Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by Idomeneas
Turkey did genocide the Pontics, Armenians and Greeks of Asia Minor.
That is very good; after Armenians now people claims Turks did genocide Greeks too.
I am not the kind of Turk, who stubbornly refuses the Turks committed any crimes. But this is becoming absurd. Every civilian death during the war is trying to be shown as proof of a genocide. If that is true, we must also consider Turkish civilians who died during the war. How did millions of Turks die? Do you think all of them were soldiers dying in battle maybe? Anyone claiming the Turks did genocide Greeks should accept that Greeks did genocide Turks too. I think neither of these statements is true. There is a distinction between a genocide and civilian casualties during a war.
Everyone should criticise his own nation, before looking at others.
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Originally Posted by Papewaio
Why not make friends? Australia and Turkey seem to be on speaking terms and they are on opposite sides of the globe. Yet it was Aussies and Kiwis along with Brits landing on the beaches of Turkey and charging up the cliffs to meet Attaturk
Do you think that is likely to happen, when historical bloodfeuds are brought to modern political platforms?
Unlike LEN, I am a supporter of EU. But every time something like the Armenian issue is brought up, it is the conservatives in Turkey who gain, not the liberals.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
Why bring up events from before most the population were even born? Not like anything can be done about it, and nothing people who weren't even alive yet could have done.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
BDC, the insult is still being added to the injury indefinitely.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by BDC
Why bring up events from before most the population were even born? Not like anything can be done about it, and nothing people who weren't even alive yet could have done.
Unless this was a rhetorical question, I'll try to answer it. I think the issue is one of historical accuracy. You know, did a certain thing happen or not ?
I've always found it extremely interesting to confront the history I've learnt 20 years ago, with the history people from other countries learnt, and the history that people are learning nowadays.
More or less each country is re-writing their history: some only slightly rephrase things, other completely omit or invent events.
It is obviously a matter of national pride to have things one way or another, i.e. to have it known by everybody that certain events took place or they did not take place.
I think that's the gist of the matter, and of course nothing can be done about it now.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
I belive most people find the non-acceptance of proven fact most insulting most of the time.
Thus I see no end to this until Turkey deos accept the fact.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Well that replay says it all and most people here can understand why people that share views as the one you openly state here have long way to go till reach the lands of civilization.
In Greece even if people disagree with you you would be able to make statements as the ones you make in the biggest national tv channel and then walk home without anybody touch a hair from your head. I wonder if a greek could do the same in your country. If i judge from the reactions nice groups like grey wolves which have a tendency to beat people to death, writers that try to escape with their lives and a policy of handdling and poisoning the masses against enemies and dreams of empires in order to not think that they live in absolute poverty, i think not. Propably he would have to be searched in city morgue.
I now know how civilized you are after making generalizations. Sorry, this is typical ByzantinePrince approach -I don't want to generalize it over all Greeks, you know you don't like it -you are civilized.
Grey wolves are grey wolves. You don't know that grey wolves are not the sole power raging the streets of Turkey, nor that they have any political power or something anymore. I'm not one of them, actually hating them. Poor choice to debate with me. Press 9 now.
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So give all the answers you want. Write even a book with science fiction. Its all the same to the world.
Armenian fiction is science fiction if you really want to know.. Why do I need to write a book as long as you have a mind like the Grey Wolves. I've seen copies like these statements of yours times before. yours is not something new -so is not worth an answer. But here is how you are similar to the Grey Wolves. See your weakness? Get over it.
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And for the end. EU never asked Turkey to join. Turkey did asked to be let in so how can it impose rules that is the most irrational thing and it is becomming boring too. Alot have to change till then...
I did not ask for it. More than the half of this country did not ask for it. So before treating like the landlords of your puny mansion with those high noses, get civilized, Mr. Civilization.
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Why not make friends? Australia and Turkey seem to be on speaking terms and they are on opposite sides of the globe. Yet it was Aussies and Kiwis along with Brits landing on the beaches of Turkey and charging up the cliffs to meet Attaturk.
Sorry, all Anzacs were tools exploited from the Imperialistic Great Britain's colonies. Please try differentiating the apples from pears, dear Pape. Those big daddies are apples but I don't see Aussies or other Anzacs as apples as well. Maybe it's my fault to be looking as if I hate it all out there.
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I agree with Pape. I mean this in the least critical way possible, LEN, but you have to stop thinking about the past and how to fix the past. One has to focus on healing all wounds, foreign and domestic so that one may unite with the people that feel (not I said feel, I am, as the party you seem to think is your enemy, trying to look from your point of view) offended and acheive great things for all your respective nations. I assume your a history interested person, so I assume you have read about the pre 19th-20th century Islamic/Turkic--Armenian relations were great (Greeks, not so much, but that side is for a Greek to post about). You were looking for merceneries, and would prefer people of the book, and for a little less than 100 years we answered your call. We were treated well too. That is how things should be, minus the war on Europe (in Borat voice) that...not so much.
Why not starting telling this to your nation youself, IA :
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So, could we not call the Armenians killing Turks a genocide, and the Turks killing Armenians Genocides at the same time? I beleive so, and this stubborn bastard just changed his views. (Me obviously)
Do Armenians have the guts to confess their murders on Turkish nation that were started by Caucasian Armenians fed by the Russian, then those fed by France after the invasion? Do you really have the guts to?
No way. Why spoil a plan while it's going full throttle to your advantage? Politics is the art of the powerful not the rightful. So as long as you are crying under big brothers' arms, I do not expect such thing. Because Armenians in Turkey are still leaving peacefully -as they did before their murders on Turks.
Oh by the way, Hrant Dink, who wrote "..that poisonous blood that will spill out of the Turk.." in his Istanbul publish newspaper Agos and is under a trial because of these words can join a program on TV, and talk about what Frenchies did. Are you around, Civilized Son of Zeus?
Edit: We had had a nice discussion here, Civilization Tutor Idomenas, if you'd like to.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
I Am Not European
I need this title. Turkey is not European. Nor do I love those medieval guys in modern day clothes (yeah they are hell medieval), nor do they have a drop of friendship towards Turkey. Here ends the preface. Now:
What's The Reality ?
The reality derives from the death of 514.000 Turks, committed by primarily Caucasian Armenians who were provocated by Russia and France. This is not a baseless accusation. One should be deaf and blind not to know the invasion of France and Russia all throughout Eastern and Southeastern Anatolia. That is the pure piece of information confirmed by a Turkish Armenian (you can feel Turkish since you are living and committed to this country) named Levon Panos Dabağyan in a recent TV program.
The relocation process, in the weakest time of the government caused some murderous situations. Epidemic (2 million Muslims were lost during the same epidemic) , the avenging Turks and Kurds caused some serious loss among the Armenian populace. It is the dumbest scenario on earth imagining that "millet-i sadıka" were exposed to systemic ethnic cleansing -modernly terminologized as "genocide"- by Ottoman government in its weakest time.
I think it's also my duty to tell that Dabağyan was calling for the Turkish governtment's recent ignorance towards the Armenian society living in Turkey. "We love this country. We are happy here. Why turn your back to us because of a lie told by Armenians abroad?". The old man is a historian who asked for at least a 20-minutes of broadcast on TV, to tell the truth to his own people, because he thinks they are highly manipulated.
What's The Lie ?
Get a google. It will tell you so many. They even dared to use an artist's painting illustrating a tiny hill of skulls as the photo of the genocide. The artist had died 60 years ago before the so called genocide had taken place. It was not even a photo, it was a man crafted painting. That's how a lie can b ebuilt, if you need someday, copy it.
Where Are We Now ?
France -the self-proclaimed cradle of liberty and freedom of expression- is attempting to legislate that people who deny Armenian Genocide will be sentenced to one year of imprisonment and a fine of up to 45.000 Euros.
The very self-contradiction of self-proclaimed democratic genius is left to brains having enough ability to distinguish between a coconut and a howitzer.
Why did this happen ?
Because Turks are lazy asses. If Ataturk was alive, he would spit on all our faces. Let alone following and improving his principles, we are unable to tell people what this whole mess is about. Instead we prefer watching our cable, getting pumped up by crap TV series like Valley of The Wolves and remember the pride of our nation only after national football team's matches. We prefer screwing each other while being opiumed by imported lifestyles from abroad.
Why did France act so ?
Kurd card is in USA 's hands. And after losing it, France made a quick step forward to gain the favor of the Armenians. History is not only something to read. Tools and their blacksmiths get along with each other very well. It is left to us to be screwed. This is even more disgusting while your streets are burning with rage due to the immigrants you have.
What's next ?
If we happen so unfortunate to adopt this lie invented, next stage of play is the compensation part. No one can make me believe that it will only be a matter of wordly apologize. Even that bugger called Hrant Dink said taht there are Armenians looking for that. Although it is dumb to think that they will be compensated, this will be obliged to us next time. Some European officials say "a game's rules can not be changed during gameplay" but who cares..There is another 80 year-old sick man in front of you, why wait?
I'll put this simple. I-hate-European-Union.
I did not do anything inhumane in the past, I did not want this EU thing, and it is clear that I'm not European 'cause I don't want to be with people that hate me already, why pushing yourself that way, are we teddybears looking for love?
Finally, how can you earn a lot of money?
Call your nation being the murderers of 1 million Armenians and 300.000 Kurds. They'll get you a Nobel prize.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
I'll put this simple. I-hate-European-Union.
I did not do anything inhumane in the past, I did not want this EU thing, and it is clear that I'm not European 'cause I don't want to be with people that hate me already, why pushing yourself that way, are we teddybears looking for love?
Ya, don't even bother, the EU is looking for a muslim pet now that black buttlers aren't fashionable anymore. Let's not pretend that Turkey is an european country, friends yes but no family. This whole armenian issue is bull anyway, not because it didn't happen but why judge Turkey on something that happened when Turkey wasn't even Turkey. If the reluctance to discuss this issue, whatever the stance one takes, is such a big deal in Turkey, well pro-Turkey guys, that is what you want in the EU. A completily different culture, mixing cultures have been such a succes on national levels, why not make the disaster even greater huh.
I don't get it, we don't want it, the majority turkish people don't want it, yet the multicultists just keep going and going. Just leave us be.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by Fragony
Ya, don't even bother, the EU is looking for a muslim pet now that black buttlers aren't fashionable anymore. Let's not pretend that Turkey is an european country, friends yes but no family. This whole armenian issue is bull anyway, not because it didn't happen but why judge Turkey on something that happened when Turkey wasn't even Turkey. If the reluctance to discuss this issue, whatever the stance one takes, is such a big deal in Turkey, well pro-Turkey guys, that is what you want in the EU. A completily different culture, mixing cultures have been such a succes on national levels, why not make the disaster even greater huh.
I don't get it, we don't want it, the majority turkish people don't want it, yet the multicultists just keep going and going. Just leave us be.
Ottomans are counted a Turkish state. I see no reason to dodge the issue like that, because even if I do not accept it, if it is accepted by the government someday, Turkey will pay for the consequences which are totally BS.
One more thing. I'll print out this post of yours and hang it on the wall, 'cause we can't agree any better than this, Frag. ~:)
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Ottomans are counted a Turkish state. I see no reason to dodge the issue like that, because even if I do not accept it, if it is accepted by the government someday, Turkey will pay for the consequences which are totally BS.
One more thing. I'll print out this post of yours and hang it on the wall, 'cause we can't agree any better than this, Frag. ~:)
Glad you agree, nationalism is a good thing, to respect differences one needs a little distance, otherwise these differences just annoy the crap out of you. Pyramids are great things but that doesn't mean I want one thrown on my lap.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
The reality derives from the death of 514.000 Turks, committed by primarily Caucasian Armenians who were provocated by Russia and France.
514.000 Turks? Please, I've seen you make this claim before in the monastery debating against some Greek members. I'm not knowledgable enough about the figures but you state it as if it's fact.
Not saying there weren't any, there were probably many, but 514.000 reeks of fantasy, and an attempt to rationalise the massacre- as if hundreds of thousends of Armenians suddenly decided overnight to assault their muslim neighbours :dizzy2:
Armenians were massacred, but the label "genocide" is out of it's place IMO. Armenians were forced to march and of course the Ottoman officials who ordered it couldn't care less if a good portion of them didn't make it, that doesn't make it a coordinated effort to wipe out a nation. Besides the Ottoman empire was in a state of dissolution, so I don't think we can really say it was government sactioned...but the deaths are there, and that many Turks still vigourously try to underplay the death toll is disgusting.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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514.000 Turks? Please, I've seen you make this claim before in the monastery debating against some Greek members. I'm not knowledgable enough about the figures but you state it as if it's fact.
Ottoman archives claim the numbers, not me. It's also quite impossible to understand why a number ranging from 1 million to 2 million deaths among ARmenians does not sound fantasy to you. Are you all well told about this? I guess this is why Armenian Genocide believers repel the idea of the discussion. "Admit!" is all they say, why "a lie" part is concealed.
Armenian neigbours were Turks as well. Why did they decide on murders? Who told you this happened all of a sudden over night. The murders start with the Russian invasion in the late 1800's. Please don't jump to conclusions, instead ask.
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Armenians were massacred, but the label "genocide" is out of it's place IMO. Armenians were forced to march and of course the Ottoman officials who ordered it couldn't care less if a good portion of them didn't make it, that doesn't make it a coordinated effort to wipe out a nation. Besides the Ottoman empire was in a state of dissolution, so I don't think we can really say it was government sactioned...but the deaths are there, and that many Turks still vigourously try to underplay the death toll is disgusting.
Turks were massacred, but the label genocide is out of place IMO. Turks were forced to revenge after the ongoing assaults, rapes and murders starting in the late 1800's. Nah, "millet-i sadıka" (loyal nation) did not wake up berserk one day. They were well "processed" by the Russians and the French for years by dividing them into religious sects such as Catholics, Protestans and Orthodox and the promise of independecy and domination over those lands. Besides the Ottoman empire was in a state of dissolution, they were not able to oppress the rebellion and the murders there, let alone planning a systematic ethnic cleansing of Armenians -called genocide. But the deaths are there, and that many foreigners who love the idea of "Barbarian Turks did not hesitate to massacre 356 billion Armenians without a cause" and still vigourously try to force a nation to admit a lie that is never discussed among historians, only so-called proofs carried away by Armenian immigrants.
Kiss me EU, Hug me US, Jump Up France, Don't Cry For Me Argentina. (Yes, quite pointless but even Argentina has a law accepting the Armenian Genocide)
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
Hmmm it's weren't just the armenians, we just call everyone from that region Armenians. All the ones killed happened to be christians, and the armenians are just one of the lucky few, what about the aremenians, who never did anything, or the Greeks, basicly it just wasn't a very nice thing to do. Calling it revenge just won't do, that would excuse the serbs for killing thousands of muslims, excuse the poles for killing thousands of germans, and it would excuse Israel if they decide to nuke Berlin. I don't see why this has to be such a big issue though, so people got killed a century ago, can't wait for the movie.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Ottoman archives claim the numbers, not me.
Nevertheless you cite them, implying that you see them as reliable.
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It's also quite impossible to understand why a number ranging from 1 million to 2 million deaths among ARmenians does not sound fantasy to you. Are you all well told about this? I guess this is why Armenian Genocide believers repel the idea of the discussion. "Admit!" is all they say, why "a lie" part is concealed.
I'm not an academic on this issue, and I guess that neither are you. I think that it should be possible to rationally investigate and discuss the issue, wich is why I'm against laws that prohibit denial.
Now in France this law failed to pass- but similar laws, but to the opposite effect are being enforced in Turkey.
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Armenian neigbours were Turks as well. Why did they decide on murders? Who told you this happened all of a sudden over night. The murders start with the Russian invasion in the late 1800's. Please don't jump to conclusions, instead ask.
I don't know enough about the late Ottoman empire to challenge your assertion, but a few Armenian seperatists committing random acts of violence over a period of 2 or 3 decades isn't in the same league as force marching millions with little food across the desert, resulting in the death of 500.000 - 1.000.000, most of who had nothing to do with earlier violence.
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Turks were massacred, but the label genocide is out of place IMO. Turks were forced to revenge after the ongoing assaults, rapes and murders starting in the late 1800's. Nah, "millet-i sadıka" (loyal nation) did not wake up berserk one day. They were well "processed" by the Russians and the French for years by dividing them into religious sects such as Catholics, Protestans and Orthodox and the promise of independecy and domination over those lands.
So the "loyal nation" was not content living under a despotic government, I won't blame them. The Armenian massacre was a desperate act of a dying empire to keep what it saw as "theirs", the Ottoman empire should have died an inglorious death decades before that. I'm not condoning violence from the Armenians, but they were acts of people who wanted to be independent, and suddenly the state is "forced to revenge"? Nobody is forced to revenge, and state officials should know better. Even if your number of 500.000 Turks killed is accurate it still doesn't justify the killing of 500.000 - 1.000.000 people, most of wich had nothing to do with the violence.
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Besides the Ottoman empire was in a state of dissolution, they were not able to oppress the rebellion and the murders there, let alone planning a systematic ethnic cleansing of Armenians -called genocide.
So if you can't supress seperatist movements, mass murder is an acceptable solution? They should have let the Armenians have their country. I already say that I don't agree with the term "Armenian genocide" but you can't deny there was state involvement when the Armenians were forced to march with far to little food and supplies. And some people dismiss these deaths as accidental :wall:
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Sorry, all Anzacs were tools exploited from the Imperialistic Great Britain's colonies. Please try differentiating the apples from pears, dear Pape. Those big daddies are apples but I don't see Aussies or other Anzacs as apples as well. Maybe it's my fault to be looking as if I hate it all out there.
The current governments and their peoples are not the ones that were involved almost a hundred years ago. Why not let go of the hatreds of the past and aim for the prosperity of the future.
There are very few countries in the world that haven't got a history that involves bloodshed. It is better to see those histories, learn from them and move on.
Holding onto the past to spite the future is not wise.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
I'll put this simple. I-hate-European-Union.
And apparentley Armenians. I just want to know why.
Also, let us not forget about the Hamidian massacres... Was that the "revenge" you speak of? And for what, The Turkic-Armenian War? Can't you see, this is like the Palestinians saying that the Holocaust was fake. It is purely defamatory and obviously false.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by Kralizec
Nevertheless you cite them, implying that you see them as reliable.
I'm not an academic on this issue, and I guess that neither are you. I think that it should be possible to rationally investigate and discuss the issue, wich is why I'm against laws that prohibit denial.
Now in France this law failed to pass- but similar laws, but to the opposite effect are being enforced in Turkey.
I don't know enough about the late Ottoman empire to challenge your assertion, but a few Armenian seperatists committing random acts of violence over a period of 2 or 3 decades isn't in the same league as force marching millions with little food across the desert, resulting in the death of 500.000 - 1.000.000, most of who had nothing to do with earlier violence.
So the "loyal nation" was not content living under a despotic government, I won't blame them. The Armenian massacre was a desperate act of a dying empire to keep what it saw as "theirs", the Ottoman empire should have died an inglorious death decades before that. I'm not condoning violence from the Armenians, but they were acts of people who wanted to be independent, and suddenly the state is "forced to revenge"? Nobody is forced to revenge, and state officials should know better. Even if your number of 500.000 Turks killed is accurate it still doesn't justify the killing of 500.000 - 1.000.000 people, most of wich had nothing to do with the violence.
So if you can't supress seperatist movements, mass murder is an acceptable solution? They should have let the Armenians have their country. I already say that I don't agree with the term "Armenian genocide" but you can't deny there was state involvement when the Armenians were forced to march with far to little food and supplies. And some people dismiss these deaths as accidental :wall:
I think the issue at heart here is that having a view on history should not be illegal. Whether the Ottomans or the Armenians started it is really wholly irrelevant. The Ottoman state is no more modern Turkey than the Third Reich is modern Germany. There is no reason that Turkey should be held reprehensible for the deaths of the Armenians than the Germans should be held responsible for the deaths of the substantial number of Jews they killed.
On the history of it.
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force marching millions with little food across the desert, resulting in the death of 500.000 - 1.000.000
I don't think that constitutes a genocide. It isn't aiming to wipe out the Armenian people. i also hardly think that proves the deaths were deliberate. If they wanted to kill off these millions of Armenians, it would have been much cheaper to round them up and gun them down.
Why do you seem to suggest that wanting to be indepedent makes it right to kill someone, while wanting to retain control of an area and stop the frequent murders of your people does not?
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Originally Posted by Papewaio
Holding onto the past to spite the future is not wise.
Preach on!
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Why do you seem to suggest that wanting to be indepedent makes it right to kill someone while wanting to retain control of an area and stop the frequent murders of your people does not?
I don't think my post implied that, at any rate I didn't mean it to.
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I think the issue at heart here is that having a view on history should not be illegal.
Agreed, that's why I said so ~;)
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I don't think that constitutes a genocide. It isn't aiming to wipe out the Armenian people. i also hardly think that proves the deaths were deliberate. If they wanted to kill off these millions of Armenians, it would have been much cheaper to round them up and gun them down.
That depends on how you interpret "deliberately". They obviously didn't go out of their way trying to exterminate the Armenians, but that doesn't say it all.
Suppose I'm hunted by the police, and that I drive my car into a dead end street. I turn around and see a police officer blocking my path. I step up the gas and run him over.
I didn't have killing the officer as a goal in my mind, getting away was my goal. I just didn't care that I had to kill the officer to do it, I accepted it as a consequense of my actions. To me that is deliberate killing.
I already mentioned that I don't think it was a genocide.
Re: Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...
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Originally Posted by Orb
The Ottoman state is no more modern Turkey than the Third Reich is modern Germany.
Actually their relation is even less than modern Germany and Third Reich, as the nationalist Turkish government has fought against Ottoman government. The founders of modern Turkey were rebels from the perpective of Ottoman state.
