Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.

OT

My weekend was nice, went to the pools with the baby, he loves paddling around.

Nice to see the full spectrum of Australian people at the pools... couple weeks back saw a young muslim lady in a head to toe swimming suit and head scarf, lots of iconic bronzed blonde aussies, east asians, south east asians, indians, the entire spectrum of mums, dads and kids all enjoying the facilities together.

Went to Sydney city yesterday, first time with a pram... I have a totally different feeling for the city and how difficult it would be for someone with a disability to get around. Had Japanese food for lunch... rather good. Went to Kinokuynia to look for books, popped into EB to check out games.

In short had enjoyed the fruits multiculutral weekend. It is all to easy to get tense about some of the tiny differences between cultures and forget to enjoy the many differences that are nice.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

American culture is replete with negative stereotypes about HA. They are portrayed as lazy, shiftless, lawless, thieving, immoral, or violent.

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Boy, your intimate knowledge of the American social climate is just amazing. I wonder just how many websites it took you to read to gather this deep knowledge.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Sounds a lot like the 'morons' (your terminology) whom the Europeans let in from Turkey, the Middle East and Northern Africa, dont it?
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No. Get back to me when 40% of the Latinos in this country want to change the laws here to suit their culture.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Maybe we can learn from each other (and each other's mistakes) but since this is really a matter of comparing Muslim apples and Hispanic oranges, a serious comparative study of issues and politices would be very difficult. Certainly too difficult for me.

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Reading that, after reading this:

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

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Originally Posted by French Frie

Pointless arguing. The latinos are treated much better in Europe than in the US. It's related to the size of the community. I don't know how large is the latinos community in the US, but I'd say larger than 10%, just like there's more than 10% muslims inhabitants in France.

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That sums it up.

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Well, I LOLed. Sums it up, eh? It's been summed up for me now, I reckon.

Apparently I'm a racist who believes the entire universe revolves around her, so I think I'll go and lay down and think about how I am all that matters and how much I hate those dirty Arubs and Mexicans. Adieu!

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Apparently I'm a racist who believes the entire universe revolves around her, so I think I'll go and lay down and think about how I am all that matters and how much I hate those dirty Arubs and Mexicans. Adieu!

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Not around you, but more around your country, it's easy to lose perspective when you live in a country wich is portrayed day after day as the greatest. Now about this quote:

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Pointless arguing. The latinos are treated much better in Europe than in the US. It's related to the size of the community. I don't know how large is the latinos community in the US, but I'd say larger than 10%, just like there's more than 10% muslims inhabitants in France.

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For what I know that's false. Latinamericans are treated bad indiferently in both parts of the world in social sense of the expression, as they are massivelly excluded for the better paid activities, even when having a title and knowning the language of the country in question, and sent to "wash the dishes". This is not a phenomenum exclusive to USA, it happens in Europe and in Oceania, I don't remember the stadistics very well, but the media passed something about the %80 of argentinians (for example) overseas working as "dishwashers" (we call them "sudacas"), many didn't even got a job and returned here after trying again and again on both Europe and USA (cannot speak for Canada). The situation, however, appears to be atenuated in Australia.

Just wondering.

How much effort was put by the European communities and their goverments to help the muslim or other immigrants integrate into their societies? Instead of introducing specific religious laws, IMO a neutral law to prevent random and blantant mocking of each other beliefs and culture would be better.

If the goverment of a European country decides to introduce religous laws to their state, I think (and hope) that it may just be a first step towards easing cultural and religious tension, paving a basic foundation for future effort of helping these people to integrate.

It took alot of years for most multi-cultural countries to achieve a good level of understanding and tolerance, effort must comes from both side along with constant goverment support and responsible media publications.

Questioning and mocking a belief is two different thing.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Have you ever visited the US?

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Yes.... :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

No, my point was that bmolsson made the statement that the US has not found a way to co-exist with Islam unlike Europe which is making the attempt yo comprimise. Well the US isn't having the riots and burnings that Europe is having and you can find that on CNN, BBC, or where ever the hell you want to look for your news. Smoke that.~:smoking:

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The problem with violence is in middle east countries and not Europe itself. The European police forces do have teeth..... ~;)

It's not the mocking itself that is the problem here. It's the purpose of the mocking. Nobody is trying to defend outdated islamic laws, it's just that cartoons used for blasphemy is un-necessary and don't help anyone in creating a better world. Why not making articles and discussions on the subject instead ? Question the religious laws instead of mock them will help the reformation of islam, which we all, including muslims, want to see.....

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Boy, your intimate knowledge of the American social climate is just amazing. I wonder just how many websites it took you to read to gather this deep knowledge.

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Amazing, isn't it? First of all, the info on discrimination comes from your own government, just like all the other data I used. But a mere look at this forum should be enough. We regularly see posts from (or about) Americans calling for more walls and patrols along the Mexican border, accompanied by expose's of how 'they take away our jobs, they don't speak the language and they are parasites on our wealth'. The exact same language we hear from Europeans about (illegal) Muslim immigrants in Europe.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Get back to me when 40% of the Latinos in this country want to change the laws here to suit their culture.

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Get back to me once African Americans stop demanding ever new policies that put an end to job discrimination, racial prolifing and a whole lot more. See, two can play that game. But it is fruitless.

My point is that the U.S. has similar integration problems as Europe, only not with Muslims, but with Latinos and African Americans and maybe some other groups.

The main difference between the position of Latinos in the US and that of Muslims in Europe is in their religion. Islam has become heavily politicised. Catholicism has not, or if it has, then its tenets are not radically different from that of mainstream American society. In the case of Islam they are at odds with mainstream society and particularly with democracy.

Even so, a majority of Muslims in Europe do not belong to the morons who protest against freedom of speech.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

My weekend was nice, went to the pools with the baby, he loves paddling around.

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Heh. ~:pat:

Kids change the whole pace of your life, don't they? BTW I have the same sort of multicult experience in Amsterdam parks, when I take the kids to play there. Mums and Dads come from all over the world, they speak seventeen languages, wear nineteen kinds of dress and eat seventy-five different dishes, but the kids are just kids and play together as if their lives depend on it. In a way, they do depend on it.

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Originally Posted by AquaLurker

Just wondering.

How much effort was put by the European communities and their goverments to help the muslim or other immigrants integrate into their societies? Instead of introducing specific religious laws, IMO a neutral law to prevent random and blantant mocking of each other beliefs and culture would be better.

If the goverment of a European country decides to introduce religous laws to their state, I think (and hope) that it may just be a first step towards easing cultural and religious tension, paving a basic foundation for future effort of helping these people to integrate.

It took alot of years for most multi-cultural countries to achieve a good level of understanding and tolerance, effort must comes from both side along with constant goverment support and responsible media publications.

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Here, the Scottish Executive does quite a lot to help immigrants integrate, but Muslims resist efforts. Instead of trying integration, the Local Authorities fork up a few million pounds to build mosques in an alien eastern style to bow to the will of the Muslim minority and ruin efforts at integration all for a few muslim votes at the polling stations... Introducing religious laws is a step back to the days when the canon laws of the Church were on par with the laws of the state and the Inquisition ran rampant... Perhaps if they do that then a new police force can be formed to hunt down offenders and they could be called inquisitors and they can burn people at the stakes... If religious tension is to be eased, the onus should be on the imams and senior clerics and most importantly the average muslim worshipper who want reform to go about reforming the more archaic laws, just like John Calvin and Martin Luther (I think)...

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Questioning and mocking a belief are two different things.

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That may be so, but in the modern world people should be able to do both without facing prosecution as long as they do not lie, something already covered by libel and slander, I think. If one reacts violently to a little bit of mockery of one's beliefs then it is no better than a 14 year old boy who knifes an elderly man for telling the hypothetical boy to pick up rubbish he has dropped on the ground...

I wish people would stop using that Telegraph poll to say "40% of your Muslims want sharia law in your country". Polls are bunkum, this one was commissioned by a newspaper with a sample of 500. So we can confidently sate that, when asked a question framed I know-not how, 200 Muslims stated a preference for sharia law. Big deal.

As a point of interest it is amazing how so many people speak of Muslims as a race on this board (I noticed a "good" example by Malcolm earlier).

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

I wish people would stop using that Telegraph poll to say "40% of your Muslims want sharia law in your country". Polls are bunkum, this one was commissioned by a newspaper with a sample of 500. So we can confidently sate that, when asked a question framed I know-not how, 200 Muslims stated a preference for sharia law. Big deal.

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Good point, the polls I used were much larger in scale (38000 people), and used many statistical properties such as SRS to eliminate variablility.

Besides, I found intersting tidbits in the article:

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Four out of ten British Muslims want Sharia, or Islamic law, introduced in predominantly Muslim parts of the country, a poll has showed.

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But 91% of British Muslims said they feel loyal to the United Kingdom.

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Really now, I think if a poll was to be done for British Christians, the loyalty to the country would be the same...

So although the UK is trying to make an inclusive society, there are Muslims that want not only to greate Ghettos for themselves, but then have different sets of laws for themselves and the rest of the coutry.

How does this work? Corporal / capital punishment in certain boroughs? I drink down the wrong road and I can get fined? Different schools? What?

And can people be convited of crimes in a borough that were committed outside, or vice versa?

Everyone is has the same laws (in principle) before the Monarch, and people can't opt in and out as they see fit.

So Muslims are "significantly disloyal"... Aha! ~;)

~:smoking:

Is there any articles regarding the type of Islamic laws that may be introduce?

What kind of effort were used to improve the relations ship between the Islamic immigrants and the locals? It would shed some light in their approach regarding intergration policy, if building mosque or temples alone could actually help ease tension, the world would have been a eaiser place to live.

The usual reactions of "we are bowing down to muslim minority" when it comes to goverment effort in easing tensions, shed some light regarding Europeans community and their mind set. It does hints that the refusal to intergration comes from both side.


"That may be so, but in the modern world people should be able to do both without facing prosecution as long as they do not lie, something already covered by libel and slander, I think. If one reacts violently to a little bit of mockery of one's beliefs then it is no better than a 14 year old boy who knifes an elderly man for telling the hypothetical boy to pick up rubbish he has dropped on the ground..."

And also in an ideal world...
Individuals too, would react violently when the button is pushed too often, not that I support violence by the way, but people are still people. If only the racial/religious tension happening in Europe is relevent to the hypotheical example...things would have been easier.

When is the last time the government built a church? Not for some time, I'd wager. No, these things are the remit of individuals to fund. Why should mosques be any different? If Muslims want them, a community can fund one, or get a sponsor. The added benefit is they can rightly say that they've done it themselves and no one is bowing down to anyone.

Integration can easily mean different things to different people. I would say integration is that other integrate to the society they are joining, not that the society they want to join has to expend money to make the newcomers happy.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

When is the last time the government built a church? Not for some time, I'd wager

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There is a beautifull old church in Amsterdam that needed renovation, sorry no $$$ for you. 150 meters from there the biggest mosk in europe is currently being build with taxpayers money :wall:

Like I say, the problems may lies with the goverment approach towards intergration and mindset of both locals and Islamic immigrant community. By building the mosque, the goverment shows it good will towards the Islamic immigrants...but It would have been great if building a Mosque can also improve the relation between the two communities...:juggle2:

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Originally Posted by AquaLurker

Like I say, the problems may lies with the goverment approach towards intergration and mindset of both locals and Islamic immigrant community. By building the mosque, the goverment shows it good will towards the Islamic immigrants...but It would have been great if building a Mosque can also improve the relation between the two communities...:juggle2:

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Well I didn't find the words of the imam : 'the minarettes are our bajonettes, the (round roofs) are our helmets, the mosques are our barracks and our believers our soldiers' much reason for such optimism to be honest.

why show goodwill for that kind of trash.

No, by building a mosque, the government is showing favoritism to one religion over another.

If a youth center had been built that all youth can enjoy then that would possibly help integration; aiding only one side causes the divide to increase.

The day human nature says "Oh, look at that! They're getting a new mosque whereas our church is falling down. That's nice - I think we should pay more taxes to build another one. Fancy a pint? Oh, better not, this area 's governed under Sharia Law... Isn't it great how well we're integrated..."

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

No, by building a mosque, the government is showing favoritism to one religion over another.

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shut up and kiss me.

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American culture is replete with negative stereotypes about HA. They are portrayed as lazy, shiftless, lawless, thieving, immoral, or violent.

Amazing, isn't it? First of all, the info on discrimination comes from your own government, just like all the other data I used. But a mere look at this forum should be enough. We regularly see posts from (or about) Americans calling for more walls and patrols along the Mexican border, accompanied by expose's of how 'they take away our jobs, they don't speak the language and they are parasites on our wealth'. The exact same language we hear from Europeans about (illegal) Muslim immigrants in Europe.

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Well stupid ole racist me. I've actually worked long hours with Hispanic migrant workers in one of the whitest, Protestant, and conservative towns in my state. Did I see any racism? Did I hear the managers running the operation make derisive comments? Absolutely not. I have never heard anything of what you describe anywhere in the USA.
I'm sure the majority of immigrants are liked the ones I worked with; hard working. But I, along with many other people who value national soveriegnty, want a way to keep people from illegally entering the country. That doesn't make me racist.

Crazed Rabbit

~:shock: ~:pat: ~:cheers: :knuddel: :laugh4:

~:smoking:

It makes you a Nationalist, and I'm proud to say so am I: I've no interest in what colour your skin is, your sexual preference or where your ancestral home is. If you want to be a part of my country, are proud to be here then Great! If you don't well then you'd better be on a work permit, as I've no desire for you to stay here.

That doesn't mean you agree with whatever the latest government is saying / doing of course, as in a democracy that might mean the population has to emmigrate every 5 years or so...

~:smoking:

My point is just by building a Mosque does not help both communities to improve relationship...

Its about "approach":juggle2: and "constant effort":book: from the goverment part... which may help in building a healthy "Mindset":inquisitive: between both communties...

If the goverment accepted these immigrants they are responsible with the wellfare of these immigrants. If the "democratic" people of the country helps in making that decision, they are equally responsible to help them intergrate into the society, or else "Democracy" is nothing more then a word.

Well I oppose the idea of introducing religious law into any nation or state, I do support any law the prevents people from irresponsible behaviour that may promotes intolerance.

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Originally Posted by AquaLurker

Like I say, the problems may lies with the goverment approach towards intergration and mindset of both locals and Islamic immigrant community. By building the mosque, the goverment shows it good will towards the Islamic immigrants...but It would have been great if building a Mosque can also improve the relation between the two communities...:juggle2:

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The Problem lies with the minority not wishing to integrate, not with the government going about integration the wrong way. The government has better things to do than to make the citizens accept immigrants and children thereof. The native folk generally do not ostracise and discriminate against immigrants, rather they ignore the fact that they are immigrants and treat them as they would a native. Some take an active part in trying to help immigrants integrate. The native mindset is fine, and that of most immigrants is fine. It is the majority muslim mindset which guards against integration.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

As a point of interest it is amazing how so many people speak of Muslims as a race on this board (I noticed a "good" example by Malcolm earlier).

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I was referring to Muslims as followers of a religion. Few muslims embraced the national culture. Most, even though considerable number were born here and a few are the children of Anglo-saxon converts to Islam, stay in cliques, socialise mostly with other muslims with whom they go to the mosk. Hindis, Sikhs, Christians, Athiests, and other religious immigrants all seem to integrate fine. Muslims habitually stick with muslims out of choice, not because the government does not help them mix with the native community. In Glasgow, muslims are even asking that a State School be made into a Muslim State School. Here, an Islamic Centre is going to be built on the site of my school's annex which will provide a gathering and socialising place for muslims.

The Muslim mindset to guard against intergration does not form by itself. Instead of insisting that "they are the problem", maybe its better to review where what went wrong from past efforts...

Articles regarding these aspects the "communities effort (local/immigrants)", "goverment effort" and "reactions" would definately shed some lights.

"The government has better things to do than to make the citizens accept immigrants and children thereof."

This is part of the "better things to do".

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Originally Posted by AquaLurker

The Muslim mindset to guard against intergration does not form by itself. Instead of insisting that "they are the problem", maybe its better to review where what went wrong from past efforts...

Articles regarding these aspects the "communities effort (local/immigrants)", "goverment effort" and "reactions" would definately shed some lights.

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"The government has better things to do than to make the citizens accept immigrants and children thereof."

This is part of the "better things to do".

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No, "better things to do" referred to welfare, defence, schools, immigration, hospitals, transport and such infrastructure, the environment, rural affairs, foreign affairs, the Commonwealth, fisheries, Scottish culture, I could go on...

Her Britannic Majesty's Government and Scottish Executive have measures for integration which seem to help all other immigrants fine, only Muslim immigrants and their children seem to be reluctant to follow. They want special treatment and, according to you, they should get special integration measures also.

Where does it come from? It doesn't appear to be based on where the person is from, their age or skin colour.

It is probably something to do with their values are quite different from those typically found in the UK: we let our women do what they want, relationships are not forced on couples, speech is free as are the majority of people's actions. Other religions are not as prescriptive, and so have little trouble adapting.

~:smoking:

No, "better things to do" referred to welfare, defence, schools, immigration, hospitals, transport and such infrastructure, the environment, rural affairs, foreign affairs, the Commonwealth, fisheries, Scottish culture, I could go on...

How about social stability?

Her Britannic Majesty's Government and Scottish Executive have measures for integration which seem to help all other immigrants fine, only Muslim immigrants and their children seem to be reluctant to follow. They want special treatment and, according to you, they should get special integration measures also.

Instead of reviewing past efforts and form more suitable approach, you prefer your goverment to go down the same road and fail again? I do hope that your views dose not represent that your goverment.

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Originally Posted by AquaLurker

Instead of reviewing past efforts and form more suitable approach, you prefer your goverment to go down the same road and fail again? I do hope that your views dose not represent that your goverment.

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Instead of sticking with successful efforts, you think that millions of taxpayers' sterling should be spent on helping a minority of immigrants integrate where most other immigrants are fine? I hope that your views do not represent those of Her Majesty's Government.