course, He would probably have a fit if you resurrected him and showed him what his followers eventually ended up doing, but you can hardly fault a prophet for what his distant follower dream up a millenia after his death now can you ?

I also became a staunch agnostic a long time ago once I realized arguing against the existence of the divine is exactly as silly and futile as arguing for it; and moreover it's really just another religious dogma, save one of negation. So I don't bother with that junk and instead save my ammo for instances where disagreeable people seek to employ articles of subjective faith as blunt instruments or arguments in contexts where they are entirely inappropriate, or generally seek to bother other people with them - it is a sad fact that seemingly nine times out of ten those religious enough to put forth arguments based on faith do so for stale, reactionary and discriminatory causes that only ever caused much grief and did nothing good to anyone.

As another pundit recently wrote, "perhaps the problem of the Church is that so many true believers are still a part of it..."

A shame really, as most major religions could do a lot of good - and have done - when they've managed to avoid pungent ossification and sought to genuinely help people.

I wasn't arguing for his miracles or divinity. That's definitely a matter of faith. The double-standard seems to be in simply allowing his existence. We may not have as much evidence for it as we do for many historical personalities, but we have more than we do for many others. Accepting or at least allowing the plausibility of his existence is not the same as accepting the religion attributed to him. It's really not that threatening, though it seems to appear that way to some of us.

Ajax

[QUOTE=Just A Girl]
And then all i care to remember about christianity is that It murderd so many pagans and other religions to force the new beileiff,

So i guess All that killing and burning people alive at the steak untill they renounced their faith kinda helped a little With "A drastic change in the religious situation"
QUOTE]
blaming christians for those past attrocities would be like blameing a german child for the holocaust, compleately ridiculous, its not Jesus's fault that a few of his so called followers have over the years compleately ignored ALL his teachings and deemed it right (when it totally isn't) to kill in the name of christianity.

the ''religious wars'' you hear about like the crusades were faught for power and money and not because of Christianity, should i blame you and say that all atheists are prone to violence if an atheist kills someone? of course not. It is not christianity's fault if a few liars have used christianity as an excuse for evil in their power struggles.

back on topic does anyone know how this case has progressed?

The historicity of Jesus Christ is of the most fundamental importance to Christianity. Unlike the plethora of other dying and rising gods originating in the East in antiquity (with whom he shares many attributes), Christians uniquely claimed that their's was a real, flesh-and-blood human being, walking amongst them, the son of the one god. By casting doubt over his historicity -and it is possible to do so- you undermine a basic concept of Christianity. You can't be a 'Christian', as I was taught, without believing these basic tenets, not a real one anyway.

Personally, I believe that there was someone called Jesus, a radical rabble-rouser (or is that 'wadical wabble-wouser') of the type common in Judea at the time, who was crucified by the Romans. The weight of evidence, however circumstantial and whatever its quality, inclines one to think that he existed. The religion they later constructed around this guy had nothing directly to do with him. But that, as you say, is another matter altogether.

I'll agree with that. Casting doubt on Jesus' existence is attacking a fundamental tenet of Christianity, though it would be impossible to prove his non-existence, as stated earlier in this thread. The amount of evidence for his existence seems sufficient to me, though I don't think we have enough to be 'historically' sure of many details (we can probably say he lived in Judaea, had some following, and was executed, more than that I don't think we can).

Beyond that it comes down to faith, which is outside the realm of history or science. If we start (or continue) arguing for or against Jesus' divinity we'll be arguing within two different paradigms and communication/understanding will be lost. There's no point to that kind of argument. I won't make a claim one way or the other on that issue. My beliefs are my own, and everyone else is welcome to theirs. As to his existence, it may not be certain, but it seems unreasonable to me to deny it.

Ajax

i'm not saying jebus did'nt exist, i'm just saying hre does'nt exist in heaven.

Byzantine Mercenary

Im not saying I hate christians.
All im saying is,
If they had not murderd and tortured so many people for so many years forcing them to convert,
Christianity would have died out a long time ago.

And any way AFAIK, jesus never wished for any 1 to create a religion in his name,
And wasnt he Jewish any way?

Heres some on topic stuff i guess.
Taken from,
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/jesus.htm
"A Palestinian Jew named Jesus was executed by the Roman authorities during the reign of Tiberius (A.D. 14—37), who was Augustus’ successor. At the time, few people paid much attention to what proved to be one of the most pivotal events in world history"

Died out? Rubbish. The imperialism and forced conversion are one of the reasons that Christianity is so prolific, but to say that it would have died out otherwise is grossly presumptuous. One of its greatest periods of growth was when it existed as an illegal cult of noncombatants.

Any illigal or Cult religion seems to gather A following prety fast,
Even these Suicid pact cultists.
but to veer away from that side of the argument. paganism was doing well untill christians came and killed them,
And the 1s they didnt kill had to abandon their belefes and Convince there children to be christians becous they FEARD what would happen to them if they were taught to love the planet and the eliments.
Granted Prehaps Saying it would have "died out" without this "clensing" is a bit of a presumtion,

but then again To say the Aztecs religion , paganism, or the egyptians religion would die out before it happend would have also been a presumtion,
Although this is what happend.

But thats a totaly diferent debate...

back on topic though..
Any feed back on the link i provided.
Shurley it gives more information about the person Known as jesus Christ.
Whos existance we are debating.

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Originally Posted by Just A Girl

Any illigal or Cult religion seems to gather A following prety fast,
Even these Suicid pact cultists.
but to veer away from that side of the argument. paganism was doing well untill christians came and killed them,
And the 1s they didnt kill had to abandon their belefes and Convince there children to be christians becous they FEARD what would happen to them if they were taught to love the planet and the eliments.
Granted Prehaps Saying it would have "died out" without this "clensing" is a bit of a presumtion,

but then again To say the Aztecs religion , paganism, or the egyptians religion would die out before it happend would have also been a presumtion,
Although this is what happend.

But thats a totaly diferent debate...

back on topic though..
Any feed back on the link i provided.
Shurley it gives more information about the person Known as jesus Christ.
Whos existance we are debating.

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christianity was not forced on many of the tribes that took it up, the Goths that sacked rome were christians! Rome was dieing out when christianity was doing a lot of its growing and wouldn't have had the power to force their enemys to change theri beliefs. Christianity in contrast to many of the contemperary roman cults lacked the secrets that were the real draw to such religions and had quite demanding rules for someone who wanted to follow it because its Illegal.

Ive looked at the source you mention, its interesting, but is made up of opinion as much as fact, the truth is he lived such a long time ago that we can't be sure of all the facts, part of the reason that i believe the new testament to give a reasonabley accurate portrail of Jesus is the parts when his teachings contradict the actions of the church and so would have been removed if the bible had been edited by the church.

My Memory's bad.
BUT,

I think i found the roman i was looking 4.

Emperor Constantine had made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, then centered in Constantinople. After his death subsequent imperial decrees were aimed at stamping out Paganism. An edict in 340 AD outlawed pagan practices in the Eastern Empire and was imposed universally in 342. In 346 the practice of pagan worship became punishable by death.
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Now.

I also remember A Christian Roman Marching Across europe Murdering pagans, And burning there sacred trees Which they Worshiped..
This is most evident in saxony.
But I forgotten who it was :(

I thought it was Constantine,
But It could be Some 1 who came after him,

Never the less who ever it was,
They went and Murderd All the pagans and Islamic people they could find (among other religions)

And that is how Christianity spread.

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Originally Posted by Just A Girl

My Memory's bad.
BUT,

I think i found the roman i was looking 4.

Emperor Constantine had made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, then centered in Constantinople. After his death subsequent imperial decrees were aimed at stamping out Paganism. An edict in 340 AD outlawed pagan practices in the Eastern Empire and was imposed universally in 342. In 346 the practice of pagan worship became punishable by death.
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Now.

I also remember A Christian Roman Marching Across europe Murdering pagans, And burning there sacred trees Which they Worshiped..
This is most evident in saxony.
But I forgotten who it was :(

I thought it was Constantine,
But It could be Some 1 who came after him,

Never the less who ever it was,
They went and Murderd All the pagans and Islamic people they could find (among other religions)

And that is how Christianity spread.

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People have always spread their ideas through force in history. It is the most effective way of propagating something. It happens today...

Anyway, I think I've said this once already in this thread:

:focus:

Hmm, I say you all know God exists, but you don´t like that and want to make yourselves believe that he doesn´t exist.
Now that´s a fact. If you want proof, be honest to yourself.~;p
If you can´t find any proof, you´re not honest to yourself.

Also, Jesus existed, if you don´t want to believe that, see above.
The devil is a strong power, as one can see in the amount of work some put into trying to disprove the existence of God and Jesus.

And, the Catholic Church is not a christian organization, if you want to know why, read the bible and compare it to what they do, it´s pretty obvious.

And btw, I´m currently studying, so I´m not completely uneducated and stupid, yet I´m a Christian, sorry to let you know, but thinking and using your brain is not against being christian. As a matter of fact, some people here didn´t use their brain trying to do what I said above.

Actually, the christians didn't really murdered any islamic peoples before the crusades.

The Eastern Roman empire, although they did get embroiled with a war with the muslims, were pretty open, and didn't really persecute them, when muslims lived in their territory.

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

People have always spread their ideas through force in history. It is the most effective way of propagating something. It happens today...

Anyway, I think I've said this once already in this thread:

:focus:

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Just filling time Whilst i wait for a reply on the link i posted Several posts ago,

I beleve it goes a long way towards helping people Understand that Jesus Was Real,

The debate is not Whether he was the son of god, a profet, or Just a man.
Its whether or not he existed at all...
And acording to the Link i provided he did.

11AM. GMT (today) Less than 1 hour away.
Sky, History channel+ 1

Roman 1st century thing.
LOTS about Jesus.
Also about how christanity spread.....

Lets get educated.

Constantine made christianity legal but only converted himself on his death bed. There were also subsequant pagan emperors who tried to wipe the christians out again.

Ive already commented on your link, of course Jesus existed, i don't think there are many people on this thread who would dissagree, the real question as you said is was he what he said he was.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Hmm, I say you all know God exists, but you don´t like that and want to make yourselves believe that he doesn´t exist.
Now that´s a fact. If you want proof, be honest to yourself.~;p
If you can´t find any proof, you´re not honest to yourself.

Also, Jesus existed, if you don´t want to believe that, see above.
The devil is a strong power, as one can see in the amount of work some put into trying to disprove the existence of God and Jesus.

And, the Catholic Church is not a christian organization, if you want to know why, read the bible and compare it to what they do, it´s pretty obvious.

And btw, I´m currently studying, so I´m not completely uneducated and stupid, yet I´m a Christian, sorry to let you know, but thinking and using your brain is not against being christian. As a matter of fact, some people here didn´t use their brain trying to do what I said above.

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my sentiments exactly

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

Constantine made christianity legal but only converted himself on his death bed. There were also subsequant pagan emperors who tried to wipe the christians out again.

Ive already commented on your link, of course Jesus existed, i don't think there are many people on this thread who would dissagree, the real question as you said is was he what he said he was.

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There was only one subsequent pagan emperor, who was actually raised as a Christian, and that was Julian, and he only reigned for three years, hardly enough time to affect the drive towards a Christian establishment over a whole century. He didn't try to wipe out the Christians at all, but to enforce religious tolerance.

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Originally Posted by Red Peasant

There was only one subsequent pagan emperor, who was actually raised as a Christian, and that was Julian, and he only reigned for three years, hardly enough time to affect the drive towards a Christian establishment over a whole century. He didn't try to wipe out the Christians at all, but to enforce religious tolerance.

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Didn't he believe that the rise of christianity was the cause of the recent problems that the roman empire was having and so decided to replace it with paganism again?

if you want to see how a change in the leaders religion can effect the political climate just look at Mary Tudor, she also only reigned for a short time.