Theoretical Draft

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Originally Posted by alexanderofmacedon

He didn't say a foreign army was invading us...

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Correct, but this sub-discussion started when Soly said that in the hypothetical case that the USA got invaded, he would still dodge the draft.
The only case I can imagine my government would order a draft would be an invasion or an imminent threat thereof, so I'd yell and cuss about it and then serve. If my government turned imperial and started invading nations at will, I'd refuse.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Last time there was a draft it was Americans invading homes, unleashing hell on innocent people and killing and torturing their friends, family, neighbours and countrymen...

You're still acting like you'll be involved in a 'noble' war, while if the draft would ever be used again, it's doubtful it will be for defensive purposes...

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The posts you are replying to are about a hypothetical scenario when your own country gets invaded. What are you going to do? Sit at home and pray that your country gets saved by those who are willing stand up and fight? Send an army of strawmen, like you're doing now?

GC, honestly..

you can lead a horse to water, but i refuse to beat that horse to death. something like that..

then you are asking the wrong person, as i have never spoken about your scenario specifically. the whole point of my posts has been that the pro-draftees have been unfairly trying to twist the discussion into that of defending against invasion and then leveling indictments. to try to lump all negative respondents in this thread under that rubric is pure BS, and you know it. dead horses and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

The posts you are replying to are about a hypothetical scenario when your own country gets invaded. What are you going to do? Sit at home and pray that your country gets saved by those who are willing stand up and fight? Send an army of strawmen, like you're doing now?

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Uh no, they were about draft-dodging. people opposed to the draft were said to be immoral cowards. The type of war wasn't specified.

So answer this question: If you were an American back in the day and gor drafted for 'nam, how would you react ?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I think you're just trying to avoid the larger question.

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actually, i avoided the smaller question (the invasion one you were asking). but it's just a philosophical aversion to strawmen, nothing personal. ~;)

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Originally Posted by ghost908

They are going to lynch you at U of M.

:laugh4:

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I know...:laugh4:

I should say that waving an OSU flag :2thumbsup:...

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

I know...:laugh4:

I should say that waving an OSU flag :2thumbsup:...

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While burning the MI flag and saving "God Bless George Bush and America!"

So basicly you are saying that you have run for politics but you dont trust politics.Do you trust yourself?
Are you having difficulty with reading today Kagemusha ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Some things are just a value of measuring one's character.
And it is a sad statement of character that so far 24 people have voted that they would accept the draft with no hesitation .
That is the character of a muppet .

The post said Your country has just declared war on another country.
it didn't say your country had been invaded , it didn't say your familly is going to be ravaged or killed , it didn't say your way of life had been threatened , it just said your politicians want you to fight someone else for them and they have found themselves short of the resources to do it .

Anyone who will accept that without hesitation needs their head examined .

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By being a citizen of the United State's I beleive the defense of her homeland and interests is more important that my life, or anyone's indivual life. I'd die for her.

It's a sad thing that anyone would even think about deserting their nation in it's time of need. Such men are not even real men, they are cowards. And cowards die many times before their death, real men die just once.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

So basicly you are saying that you have run for politics but you dont trust politics.Do you trust yourself?
Are you having difficulty with reading today Kagemusha ?

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My bad tribesman.:embarassed: I miss understood you when you sayed: "been there done that".I understood you were talking about Politics, instead moving to another Nation.So it seems im ideal kind of Bloghead to be a puppet of Politics becouse i cant understand basic sentences in English.Well you play what you got:stupido:

It's a sad thing that anyone would even think about deserting their nation in it's time of need.
What need Capo ? A nation is just somewhere you live , if the people that run the place where you live want you to do something then they had better make a damn convincing case for it .
For anyone to accept things unquestioningly (as in without hesitation in the poll) then that is just blind stupidity .
Politicians make mistakes , politicians lie , if a politician wants to put me in a position where I might kill or be killed then there hell of a lot of questions I want answered before I will make that commitment .
And they had better have some damn convincing answers to those questions .

Such men are not even real men, they are cowards. cowards die many times before their death, real men die just once.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: yeah , and real men smoke Marlboro :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
What is this , the silly catchphrase competition ?:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

It's a sad thing that anyone would even think about deserting their nation in it's time of need.
What need Capo ? A nation is just somewhere you live , if the people that run the place where you live want you to do something then they had better make a damn convincing case for it .
For anyone to accept things unquestioningly (as in without hesitation in the poll) then that is just blind stupidity .
Politicians make mistakes , politicians lie , if a politician wants to put me in a position where I might kill or be killed then there hell of a lot of questions I want answered before I will make that commitment .
And they had better have some damn convincing answers to those questions .

Such men are not even real men, they are cowards. cowards die many times before their death, real men die just once.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: yeah , and real men smoke Marlboro :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
What is this , the silly catchphrase competition ?:dizzy2:

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But what makes you think an average, run of the mill civilian knows what the hell is going on in government? What makes you think they could even begin to comprehend it?

By being a citizen of the United States you have certain duties, and one is to answer the draft if your nation deems it nessissary to call you up. If you are too much of a coward to do your duties, than renouce your citizenship. Being a citizen is a privaladge, not a right, and with it comes responsibilities.

All I know is that if we were ever in battle, I'd rather go solo than have a man like you watching my back. I'd more likely be shot by you than an enemy.

I would join the draft after unsuccessfully treing to get out of it. their is a quote by otto von bismark which i like: "Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think hard before starting a war."
-Otto Von Bismarck
war is hell and anyone who doesn't think that is sadly mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

A nation is an agreement. The state provides you with a good life and protection, and in return you pay taxes and help defend the state when the time comes. To breach that agreement is loathesome.

Certainly someone in the US could not look around and say they don't owe the state something? Our high standard of living was achieved not just because of American ingenuity, but because Americans have always held themselves that ancient agreement between man and nation. To pretend otherwise is just selfish, and it shames me to think that these selfish pigs who claim no responsibility to their nation continue to reap the benefits of it.

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Is it really? Well you learn something new everyday. It is interesting that a "libertarian" with such a low opinion of central government is so eager to sign up for enslavement by the state and so scathing of those who would not. Especially using the argument that going to war would protect your family and friends. Where do you live? Eugene is it not? Would your fellow citizens be better of with a Paris or a Stalingrad scenario? In the first the state lost and the nation fell but the people lived on. In the second, well...

Yet another badly worded Org poll quickly turned into a cat-fight by certain individuals.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

A nation is an agreement. The state provides you with a good life and protection, and in return you pay taxes and help defend the state when the time comes. To breach that agreement is loathesome.

Certainly someone in the US could not look around and say they don't owe the state something? Our high standard of living was achieved not just because of American ingenuity, but because Americans have always held themselves that ancient agreement between man and nation. To pretend otherwise is just selfish, and it shames me to think that these selfish pigs who claim no responsibility to their nation continue to reap the benefits of it.

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Hand on heart, flag waving, logical... umm but what does the history books have to say:

Vietnam hippies, WWII objectors, Civil War (which nation were they supposed to be fighting for and protecting?)... lets go right back to the founding of the nation...

Weren't the Americans fighting their nation ... the British Empire over paying taxes. And the Americans of the day had a fairly prosperous standard of living.

The founding fathers had lots of benefits and decided to rebel and set up a nation to avoid taxes...So by your statement the founding fathers of the USA were selfish pigs who claimed no reponsibility to the nation that set up their benefits. What a loathesome bunch of men, those people who rejected taxes that were raised to defend the state. :laugh4:

It seems the ancient agreement is the same as all others... broken when it suits those in power, while those who are not are bound to it so much that they blind themselves to why they are.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Where the devil did I say anything about enslavement? All societies are agreements. If you are not willing to do your part, the government should not have to do its part. I am all for decentralization, but that by no means negates the necessity of the societal agreement--it should simply be on a smaller scale, more suited to its local culture.

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Is conscription not enslavement by the State then? On your smaller scale would Eugene burn?

Edit: Biting the hand that feeds is all about perspective. From over here the USA has already done that once, and it was called rebellion.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Are you saying it's time for a new contract? If so, let's see a rebellion, instead of just biting the hand that feeds.

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Not every country has been founded on rebellion or warfare.

That's the advantage of democracy, you get to rebel at the ballot box... in fact in Australia you get fined if you don't turn up at the ballot box on the day of voting... you don't have to vote, but the vast majority once there decide that they should, and a fair proportion of those decide that since they will vote once they turn up that they should have a grasp of who and why they will vote for someone.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Are you saying it's time for a new contract? If so, let's see a rebellion, instead of just biting the hand that feeds.

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This just came to me, but isn't the nation, in the respects that you are speaking about, just a coincidence of the powerful and powerless? The societal agreement argument seems sound only when applied to more ancient nations; nations that were different from ours in many respects. For one, the culture, the will, the society of the aristocratic class WAS the nation. The aristocrats were the only TRUE people. Under these premises I can see the societal agreement being in effect, just as it would be in the VERY beginnings of a "state" as a small group of relatively equal people.

As for the draft question, I would of course comply, but I would have nothing to identify with (some of you were invoking "justice" here) regardless of whether the war was offensive or defensive, or whatever it may be... and this is I think, largely because of my main statement above. I have no doubt, also, that this "absence of things to identify with" in modernized nations negatively impacts the quality of our daily lives.

Being a citizen is a privaladge, not a right
Really , then what did you do to earn your privilige Capo ???? You got it by being born .

So with all the rubbish about cowards and selfish pigs . What a bunch of unthinking sheep who bleat without hesitation because some idiot in government tells them it is their duty to bleat .
The mentality of the herd .:no:

Herd? I bet you'd say that even if we could prove to you that we come to our "Mindless Patriotism" through a completely independant thought process, wouldn't you?

The option was "without hesitation" GC . That removes the thought process from the situation and is just a knee-jerk reaction based on pre-conception of what you are being asked to do .
They say jump , and you do without thinking if not jumping makes more sense .
You have an agreement with your politicians , and that agreement requires you to question them , not only at election time , but all the time and over everything .
It is selfish pigs (to use your phrase) who accept what their leaders tell them without questioning it and it is cowards who will follow them blindly .

I have already considered the situation at length and find absolutely no reason to hesitate.

So if your government sent you off to Gambia because Gambia had raised the price of peanut oil , there would be no reason to hesitate . Or the people of Paraguay had elected a leader that your government didn't like, there was no reason to hesitate as you have decided to follow your government , because .......well because they are your government and you have already chosen to follow blindly .

My statement applied specifically to a being drafted for defense of the homeland.
Two questions , why is your country being invaded , and why is the government implementing a draft ?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

But what makes you think an average, run of the mill civilian knows what the hell is going on in government? What makes you think they could even begin to comprehend it?

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A very very good point, that. so doesn't this make it doubly important for the average citizen not to blindly follow the executive?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

In the revolutionary war we forwent the hand entirely. If we had decided to stay with you and then continue to cause trouble, it would have been biting the hand that feeds. Accepting the food, but giving the hand a bite on the way out.

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Like I said, it is all about perspective. Anyway you failed to answer my questions. Oh, and I would prefer not to be bound by a "contract" based on "common sense" thanks. You wonder why people are arguing against you? Could it be that you are basing your decicision on a contract that only exists in your head and are somehow trying to tell others that it binds them too? I don't criticise you for having this belief, but it blinds you totally. Besides which dying in the dirt is the same whatever your ideals.

I can't vote. There is no option to describe what I would do. It all depends on the war. If it was a war that I believed to be just, then I would do my duty to serve without hesitation. If it was a war that I believed to be unjust, then I would likewise do my duty and deny the immoral government that declared it the use of my services.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

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Originally Posted by solypsist

i'm outta there. even if the US is invaded, I'm still leaving. this is the only life i have, and i'm not throwing it away because someone else says i need to risk it.

remember folks, "Now I want you to remember that no ******* ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb ******* die for his country." - Gen. Patton.

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There you have it folks. The liberal mindset at work. He even managed to take a Patton quote out of context.

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"Liberal mindset at work?"

Really?

I am arguably one of the most "liberal" members of the Org (at least by American standards), and I volunteered to put life and limb at risk and serve in my country's army. So I guess you're wrong on that one, aren't you?

I also notice you went on to throw around words like "coward" in some subsequent posts.

What have you ever done that gives you the right to call anybody a coward? Sure, you talk a pretty good game about "serving without hesitation," but until your money has been where your mouth says you'd be, maybe you should back off on the rhetoric a bit, eh?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

But what makes you think an average, run of the mill civilian knows what the hell is going on in government? What makes you think they could even begin to comprehend it?

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In that case, I guess we should trash the whole idea of democracy.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

I can't vote. There is no option to describe what I would do. It all depends on the war. If it was a war that I believed to be just, then I would do my duty to serve without hesitation. If it was a war that I believed to be unjust, then I would likewise do my duty and deny the immoral government that declared it the use of my services.

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I would agree with you, but the simple fact often isn't so clear.

You could have an immoral government, perhaps even one that started the dman war, but you could at the same time have the enemy willing to waste the civilian lives of all those who agreed as well as those who opposed the immoral government.

So would you then serve to protect against that?
See, morality comes in different sizes and compositions.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

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Originally Posted by Goofball

I can't vote. There is no option to describe what I would do. It all depends on the war. If it was a war that I believed to be just, then I would do my duty to serve without hesitation. If it was a war that I believed to be unjust, then I would likewise do my duty and deny the immoral government that declared it the use of my services.

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I would agree with you, but the simple fact often isn't so clear.

You could have an immoral government, perhaps even one that started the dman war, but you could at the same time have the enemy willing to waste the civilian lives of all those who agreed as well as those who opposed the immoral government.

So would you then serve to protect against that?
See, morality comes in different sizes and compositions.

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I didn't say my choice would depend on the government. I said my choice would depend on the war.

For example, I believe the Bush administration to have acted immorally on a number of issues. But were I an American and a foreign enemy invaded and that same Bush administration drafted me, then I would willingly serve because the war itself was just, even if the government was a bunch of crooks and lowlifes.

Make sense?

It's not, it was a hypothetical.
Yeah and hypothetically why is your country being invaded ?
And more importantly why is there a draft , surely the only reason there would have to be a draft is if the government was so crap that no one wanted to support it voluntarily .
Come on , you said you had considered the situation.... I have already considered the situation at length and find absolutely no reason to hesitate.
.....So what length of consideration did you actually give it ?

It appears the amount of consideration amounts to ..."err ....yeah ok I'll go with that " :no:

You could have an immoral government, perhaps even one that started the dman war, but you could at the same time have the enemy willing to waste the civilian lives of all those who agreed as well as those who opposed the immoral government.

There you go . Kraxis has added another consideration to be taken into account before people make their descision "without hesitation" .:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

You're making my point for me. Democracy is an especially elaborate system of contracts and agreements. If someone doesn't want to be drafted, they ought to vote for someone who's going to change the law.

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Nope, something as major as a draft comming in to law should be decided by referendum. And failing that it should be a major platform of the party before it gets voted in... no "Oh we just got voted in and didn't decide to inform you, but here is the draft".