You crazy Christians...

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Not to mention, condemning the person themself, not the sin they commit, is a very un-Christian attitude. God reserves judgement of people to himself. Of course you are free to judge an action as right or wrong, but you are supposed to love your brother in spite of his wrongs, not despise him because of them.

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Well said Don. When Christians preach that kind of message, it makes it extremely hard for us Godless heathens to find fault.

Good to have you back, by the way...

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Actually, Lanemerkel might convince me.. if it means I never have to listen to "I'm Still Standing" or "Wake Me Up, Before you Go Go" again". Now Pink and Angelina Jolie being on that list.... hmmm, any home movies? ~:thumb:

All kidding aside, Lanemerkel, Goofball's list just extends to the arts & pop culture. But you're going to lead a very, very sheltered existence indeed if you refuse to expose yourself to any possible contributions offered to our cumulative knowledge base that were made by homosexuals. They've made proportional contributions to math, biology, chemistry, engineering...

Not to mention, condemning the person themself, not the sin they commit, is a very un-Christian attitude. God reserves judgement of people to himself. Of course you are free to judge an action as right or wrong, but you are supposed to love your brother in spite of his wrongs, not despise him because of them.

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I hate the things they do yes, but I don't hate them, however I believe god clearly stated homosexuality is wrong and I am not going to subject myself in those views or to watch a show that only makes fun of christianity in the highest sense of biased and completley wrong views.

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Originally Posted by Lanemerkel1

I hate the things they do yes, but I don't hate them

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Erm...

From another thread:

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Originally Posted by Lanemerkel1

instead of stating my oblivious hatred for gay people, I think I'll just stay out of this thread

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:oops:

Your decision about whether or not to actually watch the television show before you judge it to be anti-Christian is entirely up to you. I was speaking about your statement that you wanted nothing to do with anything created by homosexuals. We all have different defintions of 'love' and 'hate', but I think shunning not only an entire group of people but anything they've ever done in their lives hardly qualifies as the aggressive philos Christ and St. Paul command of us.

I found the movie "Dogma" to be incredibly blasphemous in parts. I also found it to be a vehicle that strengthed my faith. I haven't seen this particular show, and won't, because it's on at the same time as 'Beauty and the Geek'. I don't think need to see what appears to me to be "Desparate Pastors", but it seems like a fairly harmless concept. The only real issue I have the show would be people putting words into Christ's mouth that he didn't actually utter in scripture, even for the right reasons. By the same token, it's not meant to be taken as revealed truth, it's an interpretation.

Watch or don't, but let the anger go amigo.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

Erm...

From another thread:



:oops:

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blah,



I always screw up typing


I meant to say Gayness or the things Gsy People do, but I'm just, blah stupid

So, uh, where does it rub your butt any what they do with each other or how they explain the issue to God when the Final Judgement comes by, anyway ? It's their problem isn't it ?

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Originally Posted by Lanemerkel1

blah,



I always screw up typing


I meant to say Gayness or the things Gsy People do, but I'm just, blah stupid

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Riiiiiihggggggghhhhhttttt.....

~:rolleyes:

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So, uh, where does it rub your butt any what they do with each other or how they explain the issue to God when the Final Judgement comes by, anyway ? It's their problem isn't it ?

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More importantly, why aren't you worrying about what you're doing that offends Him, instead of what they're doing. I think He'd prefer you worry about yourself a little more, and others a little less.

My personal take on Matthew 7:3-5.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

More importantly, why aren't you worrying about what you're doing that offends Him, instead of what they're doing. I think He'd prefer you worry about yourself a little more, and others a little less.

My personal take on Matthew 7:3-5.

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I do worry about myself.



I know no one on earth is perfect but that stuff is just.....wrong

Why ?

Lanemerkel1: So you think it is wrong, others think it is right, or just do not agree with you...

You have stated your opinion once...and we heard you loud and clear...

Well, I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but the behavior itself isn't open to interpretation: by almost any reading of the bible, it is a disallowed practice. One of many I might add before everyone goes reaching for the torches and pitchforks, and it stands among fornication, excessive anger, jealousy and other disallowed actions. What's more, according to St. Paul, there is no heirarchy of sin, they all make us unacceptable in God's eyes. So according to St. Paul, homosexuality is no worse then lusting after some woman you're not married to.

Hence the admonition in Matthew 7 I brought up. There's enough we do in any given day that offends God that we could concern ourselves with for a lifetime that we really don't have time or mental space to be worried about what our neighbors are up to (or shouldn't anyway).

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

What's more, according to St. Paul, there is no heirarchy of sin, they all make us unacceptable in God's eyes. So according to St. Paul, homosexuality is no worse then lusting after some woman you're not married to.

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Informative post, Don. I wasn't aware of that. Which brings up a statement, followed by a question:

Statement:

It is my perception that many Christians seem to have a "special place in their hearts" for homosexuality, in that they rail against it and deplore it more than any other action (with the possible exception of abortion) that their faith classifies as a sin.

Question:

Why do you think this is the case?

Here's my thoughts, though I am hardly qualified to speak as any sort of expert on the subject.

It's not just homosexuality. Christians have a special place in their heart for any sin that they themselves are not currently committing, especially those they cannot envision themselves committing.

Despite being warned repeatedly not to do so, Christians obsess about the acts/ state of grace of those around them. Why? Read, with an honest and hard eye, exactly what Jesus says is expected of His followers. "I assure you that I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it". In other words, all those things that are outlawed in Deuteronomy and Leviticus are still off limits. But, He adds a whole new set of requirements: "forgiving 7 times 70 times", "turning the other cheek", "going the extra mile", etc, etc. He then warns His followers that "every time you refuse to aid even the least of your brethren, you were denying Me". So, there you have it, an almost impossible standard to live up to. Thankfully, He also offers hope by suggesting that there will be 'some' forgiveness, and maybe God won't be quite as harsh as He comes off in the OT.

So, if you're a practicing Christian, who's erred a few times, the first thought to creep into your mind is "well, we can't ALL be going to hell... He wouldn't damn every last one of us". So thought number two is "Well, I'm not as bad as Joe. Joe spits on the sidewalk, I only pick my nose". The implication being, if anybody's going up, it will be you over Joe (who, most likely, will be the one going down).

Only, it doesn't work that way. Each and every one of us is judged not by some arbitrary code, but by the content of our hearts. Worrying what you're doing wrong is taking time away from me getting my own act together, which, a the end of the day, is what Jesus explicitly said He wants me doing. Yes, your sinful behavior is sinful, and I shouldn't say "it's fine" or even start engaging in it myself, as this would be a disservice to you and myself, respectively. But by the same token, who am I to say "Goofball just doesn't measure up. He's going to Hell". Jesus frequently and explicitly warns people against doing that.

I know it sounds trite and pollyanna, but it's true: Love the sinner, hate the sin. And the greatest commandment of all is to love, so if your hatred of the sin is interfering with your ability to love the sinner, forget about what they're doing.

For the record, to most pro-life people, it's not only a morality question (well, you just shouldn't be doing it). Would you stand back and watch brown-eyed people exterminate blue-eyed people (to use an arbitrary distinction). I know YOU don't consider fetuses human beings, but people that are pro-life DO. And if you think about it, we fence-sitters (okay to restrict aspects of the practice but not ban outright) almost always use viability as a criteria. Nobody thinks it's okay to kill a baby, the question is when does humanity begin. I'm REALLY NOT trying to shift the discussion to abortion, I just wanted to address it because you lumped it in with other moral behavioral issues and it doesn't belong there.

And yes, I know, there's a few people around here that will argue conception, and at the other end of the spectrum, first breath. I'm not going to get into all that today...

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I know it sounds trite and pollyanna, but it's true: Love the sinner, hate the sin.

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It sound nothing of the sort. Along with The Golden Rule, it's one of the most sensible doctrines of Christianity.

Well said.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

For the record, to most pro-life people, it's not only a morality question (well, you just shouldn't be doing it). Would you stand back and watch brown-eyed people exterminate blue-eyed people (to use an arbitrary distinction). I know YOU don't consider fetuses human beings, but people that are pro-life DO. And if you think about it, we fence-sitters (okay to restrict aspects of the practice but not ban outright) almost always use viability as a criteria. Nobody thinks it's okay to kill a baby, the question is when does humanity begin. I'm REALLY NOT trying to shift the discussion to abortion, I just wanted to address it because you lumped it in with other moral behavioral issues and it doesn't belong there.

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You're right. I should have been more clear. I simply put the two issues together because abortion seems to me to be the only issue that American Christians are more vocal in their condemnation of than homosexuality. But I realize it's because they believe abortion is murder, not because (for the most part, anyway) they want to dictate to women what they can or cannot do with their bodies.

we're done here. thread closed.