Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Rusher
The point isn't about Christianity, it is about the nature of God and how people should be converted. Mohammed converted more people through violence than any other, so why not use his example? The Baltic Crusades converted people by the sword, yes, but small numbers of people and not using Mohammed's example works far more effectively as an argument.
So you are saying that Muhammad "converted...people through violence"?
How? Do you claim that he put swords to people's necks and said: "Convert or die"?
How then would you explain his conquest of Mecca (a Pagan city), where he granted amnesty to the Pagans? Muhammad was able to conquer much of the Hijaz and have control of Arabia (though only nominally Eastern Arabia) by the time he died.
I would agree that Muhammad was a military man, both a soldier and a general (along with other things). I would agree that he conquered places. That he commanded, and fought in raids. I completely agree that the reason for his fighting was his religion. I completely disagree that he "converted people through violence".
Others agree with me:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951
The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.
De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923.
History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.
Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.
I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.
James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70.
"No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience."
Now, can we make the claim that his followers "converted people with violence"? Again I would say (barring the sparing incidents here and there) no.
They certainly conquered land as was the norm. They fought offensive wars with other empires as was the norm. But why is it, that the places conquered by Muslims in the mid 7th century, did not have a majority Muslim population until 2 centuries afterwards? Why is it that the Ummayad Dynasty actually discouraged conversion to Islam to collect the tax, and because people were still converting, to make sure they would get taxes, they continued to tax the converts to Islam?
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Henry V
Well Islam did come up with the concept originally.
Of what? "Holy War"? One can look as far back to the Old Testament for wars fought in God's name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
There is a whole horde of quotes available. That one was just a peach.
Precisely.
Anyway, from the many quotes I've read, most call for a condemnation/apology from the Pope. Many question the Pope's knowledge of Islam. Many disagree with Manuel II's view on Islam, and seek to clarify/refute it with intelligent comments. Not much rabble-rousing here. Of course, my earlier point of the ease of generalizations concerning Muslims/Islam is further supported. Just like in the cartoon crisis, it was "radical Imam's" (note: not "some radical Imams") that caused it to explode. Well, certainly that leaves out many of the Imams who actually stepped into the crowds and tried to push the crowds back... :juggle2:
Now, you have a government official, from a country that the Pope hasn't been so nice to (don't let Turkey join EU) that compares him to two notorious fascists. Gah! Guess he's been taking cues from the Bush administration of far left anti-Bush people. You have a Taliban spokesman trying to put a "crusade" spin on it joining up with Israel/America. Wow, that can't be related to any political occurrence. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
He didn't. Read the speech.
Banquo's Ghost, of course I read the speech. :wink:
Certainly I agree with you, the Pope's theme was not to deal with complexities of jihad, but he used this quote, quite offensive I might add.
I don't want to get into the relationship of reason and religious faith (I personally hold that faith is irrational [note: unlike many here, I am not holding "irrational" in a negative connotation; in fact, I personally am more inclined to belief in a God than to disbelief. I am just saying that reason is not the best method to use in faith of God] although I understand that there are quite good arguments within rational theology and reformed epistemology that contradict my view).
I also do not want to get into the Pope's assertion on whether religious faith is compatible with war or not (personally, at least concerning the Old Testament and Quran [which covers our big three] I believe that it is linked in some way).
But the speech was offensive. Quoting a vitriolic part of Mein Kampf to support another unrelated theme you are making is still offensive. You may not think so, but then our view on this issue are irrevocable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Because the biggest problem with religion facing us today is the unwillingness of mainstream Muslims to clamp down on jihadists and fundamentalists. Whilst examining the lessons of the Crusades is a worthwhile academic exercise in self-flagellation, Muslim extremism is killing people right now. The inability of Muslim leaders to accept this, preferring instead to inflame violent feelings by this kind of over-reaction (one gets the impression that swathes of them were just waiting for the Pope to make any remark that could remotely be interpreted as anti-Muslim and had their 'anger' ready prepared) means that once again, debate on this real issue is being stifled by 'outrage' - where are the riots against the suicide bombers, the comparison of jihadists to Hitler? Why should we be taking lectures from the likes of Pervez Musharraf on freedom of speech?
I'll leave it to the Muslims to elaborate on how insulting remarks about Muhammad hurt them personally.
Anyway, what on earth is this talk of "unwillingness of mainstream Muslims to clamp down on jihadists" talk? How would they go about doing this? Should the average Muslim on the street go up to a guy with a suicide vest and say "hey buddy, I'm going to clamp down on you today!"? I've also heard many a comment on the Org about the "silence of mainstream Muslims" to condemn terrorism. I get a thought of a guy wearing earplugs and having people all around him scream and shout while he rants on about the "deafening silence".
For every fatwa in support of terrorism (coming from the same select few), thousands of fatwas are made against it.
A moment of silence (no pun intended) in an Iranian soccer stadium, calls to donate blood in Qatar, condemnation from all kinds of groups, from the ultra-secular to guys only slightly less insane than al-Qaeda themselves... Damn the silence is just deafening... :rolleyes: (watch this smiley for about 20 seconds straight). But of course, the Muslim response to this is engraved in the minds of thousands (or more) as dancing in the streets.
Heck, in Jordan (the country with the highest support of bin Laden/suicide bombings in 2005) they protested against the Zarqawi bombings.
Now this statement is just odd: "The inability of Muslim leaders to accept this, preferring instead to inflame violent feelings by this kind of over-reaction".
Inflame violent feelings? Most call for an apology. Most also claim that contrary to the the Pope's quotes, Islam/Muhammad are not as Manuel claims. This is good. It's important that Muslim leaders tell their followers that Islam isn't violent. Makes it harder for bin Laden and crew...
“(His) betray a clear ignorance of Islam and attribute to the faith things which have nothing to do with it”.
Sheikh Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi
The head of Cairo's Al Azhar University
And here's a little something about the dialogue:
“(The pope's remarks) do nothing to further dialogue between world religions and civilizations.”
Sheikh Mohammed
Sunni Islam's top authority
He makes a good point.... :wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
I'm hardly anti-muslim, but I agree with the essence of what was being said by Manuel too. He was facing a violent attack by religious zealots, and in that context, his arguments have force. Why did Mohammed (p.b.u.h.) suddenly drop the idea of non-violent conversion to urge conversion by the sword? These are important points to examine, because we have Islamic theologians telling us that Islam is a peaceful religion, but it's fine to bomb infidels into powder.
As for the Muhammad conversion by the sword, see above. I think I've sufficiently covered that. The fact is Banquo, the majority of the theologians, the highest authority theologians, actually don't say what you attribute. See the "thousand for one" comment.
By the way, the "religious zealots" comment, which I think you refer to the Ottomans as, is laughable. Certainly if the Byzantines were a strong military power at the time, they would be going for all those great cities... :wink:
Those rational Byzantines exemplifying all that is good and dandy vs. the evil scum. :laugh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
The reaction seems to be limited so far, which is good. But the rabble-rousing over such a small thing will have increased anger amongst many in the Muslim world. They have much to get angry over, but not this. And this kind of reaction has another effect - people such as myself, who try to have an understanding of muslim issues, get very angry ourselves over their inability to seek understanding and dialogue without screaming 'victim.' I have found myself today thinking untypically 'Fragony-esque' thoughts because of the stupidity of the muslim leaders' reaction. That's sad.
The reaction is:
Two churches (wrong ones :rolleyes:) hit by a couple of Molotov cocktails, both in Palestinian territories.
One to several effigies burned.
Peaceful protests.
Once again, I believe the generalizations made of the Imams as well as the Muslim population are very easy for us to make. It's apparent on this thread.
Thankfully, the Pope has made a brilliant compromise (not apologizing) but making it clear that he never meant to insult Islam, and also that he "esteems Islam".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Muslims need to accept this, and shut the heck up.
*Reenkmaestro read about Fred Phelps latest protest*
"Christians need to shut the heck up."
Exhausting, but I hope I've made my point...
09-16-2006, 20:20
Geoffrey S
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
I indeed have read it.
Why the heck would he say something like this? He knew very well that the Muslims are like Murphs law. They interpret it the worst possiblr case, and this is what happened.
So now one should keep in mind the sensibilities of those who will take something entirely out of context and run rampant with it? I'm sorry, but the line of not offending an ethnic group has to be drawn somewhere.
Perhaps the quote can be viewed as an attack on Islam, though it was (to me) clearly intended to contrast the use of violence to spread religion in general with the use of reason an dialogue; however, this has been acknowledged by Benedict and he has apologised for any offense that has resulted. But to take one phrase, a quote at that, and ignore the rest of a speech promoting reasonable thoughts, in favour of instigating an outrage among people who aren't even going to read the speech is extremely irresponsible.
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
It hardly matters how he chose to explain how he intended it to be recieved. What does matter is the fact that the Pope quoted a nice piece of the ignorance and hate that was the mark of the day of Manuel II, focusing especially on Islam. How did he think it was going to be interpreted?
But, then, yes... what alternative did he have on the subject on why rational dialogue wins out over violent religious reactionism but deist or atheist minds? So he had to rip out a piece of writing well over six hundred years old as a commentary on Islam. That is ignorance, as ignorant as is the reaction of the mobs that rage against what he said.
09-16-2006, 21:06
Banquo's Ghost
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
Exhausting, but I hope I've made my point...
As always, you argue well and with rigour.
I shall reflect on some of your points, but I do not find myself persuaded in this instance.
Nonetheless, thank you for a reasoned and thoughtful response.
:bow:
09-16-2006, 21:37
Silver Rusher
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Reenk, that was a very long and compelling argument. You must be proud.
However, Mohammed himself did forcefully convert people, whether the Islamic Empire after him did or didn't. The Banu Qurayza are the best example of this. Your quotes say that most of the conversion wasn't done by the sword; sure, but some of it was. Not just that, but it is mostly referring to past Mohammed's life.
And what about this? It is from the Qu'ran:
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
OK, bad example. But my point stands.
09-16-2006, 22:10
Reenk Roink
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Rusher
However, Mohammed himself did forcefully convert people, whether the Islamic Empire after him did or didn't. The Banu Qurayza are the best example of this. Your quotes say that most of the conversion wasn't done by the sword; sure, but some of it was. Not just that, but it is mostly referring to past Mohammed's life.
The Banu Qurayza are not a good example Silver Rusher.
For one, Muhammad did not pass judgement on the fate of the Banu Qurayza, it was ibn Muadh. Muhammad had passed judgement for the Banu Qaynuqa and Banu Nadir, where they were exiled with their belongings.
The reason for why ibn Muadh judged as he did is up to debate. He said he made his choice due to the Torah. However, he was also wounded by an arrow in the seige.
And again, the judgement was to kill all warriors. It wasn't a "convert or die" thing.
09-16-2006, 22:59
lancelot
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
How does Christianity actually inspire violence???
If you were reading from the words of Christ alone, you must require a pretty warped mind to interpret violence from his words...it may not be a case of inspiration, but a case of a person's own predisposition imposed over a religious context and presented as religious truth which is the case with many things that happened when the Church used "un-Christian" violence.
"Love thy neighbour" = Only those who are Christians spared from violence?
"Love those who despise you" = I'm sure that means retaliate with a Crusade...no doubt
"Turn the other cheek" - uncover the Kalashnikov beneath your jacket flap and blast the infidel to hell
"My commandment to you: Love each other" - Death to infidels
"I leave you my peace" - Impose an inquisition, force Jews to convert, burn all heretics on the stake
How could I be wrong, Jesus might be a Zealot/Sicarii warlord after all...gah!!
.
Actually one of the Popes (forget which one) was asked this in the time of the Northern Crusades and he made very clear that love thy neighbour only extended as far as 'love thy Christian neighbour'
09-16-2006, 23:12
Reenk Roink
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Things seem to be quieting down:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAUDI ARAB NEWS
It is true that Catholicism over the centuries has had an uneasy relationship with Islam, as it has with Judaism and Protestantism. But in recent years, especially under the reign of John Paul II, the relations between the Vatican and the Muslim world have improved considerably through interfaith dialogue. It would indeed be unfortunate if Pope Benedict XVI's comments this week...signal a departure from his late predecessor's interfaith vision. Similarly, it would be unfortunate if the Muslim world over-reacts to this faux pas in a wave of emotion, or worse, as we saw with some of the responses to deeply offensive anti-Islamic cartoons earlier this year...
Perhaps the best response is for the Muslim world to rise above the occasion. Those who are calling for the cancellation of the Pope's visit to Turkey in November this year - his first official visit to a Muslim country - are simply misguided and wrong...In a post-9/11 world, the terminology of faith has unfortunately regressed on all sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TURKEY'S DAILY NEWS
We fully agree with religious affairs directorate chief, Ali Bardakoglu, that the remarks of the Pope were "extraordinarily worrying, saddening and unfortunate" and could offend any Muslim anywhere around the globe. But we just disagree with this vendetta-like approach of continuing to abuse the Pope after his spokesman made a statement saying that he respected Islam and did not intend to offend Muslims but just wanted to express his opposition to violence in religion...The example cited by the Pope was wrong, all right. But for God's sake, as rational people we must try to read in between the lines of the subsequent Vatican statement as well and realise how sorry the head of the Catholic Church is about the mess he created. We have more than sufficient tensions between cultures. We should try to avoid a new one.
09-16-2006, 23:26
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
It occurs to me that there is another interpretation here. The Pope is taking an apropriate example of conquest and conversion, from 600 years ago. Therefore the Emperor's comments do not refer to any current religion, in the same way that the Crusades do not really reflect on Christianity
Whether people were actually converted by force early Muslims saw it as their duty to conquer, in order to rule and convert the world.
Given that for much of his life Manuel's people were besieged by Muslims and he was himself forced to take part in attacks on his own people while a hostage of a Turkish Sultan I think his viewpoint is justified.
Added to which, let me ask: What has Islam provided that is good and new?
09-17-2006, 01:08
Lemur
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
My favorite statement to come out of this whole affair:
"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence," - Pakistan Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam.
Priceless. It's heartening to know that idiocy is another human universal.
09-17-2006, 08:22
Duke of Gloucester
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
My view on this is that the Pope's quotation was very unwise because it was insulting, because it did not accurately describe Islam's notion of Jihad and because he could just as easily have made his point without the quotation. He is right to apologise, but unfortunately the dammage is done.
Reenk argues that almost all of the reaction in the Moslem world has sensible and proportional. From Moslem faith leaders and theologians, this might be true, but with many Moslems I am not so sure. My daughter was upset yesterday because our neighbours' children had told her: "We don't like your Pope so we don't like you." In Britain, relations between the Catholic church and Moslems have been pretty good, possibly because many of the things said about Islam were recently said about Catholicism:
it is a foreign religion
they seek to undermine our culture and convert the country to their religion
they support terrorists
their religious leaders do not condemn terrorists enough.
Now, those relations will take a knock.
Whilst I blame mainly Pope Benedict for his loose talk, and the leader of a world religion does have to be very careful about what he says, the controversy does through in to relief a problem I perceive with Islam: that it can't cope with criticism. It is all very well for Reenk to point out how offensive to Moslems criticism Mohammed is. Possibly we in the West don't understand, but you might expect Moslems to extend the same courtesy to other religious leaders. However, apparently it is OK for Salih Kapusuz to compare the Pope to Hitler. If Catholics had the same sensibilities some of us would be outside burning him in effigy.
09-17-2006, 09:28
Dâriûsh
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
Next time he better praise Osama Bin Laden. I mean, we wouldn't want the mob to firebomb more churches in Nablus.
:juggle2:
09-17-2006, 09:51
lancelot
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAUDI ARAB NEWS
It is true that Catholicism over the centuries has had an uneasy relationship with Islam, as it has with Judaism and Protestantism. But in recent years, especially under the reign of John Paul II, the relations between the Vatican and the Muslim world have improved considerably through interfaith dialogue. It would indeed be unfortunate if Pope Benedict XVI's comments this week...signal a departure from his late predecessor's interfaith vision. Similarly, it would be unfortunate if the Muslim world over-reacts to this faux pas in a wave of emotion, or worse, as we saw with some of the responses to deeply offensive anti-Islamic cartoons earlier this year...
Perhaps the best response is for the Muslim world to rise above the occasion. Those who are calling for the cancellation of the Pope's visit to Turkey in November this year - his first official visit to a Muslim country - are simply misguided and wrong...In a post-9/11 world, the terminology of faith has unfortunately regressed on all sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TURKEY'S DAILY NEWS
We fully agree with religious affairs directorate chief, Ali Bardakoglu, that the remarks of the Pope were "extraordinarily worrying, saddening and unfortunate" and could offend any Muslim anywhere around the globe. But we just disagree with this vendetta-like approach of continuing to abuse the Pope after his spokesman made a statement saying that he respected Islam and did not intend to offend Muslims but just wanted to express his opposition to violence in religion...The example cited by the Pope was wrong, all right. But for God's sake, as rational people we must try to read in between the lines of the subsequent Vatican statement as well and realise how sorry the head of the Catholic Church is about the mess he created. We have more than sufficient tensions between cultures. We should try to avoid a new one.
These seem like well reasoned intelligent responses.
Quote:
"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence," - Pakistan Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam.
Im sure women around the world agree... :wall:
What a twit...
09-17-2006, 12:11
AntiochusIII
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
It's the Pakistani military government, lancelot; surely that would explain just about everything?
What bloody government would pass a chance to rile up its population in a classic "external enemy" situation? His Excellency, for all the erudite rhetoric and argumentation, had been very foolish to step onto this trap by the mere mentioning of Islam. It's really not that different from the flag-waving patriots-on-podiums we have over here called politicians. Didn't Rumsfeld basically said another day that anyone opposing the Administration's foreign policies are Nazi-appeasing monkeys?
That and crowds are, by some weird bending of the laws of humanity, dumb, ignorant, and painfully hard to reason with, be they Muslims or not. So it's no surprise there's a lot of protests-without-actual-knowledge going on.
09-17-2006, 13:13
caravel
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
As I understand it the Pope, not too subtly, quoted the words of the Byzantine Emperor Manual II Paleologos when he stated:
Quote:
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Good of the pope to bring that one up. He's great at ressurecting those timeless old quotes isn't he? They say the old ones are the best though.
It seems to me, yet again to be a gross overreaction to a quoted statement, by a minority of the somewhat overzealous, that always seem to end up on TV news carrying 'beheading' placards and screaming out various abusive rants. Not exactly the worlds islamic population as a whole though are they? A bit like those 'gentlemen' that posed for the 'pulling down of saddam statue' movie clip after the 'end' of the second Iraq invasion.
The, shall we say, 'excessive' demonstrations here are those of the minority fanatic, as usual. The outrage is that of the religious leaders and others, they're not all out burning their bedclothes wrapped around a broom handle as an effigy of el papa, while shooting a few hundred round from an AK47 in the general direction of god.
Regarding the "behead those who insult islam" photoshopped image. I pointed out it was fake and gave the true quote to see the reactions. As usual a few people came up with the, "is that any better?!" type response. Of course it's not any better. This type of lunatic (and coward) behind such messages should be arrested and kicked out of the UK. He's no good to this country and no good to muslims as a whole either. It is ridiculous to typcast all muslims as the same as this one individual. Yes there is an extremism issue, but ask yourselves who is it that has contributed in such a big way into gaining more supporters for such fanatics? Tranforming them from small groups of insignifcants into powerful organisations with political and military clout, coupled with international sympathisers and support.
09-17-2006, 15:54
KukriKhan
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
What strikes me (as a side issue) is the speed with which this story and the reaction to it, has spread.
-Speech/lecture delivered on Tuesday, 12 Sept.
-I read about it on Google news Wednesday, 13 Sept. (and I wonder what org backroomers will think of this).
-By Thursday, 14 Sept, parliaments are demanding apologies, and crowds are assembled to protest.
-Friday, 15 Sept, don corleone starts this thread. The Pope's PR guy explains his remarks, stopping short of an apology.
I mean, "angry muslim crowds" are assembled and photographed in less than 48 hours; entire governments are moved to pass condemnatory resolutions in less than 2 days... it's amazing how quickly negative reaction can be generated - and during a work-week.
Whereas, coming to the defense of his holiness, 5 days later, I read A. Merkel saying to Bild "he was misunderstood", and the Swiss FM saying "he was right".
For the West's supposed mastery of media manipulation, I gotta give first prize to the trans-national muslim "nation" for their ability to communicate, disseminate, and act on a story, with bonus points for their ability to mobilize large amounts of people in such a sort amount of time.
09-17-2006, 16:24
Patriarch of Constantinople
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
You know the pope really shouldnt have called Islam a violent religion. I hope he learned about THE CRUSADES, and read the Old Testament.
09-17-2006, 16:51
Duke Malcolm
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal99
You know the pope really shouldnt have called Islam a violent religion. I hope he learned about THE CRUSADES, and read the Old Testament.
Aagh! He didn't call Islam a violent religion! He quoted a long dead chap who did call Islam a violent religion. Since no news service (from those I have seen) gives the entire transcript of his speech, which happened to be on Holy Wars and such like. He did not say he agrees with the quote, or that there may be truth in it. When a cardinal explained this, people still complained. His Holiness didn't have anything to apologise for. Though I can't help but wonder if some dubious islamic clerics had a hand in creating this uproar just as they did with the cartoon affair...
I wonder if any muslim chaps shall apologise for the beseiging of countless christian (the majority of which were not catholic) churches after the affair.
Since it was a speech on Holy Wars, and since he is the chap in charge of the Catholic Church, I'm sure he has heard all about the Crusades, and the Old Testament. (and I might add that the majority of Christian teaching is from the New Testament, and New T. trumps Old T.)
09-17-2006, 17:28
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal99
You know the pope really shouldnt have called Islam a violent religion. I hope he learned about THE CRUSADES, and read the Old Testament.
Question; did the crusades come before or after Muslims armies rampaged up into France through Spain, and were trying to bring down the Byzantine empire?
Or do the actions of Charles Martel mean Catholicism is violent?
And, as Malcom pointed out, he did not call them violent. But they are proving, in large part, the truth of his words by their reactions.
A less out of context quote of the Pope's speech:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
In the seventh conversation edited by Professor Khoury,
the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that
surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts,
this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and
under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and
recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as
the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels",
he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about
the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what
Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and
inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The
emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the
reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable.
Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he
says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (F×< 8`(T) is contrary to
God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to
faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and
threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons
of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".
Crazed Rabbit
09-17-2006, 17:54
Ser Clegane
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
in large part
Why "in large part"?
09-17-2006, 18:16
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
By that I mean the reaction and sentiment against the Pope by a large part of Muslims.
Crazed Rabbit
09-17-2006, 18:44
Patriarch of Constantinople
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Question; did the crusades come before or after Muslims armies rampaged up into France through Spain, and were trying to bring down the Byzantine empire?Crazed Rabbit
Did the muslims continue invading france after they lost it? Probably not.
The catholics, on the other hand, attacked the muslims in their "holy war" 9 times. Yes nine crusades all against one religion.
09-17-2006, 18:59
Ser Clegane
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
By that I mean the reaction and sentiment against the Pope by a large part of Muslims.
Hmm ... how do you know that the kneejerk-reactions represent a "large part of muslims"?
09-17-2006, 19:33
ajaxfetish
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal99
Did the muslims continue invading france after they lost it? Probably not.
The catholics, on the other hand, attacked the muslims in their "holy war" 9 times. Yes nine crusades all against one religion.
I think saying 'nine crusades all against one religion' is simplifying the situation a lot. The purpose of the crusades was not to destroy Islam, or to convert Muslims. Of course their were numerous reasons behind them, and different ones for different crusaders, but the central purpose was to take political control of Jerusalem (a city that had been Jewish and Christian before it was Muslim, and still with plenty of Jewish or Christian inhabitants), and to make it safe for Christian pilgrims. They were not attacks against a religion, but a fight over a piece of land.
And while the invasion of France ended in Carolingian times, the battering against the eastern bulwark of Christianity at Constantinople continued for centuries until it was finally reduced, and an invasion of Eastern Europe as far as Austria followed.
The point is, both Christians and Muslims practiced aggression on each other over their histories. I'd say the reasons were usually more political than religious, though religion often provided the fervor to carry them through.
Ajax
09-17-2006, 19:34
Navaros
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
Quote:
Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
Maybe if there were not people in the world like the Pope who incite anti-Muslim hatred amongst billions of people via things like what he said in the speech, then Islam would be a lot more peaceful.
09-17-2006, 19:42
King Henry V
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal99
Did the muslims continue invading france after they lost it? Probably not.
The catholics, on the other hand, attacked the muslims in their "holy war" 9 times. Yes nine crusades all against one religion.
I'm sure they would have done so had they not been beaten back by the Carolingians and not begun their decline in Spain.
09-17-2006, 19:44
King Henry V
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Maybe if there were not people in the world like the Pope who incite anti-Muslim hatred amongst billions of people via things like what he said in the speech, then Islam would be a lot more peaceful.
If someone said that Christians were intolerant warmongers, do you think there would be the same reaction?
09-17-2006, 19:45
Conradus
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal99
Did the muslims continue invading france after they lost it? Probably not.
The catholics, on the other hand, attacked the muslims in their "holy war" 9 times. Yes nine crusades all against one religion.
The muslims still possessed a part of france in the 9-10th century
(Fraxinetum) and raided most of Burgundy in that period.
And they attacked the ERE for more then 700 years, yes 700 years against one religion...
09-17-2006, 19:56
Navaros
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester
apparently it is OK for Salih Kapusuz to compare the Pope to Hitler.
Actually considering the fact that the Pope is a former Nazi and possibly now a closet-Nazi, that comparison is extremely apt.
09-17-2006, 20:11
AntiochusIII
Re: Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peacefu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conradus
The muslims still possessed a part of france in the 9-10th century
(Fraxinetum) and raided most of Burgundy in that period.
And they attacked the ERE for more then 700 years, yes 700 years against one religion...
Confusing political expansions and the general warfare by ambitious warlords looking to get more powerful with genuine (and genuinely disturbing) Holy Wars isn't quite correct.
The Turks certainly weren't that religious-driven for trying to build an Empire upon the ruins of Byzantium as is being portrayed here, even for the average soldier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Actually considering the fact that the Pope is a former Nazi and possibly now a closet-Nazi, that comparison is extremely apt.
Why are you accepting that insult to God's vizier on Earth so easily just like that, hmm?