Oblivion gone gold

So the fact that you can go into Hell and kill the demons there having just started the game but at later levels you find it harder doesn't bother you? Doesn't ruin the immersion, the suspension of disbelief. Hey, I'm Joe Bloggs. I suck with a bow and arrow but killed the hellspawn anyway while the town guard, twenty levels above me (they are not levelled) cowered. Or: Hey I'm Joe Bloggs. I still suck with a bow and arrow, but reached level nine primarily through my non-combat skills. Now the hellspawn own me, but I can make a mean night-eye potion!

The levelling is a good idea, but badly implemented.

I could accept the NPC levelling if only they did away with the loot and equipment levelling. Well-armed bandits and poor rewards ruin part of the RPG fun for me - do I take the easy dungeon for ordinary loot or risk the tough one for the money. Oh, and try being a low level thief. Break into a shop storeroom and realise all they have down there are sandals and linen trousers. Why try to steal wealth when there is none to steal?

Somebody on the offical forums likened Oblivion's system to a socialist utopia: no matter how much you strive, everyone is forced into equality.

Why play an RPG if improving your character achieves nothing? Why clear a dungeon if the reward is negligible and the baddies essentially the same? With the scaling system as it is Oblivion plays like and FPS with axes and the worst grinding elements of a bad MMORPG. Which is a shame because the presentation is so good.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Why play an RPG if improving your character achieves nothing?

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For that matter, why have a levelling system at all if levelling up doesn't help your character?

Might as well just give the character fixed stats at the outset and be done with it.

I think that makes it easier for me not to buy the game.
Now I´m going to wait and save the money for Gothic 3.
I really like the rather beliveable world the Gothic series represented so far.
This scaling thing sounds really bad to me, like levelling doesn´t really make sense, really owning someone sometimes can be fun and hordes of Orks were usually different in Gothic 2 even without scaling.
Most of my arguments have already been posted here, like no sense clearing a dungeon, you never feel like a hero etc.
If one wanted to have no leveling for realism(SEAL-comparison) then I´d also want no magic, no monsters and a completely realistic world, which would also be fun in it´s own way, but I think I will get Armed Assault for that.

I love the scaling. I can play straight away without being killed by a giant rat or whatever.

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Originally Posted by screwtype

For that matter, why have a levelling system at all if levelling up doesn't help your character?

Might as well just give the character fixed stats at the outset and be done with it.

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Precisely. Why have the role-playing elements at all if they are so constrained by the game mechanics. Why not just make a mission based FPS?

BDC - that is what I thought at first. But then I realised that every opponent was that giant rat, just in a different guise. No real variety. I shall try some mods.

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Originally Posted by screwtype

For that matter, why have a levelling system at all if levelling up doesn't help your character?

Might as well just give the character fixed stats at the outset and be done with it.

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In Oblivion, levelling helps you in several ways: levelling per se enables you to:
(a) to boost your attributes: these can make your character much more able (more mana, more damage per attack, better speed) etc.
(b) gives you more hit points
(c) opens up better loot.
But in MW/Oblivion, levelling per se is less important than say in DnD, because your skills rise incrementally between levels. This in turn allows you to do a lot more - cast more spells, fight better etc. To say you have fixed stats is just wrong. There are lots of interesting choices to make - whether to boost combat, magic or stealth skills, with lots of variations within each category and a really nice freedom to effectively multi-class.

All the scaling does is mean that you fight appropriate enemies, so the challenge and rewards are appropriate. Enemies not too hard/easy and rewards not too pitiful or too uber.

I'm not sure I am getting all these complaints. In DnD, enemies are also scaled - there are tables of random monsters for your level and you enter dungeons designed for your level. In wargames, when your panzer is upgraded from a PzIII to a Panther, you don't expect to still face BT-7s.

No doubt it could be better implemented, but for me so far, it not the killer flaw other people find it to be.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

So the fact that you can go into Hell and kill the demons there having just started the game but at later levels you find it harder doesn't bother you? Doesn't ruin the immersion, the suspension of disbelief.

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Well, if it does get so much harder that it is not doable, then it would definitely bother me. Oblivion and Kvatch at level 1 were hard enough for me. But as regards immersion, no. That a level one character could beat stunted skamps is fine (it's not particularly easy). That more powerful demons start to appear later in the game could just be seen as an escalating threat. It's harder to rationalise the bandits and animals getting more powerful, but who cares? Who wants to bother to fight a wolf or solitary bandit in leather armour when you are level 20? The premise of the main plot and the sidequests are so much more immersive, engaging and interesting than Morrowind ever was.

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Who wants to bother to fight a wolf or solitary bandit in leather armour when you are level 20?

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I do.~;)

Just a pity, because I´d like to play an adventure again, just don´t want to spend 40€ for an adventure that has an unbelievable world(IMO).
A demo may help, but I guess there will never be one.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I do.~;)

Just a pity, because I´d like to play an adventure again, just don´t want to spend 40€ for an adventure that has an unbelievable world(IMO).
A demo may help, but I guess there will never be one.

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You know it has magic in it? :p

Not to mention anyone going so rapidly (in game time even) from nothing to supergod is hardly believeable anyway is it?

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Originally Posted by BDC

You know it has magic in it? :p

Not to mention anyone going so rapidly (in game time even) from nothing to supergod is hardly believeable anyway is it?

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That´s not really what I meant, Gothic has magic too, but the whole world has a much better feel it seems.
They´re both fantasy games, but if you compare character development/leveling to the difference between a Navy SEAL and an office worker and state that leveling should be removed for realism, then I say why not get Armed Assault, because it has a lot more realism than any fantasy game.

Husar perhaps means a world which is internally consistent, which helps the suspension of disbelief which is so important to so many rpg players. You can include as much magic as you like so long as the world seems logical and plausible in other respects. For Simon dying and reloading kills this immersion. For myself the scaled NPCs so the same. Not to mention that I loved the variety of Morrowind and am disappointed that Bethseda have returned to their older level scaling system.

I don't care if the guy I'm fighting is 20 levels above or below me - let me find out by myself, let me the player judge whether or not to tackle him. Don't do a Windows and assume that you know best. When you can clear out a nest of supposedly fearsome baddies like daedra or vampires at an early level then IMO there is something wrong with the game. I should think "uh-oh, vampires eek" at level three, not "vampires, this could take a while to clear out". Why are the populace so scared if a bunch of fishwives could tackle the spawn of Hell?

I believe the scaling is a useful way to stop the game getting too easy in the way that Morrowind did (although when it did you could have fun playing around). But why are the lower limits restricted as well? Why not just have, say, Arena fighters which are always level 15 (like the guards are always 20) unless the player is higher than that, in which case they are scaled? It just means that essentially nothing need be scarey, nothing more of a challenge than that first scamp you killed. Unless of course you play a sneaky class, in which case the enemies may well get too powerful for you too handle.

Yeah, I just got it, and it took me a good... at least 4 hours of tweaking and searching on the main forums to get my... well I'm not sure what graphics card it is, it used to say GeForce 5600 FX, but after I updated the drivers, it now says Geforce 5200 FX... Anyway, it runs well, though I do have some difficulty when outside, especially when on horse back.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

I don't care if the guy I'm fighting is 20 levels above or below me - let me find out by myself, let me the player judge whether or not to tackle him. Don't do a Windows and assume that you know best. When you can clear out a nest of supposedly fearsome baddies like daedra or vampires at an early level then IMO there is something wrong with the game. I should think "uh-oh, vampires eek" at level three, not "vampires, this could take a while to clear out". Why are the populace so scared if a bunch of fishwives could tackle the spawn of Hell?

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There's already a mod out that randomizes creature/loot levels instead of scaling- sounds like you might want to check it out. Im not sure how elegant it is (havent tried it), but Im sure they'll only get better over time. I guess I like having some things scaled, but others I dont so much. The only time it really annoys me is with woodland creatures/bandits. No matter what, it seems, a riff-raff bandit is always going to give me a fight. Once at a higher level, I think it'd be fun just to be able to devestate weak bandits who dont know who they're messing with. :skull:


For anyone who doesnt have it already- I think the UI Mod is pretty much a must have. You can see 2-3x as much of your inventory without having to scroll through it, and you can see more than double the amount of the world map without having to scroll it- awesome. Also, it has options to turn off compass/pointer functionality for those that dont like it. Also, (while its technically cheating I guess) I like the mod that lightens the weight of alchemy ingredients. It's so easy to get loaded down with them, and you need so many to try to raise your alchemy skill via practicing- so Im glad to be able to carry more of them.

Of course, if you got the Xbox360 version- no mods for you. ~;p

I wish you guys would stop posting about this game because it sounds interesting, and I have ZERO gaming hours available to check it out right now... between real life, GalCiv2, and my social gaming with the S.O. in WoW.

Anyway, this debate about the leveling system is interesting. I think I would miss the fear factor of being too lowbie to tackle something. That can keep a game interesting. The WoW MMOG steers players to areas with mobs and quests that are generally suited to your level, but there are a few places where they toss in wandering high-level mobs that are way, way above the "right" level for the area, just to keep things interesting. For example, the roaming Alliance NPC horsemen in the southern Barrens, or that Son of Arugal (sp?) werewolf thing in Silverpine. I'll never forget the first time I got killed by him. The immediate reaction was "WTF, that's not fair!! He's WAY over my level!" But then I learned to keep an eye out and avoid him, and it made that area a lot more exciting to travel around in. I also had the pleasure of going back at a higher level and killing him, for pure revenge, and outside of any official quest line in the game.

An area-based leveling system like WoW also makes you feel special and important when you level up, and then have a reason to re-visit lower level areas (there are several quests that require this). In WoW the aggro radius is reduced as you level, so you can run right past mobs that are vastly lower level than you are. Even if you do trigger one, a swipe or two of your axe will take it out. It makes you feel like you've accomplished something, when these are the same mobs you had a hard time dealing with at lower levels.

I remember some of the quests in other non-auto-scaling RPG's too, like Baldur's Gate and NWN, where I'd discover some uber bad guy and realize I wasn't really ready yet. There was a strong sense of accomplishment when I finally did level up enough to defeat him (or her).

On the other hand.... area-based leveling does lock you out of large parts of the game world (or quest lines), when you first start out. In a game where the goal is to let the player roam around and discover encounters anywhere, I guess it might make sense. I'd have to play the game to see whether I really liked this idea.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Husar perhaps means a world which is internally consistent, which helps the suspension of disbelief which is so important to so many rpg players. You can include as much magic as you like so long as the world seems logical and plausible in other respects. For Simon dying and reloading kills this immersion. For myself the scaled NPCs so the same. Not to mention that I loved the variety of Morrowind and am disappointed that Bethseda have returned to their older level scaling system.

I don't care if the guy I'm fighting is 20 levels above or below me - let me find out by myself, let me the player judge whether or not to tackle him. Don't do a Windows and assume that you know best. When you can clear out a nest of supposedly fearsome baddies like daedra or vampires at an early level then IMO there is something wrong with the game. I should think "uh-oh, vampires eek" at level three, not "vampires, this could take a while to clear out". Why are the populace so scared if a bunch of fishwives could tackle the spawn of Hell?

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That´s exactly what I meant.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Zenicetus

Anyway, this debate about the leveling system is interesting. I think I would miss the fear factor of being too lowbie to tackle something. That can keep a game interesting. The WoW MMOG steers players to areas with mobs and quests that are generally suited to your level, but there are a few places where they toss in wandering high-level mobs that are way, way above the "right" level for the area, just to keep things interesting. For example, the roaming Alliance NPC horsemen in the southern Barrens, or that Son of Arugal (sp?) werewolf thing in Silverpine. I'll never forget the first time I got killed by him. The immediate reaction was "WTF, that's not fair!! He's WAY over my level!" But then I learned to keep an eye out and avoid him, and it made that area a lot more exciting to travel around in. I also had the pleasure of going back at a higher level and killing him, for pure revenge, and outside of any official quest line in the game.

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This also.

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Originally Posted by Zenicetus

On the other hand.... area-based leveling does lock you out of large parts of the game world (or quest lines), when you first start out. In a game where the goal is to let the player roam around and discover encounters anywhere, I guess it might make sense. I'd have to play the game to see whether I really liked this idea.

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In Gothic 2(I have to admit the Gothic series is about the only RPG I really invested some time into) you have to get to a castle that is besieged by Orcs which are way too strong for you to beat at that time and it adds some thrill to run past them and try to evade them until you finally reach the safe castle.

I tried oblivion again this weekend, and really tried to get my money's worth.

Just isn't going to happen. THere's obviously a lot of time put into voice acting, quest background story, dialog, etc. But the quests themselves are incredibly dull. You run into some dungeon and just hack things. I've never once bothered to look at the "active effects" screen. And the enemies are all carbon copies of either: 1. melee attacker; 2. ranged attacker. If former, hack, block, hack. If latter, strafe, shoot, strafe. Even the supposed "boss" monsters (of which there are very few, and invariably unimpressive) fall into category 1 or 2. No interesting abilties; no interesting attacks; no interesting battles. Never had to carefully consider what my enemy was doing before deciding on a course of action. Never really had to think, period.

The one nice thing I discovered is that the main quest is considerably shorter than I first thought -- probably <10 hours if you go straight through. (It's a little sad that I was happy when I realized this) THe not so nice thing is that it's still pretty boring and repetitive.

The two final battles are illustrative. (perhaps minor spoilers ahead, but I will be speaking in complete generalities)

There is literally nothing new in the second to last battle. I didn't even pay any attention to waht the "boss" was doing. Just pounded him to death. (and I don't have particularly good gear -- though the concept of "good gear" is made moot by the leveling system, I suppose) The last battle is even more sad. There is a vast amount of stuff going around you, but all you have to do is walk into a certain building, then WATCH SOMEONE ELSE beat up the final bad guy. THe rest is just eye-candy. Yikes, I thought *I* was the hero? And my last task is about as interesting as going to a bad movie?

I'm genuinely puzzled as to how this game got such good reviews. I have no doubt there's a contingent that enjoys this sort of game as kind of an "adventure-game+" But as a crpg, the gameplay deficiencies, to me, are incredibly obvious and fun-killing. That gothic 2 gets an average 78% rating while obvliion hovers around 95% is a travesty.

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Originally Posted by Husar

That´s exactly what I meant.:2thumbsup:



This also.


In Gothic 2(I have to admit the Gothic series is about the only RPG I really invested some time into) you have to get to a castle that is besieged by Orcs which are way too strong for you to beat at that time and it adds some thrill to run past them and try to evade them until you finally reach the safe castle.

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See, tahts' the nice thing about it. You COULD have gone that route (sneaking around and hiding to gain access to the castle).

Or, if you were like me, you could have explored the rest of the world, acquired experience and powerful items, and smashed a route through the orc army en route to the castle. The point is you had real choices, insofar as character development was concerned, and those choices had an impact on the game.

That is startlingly missing in oblivion.

What is really missing is impressive loot, epic weapons and a sense of challenge....

Dorkus, I'd have to dissagree, the enemies are quite varried. I went up against an Orc with a warhammer in the Arena and the first time I used my Dai-Katana she smashed me up, so I went back in with Katana and shield.

The combat system and the power attacks, especially the disarming one, are great. Whats missing is the basic directional attacks from Morrowind, especially the stab for getting around shields.

As to the menus, well you can use the F keys to access the different screens, it pays to read the readme.

Wigferth - Yes the enemies are varied in appearance. But not in function, which I think is what Dorkus is getting at. Having to try two weapon combos before downing an enemy is not an example of varied enemies.

Quite agree with the fighting - it is well done, but a little over engineered in some instances.

BDC - Loot, weapons, challenge, variety, sense of purpose, character and a sense of the heroic are all missing. What I mean is, IMO of course, the gameplay is poor. The quality engine, though badly optimised just like Morrowind, can be built on no doubt.

Xiahou - There are a number of mods to fix NPC and loot scaling already out. Trouble is that they are not unified and not necessarily complete or compatible with each other. They are also rather clunky. But it is a start and eventually Oblivion will be the thoroughly modded and customisable joy that Morrowind is. Bethseda have at least done that part well!

Edit:
Anyone who tried vanilla unpatched, unmodded Morrowind on the typical computer of 2003 (or was it 2002?) will know that it too was sadly lacking in gameplay with an engine more sluggish than its use of resources suggested.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Xiahou - There are a number of mods to fix NPC and loot scaling already out. Trouble is that they are not unified and not necessarily complete or compatible with each other. They are also rather clunky. But it is a start and eventually Oblivion will be the thoroughly modded and customisable joy that Morrowind is. Bethseda have at least done that part well!

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If they ever make one that sets some creatures/areas/loot at static levels while still allowing for some scaling- it'd definitely get my interest. I just dont know how long that'd take to create- if ever.

I'd like to see some remote areas of wilderness or dungeons that are just too tough for low level characters, while areas right around the Imperial city, for example, should be relatively safe for low levels (I mean, there's patrols everywhere near the capitol right?). But, it'd also be nice to see some randomization and scaling too- Just so things dont get too predictable and monotonous.

In the mean time though, Im still having fun with the vanilla scaling despite its shortcomings. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

In the mean time though, Im still having fun with the vanilla scaling despite its shortcomings. :bow:

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Yes, Oblivion is really growing on me. Some of the sidequests are excellent - "Shadow over Hackdirt" (from Chorroll) really got to me. After I resolved the quest the stealthy way, I decided to come back and get medieval.~:angry:

And Bethesda really have come on in leaps and bounds in terms of making the NPCs seem more believable. There are a lot of nice little details in the dialogue and "radiant AI". For example, after rescuing 3 fighters I'd helped out for the Fighters Guild, I later bumped into them in a place far away. In another case, I was bemused to get the Thieves Guild parting farewell ("May the shadow hide you") from a mage in the Bravil Mage Guild but the recommendation quest soon made sense of that. The game is full of little details like that - they don't affect the gameplay, but they do make the whole experience more immersive.

But the really big improvement for me is that there is very little boring "make work" kind of stuff which made up 90% of my time in Morrowind. Nearly all the time spent in the game is talking (which is surprisingly enjoyable) and fighting. The insta-travel means you only walk if you want to explore and have encounters. The question directions on your map mean there is less wandering around getting lost. Even micro-managing my levelling up (to always get +5 attribute) seems much less effort this time round - although maybe that's me, not the game. In these respects, it's one of the most well designed and polished CRPGs I've played.

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Originally Posted by econ21

And Bethesda really have come on in leaps and bounds in terms of making the NPCs seem more believable. There are a lot of nice little details in the dialogue and "radiant AI". For example, after rescuing 3 fighters I'd helped out for the Fighters Guild, I later bumped into them in a place far away. In another case, I was bemused to get the Thieves Guild parting farewell ("May the shadow hide you") from a mage in the Bravil Mage Guild but the recommendation quest soon made sense of that. The game is full of little details like that - they don't affect the gameplay, but they do make the whole experience more immersive.

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There are no doubt a lot of nice elements such as this. But for every nice element, there are also utterly ridiculous ones

Example (possibly minor spoilers): after the final and most important battle in oblivion (the dimension, not the game), I triumphantly returned to my home dimension to be serenaded by the emperor, and called the greatest hero in cyrodil's forces, etc. We returned to the imperial city for a final ceremony.... and I was confronted by a guardsmen who accused me of breaking the law!! Apparently, in the battle my summon accidentally killed one of the imperial militia, and I was being charged with murder on my triumphant return! Since I didn't have the 1k gold to pay in fines, and since I knew I was no match for the guard (who are always 10 levels above the player character), despite having just saved my entire dimension, I was forced to go to jail!! The greatest hero of the empire, the man who single-handedly destroyed all of the oblivion gates, was being bullied and sent to jail by an ordinary town guard!!!

Of course, the emperor and the triumphant returning army completely ignored this. Apparently, they were all too scared of the guardsmen as well, since they (unlike the guards) were not 10 levels above me, but rather approximately my level.

There are countless other examples similar to this one. A deeper character interaction system is not necessarily a better one, as complexity increases the number of possible "absurd" results. I would much prefer a simple system that does not make you curse or laugh out loud, to a complex one that does.

Xiahou - That is exactly what I want. If the idea of scaling is to maintain a challenge then why not start NPCs with a base level and only scale if the NPC is tougher than that? Your vampires could be, say, level 15 right from the word go, thus making their lairs extremely difficult for newer characters. Then once the PC reaches level 15 the vampires begin to scale, to maintain a challenge at these higher levels. As it is have frightening vampires being slaughtered by a greenhorn is not very convincing.

Dorkus - please be a mate to anyone reading this who hasn't progressed that far and keep spoilers to a minimum.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Dorkus - please be a mate to anyone reading this who hasn't progressed that far and keep spoilers to a minimum.

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1. I wrote that there might be spoilers prior to any point where I discuss the game in specifics.

2. Having said that, I don't think anything I wrote was a spoiler. It's all made abundantly apparent early on in the game, (e.g. that you will be destroying oblivion gates)

3. If it was a minor spoiler, it was necessary for making my point. Simply saying "the battles in this game stink" is contentless.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Xiahou - That is exactly what I want. If the idea of scaling is to maintain a challenge then why not start NPCs with a base level and only scale if the NPC is tougher than that? Your vampires could be, say, level 15 right from the word go, thus making their lairs extremely difficult for newer characters. Then once the PC reaches level 15 the vampires begin to scale, to maintain a challenge at these higher levels. As it is have frightening vampires being slaughtered by a greenhorn is not very convincing.

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Yeah, that sounds like a more sensible sort of scaling system.

Another way to make this kind of game a bit more interesting might be to have a bit of variation in the levels of given monsters. So, say, a giant rat might vary between level 10 and level 15. It would mean you could never be quite sure just how difficult it will be to polish off the critter this time around.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Dorkus - please be a mate to anyone reading this who hasn't progressed that far and keep spoilers to a minimum.

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He's warned about possible spoilers and nothing he's said has bothered me anyway.

At this point it seems useful to drop a reminder of our spoiler tags; then everyone is happy.

An example:
[spoil ]Darth Vader is Luke's father![/spoil ]
Just remove the spaces before the last brackets.

And in practice:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm waiting until the game has been patched at least once before I take much notice of it. I had Morrowind at release, and while I enjoyed it I still cringe to remember the bugs and constant crashes, and the lousy performance. In this version I don't like the idea of enemy levelling applied so totally, and the persuasion and lock picking mini games are a big frog turn off.

Besides, I'm still playing GalCiv 2 and have no time to play that much, let alone time for another.

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Originally Posted by Dorkus

Apparently, in the battle my summon accidentally killed one of the imperial militia, and I was being charged with murder on my triumphant return!

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Well, I can see that being annoying. [Although it does remind me of a lot of real life cases where "heroes" are brought down to the ground. In the contemporary UK army and police force, for example, outstanding figures often seem to be later dragged into the dirt by dubious charges and allegations.] In Morrowind, I've been charged for some dubious crimes I'm not even aware of committing at the time - I really think they need a "no friendly fire" mechanic for melee combat, like Mount and Blade has, as I find it impossible to help allies without sometimes accidently whacking them.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Loot, weapons, challenge, variety, sense of purpose, character and a sense of the heroic are all missing.

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It sounds like we are playing a different game, as I find all 7 present in abundance. Oh well, different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I am enjyoing this game immensely!!! :2thumbsup:

Quid

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

...and the persuasion and lock picking mini games are a big frog turn off.

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Well, at least the lock picking game is mildly fun to me, even if totally unbalanced. The persuasion mini-game is still both stupid and annoying though- I groan every time I need to persuade someone.

I still maintain that a system in which the hero never becomes more powerful than the enemies he fights is broken. A system in which a low level player can slay beasties which are supposed to be terrifying is broken. A system in which petty thieves can be routinely armed with equipment of the rarest, most expensive kind, is broken. A system which, for some character types especially, works better if you never level up is broken.

Thank goodness TES is highly moddable, and people are at work already.